Author Topic: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410  (Read 1916 times)

Offline Ralphieboy

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Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« on: January 21, 2018, 01:31:40 PM »
Hi guys and a Happy New Year!

I experience some problems with a M-Audio Firewire 410 audio card.

- The level controller knob has no effect on volume output.
- Output sound is awful: very low, saturated, seems out of phase.

I use a TiBook 867, the card driver has been installed, have tried different cables and my monitor speakers are not responsible of the problem.

Sadly, can’t figure it out...

Offline Astroman

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 03:15:30 PM »
did you try another powersupply ? (not shure if you bus power by laptop)
given the age of the interface power regulation is the most common source of failure
(open it up and check the big capacitors near the power input - a bulky or deformed shape is some indication they're already blown or on their way to.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 03:35:41 PM »
I have tried with and without power supply: same ol’ song.
I have opened up the device and the capacitors inside are really clean...

Offline Astroman

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 03:53:24 PM »
I'd still check internal supply lines for correct voltage first (needs multimeter)
If not available (or as next step) check the interface with another system to rule out sudden software glitch.
In case no clue reveals it'll become quite challenging to track down the error... good luck.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 04:01:38 PM »
I have a multimeter at hand. Can you help me with the procedure?
For the next step, I don’t have another os9 capable macintosh with me unfortunately.

Offline macStuff

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 07:54:03 PM »
ralphieboy
can u add the following info to your post

which computer (exact model) you are testing on
(sorry just noticed u put tibook 867 https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html)
which operating system (exact version) you are testing on
which versions of the drivers you are using
thanks

im fairly sure i read that the firewire 410 has a habit of becoming damaged by users who have hotplugged while their computer is on; people dont understand u have to power off both your interface + Computer before attaching; then power up the 410, then the computer.. and do not unplug or mess with the cable while its on + operating... this is the protocol i believe that is outline by m-audio in the original box materials (which many people dont even bother to read)



Offline Astroman

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 02:45:09 AM »
yes, many FW connections are notoriously risky, extending the 'hot-pluggable' into frying domain. We burnt a lot of disk cases, until we realized it wasn't the cheapo chinese built quality, but the connection...
In that case the device isn't visible to the OS and wouldn't show up in system info anymore.
If you 'see' the interface connected, there's still the chance something is damaged, but at low probability - and tracking that down to the source is close to impossible.
You can measure voltages at chip's supply pins (look up the diagram), but it's quite fiddly for boards are sealed and may not make immediate connection with the probe - and since the circuit is 'live' you shouldn't slip.

After all I'd rather discourage the procedure. You don't seem familiar with cuircuit board handling and what would you do if you find a wrong voltage ?
Without a circuit diagram and you'd have to figure out the design yourself.
To check the unit it doesn't need OS-9. Any other computer with FW connection would do, so take it to a friend, a 'friendly' store or wherever.
Guessing from inside pics I've seen, it's not a particular great piece of audio technology, so you may take the unfortunate event as an opportunity to 'upgrade'. Old digital audio gear is dead cheap today.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 03:59:40 AM »
ralphieboy
can u add the following info to your post

which computer (exact model) you are testing on
(sorry just noticed u put tibook 867 https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html)
which operating system (exact version) you are testing on
which versions of the drivers you are using
thanks

im fairly sure i read that the firewire 410 has a habit of becoming damaged by users who have hotplugged while their computer is on; people dont understand u have to power off both your interface + Computer before attaching; then power up the 410, then the computer.. and do not unplug or mess with the cable while its on + operating... this is the protocol i believe that is outline by m-audio in the original box materials (which many people dont even bother to read)




This is for Macstuff:

- "which computer (exact model) you are testing on
(sorry just noticed u put tibook 867 https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html)"
Powerbook G4 Titanium 867Mhz 60Gb 7200rpm HDD 1Gb RAM
-"which operating system (exact version) you are testing on"
OS 9.2.2 Universall Install CD from the forum
-"which versions of the drivers you are using"
Mactron's M-Audio Mac OS9 Driver Catalog from the forum

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 04:07:14 AM »
yes, many FW connections are notoriously risky, extending the 'hot-pluggable' into frying domain. We burnt a lot of disk cases, until we realized it wasn't the cheapo chinese built quality, but the connection...
In that case the device isn't visible to the OS and wouldn't show up in system info anymore.
If you 'see' the interface connected, there's still the chance something is damaged, but at low probability - and tracking that down to the source is close to impossible.
You can measure voltages at chip's supply pins (look up the diagram), but it's quite fiddly for boards are sealed and may not make immediate connection with the probe - and since the circuit is 'live' you shouldn't slip.

After all I'd rather discourage the procedure. You don't seem familiar with cuircuit board handling and what would you do if you find a wrong voltage ?
Without a circuit diagram and you'd have to figure out the design yourself.
To check the unit it doesn't need OS-9. Any other computer with FW connection would do, so take it to a friend, a 'friendly' store or wherever.
Guessing from inside pics I've seen, it's not a particular great piece of audio technology, so you may take the unfortunate event as an opportunity to 'upgrade'. Old digital audio gear is dead cheap today.

I bought the unit as functional few days ago and the seller insists on the fact that the unit was indeed functional.
The Apple System Profiler clearly sees the unit and I did not hotswapped the unit.

I have a SantaRosa at hand with OSX and will test the unit with it.

Offline Astroman

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 07:27:47 AM »
I originally assumed your 'old and trusty' unit went bad, but if you bought it only recently (and sys profiler sees it) things are actually much better.
That 'universal install' may not cover your specific situation regarding both FW and digital audio, but that's much easier to figure out than a hardware failure.
It may make a difference if the FW unit is connected and switched on during boot and which FW extensions are active. Fingers crossed :)

Offline DieHard

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 08:01:59 AM »
I experience some problems with a M-Audio Firewire 410 audio card.
- The level controller knob has no effect on volume output.
- Output sound is awful: very low, saturated, seems out of phase.
I use a TiBook 867, the card driver has been installed, have tried different cables and my monitor speakers are not responsible of the problem.

OK, so a few questions...

1) The TI has FW built in, are you saying you are using a FW Cardbus like an Adaptec "Fire Connect" or other model in the Cardbus slot of the TI ?

2) Also, are you using an ASIO driver with the DAW application ?
And if so, try a different ASIO driver, Some apps like certain ASIO drivers over others and can cause the issues you are describing

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 09:22:22 AM »
I experience some problems with a M-Audio Firewire 410 audio card.
- The level controller knob has no effect on volume output.
- Output sound is awful: very low, saturated, seems out of phase.
I use a TiBook 867, the card driver has been installed, have tried different cables and my monitor speakers are not responsible of the problem.

OK, so a few questions...

1) The TI has FW built in, are you saying you are using a FW Cardbus like an Adaptec "Fire Connect" or other model in the Cardbus slot of the TI ?

2) Also, are you using an ASIO driver with the DAW application ?
And if so, try a different ASIO driver, Some apps like certain ASIO drivers over others and can cause the issues you are describing

Hi DieHard.

1) I was refering to the M-Audio Firewire 410 Driver (in France will call such devices "Audio Cards"). I use the built in FW port. The CardBus slot is empty on my machine.

2) I use M-Audio Firewire 410 ASIO driver with Ableton Live 1.
Anyhow, I have the same thin and poor sounding when I play an audio track with iTunes thru the M-audio Firewire 410.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 09:32:21 AM »
It may make a difference if the FW unit is connected and switched on during boot and which FW extensions are active. Fingers crossed :)

I don't understand quite well this one. Can you explain please?

Offline DieHard

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 10:02:56 AM »
Quote
2) I use M-Audio Firewire 410 ASIO driver with Ableton Live 1.
Anyhow, I have the same thin and poor sounding when I play an audio track with iTunes thru the M-audio Firewire 410.

Again, try all ASIO drivers available, Versions 1 & 2, and restart the app each time

also, try NOT routing System sound so no itunes for now; try getting the ASIO by itself working first

Offline macStuff

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 10:35:10 AM »
It may make a difference if the FW unit is connected and switched on during boot and which FW extensions are active. Fingers crossed :)

I don't understand quite well this one. Can you explain please?

he was repeating / echoing what i said about the correct procedure to connect the device to a mac/pc
u cant just plug it in when the computer is on u need to turn BOTH devices off.. then connect the fw410 and power it on BEFORE turning on the computer..

adding that there are different firewire extension versions, and to experiment with different versions
maybe we need another thread with all the firewire extensions posted?

honestly its most likely that the device is partially damaged; alot of people end up frying the m-audio firewire devices by hotplugging them; not understanding that these old interfaces + their firewire connection are not hot-pluggable like a usb device is

Offline teroyk

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2018, 10:52:30 AM »
I experience some problems with a M-Audio Firewire 410 audio card.

- The level controller knob has no effect on volume output.
- Output sound is awful: very low, saturated, seems out of phase.

Can you see firmware number from M-audio Control Panel?
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2018, 12:46:52 PM »
This thread has become very confusing BUT:

Ralphieboy: Have you tried / you should try removing the Sound Manager driver from the Ableton ASIO Folder - have ONLY the M-Audio ASIO driver in there. Easy to try and just might…
Requires a restart.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 02:17:16 AM »
Quote
2) I use M-Audio Firewire 410 ASIO driver with Ableton Live 1.
Anyhow, I have the same thin and poor sounding when I play an audio track with iTunes thru the M-audio Firewire 410.

Again, try all ASIO drivers available, Versions 1 & 2, and restart the app each time

also, try NOT routing System sound so no itunes for now; try getting the ASIO by itself working first

I only have 1 ASIO driver, the one provided by M-Audio.

With all due respect, I don't see why I should not focus first on iTunes and then concentrate on ASIOs and stuff.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 02:42:36 AM »
This thread has become very confusing BUT:

Ralphieboy: Have you tried / you should try removing the Sound Manager driver from the Ableton ASIO Folder - have ONLY the M-Audio ASIO driver in there. Easy to try and just might…
Requires a restart.

Hi Gary.

In the Ableton ASIO Folder I have only 2 items: M-Audio Firewire 410 ASIO driver and a Read Me file.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 08:07:18 AM »
OK, sorry for the quick answers with no explanation...

What I meant to say is...

1) Since iTunes uses the Sound Manager and does NOT support an ASIO driver, I realize that you have included the option to route the "System Sound" thru your interface, this creates one more variable and sometimes "locks" some interfaces up when using the system sound routing and the ASIO driver simultaneously.  So it was jut a shot, since it is usually a quick toggle-off settings to turn off routing sound manager thru the interface.

2)  Many M-Audio Interfaces have multiple ASIO drivers (the 2496 has 3) and some applications will snap crackle pop and cause all sorts of sound issues with One ASIO driver and work perfectly with another.  Also, Some applications use ASIO 1 standard and some use ASIO 2 specifications and the driver has to also match the specs.  If you the interface comes with only a single ASIO driver, download another version of it (as many as you can) and try the app with each version... 1 at a time.

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2018, 08:18:51 AM »
OK, sorry for the quick answers with no explanation...

What I meant to say is...

1) Since iTunes uses the Sound Manager and does NOT support an ASIO driver, I realize that you have included the option to route the "System Sound" thru your interface, this creates one more variable and sometimes "locks" some interfaces up when using the system sound routing and the ASIO driver simultaneously.  So it was jut a shot, since it is usually a quick toggle-off settings to turn off routing sound manager thru the interface.

2)  Many M-Audio Interfaces have multiple ASIO drivers (the 2496 has 3) and some applications will snap crackle pop and cause all sorts of sound issues with One ASIO driver and work perfectly with another.  Also, Some applications use ASIO 1 standard and some use ASIO 2 specifications and the driver has to also match the specs.  If you the interface comes with only a single ASIO driver, download another version of it (as many as you can) and try the app with each version... 1 at a time.

Great, thanx.

Do you know where can I find ASIO drivers compatible with my setup?

Offline DieHard

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2018, 08:34:34 AM »
ASIO drivers are interface specific, so you need to look thru the archives for the M-Audio Firewire 410 (or ask members here) and maybe they can post several versions of the 410 ASIO drivers, they should have different versions, if not, different file dates will be the clue

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2018, 01:01:01 PM »
I am done with this unit.

I will buy an Audiophile instead.

Offline macStuff

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2018, 03:55:09 PM »
the asio drivers should be packaged with the driver
sometimes they had multiple asio drivers as one version was tweaked for use with certain apps
and another for other apps etc.. they did this around 2001-2004 time period mostly

Offline Ralphieboy

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 05:12:40 AM »
I sent back the device to the seller and with Windows something it works very well.
I am waiting for the Audiophile (paid 20 bucks shipping included) and will tell the forum ASAP if this one is working with my setup.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2018, 07:53:33 AM »
We are all crossing fingers for you...

Offline Mardeec

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 03:51:22 PM »
I sent back the device to the seller and with Windows something it works very well.
I am waiting for the Audiophile (paid 20 bucks shipping included) and will tell the forum ASAP if this one is working with my setup.

I had the same experience trying to get an FW410 to work with an iMac G3/500Mhz.  I never could get it to work, despite hours of help from the wonderful people on this forum.  The Audiophile was an easy install and works great, and FW410 works fine under Windows XP. 

Offline macStuff

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 04:39:26 PM »
i have an audiophile usb and i cant say id reccommend that interface to anyone with any serious intentions

Offline teroyk

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 08:18:45 AM »
All people who has Firewire 410, please check firmware version of device from M-audio Control Panel and post here and tell if it's working or not in OS 9.2.2. If you can check what firmware version shows in another operating system.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Very poor sound out of M-Audio Firewire 410
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 07:27:40 PM »
I just have to note for the record that:

If you search "Firewire 410" on the Forum, you will find an endless series of posts complaining how the 410 simply won't work in OS9 because they never bothered to release a decent driver for it.