Author Topic: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?  (Read 838 times)

Offline paule

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Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« on: January 01, 2018, 08:14:23 AM »
Hey guys.
I need help because I got stuck with an OMS problem.

Two questions:
1.) Question to all Opcode Studio5LX users:
When working in logic, when I switch between the tracks while playing I get hanging notes. Incredible, I can create cluster notes by switching between the tracks. Dozens of hanging notes. Does anyone have this problem too (or maybe solved)? In Protools it seems to work without any clusters.

2.) Question to all Opcode Studio 4 users:
Has anyone setup two studio4 in a (one cable) network successfully? The manual says it would work to connect two studio4 interfaces in a row.
I have done it here and it works in the OMS Setup without a problem. I can connect from any input to any output. BUT as soon as I start Logic/Protools the midi INPUTS (9-16) are not working their way through Logic/Protools.

Now I have to decide if I want to go with the studio5LX or the studio4. Any suggestions or solutions are welcome.

Thanks in advance,
paule.

PS: supernova777 has already opened a thread (3 years ago) which is similar, but I think a little too old. But there are good explanation about the Opcode Networking possibilities of the studio5/4.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=post;topic=473.0;last_msg=10652

Offline Astroman

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 03:59:20 PM »
a good 'seed' for hanging notes may be the midi data type 'active sensing'.
Some Roland keyboards send this in large amounts and it tends to flood buffers.
It can either be filtered or switched of at the source.
You may check your hardware synths/keys if they have 'active sensing' on.
Imho it may be of some use in a live setup, but not in a studio environment.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 06:44:46 PM »
When working in logic, when I switch between the tracks while playing I get hanging notes. Incredible, I can create cluster notes by switching between the tracks. Dozens of hanging notes. Does anyone have this problem too (or maybe solved)? In Protools it seems to work without any clusters.
Please explain how / why you're "switching between tracks while playing"
What you're describing happens when you send note-ons then somehow switch away before sending corresponding note-offs.
This shouldn't be possible in Logic by "switching tracks" - I think… and that's before we get to the dozens part…

Has anyone setup two studio4 in a (one cable) network successfully? The manual says it would work to connect two studio4 interfaces in a row.
I have done it here and it works in the OMS Setup without a problem. I can connect from any input to any output. BUT as soon as I start Logic/Protools the midi INPUTS (9-16) are not working their way through Logic/Protools.

Now I have to decide if I want to go with the studio5LX or the studio4. Any suggestions or solutions are welcome.
They DO work perfectly well used in tandem in wither of the series or series/parallel configs shown in the old post you referenced.
In either config, with the first one set to 1-8 and the second to 9-16, they operate as one interface.
The issue you describe can only happen if:
A: One of the switches are set improperly.
B: You have the "jumper" in a wrong jack.
C: You have a defective Studio 4. This is easy to check by swapping the two positions.

Finally, a 5LX is always a better choice than two 4's. It's faster, more powerful (has its own 68k proc) and can be set to different memorized configurations without using OMS - very handy.

Offline macStuff

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 10:50:12 PM »
personally i disagree with garyn (re choosing a studio5 over a studio4) but other than that i agree with garyn's logical breakdown of what could possibly be wrong..

i personally would choose the studio 4 for the simple reason that it offers more versatile networking possibilities and compatibility / interchangability (is that a word? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchangeability ok i guess so, lol!! ) with the Motu MTP units design from S&S Research, and you can usualy always find a studio 4 or MTP available to pickup to replace any parts wheras studio 5s tend to be rare in my neck of the woods.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 03:08:13 AM by macStuff »

Offline paule

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2018, 02:29:55 AM »
Hey guys,
thanks for your interesting thoughts and the time you took to write it all down. I really appreciate it.
Mmh, the decision between both units (studio 5lx and studio4) isn't made at all.

1. problem: Studio 4 doesn't react in network to INPUTS 9-16:
GaryN offered two interesting solutions:
>>>> C: You have a defective Studio 4. This is easy to check by swapping the two positions.

Already swapped the units. Now INs on 9-16 whatever I swap. No difference. :-(

>>>> B: You have the "jumper" in a wrong jack.

Are there any jumpers to set (beside the buttons on the front)? I don't see any jumpers to set on the studio4 (or are they hidden in the unit itself). The manual says nothing about "jumpers".

NOTE: All the INs and OUTs work correctly when I am directly in the "OMS Setup". In this way I can network every input to any output. The difficulties only start when working in Logic or in Protools: no INS 9-16 anymore. I expected that I have to setup something special in Logic or Protools to work with two networked studio5. But I haven't found what to do...

2.) Problem about "cluster"/hanging notes (Studio 5LX):
I have found a workaround. Hanging notes only appear when Logics midi connection is set to "OMS". When you switch tracks with the cursors while playing keyboards you get this "hanging notes".
Workaround: Set in Logic the midi connections to "Logic built-in drivers" and check also OMS to work additionally with the built in drivers, every time I switch the tracks (while playing keyboards) there are NO hanging notes anymore. Crazy but maybe an OMS issue in Logic?!

3.) Studio5LX or studio4 competition:
I am still not convinced which one delivers better midi timing, because I am using only ONE midi connection (modem port (gport) for all my midi). I have already ordered a Keyspan USB to serial converter with TWO serial to make some test with TWO connections. Maybe the Keyspan USB has better timing than the gportG4 on my modem port.
But I have read good and bad things about USB Midi .... But with two serial USB connections I could connect both studio4 without any problem. But the USB midi timing... mmh ....

4.) Soft Synth Timing:
I don't start here a new topic what shocked me about the softsynth timing I made some test last week. It let me think to go back to hardware units because of a better and especially constant and steady timing. But that's another story ... :-)

Best regards,
paule.

Offline macStuff

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2018, 02:55:22 AM »
USB keyspan will not be better than the gport.
the gport is more than capable.

what version of logic are you using?
what version of protools?

please add a complete detail of your setup
versions/hardware etc the whole 9

your reluctant to answer garyn's question about how / why you are switching tracks while playing back??? why?

Quote
NOTE: All the INs and OUTs work correctly when I am directly in the "OMS Setup".
this should show u right there that it is indeeed setup + working properly..
and that theres some other conflicting setup info perhaps with your  software ie: logic/protools
in this type of scenario where it works in one app, but not in another.. its logically HAS to be a fault of the software in question, try another DAW other than logic/protools and lets hear the verdict
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 03:13:32 AM by macStuff »

Offline paule

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2018, 08:18:40 AM »
Hey guys,
I don't switch tracks when playing back, I switch tracks really fast when recording. And if I am a little bit too fast in switching from one track to the other, I get this hanging notes. Annoying because I have to shut down the synths and restart.

My system:
Protools Mix with 4 Cards and 3 888/24 and 2x1622
Protools 5.1.3
Logic 6.4.3
OMS 2.3.8
Opcode 5LX or Opcode 4 (gport G4)
a bunch of hardware samplers and synths (Akai S6000, Emu 6400, Nordlead2, GEM rp-x, Roland JV1080 ...)

Best regards,
Paule.

PS: Tomorrow I will check the Keyspan USB-to-serial adapter. But if you ask me, I would like to continue working with the old gport, because I have read a lot about USB Midi and glitching midi over the time.


Offline macStuff

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2018, 11:07:17 AM »
like i said before if everything in OMS setup works fine, then its most likely an error thats related to your Logic TDM setup, (or Logic Environment settings?)

all stop (as garyn would say)
and try to use any other DAW software (disregarding your TDM setup entirely... ie: midi only)
and check to see if it also works perfectly there.. then you have isolated the problem and can
direct your attention to the real source of the problem

good luck!
and happy new year

Offline GaryN

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2018, 07:23:10 PM »
>>>> B: You have the "jumper" in a wrong jack.

Are there any jumpers to set (beside the buttons on the front)? I don't see any jumpers to set on the studio4 (or are they hidden in the unit itself). The manual says nothing about "jumpers".
What I meant by "jumper" was that you have to have the first St4 connected with Port A and then "jumper"  from Port B to Port B on to the second one. >>Not Port B "Thru"<< This is the way they must be connected for then to operate as "one" using a single-cable config.
2.) Problem about "cluster"/hanging notes (Studio 5LX):
I have found a workaround. Hanging notes only appear when Logics midi connection is set to "OMS". When you switch tracks with the cursors while playing keyboards you get this "hanging notes".
Workaround: Set in Logic the midi connections to "Logic built-in drivers" and check also OMS to work additionally with the built in drivers, every time I switch the tracks (while playing keyboards) there are NO hanging notes anymore. Crazy but maybe an OMS issue in Logic?!
Are you by some chance trying to switch tracks while recording without stopping? As in: disarm the first and arm / switch to the second on the fly? Not that it really matters (because if you found a setting that works, then problem solved, but while I don't use "old" Logic, so I'm not certain) but I seriously doubt they expected you to do that.
3.) Studio5LX or studio4 competition:
I am still not convinced which one delivers better midi timing, because I am using only ONE midi connection (modem port (gport) for all my midi). I have already ordered a Keyspan USB to serial converter with TWO serial to make some test with TWO connections. Maybe the Keyspan USB has better timing than the gportG4 on my modem port.
But I have read good and bad things about USB Midi .... But with two serial USB connections I could connect both studio4 without any problem. But the USB midi timing... mmh ....
Let me make a statement: 95% of what you read on the internet about "MIDI Timing" is bullshit - pure uninformed bullshit.
Let me make another:  99% of what you read on the internet about "USB MIDI Timing" is bullshit - pure uninformed bullshit.

There is no "MIDI timing" as in some sort of accurate clock to keep time with the music and drop the notes in the right places except in your DAW.
The only "timing" that takes place in a serial port / connection - old Mac serial or USB - is the data clock that keeps the stream moving at the rate designated by the serial protocol.

That's why there are MIDI interfaces. They are what buffer / store the MIDI bytes as they come in at a far faster rate than the MIDI protocol, then clock it out again at the MIDI protocol rate. Note: USB stands for Universal Serial Bus. It has NO special protocol for MIDI. That's also why a Keyspan has no problem turning ONE USB port into TWO RS-422 and sending MIDI through both - there are NO special timing requirements within the USB system for MIDI and the USB data rate is faster than the two serials combined. That's also why performance is better with two St4's if you use the TWO-cable hookup if (important if) you're sending enough MIDI down the one cable to potentially choke the stream. For example, I always use TWO serial ports (created with ONE Keyspan) because I often send MTC down one port for tape sync and that will screw up MIDI timing very quickly with one line only. The timing bytes must get and do get priority over notes which can cause those notes to land less accurately.

When people give you long-winded descriptions about their superior "MIDI timing over USB" gadgets, ask them if they've also bought into stuff like Audioquest $100 USB cables too…'cause they "sound" better, right? Most of MIDI-over-USB complaints are directly due to manufacturers implementing it on the cheap - as in too cheap to even include / use a standard MIDI connector and an interface that works. You can get away with leaving quality interface circuitry out up to a point - then the data overruns and underruns just turn everything to shit.

Lastly, the St5 IS a better -performing unit that two St4's can possibly be due to its built-in 68000 processor. It can easily handle a massive amount of MIDI incoming over both ports and distribute it out to any or all MIDI outs with perfect timing because it has the buffer memory and the accurate clock built in. This is a discussion in extremes though, a dual-St4 pair will keep up just fine until the very limit - and that limit is different for everybody because no two setups are alike or used exactly the same way.

I'm tired now…

Offline paule

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Re: Opcode Studio5LX or Studio4?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2018, 10:34:02 AM »
Hi GaryN,
many thanks for your great explanation. And thanks a lot for the time you took. You have convinced me that studio5 is the better. Because it has the better processor it really makes sense.

Thanks a lot,
paule.