Guide to Create a Portable External FireWire Drive for Mac OS 9 w/ Partitioning

[billyboy]

IIO,

Semantics...

The reason I mentioned OSX doing indexing is because it does not need to be manually defragged, as OS9 does. It moves the files into blocks so you wont have to. That means that OS X will start moving the OS 9 files when it does this shuffling. This is why diehard mentioned above to not mix OS9 and OS X files. If I am wrong, I am not too proud to change my view, and I will gladly listen to anyone on this site who can correct me... been trying to figure out how to archive this stuff for years and cannot find someone who knows the truth. Unfortunately, I am not willing to sacrifice 25 years of work on a Whim. I KNOW THIS... this is the moment when I need to know how to correctly do this archiving correctly, because I am about to embark on a journey of mixing almost 300 songs and I want it done correctly and I want them archived correctly. Now is the time to settle this

There has got to be some reason that die-hard mentioned not combining OS 9and OSX  files or he would not have written it in the post above. Surely there is somebody in this world who can answer the questions I have about this subject. IIO, do not think that I don't appreciate your help, because I do... I have listened to everything you posted and I'm considering it seriously. Billyboy

And by the way I type with two fingers and that is one of the reasons my answers seem disjointed

[IIO]

and I will gladly listen to anyone on this site who can correct me...

everyone has different experiences and different needs and as you might have noticed... when you ask 5 of us socalled experts you also get 7 different answers.

however, it is not so easy to help you to get things working when the goal and the conditions are not clear. we all know how it can feel when stuff doesnt work. but seriously, your anxiety and your assumptions about this and that will not solve the problem.

i am using dozens of disks with OS9 nd OSX and in my opinion it is great that i can defrag volumes up to 2 terabytes of size in OSX when needed, because you cant do that in OS9. (of course, in my OSX, i always have things like spotlight turned off - not only because of OS9 but generally)

but this doesnt mean that diehard´s idea to scrictly split it into 9/X to avoid problems would be "wrong" in any way. it is also a proven concept. just as mixing it.

defragmenting audiofiles is something i have done when MacOS 7 came out and harddisks allowed transfer speeds of 8 megabytes per seconds and had a cache size smaller than cubases buffer.

defragmentation is something you normally dont need in real life  today. including OS9.

you can record 35 tracks at once and download from bittorrent in the back and the fragmentation of your audiofiles will still be in the range of 3% and that make zero difference in maximum transfer speed or search time.

defragmentation is an outdated concept.

...

why do you bother about OSX´s influence on your data when you do not plan to connect the disk to OSX anyway? these considerations do not make much sense to me.

if you want to have a safe backup of some older audio projects, you should burn them to CD or DVD immediatly.

harddisks can burn out! they can be dropped on the floor! they can be stolen! they can be abducted by aliens!

and each of these risks is more likely than loosing all your files because the HD was formatted unideally.

if you do not have 2 backups of you immportant data as of today, THAT is what you should really bother about.

[billyboy]

I am worried that after I backup my files to the mini, that I will come back to make a change, or remix something, and the files will have been altered by OSX file software... or that they will have been corrupted by some OSX demon... lol...

[DieHard]

Dear BB,

I am so sorry if I made you paranoid about mixed boot environments with both OS X and OS 9. Some here have had years without issue when having dual boot systems with OS X and OS 9, that being said, if you search the forum, the dreaded btree 0,0 error does NOT occur in environments if OS X and OS 9 systems and external hard drives are never mixed:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2830.msg19106.html#msg19106

OS X via spotlight or simply mounting OS 9 volumes can write information to the header volume of the drive that OS 9 "first aid" will flag as an error and want to repair...however, most of the time the data can be copied off the volume, the drive can be reinitialized, and the data copied back (but a real pain in the ass).  Now, for safety sake, if you wish to keep OS X away from OS 9, then these weird anomalies when using the OS 9 disk "first aid" will NOT occur.  Also, it appears that very early versions of OS X, like 10.1,10.2, and 10.3 may not create as many issues as 10.4 or 10.5 (but this has to be verified).  Lasty, long files name that look fine in OS X... will display weird characters in OS 9... that alone, is at the very least, annoying.

Now on to defrag, some like Knez, will actually boot to OS X via a DVD and run defragment utilities on large OS 9 volumes (300GB or more)... I have never been that bold.
Also, defraging will only be needed if you are using the ext HD volumes to record and edit, if you are simply copying finished projects to the external volumes, then you will NEVER have to defrag them... this is a subtle, but important point, since you will have to make any volumes 190GB or less if you plan on defragmenting them in the future under OS 9, since Norton Speeddisk will bomb with "out of memory" errors on larger volumes.  I am guessing it cannot load all the blocks in memory that is have to relocate on volumes that are larger than 200 GB, so 190 is the safe bet.

On to OWC, I have never seen the "hardware" based RAID in their External FW enclosures NOT work with OS9.  As IIO mentioned, you said "stripping" (RAID 0) in one of you posts, which is radically different that RAID 1 (mirroring).  Stripping will give you 2 TB of high speed storage (if you use 2 one TB drives), but if either drive fails, you are fuckola... all data gone; if you RAID 2 one TB drives with RAID 1 (mirror) you get 1 TB total storage and you still have your stuff if either drive fails.  Remember, the OWC techs are great, but I am sure there are some kids there that never even saw OS 9, so don't rely on what they say or even what they print since they do not have OS 9 in the mix... it is like buying some new PC hardware and seeing if the literature says it will work with DOS. You have to try it, in general, FW400 is a very safe bet for OS 9, if it works initially, it won't have some crazy issues later, it is doesn't you'll know right away.

As a last note, I have done this with the OWC Mini Dual metal (but have not tested the maximus).  I have taken a single 1 TB Hard drive, partitioned it internally in a G4 and setup all my partitions under OS 9 and even copied data to a few volumes, then I have put it in a RAID case with an additional blank hard drive and the RAID switch flipped to mirror) and viola !!!!  It copied and mirrored all the stuff from the drive with data including partitions to the blank drive and made a healthy mirror set.  So that simulated a drive failure (one drive with stuff and one new) and the case did all the work

[billyboy]

Hey buddy,

I meant mirroring, and just used the wrong word (striping)... semantics... sorry guys, trying to relearn the lingo of the computer age of yesteryear...lol!

Diehard,

I had a friend a few years ago, who taught me to never mix the files of the two systems... you just became a second witness. I have always kept my files of the two systems separated on two computers (just like you say), and my buddy was a brilliant computer guy... I guess... lol! I do use my separate OS X computer to do some other stuff (write articles in X, etc) but the  music creation is strictly done on 9... and never the twain shall meet! I do master my OS9 mixes in  X, but those mastered tracks are done on the final mix after they leave the os9 computer, and they aren't put back onto my 9 computer after I master them.

You sound just like my friend concerning the 9 and X mixing...

I have finally decided to go with identicle dual 1 tb drives in the maximus mini (mechanical, not SSD).

Hey, I think your last paragraph answered 95% of the questions I had about setting up the device!

My maximus mini will be here tomorrow, or tuesday or wednesday, with the two mechanical 1 tb drives (uninstalled, so I don't void the maximus mini warranty by taking the drives out of the owc preinstall to initialize and partition them in OS9). If you take the drives out of the maximus that has them preinstalled, you void the warranty on all the components, but if you buy them separately from owc, and initialize, partition, and install them yourself, the warranty remains. Go figure!

Cannot wait to install them! I am going to do exactly what you said you did...

And you are right above... we want the raid mirroring to do all the work!

Hey, diehard, i also read your "low cost upgrade for G4 ssd install in the g4 drive cage" article, and it was awesome! I am doing that after this "backup procedure" is completed! What is the smallest ssd I can use to put the OS 9 and Cubase on, so I can make my main OS9 recording boot disk lightning fast? I am tired of 3 or 4 minute startup times with the old mechanical startup drives. Or could I maybe use a 1 tb ssd and do one small partition for the OS9 and cubase (maybe 60 to 189 gb), and then use the rest of the ssd space as a couple of huge 400 gig partitioned blocks for song data storage? And couldn't those be big blocks (more than 189 gb) - because they do not need defragging? Or will the large partitioned ssd drive slow down my small os9/cubase gb startup block?

What is your recommendation?

By the way.. in reference to your comments on defragging... I defragged a large volume of data recently, and I had the thing freeze up on me, also (using norton utility in OS 9).

Hey my friend, I appreciate the info. I will be downloading the supremo cubase bundle when I get this all finished, first things first. Thank you, man.  bb

[DieHard]

Hey, diehard, i also read your "low cost upgrade for G4 ssd install in the g4 drive cage" article, and it was awesome! I am doing that after this "backup procedure" is completed! What is the smallest ssd I can use to put the OS 9 and Cubase on, so I can make my main OS9 recording boot disk lightning fast? I am tired of 3 or 4 minute startup times with the old mechanical startup drives.

A small SSD even 60 GB will be more that enough for OS9 DAW apps and plugins, the EXCEPTION being Sampling. 
If you plan on using HALion or Kompakt with a huge library, then 120GB to 240GB is the ticket.  An SSD and Sampling is pure delight   Loads samples crazy fast and gives you instant access to a whole world of sounds.

Use the rest of the ssd space as a couple of huge 400 gig partitioned blocks for song data storage? And couldn't those be big blocks (more than 189 gb) - because they do not need defragging? Or will the large partitioned ssd drive slow down my small os9/cubase gb startup block?

In the past year, I have seen SSDs fail at an alarming rate; When I say alarming, I am guessing about a 1 to 4 ratio of SSD to mechanical.  So for about every 4 mechanical drives that are 3 to 4 years old, I see 1 SSD fail.  Now, those numbers don't sound all that bad, but this totally sucks ! I was under the assumption that an SSD would fail about as often as a memory stick, NOPE, much higher failure... I test RAM that is 10 years plus old and 28 out of 30 pass, so the bullshit that they fed us that SSDs are nearly impossible to fail is wrong.  Many 2014 to 2016 Macbook airs have come in with stone dead SSDs.  I have (2) Samsung pros on my desk for RMA that are less than 2 years old, so SSDs do fail.  still they are the best alternative for a DAW. If you want my advise.... then try this setup...

Use an SSD with 2 partitions, for Boot drive with all apps, plugins and samples and a second partition for current Audio projects... Current meaning what makes sense to you... 1 album worth ? maybe 2? Definitely more room than 1 or 2 songs, maybe enough for 10 to 15 ?
Then a Mirrored FW drive to backup finished song projects. Keeping an additional "Final Mixes" folder on the SSD to hold ALL fished mixes is also a nice plus for easy access.

[FdB]

Clear, concise and as usual… to the point!

…"and viola !!!!"

Who in the hell is this Viola that DieHard keeps mentioning
and what does she have to do with anything Mac OS 9
(or even OS X) related? Or is it some cryptic reference
to a musical instrument? Might be “code”?

(My sincere apologies. Could-not-stop-myself.)

But, once again… DieHard n-n-n-nails it!

Voilà!!!!

Viola… or no… Viola.
Who was that masked man... Duncan Renaldo?

[IIO]

i still dont get why anyone would like to use firewire 400 disks when there are several free internal ports in his computer available which provide faster and bigger storage for less money.

[DieHard]

Clear, concise and as usual… to the point!

…"and viola !!!!"

Who in the hell is this Viola that DieHard keeps mentioning
and what does she have to do with anything Mac OS 9
(or even OS X) related? Or is it some cryptic reference
to a musical instrument? Might be “code”?

(My sincere apologies. Could-not-stop-myself.)

But, once again… DieHard n-n-n-nails it!

Voilà!!!!

Viola… or no… Viola.
Who was that masked man... Duncan Renaldo?

Diehard is the worst speller and unfortunately misspelled words that are "real" words don't get flagged

Diehard sighs, takes another sip of coffee, and contemplates how to mail Fury a pile of Dog feces...

[FdB]

You just wait 'til I tell Viola!

Actually, I like/prefer the use of Viola.

Voilà ...is too hard to spell
or even to actually remember.
So there.

[IIO]

otoh, Voila! would make great name for a sweet baby daughter.

[mrhappy]

i still dont get why anyone would like to use firewire 400 disks when there are several free internal ports in his computer available which provide faster and bigger storage for less money.

I'm kinda paranoid and use at least both!

[billyboy]

Can you guys imagine doing this shit without coffee?

Diehard... I like the idea of making a two partition ssd  drive, One partition for the OS 9, and the deluxe download of the cubase with all the plugs, effects,  samplers - and other bells and whistles...from  this site! And then use the second partition for an  albums worth of songs in the making, and still being produced. Then I back them up on the maximus mini when completed, which maximus then mirrors. Once you get the batch of songs finished and archived, you start on the next batch. So if I used a 250  gig ssd, what would you break it into as far as gigs per each partition? 125 gig in partition 1, and 125 gig in partition 2? I don't think 10 or 15 songs worth of data would use much  more than 40 or 50 gigs, would it?

It looks like it would be between the 125 gig and 250 gig ssd. Every little bit counts when spending money on these ssd drives that might need replacing every 3 or 4 years. What would be the split numbers for how many gigs in each partition, diehard? Should I go 125 or 250? And what brand do you guys recommend?
Thanks... Billyboy blue

Hey... where did you learn how to spell voila? I used that word in an article I did once, and liked to never have found how to spell it... I thought it was wha-lah. Lol!

[DieHard]

Less than $100, use with an adapter
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/S3D7E3G250/

You don't need the 6G since your not gonna get anywhere near the 3G anyway, 3 year warranty, a "no-brainer" at that price

As for sizes, splitting in have should provide a nice size audio volume and lots of space for samples on the boot partition

[IIO]

Can you guys imagine doing this shit without coffee?

no. i consume up to 5 liters per day.

I don't think 10 or 15 songs worth of data would use much  more than 40 or 50 gigs, would it?

if you want to know how long your files are, you will be amazed to learn that you can find that out easily by pressing command-I. even better: that works on windows and linux, too.

[FdB]

“Can you guys imagine doing this shit without coffee?” - Utter blasphemy!
“I consume up to 5 liters per day.” (That’s 1.3208603 Gallons! IIO.)

Perhaps the only “paid” ad sponsor the Forum should seek,
consider... or ever even allow? Coffee!

Unless DieHard could somehow solicit and acquire a Starbucks,
life-time "free coffee" card in the exchange for himself.
(Beware those of German origin, bearing X-mas gifts.)

Usually begin with a pot of leaded java and then boost/bump
with chilled Mocha Frappuccinos®* throughout the day here.
(*Gauche perhaps & not cardiologist approved.)
Charge those paddles!

Maybe, figure total space needed for OS 9 and all DAW and other wanted apps,
double, triple, or quadruple that total and make that the size of your first partition
(boot) and leave the remaining space for the second (“working files”) partition?

And also, not unlike Mr. Happy’s expressed paranoia… and the engineering-phrase
meaning of “redundancy” …those previous “bulk” years’ of files might also be on
an additional back-up, unattached, conventional drive stored in a “safe” place.
I’m just sayin’.

And then… there's always the Dog feces threat (DFT) for deviation...
to also be considered.

But yes… Wah-la! (or Wah-Wah).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usGObvP42GM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVu6nPTVbBQ

And no Duncan Renaldo acolytes? Leo Carrillo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kvHIaGiWw
“all that real goodness and top-notch quality…”

[DieHard]

I can have as many Cafe-Lattes as i want !

[youtube]E0jYDYynBps[/youtube]

[billyboy]

Thanks for the info, guys... IIO... that key command will come in real handy, when ivaluating file space.

[macStuff]

lol
i miss Kramer

[macarone]

>the dual 1tb striped guardian maximus mini backup. Hey has anybody here used this?

This is the absolutely WORST external case I've ever tried!

If you set it to RAID 0, and one of the two drives fails: you lose EVERYTHING on BOTH drives.

If you set it to RAID 1, so that if one of the two drives fails, you still have access to your data, you find that the data on the good drive is UNAVAILABLE until you remove the good drive and put it in a good external case.

The Guardian Maximus Mini is NOT a good external case. It is a stinker.

The safety it promises is totally missing. Not only can't you access your data, bcause it doesn't mount, it DOES show up as being available to format. So after losing a bad drive, it becomes very easy to accidentally erase the good one.

No wonder the price keeps dropping.