2002 Quicksilver fan cooling

[Ninester]

This was a $50 rescue Quicksilver pulled from a school in NOLA last month. I use it as an overkill bridge Mac for my Mac SE.  Both share with attached ZIP drives when needed using sneaker net. And to explore my old shareware.

The locked CPU fan was changed out at school, the locked up PS fan was discovered when dragged into garage for cleaning that night. Of course when I emailed back, all those fans were supposed to have been checked....right. The scary part is how long did they tortured the Mac without fans?

So cleaned PS/ box and changed out fan with a “like” fan from my toy box.  Three days later, I pulled heat sink to check up on paste, probably never done since 2002?

Please check attached pictures, are these normal or typical of neglect? (link on bottom)

I have been experimenting with fans, air direction, and now (!) dreaming of a water block for the CPU’s.

My PC “game builds” use positive ventilation all filtered, using four low speed fans. You forget it is there, nice dark box, no crappy bling.

My just re-pasted temps, using stock fan configuration, were 123F to 126F after 6 hours, measured two points on the CPU heat-sink. I used my Fluke temp probe for baseline CPU heat-sink “real time” readings. All measurements are in 70-73 F room. Probe was in contact on bottom of heatsink, out of airflow.

What is “normal” CPU temps and how are you guys measuring and where? Distinct branding on palm of my hand comes to mind. I have never seen a new or like Quicksilver for heat or noise comparison.

After reversing CPU and 120mm side case fan, I now read 116F to 117.4 after 6 hours. The cpu fan, with sensor reading 100+ air, does run faster…and whines a bit more.

So, 120mm case fan pushes in cold air, low speed, assisting PS and CPU fans blowing heat to the outside. I am considering a new CPU fan and a second 120mm fan, bottom of case, for positive ventilation.  On the other hand, placing Mac in big tank of Flourinert for bubble show?

My $10 ATI 9000 runs much cooler in reversed fan configuration; to very warm stock fans.

Attached, with pictures, is a movie sound clip for this quicksilver.   

All comments welcome, thanks for reading!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Btj37CFBeN4U3vlmR3oG5GuPGoUeIRo5?usp=sharing

[DieHard]

OK... a picture is worth 1000 words and you pics unfortunately tell a novel of an abused computer that I am amazed works at all;  I don't know which looks scarier the corrosion on the CPU daughter board or the heat damage.  None of what you posted is typical.  You will need to carefully examine the main logic board for heat damage also.  i doubt that machine will run trouble- free in it's current condition.  No amount of Acrtic silver will reverse this type of damage and neglect.  The previous owner should be arrested for Mac abuse.  I Personally think, you will be better writing this particular unit off.  Also, If you re-arctic silver one in good shape and the foil heat pads are damaged on the heatsink, just remove them altogether and clean the bare metal.

[macStuff]

hmm looks pretty screwed up!
but cant he just replace the cpu module?
to me looks like most damage is on the cpu module itself..

is this a dual 1ghz?
or a dual 800mhz?

ive had my eye out for a dual 1ghz but i never seem to see any

[Ninester]

I'm calling the Mac police on Xavier IT in N'wlins!

I have run Apple HT, X-bench 1.3, maxed out chess game and several other apps during last two weeks. I can't get it to crash or lock up..at least not yet.  As I wrote Mr. deBongo, this should be a tribute to Motorola?  This is the dual 1G CPU board.

I did alcohol scrub both surfaces to remove much more than picture shows. I did notice the heat sink felt warmer after re-paste. This is when I got off duff to take baseline temps, 124F.
When I picked up Mac at Xavier, I noticed the CPU heat sink was very hot. When the seller yanked hand away I noticed CPU fan was not running.  The Mac bit him 

This is a $50 lesson on "know your seller" but this or the $100+ ebay shipping?  If this old beater gives it up we can have a Jazz funeral?  Parts will be donated here.

M

[FdB]

Most certainly a testament to how some "takes a licking but keeps on ticking".
Herein, und perhaps afterwards... should probably be referred to as the now
infamous "Timex Quicksilver". Ab-so-freakin' amazing that it's still functions!
Same model here "on the bench" to simulate (sans tell-tale heat signature)
operational characteristics for comparison... unless someone here
has those specifics right on the tips of their very fingers.

I did see a 1GHz dual QS CPU on eBay yesterday
(of course, I think it was $69.00).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-PowerMac-G4-Quicksilver-820-1310-A-1GB-Dual-Processor-CPU/253474152116?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Now states "ended" but there's also a note that says seller to return on May 7th(?).

Ninester, I've written another short book for you... soon to arrive via PM.
Thusly, Jazz Funeral on hold perhaps... for now.

And, so very glad the Professor "got bit"!

*Kudos to McStuff for embedding that CPU pic here for future reference.
Maybe the beginning of an album containing real horror-show images.
MOS+ (exploding ATX PSUs to be included)?

[DieHard]

hmm looks pretty screwed up!
but cant he just replace the cpu module?
to me looks like most damage is on the cpu module itself..

I thought that originally, but there are signs (look at Ceramic w/coil) on the Daughter board that shows baking / heat damage, the color of the copper around the coil is a dead giveway, it's gets a "rainbow" type pattern, like when you blow-torch copper, I am guessing that the logic board area under the CPU board it pretty FUBAR, but the mother board really needs to be pulled and examined

[FdB]

Well, yes… BUT... the machine has been running “stable” for many hours on end… albeit slightly hotter than a similar QS here. Tomorrow should Now have comparison Xbench test results to check performance and determine whether or not a new CPU Daughterboard… and/or… a new motherboard might also possibly be “on the horizon”.

IF, the thing just runs a bit hotter… but still has similar performance values… why not keep current backups and spend $$$ only when one really must? Maybe run Xbench test weekly to monitor for any deterioration? In the meantime, consider a new CPU?

*But yes, I’d also like to see underneath that Daughterboard. AHT says all a-ok. Xbench says “some differences”.

Biggest differences seem to be under Disk Test section. Slower vs. faster drive?

[FdB]

Sorry, bumping my own post.

Anyone else using a similar 1GHz Quicksilver with 1.5GB of RAM willing to do a quick and easy download and run of Xbench ( available from: http://www.xbench.com ) and then provide your results? Xbench’s “comparison” site is now unavailable. I ran it under OS 10.3.9 and then again with OS 10.4.11. to compare it with Ninester’s results. Suppose that even an 800MHz dual QS running 10.4.11 or even 10.3.9 would yield comparable "relative" results.

Thanks.

[FdB]

And again, bump...

Xbench 1.3 results from Dan Knight / lowendmac.com notes results for a “Mirrored Drive Doors” Power Mac G4 / MDD Power Mac G4/1 GHz Dual… not all that different from Ninester’s results running under various versions of OS X. I am puzzled by the column heading of 3/6/09 (my guess is that it’s supposed to be OX 10.5?) when other columns note specific versions of OSX. Ninester and I both ran Xbench under OS 10.4.11. (Yet probably at different bit-depth settings for monitors.)

Also, found an old version of MacBench 3.0 (from “Rescue/Repair and Install” disk download available here… and ran that). It took a very long time to complete all tasks/tests. Then located a version 5.0 of MacBench from MacRepository. Only caveat is that 5.0 uses a G3 300MHz as a baseline. It would be nice if a QS MacBench baseline file were available to compare. Still, useful for comparison between two different yet identical machines I suppose.

And, downloaded a 2.0 version of Geekbench and that (in it’s current DL form), would not run on the QS. Surely, (don’t call me Shirley) there’s a benchmark utility available that maybe we all could use for such relevant comparisons? C’mon with it, speak up.

Dan Knight’s benchmarks… http://lowendmac.com/benchmarks/power-mac-g4-1-ghz-dual.html

MacRepository’s MacBench 5.0… https://www.macintoshrepository.org/2337-macbench-5-0

Mactron’s Rescue/Repair & Install… http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3177.0.html

Attached image shows Dan Knight’s MDD 1GHz DP Xbench results set against Ninester’s and my results (via our lowly 1GHz DP Quicksilvers… both running OS 10.4.11). *MacBench runs under OS 9.2.2 (and earlier OS versions) AND early versions of OS X too. Most other pertinent benchmark utilities have seemingly vanished from the web. Got one you’d like to share?

[MacTron]

Os X benchmark results are not directly applicable to Mac Os 9, especially on dual CPUs systems.
For general speed I use MacBench 3.0, for Graphics test Cinebench 2003 and for System responsiveness L1KWindowsBlum.

[FdB]

Thanks Mactron! Saw L1KWindowsBlum mentioned elsewhere around here today and I shall find it!

FOUND IT!  Let1kWindowsBloom from/by Rob Terrell... http://www.vgg.com/rob/WindowsBloom.html
(Two versions, one for Carbon and one for Power PC-only.)

Quote from Rob Terrill: "The fact that people continue to download and run this app
shows me that (a) we need a decent comprehensive benchmarking app for OS X,
and (b) people continue to wish their Mac was faster."

There's also a copy of Let1kWindowsBloom on:
Mactron’s Rescue/Repair & Install… http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3177.0.html

[Ninester]

hmm looks pretty screwed up!
but cant he just replace the cpu module?
to me looks like most damage is on the cpu module itself..

I thought that originally, but there are signs (look at Ceramic w/coil) on the Daughter board that shows baking / heat damage, the color of the copper around the coil is a dead giveway, it's gets a "rainbow" type pattern, like when you blow-torch copper, I am guessing that the logic board area under the CPU board it pretty FUBAR, but the mother board really needs to be pulled and examined

Not sure if I'm looking at same coils but mine has the red glyptal coating that ends at the solder points on board. Strange that Apple would use the silver pads, on pc's I see direct contact to aluminum or copper heatsink for fan cooled CPUs. I would have loved to been the fly on the wall for Apple's G4 case design and R&D.

Where there any protection, shutdown, or other schemes used in these series for high heat?

Renamed my Mac to the 2002 Quicksilver Chernobyl edition... to honor one lazy IT department at Xavier University.

I mounted the old (replaced) CPU fan above CD drive to blow directly on the top half of heatsink when case is closed. I now see a quieter CPU running 114 F in a 70F room.  July, in NOLA, may change all that.

Thanks, M

[IIO]

i had an MDD where the fan of the PSU didnt work. the machine got so hot that after 8-10 minutes of operation it was shutting off.

you can run a computer without heatsink, or without heatsink fan on the CPU or on an older graphics card for while, but when the main fans of the case and/or the PSU isnt cooled, you can only use it to fry eggs.

[FdB]

...but when the main fans of the case and/or the PSU isnt cooled, you can only use it to fry eggs.

Thanks for the above, IIO. Think it's going to be interesting to see just
how long Ninester's QS does "go", before possibly needing a new CPU.

Per MacTron's mention, maybe MacBench 3.0 might also be ran?

And no, I've not yet had breakfast.

[IIO]

i believe that a CPU will survive overheating much longer than the harddrives do.

[macStuff]

Renamed my Mac to the 2002 Quicksilver Chernobyl edition... to honor one lazy IT department at Xavier University.

lol! 

[Ninester]

i had an MDD where the fan of the PSU didnt work. the machine got so hot that after 8-10 minutes of operation it was shutting off.

you can run a computer without heatsink, or without heatsink fan on the CPU or on an older graphics card for while, but when the main fans of the case and/or the PSU isnt cooled, you can only use it to fry eggs.

Lol, well thanks for not using the word "toast". In meantime I happy with the 114 F temps, keeps down the burned egg smell.

Cheers

[IIO]

the moment where i discovered that this computer was starting to become a chernobyl edition of itself was when i learned that. it is unbelievable how hot the harddrives are after only a few minutes - i could hardly touch them - at normal operation they have room temperature.

[FdB]

the moment where i discovered that this computer
was starting to become a chernobyl edition of itself
was when i learned that. it is unbelievable how hot
the harddrives are after only a few minutes -
i could hardly touch them - at normal operation
they have room temperature.

Just imagine how happy any of us would be,
if we hadn't checked the fans, etcetera...
on a machine acquired like Ninester's.

Might have a mobo and CPU for him...
on Wednesday or Thursday. 

Top drive in my QS hits a stable 100˚F pretty quickly.
And that's in a 64˚F room. (Not next to a 1.42 MDD)

[Ninester]

the moment where i discovered that this computer was starting to become a chernobyl edition of itself was when i learned that. it is unbelievable how hot the harddrives are after only a few minutes - i could hardly touch them - at normal operation they have room temperature.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-temperature-does-it-matter/

I try to keep all drives below 50c. I now run with 120mm case fan blowing in to assist both top PS/CPU blowing out, CPU fan turned around. The case fan keeps the drive and ATI heatsink more like Siberia.