Author Topic: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz  (Read 1278 times)

Offline darthnVader

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Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« on: March 31, 2018, 09:57:04 AM »
Quote
It turns out the G4 Mini has some issue with coherent vs. non-coherent LCD's and that my LCD needs a Pixel Clock of 146.25 MHz for 1680x1050 and the maximum the G4 Mini can do is 135 MHz. See:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/DeveloperNotes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/MacMiniG4/3Input-Output/chapter_4_section11.html

The doc linked seems to be gone, but I assume the info is good.

This explains why some of us are having issues with higher res DVI/HDMI displays.

I'm not sure how this can be fixed.

Quote
With SwitchRes X, you can let it fill in all the blanks according to pre-set formulas. If, when building a custom timing, you click on the "Use simplified settings:" check box and then select "CVT-RB" from the associated pop-up menu, all you need type in is "1920" for Horizontal Active and "1080" for Vertical Active and "60" Hz for Vertical Scan rate. SRX will fill in all the other numbers. The dot clock will come down to 138.5 MHz when you do this. That's not quite the magic figure of 135 MHz, but it's close enough that it will probably work. If not, you can uncheck "Use simplified settings" and then edit the horizontal front porch, sync and back porch to shave off time (do this in 8 pixel increments) until the pixel clock reaches 135 MHz.

Hopefully all the other strangeness you are seeing relates to the pixel clock issue and all the problems will go away once you have a working 1080p timing.


Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2018, 09:25:07 PM »
Played with the Mini all day today, it is a total beast under OS 9 and is super quiet !  The video at 1280 X 1024 is ROCK solid.  I will be moving it to the home lab and connecting it to a 25" via DVI... I will report back

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2018, 10:03:31 PM »
Oh sure. Taunt an old man with yet another quest
and your new-fangled modern gizmos! :o

Does sound rather cool however.
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Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 04:48:20 AM »
Oh sure. Taunt an old man with yet another quest
and your new-fangled modern gizmos! :o

Does sound rather cool however.

You young whipper snappers and your Mini's, back in my day we had Apple IIe's, you had to spend all day writing programming for them when you wanted them to do something, and they were the size of a small car.

That's the way it was and we liked it. ;D

Offline macStuff

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 08:51:21 AM »
Played with the Mini all day today, it is a total beast under OS 9 and is super quiet !  The video at 1280 X 1024 is ROCK solid.  I will be moving it to the home lab and connecting it to a 25" via DVI... I will report back

so whats the benefit of running os9 on a mini?
what connections does it have on the back?
ethernet / dvi / usb2.0 / firewire ?

id like to see someone put up a video on youtube of a mini running os9!
someone should do that and then put a link to this site on it..
thats the kind of video that will end up going viral
think strategically and use it to our advantage to promote

Quote
Display Support:   Single Display   Resolution Support:   1920x1200
Details:   The DVI video output supports digital resolutions up to 1920x1200. Apple also reports that it supports the "20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz." VGA output (using the provided adapter) supports analog resolutions as high as 1920x1080. S-Video and composite video (to connect to a projector or TV) requires the Apple DVI to Video adapter (sold separately).

what does this mean? coherent vs non-coherent?
does this mean darths monitor is incoherent?? :D


Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2018, 12:19:33 PM »
id like to see someone put up a video on youtube of a mini running os9!
someone should do that and then put a link to this site on it..

Here you go: https://youtu.be/t9G5T0ZaWok
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Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »
Played with the Mini all day today, it is a total beast under OS 9 and is super quiet !  The video at 1280 X 1024 is ROCK solid.  I will be moving it to the home lab and connecting it to a 25" via DVI... I will report back

so whats the benefit of running os9 on a mini?
what connections does it have on the back?
ethernet / dvi / usb2.0 / firewire ?

id like to see someone put up a video on youtube of a mini running os9!
someone should do that and then put a link to this site on it..
thats the kind of video that will end up going viral
think strategically and use it to our advantage to promote

Quote
Display Support:   Single Display   Resolution Support:   1920x1200
Details:   The DVI video output supports digital resolutions up to 1920x1200. Apple also reports that it supports the "20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz." VGA output (using the provided adapter) supports analog resolutions as high as 1920x1080. S-Video and composite video (to connect to a projector or TV) requires the Apple DVI to Video adapter (sold separately).

what does this mean? coherent vs non-coherent?
does this mean darths monitor is incoherent?? :D

Coherent vs non-coherent is some obscure thing to do with the TMDS transmitter( on the GPU ) and the TMDS receiver in the display. The 9200 either has an issue with a weak TMDS signal with non-coherent receivers( Displays ). Or Apple crippled it, tho I doubt that.

The trouble is, no manufacturer really list that in the specs, and I doubt you'd get anyone in tech support to know what you were talking about if you did call them.

So it's really a crap shoot as to what brand and make of display will work correctly at the native res of the LCD/LED. My 1080p HDTV works fine with the Mini @720p, as the pixel clock is not over 135Mhz at that resolution.   

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2018, 05:49:49 PM »
(1680*1050) / 1764000 == 82.9081

does the monitor only allow 85 Hz at that resolution? like  CRT?

1920*1200*59.9, which is what my samsungs do, would exactly fit to those magic 135 MHz.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2018, 06:05:13 PM »
id like to see someone put up a video on youtube of a mini running os9!
someone should do that and then put a link to this site on it..

Here you go: https://youtu.be/t9G5T0ZaWok

ROSS!!!!!!  That is so damn cool on Youtube... people will think your hiding Cube off-screen :)  Can't wait to see all the haters and Mac Experts scratching their heads for a while

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2018, 06:18:31 PM »
Quote
so whats the benefit of running os9 on a mini?
what connections does it have on the back?
ethernet / dvi / usb2.0 / firewire ?

OK, so the "cool-quiet" thing is I was looking for a "Quiet" Machine to run my legacy projects... yes, a G4 Cube is cool, but slow, add a CPU upgrade and you now add noise with a fan and a huge price ticket, Cubes with Fast upgrades bring $350 or more, even now.

So... now the "cool-cheap"... the Mini fits under my Monitor and is only 15 to 20% slower than my MDD which gives me a headache at times, I bought 2 on ebay for $76 and I got the "Diehard" luck of getting 250GB Hard drives in them; which is pretty good considering they are 40 pin PATA notebook hard drives.

I am now in the final stage... testing... If I can get decent playback on my 32 Bit floating-point VST 5 files via a USB interface (I have several M-Audio Transit)
https://www.amazon.com/M-AUDIO-Transit-Resolution-Mobile-Upgrade/dp/B0000CDHP5

So I can playpack old stems form old recordings and transfer Optical stuff from my DAT (Panasonic SV-3700).  If the Mini works out, I will Never go back; I use RAIDED OWC Dual Minis to store this site and all libraries), So I just need to test it all :)

My first full day with the Mini was like running a "cloud-based" Mac OS 9, silent, very perky, and I forgot where the actual unit was.  I am so psyched becuase the Mini is a total POS under X, I used to give them to people for their young kids to play with, I laughed at them, I am NOT laughing now, this baby was made for OS 9... who knew

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2018, 09:28:19 PM »
thats what i wrote in a german forum one hour ago. as an OS9 machine, the mini ranges in the area of the quicksilver 2003 machines. it is 4 times faster than a cube - which costs like 10 times more.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline macarone

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2018, 08:27:51 PM »
Your Panasonic SV-3700 must be great for listening to DAT.

For getting the tapes onto a hard drive, I much prefer a Sony SDT-9000 which came in SCSI only (no IDE). This will read the tapes to your hard drive at less than half the "real time" of optical. I've tried it with a Ratoc SCSI to FW converter, and that does work with a Mac mini, but I much prefer a SCSI PCI card in a Mac Pro.

DATXtract reads audio DAT in OS X. Not sure if there ever was software for OS 9.

Lots of additional links here, but some no longer seem to work:

http://www.zianet.com/jgray/dat/links.html#DAT%20Studio

Once I transfered an hour tape in about 25 mins, I never went back to optical.

Offline macStuff

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2018, 12:28:05 AM »
My first full day with the Mini was like running a "cloud-based" Mac OS 9, silent, very perky, and I forgot where the actual unit was.  I am so psyched becuase the Mini is a total POS under X, I used to give them to people for their young kids to play with, I laughed at them, I am NOT laughing now, this baby was made for OS 9... who knew

true. very true.
steve jobs is rolling in his grave.

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 05:08:16 AM »
We should do a youtube video of OS 9 holding a funeral for Steve Jobs ;D

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2018, 08:32:00 AM »
hopefully you guys manage to fix the audio line out control issue, because with only 1 firewire and 1 usb port these machines are difficult use even as additional host computer (aka "standalone synth") because it would be overkill to add proper audio and midi interfaces IMO.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2018, 08:33:34 AM »
oh p.s. diehard, you slipped into the wrong thread ;)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2018, 10:06:44 AM »
Your Panasonic SV-3700 must be great for listening to DAT.

For getting the tapes onto a hard drive, I much prefer a Sony SDT-9000 which came in SCSI only (no IDE). This will read the tapes to your hard drive at less than half the "real time" of optical. I've tried it with a Ratoc SCSI to FW converter, and that does work with a Mac mini, but I much prefer a SCSI PCI card in a Mac Pro.

DATXtract reads audio DAT in OS X. Not sure if there ever was software for OS 9.

Lots of additional links here, but some no longer seem to work:

http://www.zianet.com/jgray/dat/links.html#DAT%20Studio

Once I transfered an hour tape in about 25 mins, I never went back to optical.

Off Topic, but I must say that is very Cool :) 

If I had more than 40 tapes to go thru, I would definitely conciser it, but I get the benefit of listening to them and making track notes as I transfer.  I was lazy 24 years ago, so most tapes only have a date label and no content sheets

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2018, 10:10:38 AM »
From IIO...
Quote
hopefully you guys manage to fix the audio line out control issue, because with only 1 firewire and 1 usb port these machines are difficult use even as additional host computer (aka "standalone synth") because it would be overkill to add proper audio and midi interfaces IMO.

There are 2 USB, not one :)

FW400 can be "daisy-chained" so you can have both and interface and external Hard drive

Quote
oh p.s. diehard, you slipped into the wrong thread 

Yeah... this one went more off the rails than usual :(
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:27:17 AM by DieHard »

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2018, 11:58:17 AM »
i never count the first usb port. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2018, 01:48:32 PM »
  Don't worry, I'm still going to work out if I can 'graft' a third port onto the data lines for the Bluetooth card. ;D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 06:52:08 PM by MacOS Plus »

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2018, 02:03:34 PM »
dont forget to provide enough wireless voltage pls :D
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2018, 01:28:48 AM »
I attached a little hub with 4 ports that does not need external power, disks work great in the hub, and the Cinema Displays has got two powered 2 ports. Obviously not internal, but just quality still. Also FW 400 Hub. Which works great.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 05:34:18 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline macStuff

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2018, 04:34:48 AM »
*sigh*

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 05:43:46 AM »
I attached a little hub with 4 ports that does not need external power, disks work great in the hub

then you are lucky. most disks i have dont even work well when connected directly to the minis (core2duo). sometimes the operation interrupts, sometimes they dont work at all right after startup. i have already added a powered hub to my download mini for that reason. firewire hub, yes, does the job great, but is a very expensive solution.

best option seems to be to replace the optical drive with a second HD and use the line out for now.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2018, 08:43:17 PM »
I attached a little hub with 4 ports that does not need external power, disks work great in the hub, and the Cinema Displays has got two powered 2 ports. Obviously not internal, but just quality still. Also FW 400 Hub. Which works great.

Just an FYI, I have seen many Mac Mini and Mac book pros die from drawing too much USB power.  people do all sorts of stupid things like plug (2) phones in a Mac book pro and use it an a phone charging station when they can buy a wall adapter for $2 and blow up a $1600 unit.

Diehard rule of thumb... NEVER, EVER, use un-powered hubs for anything that draws more amps then a flash drive, especially external hard drives or optical drives

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2018, 01:24:59 AM »
Thanks. I mainly use the unpowered hub for XSKey and SD Card USB reader thing and then just flash drives, and sometimes Bluetooth dongle. It was just once I tried to get Rhapsody 5.6 (X Server 1.2v3) on my TiBook for fun, but to install it insisted I boot from the CD. I backed up the HD by putting TiBook in disk mode, have a mac mini booted off a leopard disk, then connect my USB disk to the hub on the Mac mini. (I cannot remember why I didn't just backup to my FW disk). Anyway after all of that and using identity tool and preparing the internal (after a backup) the rhapsody CD got to a loading screen in colour, then after 3 seconds just shut down. I just then decided to clear the stuff to make the identity back to the TiBook and then restore from the USB disk connect to hub on the mini, which then over FW to the TiBook in disk mode, (that was because mini has 2.0 usb). But you know probably won't need to do that again, and won't if there are risks power related.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2018, 06:23:22 AM »
when i am not mistaken, usb has like 100 - 500 milliampere at 5 volts. that means that a harddisk may consume a maximum of 2,5 watts at spinup. that is why many usb cases are coming with a dual usb cable already.

i have yet to see more than one harddisk at a time running at an mac mini via unpowered hub.

my cheapo usb to sata cases (add +1 watt for the LED!) often dont even work on my quicksilver and i get the beep beep usb warning signal when starting up with such a disk connected.

regarding the phone story, i believe that people who do this think they are clever - because loading the cellphone from a computer port instead of a charger is slower, and that is better for the battery in the phone. they dont care about their laptops as much as for their cellphones as it seems. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2018, 06:40:30 AM »
My plug sockets at the wall have dual-USB charging ports as well as plug sockets. Great for phone charging.
Dunking a biscuit is one of life's greatest joys.