Sawtooth 450 MHZ - OS 9 - Video Card Options

[Smack2k]

I have searched around on this forum and others and have seen a ton of lists on what video cards are best in various G4 Models running OS 9, but for most of those that I have read, people have upgraded their processors significantly or at least by a few hundred MHZ.  My question is, if keeping the Sawtooth G4 running at 450 MHZ, what are the best options for the Video Card that wouldnt bottleneck the card and still give the best OS 9 performance possible at that processor speed?  I know the GeForce4 Ti 4600 is mentioned as being one of the best cards for this, but I wonder how much of a performance hit it would take running on a 450 MHZ processor

Some of the cards I have unused right now that I could flash to Mac:
   GeForce2 MX200 AGP
   GeForce4 MX420 AGP
   Radeon 7500 AIW AGP
   Radoen 8500 AIW AGP
   FIC Radeon 9000 AGP
   Radeon 9200 Pro PCI
   GeForce 2 GTS
   GeForce3
   GeForce3 Ti200
   GeForce4 Ti4600
   GeForce4 Ti4400 (Needs a couple re-caps)
   Radeon 9600XT AGP
   Radeon X800 XT AGP
   
Any of those fit the bill or would I be better off going out and getting a different card for it?  Looking at Radeon 9000 Pro AGP or a Radeon 9200 AGP, as well as others, so any advice is appreciated!

[macStuff]

my sawtooth 450mhz has a radeon 8500 in it.. which i would say is a great match for the machine

my sawtooth came with a rage 128 pro AGP which does a great job for what it is, having only 16mb ram. (doesnt support 1680x1050 resolution)

ti4600 never came bundled with the sawtooth because they didnt exist at the time that they were producing the sawtooths.

[darthnVader]

I have searched around on this forum and others and have seen a ton of lists on what video cards are best in various G4 Models running OS 9, but for most of those that I have read, people have upgraded their processors significantly or at least by a few hundred MHZ.  My question is, if keeping the Sawtooth G4 running at 450 MHZ, what are the best options for the Video Card that wouldnt bottleneck the card and still give the best OS 9 performance possible at that processor speed?  I know the GeForce4 Ti 4600 is mentioned as being one of the best cards for this, but I wonder how much of a performance hit it would take running on a 450 MHZ processor

Some of the cards I have unused right now that I could flash to Mac:
   GeForce2 MX200 AGP
   GeForce4 MX420 AGP
   Radeon 7500 AIW AGP
   Radoen 8500 AIW AGP
   FIC Radeon 9000 AGP
   Radeon 9200 Pro PCI
   GeForce 2 GTS
   GeForce3
   GeForce3 Ti200
   GeForce4 Ti4600
   GeForce4 Ti4400 (Needs a couple re-caps)
   Radeon 9600XT AGP
   Radeon X800 XT AGP
   
Any of those fit the bill or would I be better off going out and getting a different card for it?  Looking at Radeon 9000 Pro AGP or a Radeon 9200 AGP, as well as others, so any advice is appreciated!

If you're talking about OS 9, then the Radeon 9000 is a really good card, if it's passively cooled. Also the Ti4600.

[macStuff]

if you have the cards + another AGP PC;
then id say just try flashing
save the original rom
worst case u have to flash it back to how it was before

i think its best if u use an AGP card in the sawtooth,
if it was me personally id be curious of the performance of the geforce 3 ti
as there was alot of articles published questioning if the gf4 was really more powerful than the gf3

GeForce4 Ti4600 AGP
GeForce4 Ti4400 AGP
Radeon 8500 AIW AGP
Radeon 9000 AGP

anyone of these cards should work fantastically, even the 7500 should work great.
the 9600XT + X800XT are more applicable to running OSX as far as i know they cant be used with proper 2D accell in os9

[MacOS Plus]

  I think my best all-round experience has been with the OEM Radeon 9000 Pro.  That is what I have in my Sawtooth right now.  It properly supports dual digital output (dual DVI with the right adapter),  supports the highest resolutions on VGA also (unlike the GeForce series for the most part), and nearly never caused any compatibility issues.  You also have the bonus that it will work just fine in a dual-boot setup with OS X, should you choose to do that (many other cards will cause you nothing but pain trying to just get a basic boot on OS X).  As darthnVader mentioned, passive cooling is also a very nice feature since the machine will run almost dead-silent, and you needn't worry about the eventual failure of the fan and difficulty sourcing a replacement.

  If you're concerned about the video card 'out-performing' the 'lowly' G4 450 MHz CPU, why worry if you have that long a list of unused video cards at hand?  The less stress on your video card, if your CPU can't feed it data fast enough, the cooler your card should run, which helps the lifespan of every other component in the machine.  I also thought that in general the video card in just about any computer was supposed to compensate for you CPU.

  Since we're primarily talking about flashing PC video cards here, for most trouble-free experience I would go Radeon 9000/8500/7500 first, accepting you're likely getting a single digital output and a good chance yours has a fan.  If gaming were the goal then Ti4600 and a completely different machine with higher bus speed and a lot more CPU horsepower.  BTW, Ti4600 runs SCORCHING HOT - better in a machine with significantly improved airflow.

[Smack2k]

Thanks for all the info....looks like I will hunt down a ATI Radeon 9000 Pro for this as I have no plans to upgrade the processor and have a Dual Proc Quicksilver as well a G5 for faster stuff..just want to put something in there that will give me the best experience with OS 9 as I dive into it, get to know it, and start adding things to it.

I by no means ever called the Sawtooth a "lowly" 450 MHZ, hell, I love slower speeds and the different things that came with them.   I just meant I didnt see the point in putting a card that has a ton of features it can use due to the processor speed into the G4.  But after reading this I see things different.  I come from an almost all PC background and am really getting into older Macs for the first time, so I am learning a ton as I go...

I do appreciate all the information though.

EDIT - I do have an FIC ATI Radeon 9000 AGP Card.  Would this suffice? Its a 64 MB Radeon 9000.  Does the card have to a Pro model?  I am not sure if this one is or not as I havent dived too far into it since I got it with some other parts a few months back....

Also, for the AIW cards, I didnt find anything definitive on it, but if I flashed either of those to a Mac Radeon 8500 or 7500, would it work and just not have the extra features (TV out / etc) the AIW did?

[reader50]

The only difference between Radeon 9000 and Pro is a ~10% clock speed boost. Software-wise, they're the same card.

The GF3 is a little weaker than an 8500, about the same as a 9000 or 9200. You'll want an AGP card, especially if you eventually add a SATA card. Even a SATA1 card can saturate the PCI buss with a drive-to-drive copy.

I don't know the answer on the 8500 AIW card.

[Smack2k]

Would a 9700 Pro work nicely in the Sawtooth?

[reader50]

It should - a 9700 was an option on the last (FW800) G4 PowerMacs. But ... no OS9 acceleration.

[Smack2k]

Thanks for the info...I want all the features I can get in OS 9, so I will go back to the 9000 or Flash my Ti4600!!

[MacOS Plus]

I was just being cheeky when using the word "lowly".   BTW, I also came from a mainly PC background.

  You should be fine flashing the cards you have so long as you ensure the core and memory clock timings in the Mac ROM match what your current ROM has.  It may require editing.  There are other members on this site with much more experience in this area than I.  They can explain better if you have any questions on the procedure.

  Glad to be of help.

[Smack2k]

I flashed my Ti4600 tonight.   Looking on the Mac elite flash g page, there doesn't appear to be more to do but I ha e read other places a hardware side mod is needed?  If so, what is that?

[macStuff]

remember, the 8500 is faster than the 9000!

[reader50]

I flashed my Ti4600 tonight.   Looking on the Mac elite flash g page, there doesn't appear to be more to do but I ha e read other places a hardware side mod is needed?  If so, what is that?

If your PC card is a 2x/4x AGP, you're probably done. If it's a 4x/8x, it will require physical modding to make it compatible with the Sawtooth 2x AGP slot.

See this thread for more details.

About cards with full OS9 drivers. (all work in X also)
ATi: Rage II through Radeon up to Radeon 9250. AIW cards unsupported.
nVidia: GF 2MX, 4MX, GF3, GF4. I haven't heard if the GF2 has drivers.

Ranking by speed tiers:

1. GF 4 Ti4600
2. ...
3. R 8500
4. GF 3, R 9000, R 9200
5. R 9250
6. GF 4MX, R 7500
7. GF 2MX, R 7000
8. Rage 128, Rage 128 Pro

Negatives.
ATi cards: DVI widescreen resolutions may not work in 9. Always work in X. Always work over VGA.
nVidia cards: some early OS9 games were written before nVidia cards got released on Mac, and do not automatically engage acceleration on an nVidia card. Mostly UT-engine games in my testing.

[macStuff]

sawtooths are all 2x AGP

reader50s chart looks about right

[MacTron]

For 4X AGP systems the best option is nVidia Ti 4600. For 2X AGP systems the best options are Radeon 8500 or 9000 pro, the nVidia Ti 4600 don't perform as it should in 2X systems in my experience.

[macStuff]

the 8500 is also 4x AGP capable.. just to point this out
as well there is 64mb + 128mb versions (i have the 64mb version)
darthnvader recently mentioned that there was a 128mb Radeon 8500
https://www.cnet.com/products/ati-radeon-8500-agp-4x-128-mb-ddr/specs/
it works well in 4x AGP macs aswell, but just isnt clocked as high as the ti4600

personally im kind of interested to see the results of the AIW cards
i think he should try to flash the 8500 AIW these radeon cards
 can usually be flashed back to their original rom contents so theres not much
to risk usually with more cards

the sawtooth is usually the safest machine to check these types of fresh flashed cards

[reader50]

I have an 8500 (flashed) and a Ti 4600 (oem) for my Sawtooth. This wasn't planned - I thought the 8500 had burned out a few years ago. Turns out it had only overheated and needed a new fan. But I figured that out after buying the 4600 to replace it.

The Ti 4600 is notably snappier in my testing. Especially in games, but I notice it just mousing around in OSX. It's the main card today, with the 8500 retired to spare status.

Note that my Sawtooth has been upgraded to 1 GHz, not typical for a 2x AGP system.

[Smack2k]

I have the Ti4600 ready to go in my 450 MHZ Sawtooth.  I will report the results I see...what are some things I should look for when in OS 9 for a good read on how its running?  Are there any tests I can run on it?

Otherwise, anyone know anything definitive on AIW 8500 and flashing it?

[Smack2k]

After some install issues with OS 9.2 in my Sawtooth, I finally have it up and running with the Ti4600 installed.

Are there any extra drivers I need to install to get the best use of the GeForce card or am I good to go after the OS is installed?

Many thanks.