Author Topic: More information about serial cables needed  (Read 1118 times)

Offline teroyk

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More information about serial cables needed
« on: February 10, 2018, 04:30:02 PM »
There seems to be many standards of mac serial cables and interesting that many of them has come
with software disk. Does anybody have names of them and files from those disks?
I give some of information that I know and I don't know.

Cable type 1, Direct to instruments Host port with pin7 connected:
- Yamaha CJJMac, , Is this with disk? Also sold with product number M0197, without disk. Early devices (example TG100) use 1Mhz clock 8 bit, 1 Stop, No parity format.
- Korg AG-002/AG-002B, cable is same that CJJMac, comes with disk that has Apple Midi Manager driver updated by Korg(in year 1999!). I want files from that disk!

Cable type 2, Direct to instruments Host port without pin7 connected:
- Roland RSC-15APL, , No disk, but Roland is has still mac serial drivers for download.
- Kawai (product name unknown), cable is same as Roland, disk might have something interesting, because K11 support 32 midi channels with it.

Cable 3 type, Crosswired to MIDI Interface:
- MOTU
- Opcode
- Midiman
- Emagic

Cable 4 type, Direct cable to MIDI Interface:
Maybe there is not any this kind of cable for MIDI use.

More information needed what cable type and what is on the disk:
- GEM (General Music) Multimedia Kit Mac, Direct to host port cable, but what type? It has disk, but what files??

All another information is also welcome about serial cables.

EDIT:Updated with information from GaryN
EDIT2: Little more information about Yamaha Host cable
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:00:01 PM by teroyk »
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline GaryN

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Re: More information about serial cables needed
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 06:36:55 PM »
I think you're confusing yourself a little bit. It's not the cables that "come with" software, it's the devices / interfaces that use the cables that come with software - usually "drivers" of some sort.

Trying to "sort' the cable types against software is likely to be fruitless. Sure, you might accidentally fall over a bit of software from company "A" that happens to work with something from company "B" in some way it wasn't designed for - just like doctors prescribe drugs "off-label" because they happen to work for a different illness.

Your cable types 1 and 2 go back to the days before there was any MIDI or even any real serial standard on Macs. They're identical except for the pin 7 connection so in use they're interchangeable for type 2 - that is a type 1 cable will work fine on a type 2 circuit because the pin 7 will simply be ignored.

"Type 3" crosswired is the standard MIDI interface wiring because it provides bi-directional communication - something MIDI must have.

"Type 4" "direct to interface" I have never seen. I don't think it exists in practice because I've never seen a one-way (like a "play-only) MIDI interface.

The MOTU, Opcode, Midiman and Emagic interfaces are all bi-directional and use crosswired cables.

If you want to know more about serial cables (and don't blame me when it gets confusing - because it will) goto Wikipedia and search "serial port" and "RS-422".

Offline teroyk

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Re: More information about serial cables needed
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 04:03:22 AM »
I think you're confusing yourself a little bit. It's not the cables that "come with" software, it's the devices / interfaces that use the cables that come with software - usually "drivers" of some sort.

Trying to "sort' the cable types against software is likely to be fruitless. Sure, you might accidentally fall over a bit of software from company "A" that happens to work with something from company "B" in some way it wasn't designed for - just like doctors prescribe drugs "off-label" because they happen to work for a different illness.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Example cable Korg sold with drivers, because you can but it direct to instruments Host port and you can with patchbay of AMM choose midi channels of synth or midi channels of midiport. I don't have that software, but you can find that information from midimanual.pdf what have been in Korg site.

Your cable types 1 and 2 go back to the days before there was any MIDI or even any real serial standard on Macs. They're identical except for the pin 7 connection so in use they're interchangeable for type 2 - that is a type 1 cable will work fine on a type 2 circuit because the pin 7 will simply be ignored.

These cables are sold between 1995-2005. And I think that pin 7 is something to do with some Yamahas can show 32 or even 48 midichannels in one cable. And that is why I looking with drivers.

"Type 4" "direct to interface" I have never seen. I don't think it exists in practice because I've never seen a one-way (like a "play-only) MIDI interface.

I asked this type, because I have seen these kind of cable to sold, I cannot understand who need them.

If you want to know more about serial cables (and don't blame me when it gets confusing - because it will) goto Wikipedia and search "serial port" and "RS-422".

I have to say that I know something about RS-422, before I ask something. I have programmed Atari to use serialport with Yamaha TG100 RS-422 Hostport. And now I am interested in more use Mac serialports.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline macStuff

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Re: More information about serial cables needed
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 07:24:15 AM »
 ;D great topic teroyk + keen observations!

you might want to cross reference for relevant information i've collected here:
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/board,182.0.html

brings to mind similar questions that i had in regards to late 80s / early 90s serial dongles for mac/pc; ive been wondering if for example, a Logic Serial dongle for PC could be used on a mac simply by converting from rs232 to rs422 etc etc

due to the passage of time alot of this info can be very hard to put your hands on

more:
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,4919.0.html
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 09:06:26 PM by macStuff »

Offline GaryN

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Re: More information about serial cables needed
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 02:07:20 PM »
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Example cable Korg sold with drivers, because you can but it direct to instruments Host port and you can with patchbay of AMM choose midi channels of synth or midi channels of midiport. I don't have that software, but you can find that information from midimanual.pdf what have been in Korg site.
I'm sorry, but this sentence is a perfect illustration of exactly that. I can see that English is not your first language, so I'm trying my best to interpret what you're trying to say but it's difficult.

Again, Korg, for example, sold that cable and drivers as an accessory for a Korg instrument or instruments. It was probably unique to Korg because there wasn't a standard for manufacturers to follow.

These cables are sold between 1995-2005. And I think that pin 7 is something to do with some Yamahas can show 32 or even 48 midichannels in one cable. And that is why I looking with drivers.
Maybe. That would be a really poor way to get more MIDI channels though and I'm certain that Yamaha has better engineers that that. You can get virtually unlimited MIDI channels on one cable by simply encoding the data bits with whatever channel you want. Look at an Opcode Studio 5 interface setup where you can (and people do) stack units together and each one can have 16 channels on each of 16 ports (256) times the number of units - Literally hundreds of channels ALL on as little as one Mac serial cable.
"Type 4" "direct to interface" I have never seen. I don't think it exists in practice because I've never seen a one-way (like a "play-only) MIDI interface.
I asked this type, because I have seen these kind of cable to sold, I cannot understand who need them.
There are other uses for Mac serial ports besides MIDI. These cables were/are used for one-way data with all kinds of things - plotters and other drafting machinery, CNC cutters, Moving-display signage and a thousand things that can be remote-controlled etc.
I have to say that I know something about RS-422, before I ask something. I have programmed Atari to use serialport with Yamaha TG100 RS-422 Hostport. And now I am interested in more use Mac serialports.
Then you must understand that RS-422 is a standard for data transmission and that Apple, while being the single biggest company to use that standard, had no hesitation at all about "bending" the specs to suit their needs. Apple has always gone to great pains to use or develop proprietary connectors and data schemes for no good reason other than to keep the wolves of the PC world away and out of the Apple ecosystem. DIN-8 serial, ADB, ADC, Firewire, Thunderbolt, Lightning - there's no end to it. Every single one of them was promoted as a "better" way to plug A into B and every single one of them caused or still causes a pain-in-the-ass situation where you're forced to play the game their way or not at all. So when I say that the subject will be "confusing" that's because they make it that way.

Offline teroyk

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Re: More information about serial cables needed
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 01:41:16 PM »
Again, Korg, for example, sold that cable and drivers as an accessory for a Korg instrument or instruments. It was probably unique to Korg because there wasn't a standard for manufacturers to follow.

Cable is same that with Yamaha. And also Yamahas use 1Mhz serial clock and feed it to Mac HSKi data pin. So I think that Korg AMM driver might work with Yamahas too.

These cables are sold between 1995-2005. And I think that pin 7 is something to do with some Yamahas can show 32 or even 48 midichannels in one cable. And that is why I looking with drivers.
Maybe. That would be a really poor way to get more MIDI channels though and I'm certain that Yamaha has better engineers that that. You can get virtually unlimited MIDI channels on one cable by simply encoding the data bits with whatever channel you want. Look at an Opcode Studio 5 interface setup where you can (and people do) stack units together and each one can have 16 channels on each of 16 ports (256) times the number of units - Literally hundreds of channels ALL on as little as one Mac serial cable.

Yes. I know that multiplexing. Also I am interested in first multiplexing "standard"  Motu MIDI Time Piece, but I find out that Yamaha doesn't use that. Opcode Studio 5 can use it, but normally it use Opcodes own "standard" that works with many Opcode devices. Has anybody information in byte level about these?
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.