PowerMac G3 - One PCI slot left - Use it for SATA or Ethernet?

[watkipet]

I'd like to get back into using Mac OS 9, if for no other reason than nostalgia. After 10 years of my old G3 233MHz desktop sitting and collecting dust, I turned it on yesterday. The first thing I did was image the drives to back them up—so that data is safe now.

Configuration and modifcations:
   233MHz Power Macintosh G3 Desktop - M6141LL/A
   120 GB IDE Spinning disk
   20 GB Barracuda internal SCSI Spinning disk
   Replaced power supply fan with quieter one
   Added small internal fan to fold-out chassis
   6MB VRAM
   768 MB RAM
   Radeon 7000 64MB PCI graphics card (PC-card flashed to be a Mac card)
   Firewire and USB 2.0 PCI card (with internal firewire connector)
   M-Audio USB Quattro (4 in 4 out + MIDI) audio interface
   Mac OS 9.2.2 and OS X 10.4 Server with XPostFacto installed

So I have one PCI slot left and I need to choose what to use it for. I’d like to replace the spinning drives with an SSD since I’m not sure how long they’re going to last (and they’re noisy). The IDE interface on this Mac is pretty slow, however. Also, the built-in Ethernet is only 10-base-T half duplex.

I can think of several options for my remaining PCI slot:

• Install a 100-base-T Ethernet card. Replace my disks with an SSD and a PATA-SATA adapter and put it on the slow IDE bus.
• Buy a USB 2.0 100-base-T Ethernet dongle (not sure if any have OS 9 drivers) and try to find a SATA Sonnet PCI card.
• Use Firewire networking to my Mac Pro (use it as a Firewire-Ethernet bridge/router). I know OS X supports Firewire networking. I’m not sure if OS 9 does.
• Put a Firewire drive in the Mac itself. I don’t think I can boot from it, though, so I’d still need to connect the boot drive to the slow IDE bus.

My Mac Pro acts as my file-server. I’d prefer to store my data there since it’s automatically backed-up with Time Machine.

Any advice?

I’m interested in Mac OS 9 because I fear that old software and data is disappearing every day—software that people spent years of their lives making. We need to preserve it. I consider computer games to be works of art in their own right. It’s sad to loose art just because hard-drives, CDs, and floppy disks get old and fail. As a teenager, I worked paper-routes for two years to save enough money to buy that 233MHz G3. For me, running old hardware and software brings back memories.

My background is Computer Engineering with a specialty in embedded software. Eventually I’d like to learn how to write drivers for Mac OS 9. I don’t have Metrowerks CodeWarrior yet, but I do have Symantec’s C++ compiler along with many of the Apple Developer Connection CDs.

[GaryN]

Observations:
• If screaming-fast internet connectivity is important, you should "save" the last PCI slot for that.
• Finding a Sonnet SATA card is obviously a crapshoot. Might take a day, might take a year.
• You're correct - OS9 will NOT support FW networking with your Mac Pro directly. There are some workarounds (search NAS here on the Forum) but they are workarounds and are not all that smooth. There are also risks attempting to back up OS9 with Time Machine. TM will want to "assign" the OS9 volume to its OSX "mate" and will cause problems with permissions. A TM restore of OS9 files or of an OS9 volume may well result in read-only files that cannot be fixed in either OS9 or OSX. TM was not designed to be a universal backup solution.

But most importantly, remember that the primary speed gain with an SSD comes from the SSD. Compared to spinning HDDs, they're lightning fast - especially if (and I don't know because you didn't say) your HDDs are of the old 5200rpm variety. Even connected to a "slow" IDE bus, the computer will still act like it suddenly lost 80 pounds and 20 years.

[reader50]

Can your USB/FW card boot? If from FW, an external FW case would deliver up to 400 Mb/s (50 MB/s). That's equivalent to ATA-66 in the early G4s.

If you can boot from the USB2 ports, plug a flash drive in. And / or use external cases. If space inside isn't cramped, you can even get an empty USB2 casing from ebay, and use the converter board on an internal SATA drive. USB2 is nominally 480 Mb/s (60 MB/s) but driver overhead more typically gives 25-40 MB/s. Still a big improvement over the existing drive busses.

If that card can support your modern drives, you can put an ethernet card in the remaining PCI slot. Could you live with faster ethernet only in OSX? If so, this USB adapter to ethernet 100 would help save a slot. OS9 would use the onboard 10M port, and you could tell OSX to use the USB-100M port. Then connect both to the router.

[watkipet]

@reader50 and @GaryN

Thanks for the advice. Based on that, I think I'm leaning toward an SSD connected to the existing IDE interface. I strongly suspect that I can't boot from the Firewire card given that the USB mouse doesn't even move on the screen until the system extension for the card is loaded some time into the boot process (but an ADB mouse will move the pointer prior to that).

Even if I can't get a Firewire drive to boot, I suppose I can just put the System Folder on a small SSD (connected to the IDE bus) and put everything else (Applications, some documents) on a Firewire-connected SSD.

I don't really need much space or speed--I'm just going to use this machine for software development, testing, playing a video game or two, and messing with Player PRO for tracking if I get really inspired (and gain some musicality).

@GaryN
Thanks for the Time Machine info. I wouldn't be running TM on this machine--I would be accessing a file server over AFP and that file server happens to back up itself up with TM. Is that situation still a concern? If I restore the file server to a previous state using TM, is it going to mess up files that other OS 9 machines stored on it via AFP?

[GaryN]

@GaryN
Thanks for the Time Machine info. I wouldn't be running TM on this machine--I would be accessing a file server over AFP and that file server happens to back up itself up with TM. Is that situation still a concern? If I restore the file server to a previous state using TM, is it going to mess up files that other OS 9 machines stored on it via AFP?

Quite probably yes. Here's why / what's important:

Time Machine is a specialized app designed to back up OSX-running Mac computers. It sorts and updates files based on Apple ID's and data provided by the individual OSX OS's connected to it. It writes all kinds of little notes to itself along with the files on the target disk. That's how it keeps things up-to-date identified and separated when multiple computers are backed up on say, one Time Capsule. In order for it to work at all, the computers being backed up have to be Time Machine aware. The ability to use and be used (yuk yuk) by TM is built into OSX. Remember, TM backups are scheduled and initiated by each OSX system to be backed up - NOT by a central "TM backup app"

It is not built into OS9. OS9 pre-dates TM.

So, all that can happen if TM is used to backup an OS9 volume is that the entire volume is "seen" as data belonging to the OSX install associated with it. TM will dutifully backup all the files and will restore them as well but their ownership will be changed to the OSX that they were stored with. As far as I can tell, this is accidental… the UNIX-based permissions in OSX are far different from the simpler sharing permissions in OS9 and before. The problem begins when you try to use the restored files with OS9 and it tells you that you don't own them anymore. You can't fix it in OS9 and even if you try to make the permissions completely open in OSX, OS9 doesn't / can't recognize that. So now you have files that are read-only. You can't update them, can't move them, and can't duplicate them to try to get around the problem.

This is actually NOT a bug - it's a feature that helps TM seamlessly keep current backups entirely in the background. But trying to use it for anything other than OSX, such as "carrying along" another completely different OS and files, has a 99% certainty of failure.

It's like finding out you've been saving all of your eggs in one basket and now you can see them in there, but you can't unlock the lid to get at them…

There are other risks associated with dual-boot systems.
You can search the Forum for "dual-boot" or start here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3536.msg23100.html#msg23100

[watkipet]

@GaryN

Thanks! I appreciate the explanation. I just ordered an Ethernet card with a RealTek 8169 chipset. I'll look around for an 8, 16, or 32GB SSD for booting from next.

[macStuff]

was there any pci cards that combine 100baseT/1000baseT with usb 2.0??
if there was that would be the card for you!
im not sure one exists tho

tho they did make firewire/usb2.0 combo cards
http://web.archive.org/web/20050728082621/http://www.sonnettech.com:80/product/tango_2.html

then there was the TRIO card which combined all 3: (ATA133/FireWire/USB 2.0 Card)
http://web.archive.org/web/20060520045456/https://secure1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_39&products_id=63&osCsid=af9deb43c21011037648142ec9f52050

for wireless N-Airport (compatible with osx only?) i think the card that sonnet pushed was this one:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/legacyproducts/ariaextremenpci.html

and finally the good old trusty wired gigabit ethernet: was the Presto Gigabit
[GE1000]
http://web.archive.org/web/20060520045537/https://secure1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_55&products_id=107&osCsid=af9deb43c21011037648142ec9f52050
the presto gigabit should support os9? i think?
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/legacyproducts/prestogigpro.html
i guess not! it says OS® X 10.4+

so the realtek 8169 works in os9? i think i have one that works in os9 and one that doesnt...
i know i wrote on the bracket of one "PC only"
and on another 8169 variant i wrote "MAC" to show that one was 100% compatible ..
so YMMV - good luck i hope u buy the write 8169 variant! (maybe someone else has more info on ensuring finding the right model? i could dig up my "MAC" labeled realtek + get the exact P/N
i think i have one of those cards actually and i have used it before
too many facts to keep track of

***update ok i pulled the network card that i labelled "MAC" compatible
its called the TEG-PCITXR
on the chip itself it says RTL8169S-32
5B436S2
on the side port it has a RJ-45 port and 2 light indicators "LINK" + "ACT"
very positive that this card is manufactured by "TRENDNET"
https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156139

Support 32-Bit PCI Local Bus Master high-speed operation of Rev. 2.3 specification
1 x 10/100/1000Mbps Auto Negotiation and Auto MDI-X Gigabit Port
Built-in FIFO (8K/64K) buffers

[reader50]

The TRIO card is labeled as Windows-only. I couldn't find any reference to Mac compatibility on sonnet's site.

[macStuff]

reader50:
quoating from the page i linked above:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060520045456/https://secure1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_39&products_id=63&osCsid=af9deb43c21011037648142ec9f52050

 shows this mac compatibility info for the trio card:

 

Compatible Macintosh Models
•      Power Macintosh® Series 4400, 7200, 7215, 7220, 7300, 7500, 7600, 8200, 8500, 8515, 8600, 9500, 9515, 9600
•      Macintosh Server G3, G4
•      Power Macintosh G3 All-in-one*, Blue & White, Desktop*, Minitower*
•      Power Mac® G4 (all models except Cube)
•      Performa® Series 6400, 6410, 6420
•      Workgroup Server 7250, 7350, 8550, 9650
•      Daystar Genesis and Millennium Series
•      Mactell XB-Pro
•      Power Computing PowerBase Desktop and Tower, PowerCenter, PowerCenter Pro Desktop and Minitower, PowerCurve, PowerTower, PowerTower Pro, PowerWave
•      StarMax 3000, 4000, 5000, 5500
•      UMAX C500, C600, C600X, J700, S900

also has this note about compatibility:

   * Beige Power Macintosh G3 Minitower and Desktop machines with a revision 3 logic board may experience incompatibility issues with the Trio card. Sonnet is currently working to resolve this issue. To determine your machine's logic board revision, check the ROM revision information listed in Apple System Profiler; if it is $77D.45F2 , your machine has a revision 3 logic board.

not sure what revision beige desktop g3 hes got!!!
so maybe not such a good idea for the OP to try for anyway

[reader50]

I was checking their current page in the legacy products section. Click on the Technical Specifications tab, and it only shows Windows compatibility. I hadn't thought to check archive.org for past versions.

Their current (legacy) support page does show some Mac downloads and a worrysome FAQ:

Beige Power Macintosh G3 Minitower and Desktop machines with a revision 3 logic board are incompatible with the Tempo Trio card. To determine your machine's logic board revision, check the ROM revision information listed in Apple System Profiler; if it is $77D.45F2, your machine has a revision 3 logic board.

Looks like they gave up on fixing the issue.

[macStuff]

yes i understood that you were probably taking that from a different source
companies like owc + geethree etc these companies tend to change the message on their website to reflect their current needs
to stop people from emailing them about mac os 9 for example im sure they have removed alot of info + images

all the pages related to the older stuff are all broken images now
not sure but maybe this was intentional to scare people away from contacting them about those things that are no longer profitable enough to support

wow everything on the legacy list on the current site is basically "no longer available"
i guess they sold out all their old stock probably to auction or something

anyway the OP will hopefully find it not too dificult to get the realtek pci gigabit ethernet working

[watkipet]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I did buy a Realtek 8169 on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Realtek-8169-PCI-Network-Card-10-100-1000Mbps-Gigabit-Ethernet-With-Low-Bracket/263435813436

I didn't do any special checking to make sure it was Mac-compatible. Anyway, it works. Maybe I got lucky. I got the driver here (no longer available from Realtek themselves):

https://everymac.com/mac-answers/mac-os-9-classic-support-faq/mac9x-8169(100).zip

I didn't have to patch the driver to change the Vendor ID (my card matched already), but the readme with the driver includes instructions if you need to.

I think I'll get a small SSD with an adapter and try booting from that--but that's a task for another day.

[IIO]

SATA is almost too fast for such a machine, but it will of course allow the insertion of terabyte discs for more storage.

oh, and they dont support DL

[trag]

was there any pci cards that combine 100baseT/1000baseT with usb 2.0??
if there was that would be the card for you!
im not sure one exists tho

SIIG made a gigabit/FW/USB2 card.  Also an earlier 100Mbps/FW/USB2 card.   I don't know how well they work in a Mac, as I have not tested them.   The ethernet portions are based on RealTek 8169 and 8139 respectively.  The Firewire is a TI chipset.  The USB2 is a NEC chipset (may have those last two backwards). 

They are hard to find now days.   There was a brief period, when, apparently, the factory ran out one last build with remaining parts, but left the SIIG name off the cards and those went for less than $15 back when (like 15 years ago).   It was covered/mentioned on XLR8yourmac.com

JU-2Ne012   100 Mbps
JU-2NG011   gigabit
JU-2NG012   also gigabit; no I don't know how the last two differ, if at all.

All these combo cards work by putting a PCI-PCI bridge on the card and then putting the devices behind the bridge.  A PCI-PCI bridge is a device which plugs into one PCI slot, and creates more PCI slots behind it.  They are a part of the PCI specification, and the PCI specification supports multiple layers (daisy chaining) of PCI-PCI bridges, so that one PCI bus could build out to 256 PCI slots, using bridges.

However, Apple's PCI implementation, at least on the x500/X600 machines has a (at least one) bug which does not properly support nested PCI-PCI bridges.   So, you look at this card, and you say, That's fine, there's only one PCI bridge there.    For some reason, the driver for the Real Tek 8169 (at least in System 9) makes it look like it is a Bridge and device, so there may be problems with the ethernet portion because to the system something about it smell like it's behind two bridges (the one on the card, and whatever unnaturalness the RealTek Sys.9 driver is doing.

I can't get a plain vanilla RealTek 8169 card to work at all in the lower slots of the Umax S900/J700 for that reason.  Works like a champ in the upper two slots.  Unfortunately, the lower four slots are behind a PCI-PCI brdige.