G3 and Cubase VST 5.1

[Petros90]

Hello, I hope that this is the right place to post.
I'm a compete newbie to this forum, so if I'm in error - forgive! Forgive!
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How far is it possible to upgrade the G3 400 B&W?  I'm running Cubase 5.1.
I've already replaced the 6GB drive with a 250GB one (=128GB), I have the "final" macos9lives OS 9.2.2  and I will be upgrading to the max 1GB RAM this week.
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I checked out supernova777's 'best Mac' post of course, but I'm not quite ready to go down the G4 route - I've owned my  machine since 2000 and loved it so much that even though it "died" in 2003 I kept it for 15 years.
Now it's risen so actually it's the "newest" computer I own ... and it got me through my degree, so it's kind of like an old friend. It's about the Mojo, man.
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I'm sure I read somewhere that the bottlenecks were the CPU and the PATA hard drive, I know it's possible to overclock the 400, perhaps a SSHD is possible?
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Would love to read your thoughts, thanks.

[Petros90]

OK, I've found out how to search the forum - and supernova777's post in the Mac CPU Upgrades post ... derr ...
Still interested in your thoughts tho'

[macStuff]

i've got the 450mhz model sitting next to my bed as a night stand at the moment lol

supernova777 is me
glad to be of assistance

one of the most important upgrades for my b+W is bypassing the built in hard drive bus (ATA) because its slow
in my B+W right now i have an Acard 6880M pci in the 3rd pci slot
https://www.bwi.com/document/1855
which bumps it from ATA33 to ATA133 

ATA33   = 33   Mb/s
ATA66   = 66   Mb/s
ATA100 = 100 Mb/s
ATA133 = 133 Mb/s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=934.0

i have used the acard in combination with another adapter that converts a sata drive to a pata drive
ive also used the sonnet tempo sata150 card (clone of a seritek 1s2) with the machine
if u want a cheap sata card you might still be able to get one made custom for you by user "max1zz" hes from the uk

ive had some strange problems trying to upgrade the video card to a radeon 7000 in my machine
(seller howfunkel on ebay) i didnt purchase the card myself but i think the person i got it from got it from this listing:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Apple-Mac-G4-G5-ATI-Radeon-7000-PCI-64MB-Video-Card-DVI-VGA-S-Video-TV-Out-OS9-/200710223413
so be wary of trying that one on the b+W.. if anyone has any succesful experience with this exact card please post!
i think the original redeon 7000 had 32mb ram and a green pcb with the circular radeon logo printed on it..
that card should work without issue i think, if anyone has one for sale id be interested in getting one of those older radeon 7000's
rather then the 64mb modded from pc to mac shown in the ebay listing above

[Astroman]

you might check if your B/W is revision one or two (if you haven't yet).
I was lucky enough to have the 2nd and wouldn't complain, even if the disk port isn't the most fastest thing on earth. But I wouldn't bother with a revision one machine.
SSDs (all I tested, pata and ata-sata via adapter) were all lame in effective performance, but quiet and don't draw much power.
I once got an offer too good to refuse (2 Pro Tools DSP cards and an 8 channel interface for $200) and so the old fella was reactivated from the attic... turned out to be a good decision.

To my surprise I got used to PT editing quite fast (originally the machine was intended as an fx-processor only). Sure, it's very different from Cubase, but the sound is stellar... if you pick the proper plugins. Not all are created equal.
Imho it's a better option than to update the CPU, which can be tricky on the G3.

[macStuff]

Imho it's a better option than to update the CPU, which can be tricky on the G3.

i also had problems with trying to do zif 500 upgrade on a pci graphics yikes or low-mhz g3 b+W
i ended up tossing whichever it was in the garbage.. i really wish i hadnt in hindsight but i was pissed
and that was way before i ever started coming on this site or researchign these topics
i have no idea what the problem was but it was a pain in the ass... and from the experience
i dont really think its worthwhile to bother upgrading the cpu in these old machines
(my own opinion, you are welcome to yours of course)
anything lower than a DA/Quicksilver i would only use for low-end purposes anyways

[Petros90]

I say, thanks for your speedy replies chaps. I'm overwhelmed.
The ACARD RAID controller idea is very interesting.
I already have an Adaptec SCSI card in the machine and I was wondering if it's worth looking out for an internal or external SCSI drive. I already have a FireWire drive but of course you can't boot from FireWire.

I'm still finding the various speed ratings a bit confusing i.e. bus speed vs. CPU speed vs. PATA vs. SCSI. Must try harder.
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By post this week I received 3 x 256 MB of RAM and three Logic board batteries (they seemed very good value and hey, I'm an optimist).
I'm about to remove the Creative Soundblaster card, the drivers don't seem to work although they used to in OS9.1, 15 years ago.
And install the new RAM.
As I installed the rest of the horrible Creative software I'm going to do a clean install of OS 9.2.2 as per the instructions I found a couple of days ago on here, I think it was posted by Supernova777 ... can't find it now ... shoulda bookmarked ... oh dear ...

[macStuff]

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1853.msg9036.html#msg9036

heres the post about the acard

heres the 8.6 restore for the G3 (rev 2 only i think?)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/l7ir314la8655wv/PMG3_86.toast_.sit

[Petros90]

MacStuff - Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I think though that I’m trying to run before I can walk and getting overexcited at the prospect of upgrading the G3’s performance, before I know how to achieve a stable system.

(BTW, interesting that one has to revert to 8.6 to run the Acard. That was the original OS on my machine and I still have the original install CD, but thanks for the link anyway.)

Presently, upgrading any further is all theoretical as my first task is to get the OS and Cubase working nicely together.

i.e. I need to learn:
- how to install and tweak OS 9.2.2 to be a stable platform for Cubase VST 5 (I’ve not upgraded to 5.1 yet)
- How many VSTi and VST effects I can run – and how many I really need to use.

I recall in 2001 - 03 (using OS 9 through to OS 9.1) that I never had a problem recording and playing back as much audio as I wanted, but that the Cubase performance monitor would keep going into the red when using the maximum number of VSTs allowed (I had the last update of Cubase so I had the LM-7 and JX-16 as well, plus some extra effects. I think.). System hangs were commonplace.


Fast-forward - I just had time yesterday to rip out the SB Live! card, and install the Logic board battery and extra RAM.

Booting into 9.2.2, the 1GB of RAM was seen.
Cubase 5 loaded OK, I didn't have time to import any of my old Song files and folders from my collection of 15-year-old CDs (looking forward to that, should be fun!) so I messed about with the World Song demo for a few minutes.
When I tried to open the other demo Song Cubase froze.
Force Quit didn't work so I rebooted and closed down.

I think a Clean Install is definitely a good idea. Somewhere on this site is a procedure for installing and tweaking the OS and Cubase to run on a G3, written by one of you guys.

(It's still amazing to me how quickly it boots up and closes down.)

Why oh why is audio and music production so demanding, while video editing is (although not without its own issues) a piece of cake in comparison? Aaaagh.

I'd be very interested in your thoughts re. how is your upgraded G3 performing now, in terms of running VSTs and audio within Cubase, compared to its original state. I appreciate it’s a 450 while mine is a 400.

Also, your comment about "low-end" - what does this mean exactly?
In 2000-01 had 128MB of RAM and a 6GB HDD plus an external LaCie 20GB FireWire drive. I was editing miniDV video in Adobe Premiere 5.1c on this very machine, the main issue then was the size of the storage devices.
The procedure then was to record onto VHS videotape with the timecode burned in, review the footage and make a note of the sections of video that were required. Only those sections would be digitised onto the hard drive through the Miromotion capture card. Happy days …
It was quite a good discipline, as most films/videos end up with over 10x the original material discarded, and doing this before I even sat down at the Mac gave a clearer focus on the end result.
That being said, it's now far easier to play with footage and create experimental stuff, although like I have said before I don't think I've created anything as exciting and valid as I did on the Mac 18 years ago.

So to clarify, my immediate targets are:
1.   Mac OS 9 and Cubase 5.1 working well
2.   Minimal system hangs
3.   Performance increase

These things must be achievable surely. No. 3 looks a long way off …

[Petros90]

My original thinking was to get the machine upgraded to the max first then get the OS and Cubase sorted.

Ha! I realise that this is going to take some time.

I now think that with these few relatively easy hardware upgrades -

• A decent external soundcard (M-Audio Mobile Pre FireWire arriving next week),
  
• A larger HDD and
  
  • 1GB of RAM
    
  
  this should be enough for now, and that the next stage is to R&D to find ways of smoothing the Apple / Steinberg cohabitation.
  
  BTW I'm finding the new (10yrs old)(but little-used) Hitachi Deskstar 250GB HDD very quiet.
  
  But  I do miss the "clucking" of the old 6GB drive.
  
  I suppose I could sample it ...

[Petros90]

Found it

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,34.msg110.html#msg110

[Astroman]

be aware that a 10 year old drive may fail anytime - it doesn't have to, but it may.
(I also use a couple of such old drives and I'm constantly amazed about them still working, but backing up is must if the drive stores more than just some fun)

I get your sentimental point well (same with me when I saved the B/W G3 from the trashcan).
But the only reasonable 'upgrade' is a Quicksilver - they go for 100 bucks or even less and have everything better and more.
Imho it was Apple's best PowerMac ever - the MDD has (a little) more horsepower, but is much less reliable and can be tough to handle when bitching.

The answer to 'why is digital audio so demanding... ?' is simple: it MUST be close to realtime and errors are really hurting. If a bit doesn't match in a video preview noone cares - in audio it's usually a terribly annoying click or worse.
Another hint in this direction: stick with single core CPUs, audio (from those days) usually HAS trouble on multicore setups. Best of luck ...

[Petros90]

Yup, thanks.
I take all these points on board.
I was feeling my way toward coming to the (sad) conclusion that if I want to do anything serious I will need to upgrade to a faster G4.
I will look out for a Quicksilver. They must be getting scarce now.
Meanwhile, the dear old G3 is a (re)learning and skills upgrade tool.

eg just made a classic (!) mistake, installed the new soundcard drivers without trashing the old extensions, resulting in system freeze on reboot when the card was switched on.
Luckily I made a copy of the clean install System Folder.
I think it is not a mistake I will make too many times.
There will be others!