Sawtooth to Mystic Swap

[faultywarrior]

I have a Sawtooth 500MHz machine and am planning to swap a Mystic/Gigabit Ethernet logic board, along with a dual 500MHz CPU package into it.

Is there anything I should know about, or is this a pretty straight-forward swap?  Only reason I'm bothering at all is because a Sawtooth machine, plus a Mystic board, plus dual 500MHz CPU, plus heatsink was STILL cheaper than a complete Mystic machine. 

[macStuff]

as far as i understand it.. this does not work and would indeed be "Faulty"
as the sawtooth has 3 pci slots + the mystic has 4.. how do u figure thats going to work?? 

if i had to guess id say that there was alot more sawtooths then mystics, because the sawtooth enjoyed a production time of 1 year, vs the 6 month production run of the gigabit ethernet / mystic model that followed it.

if people are charging more for a gigabit ethernet mystic.. then why not just buy a digital audio or a quicksilver.. or even an MDD? maybe u simply have an affinity for graphite blue?

i bought my 2003 MDD for 40$ i bouth my 933 qs for about the same price.. from a local classified ad;
some people just sell their stuff for next to nothing just to get rid of it, and other people stockpile and try to sell for 400% of recent market value; some people are givers; some people are takers.. know the difference and avoid the latter.

[MacOS Plus]

  A Digital Audio motherboard may have four PCI slots, but the Gigabit Ethernet motherboard has the same three as the Sawtooth.  The layout between Gigabit Ethernet and Sawtooth is virtually identical with one critical exception - different power supply.  While the main reason for this is the only other significant difference, the addition of ADC power to the AGP slot connector, it isn't the only difference in the power supply wiring.  It's not a trivial exercise to work around this, as the PS connector has two additional pins and a different pin assignment sequence.

  I have a loose Gigabit Ethernet motherboard I've never been able to even test because the power supply difference prevented me from installing it in my Sawtooth case.  So far I've been unable to locate an reasonably priced power supply for it on eBay.

[FdB]

Got a number for that power supply, or ya gonna make me go a-googling? Might be one 'round here, somewhere.

[FdB]

Yes, I Googled a bit and visited my collection again. No Gigabit Ethernet machine appeared since last time.

So (borrowing from earlier discussion with oldtimer concerning Gigabit Ethernet PS repair), IF one would choose to transfer the Gigabit Ethernet PS to the Sawtooth, along with the Gigabit Ethernet motherboard… the transition could work?

Read where a 614-0108 PS from an old 733 Digital Audio would work with the Gigabit Ethernet but haven’t checked the 22 pin config to see if the same/true.

Also, I have a 614-0137 with apparently the same output ratings as the 661-2332 (GE) but as MOS+ mentioned, there would probably be a lot of pin-swap/moving to be done in order to possibly mirror the similar 22 pin config of the GE… and without that wiring diagram, that’s really just a guess, at best… to test.

(And it seems that I’m always trying to eliminate ADC anyway.) 

And a 661-2412 (DA) reportedly is identical to the 661-2332 (GE) except no power out port for monitor.

I’d call or email Andy (I think that guy owes me a cup o’ coffee).

[macStuff]

well, i did say "as far as i understand it"
thanks for correcting me MacOS Plus

while i have used a gigabit ethernet model at an ad agency i used to work for;
i've never owned one; and dont have any first hand experience tinkering on that specific model;
also; i vaguely remember this topic or a similar swap being discussed years ago;

what happened was that at the time i posted the response; i had googled "g4 gigabit mystic motherboard" and saw an image that came up was one of a g4 with 4 pci slots; 

i've never owned a gigabit/mystic machine, they were only produced for a short period of time
i have no problem admitting when i make a mistake, so i stand corrected!

personally i dont see much benefit in swapping a sawtooth to a mystic; doesnt seem worth the trouble and/or effort to me;

this brings to mind the old post on the ppc liberation blog
http://powerpcliberation.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-most-reliable-power-macs.html
i had the same trendnet gigabit ethernet card in my sawtooth;
the only thing that would make a motherboard swap like that worthwhile to me personally
would be getting an extra pci slot!
so when i saw this topic i thought that faultywarrior was thinking along the same lines...
and i erroenously assumed that the mystic had 4 pci slots... my mistake.

[MacOS Plus]

Got a number for that power supply, or ya gonna make me go a-googling? Might be one 'round here, somewhere.

...and a-googling we go!  See the information at this link:

http://www.macpalace.com/661-2332-power-supply-338w-power-mac-g4-gigabit-ethernet-400/450/500-dual-614-0112-dps-338bb.html

22-pin connector (same as for Digital Audio model).  Three of the part numbers listed are by AcBel, the fourth PN is by Delta.  I don't care whether or not it has the AC pass-through plug as I tend to avoid attaching monitor power that way.

  The motherboard power connector is a Molex model from the "Mini-Fit Jr." series, for which I own a legit Molex-branded pin extractor tool and a pin crimping tool.  (Long story short, I originally got those to make a power tap cable for my 'improved' Xserve G4. )  That said, I really didn't want to bother getting the 'wrong' power supply just to 'rig' it, seeing as it will likely cost me the same amount of money as for the proper one.  The pinouts are out there on the internet though, should I change my mind.

Personally i dont see much benefit in swapping a sawtooth to a mystic; doesnt seem worth the trouble and/or effort to me;

  Agreed.  You gain gigabit ethernet without wasting a PCI slot, and you can use ADC monitors if you want.  That's all you gain, and you lose the ability to boot OS 8.6.  As I recall at the time these were new, the ethernet performance was well below the theoretical max bandwidth due to the rest of the system lacking sufficient horsepower to drive it properly.  (Which didn't stop Apple from making outrageous claims about the 'wonders' of gigabit ethernet and implying that competitors' PCs were crap for 'not having it built in'.)

[FdB]

Levity... remember, attempted levity.

Marlin Perkins in a hushed tone: “Jim sneaks up quietly upon the elusive Gigabit Ethernet animal in its’ native habitat.
These creatures are nearly extinct so he must indeed be very quiet and quite stealthy as he stalks the rare beast.”

Well, now of course I want to see a pic of this connector. (“There’s a little black spot on the sun today…”)

"Just to ‘rig it’"?

This is MacOS9Lives!
And, it might not cost you just as much… if you didn’t reside just north of civilization (as if this is civilization, down here).
I apologize, I’ve been dealing with customs forms today. Dreadful stuff. I’d rather put a Gigabit Ethernet motherboard in a Sawtooth with a ‘wrong’ rigged power supply.
Okay, letting go of your leg now.

How about pulling this cold front back up there? Puh-leeze?

But, we all ‘get’ the spirit of the envisioned attempt, right? And it’s... Mystic 2 Sawtooth? Tell me now, that looking at various pieces and bits that we all don’t try to figure out how to put certain things together to get some use of them... thinking this could work. (This might actually be more prevalent and commonplace in everyday life concerning a great many things if certain politicians have their way.) But enough about that.

I think faultywarrior is just trying to get something functional from (where before), he just had bits and parts. (I could be wrong, again.) Yet if not, I most certainly understand that thinking. You go boyo.

Not even gonna ask aboot yer AcBel. Ya.

And if I knew how to strike through the following (quoted-below), sacrilege, I would! ("It's the same old one as yesterday...") Happy New Year!

(Which didn't stop Apple from making outrageous claims about the 'wonders' of gigabit ethernet and implying that competitors' PCs were crap for 'not having it built in'.)

same as IT EVER was.

[faultywarrior]

ahhhhh - I hadn't checked my thread in a day and got a zillion responses!  Sorry!

MacOS Plus had the info I swore I'd seen somewhere but couldn't find - the PSU was the difference.

Biggest reason for doing this was even with all of the parts, I've still paid significantly less than I would have for a Gigabit Ethernet machine.  For some reason, they're going for crazy money (like $250US including shipping for the cheapest ones?!).  I got the complete Sawtooth for $57 and the logic board for $42.  If I can use a Digital Audio PSU, that's $33, else a Gigabit Ethernet one is $70.  Still a ways off from being even close to the complete Gigabit Ethernet machines.  As a second reason, I need all 3 PCI slots.  RTMac in the first slot, M-Audio Delta 44 in the second, and 3rd slot will be either probably for a SCSI card or perhaps a USB 2.0 Card.

Thanks for the direction.  Now I at least know where to work from.  I'm hoping to be able to drop Dual CPU into the Sawtooth since it's a 500MHz machine; I'm hoping it's got a late enough revision logic board that it can handle it.

[MacOS Plus]

"Just to ‘rig it’"?

This is MacOS9Lives!
And, it might not cost you just as much… if you didn’t reside just north of civilization (as if this is civilization, down here).
I apologize, I’ve been dealing with customs forms today. Dreadful stuff. I’d rather put a Gigabit Ethernet motherboard in a Sawtooth with a ‘wrong’ rigged power supply.
Okay, letting go of your leg now.

  If it makes you feel any better, I have a Sawtooth motherboard installed in a B&W case.   (PS connector is the same, but front panel cable required a custom adapter cable.  If anyone has a spare Sawtooth rear cover plate for the ports area, please let me know.)

How about pulling this cold front back up there? Puh-leeze?

  I thought this crazy cold snap was karma for your earlier poke aboot Canada being freezing...   <grip firmly on leg>  But seriously, they had to cancel the annual Polar Bear Dip in Lake Ontario for the first time ever, and the penguins at the Calgary Zoo had to be brought inside one night!  (You'd think Hell would be next to freeze over, but that already happened a year ago when Trump was elected US President!)

ahhhhh - I hadn't checked my thread in a day and got a zillion responses!  Sorry!

MacOS Plus had the info I swore I'd seen somewhere but couldn't find - the PSU was the difference.

Biggest reason for doing this was even with all of the parts, I've still paid significantly less than I would have for a Gigabit Ethernet machine.  For some reason, they're going for crazy money (like $250US including shipping for the cheapest ones?!).  I got the complete Sawtooth for $57 and the logic board for $42.  If I can use a Digital Audio PSU, that's $33, else a Gigabit Ethernet one is $70.  Still a ways off from being even close to the complete Gigabit Ethernet machines.  As a second reason, I need all 3 PCI slots.  RTMac in the first slot, M-Audio Delta 44 in the second, and 3rd slot will be either probably for a SCSI card or perhaps a USB 2.0 Card.

Thanks for the direction.  Now I at least know where to work from.  I'm hoping to be able to drop Dual CPU into the Sawtooth since it's a 500MHz machine; I'm hoping it's got a late enough revision logic board that it can handle it.

  Glad I could help!  Sounds like you're going to have a pretty nice setup there.  While I don't have my 'surplus' Gigabit Ethernet motherboard running, I have the next best thing - a stock Sawtooth machine with a Sonnet dual 1.8GHz upgrade.  Also, as mentioned above, in the 'spirit' of your modification I have a 400MHz Sawtooth fit into a B&W case.  I did that mod with spare parts I had years before the 'real' Sawtooth machine came into my possession.