Author Topic: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?  (Read 15880 times)

Offline Jubadub

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I have been wondering: I have seen discussions on the web about people's desire to create OS 9 drivers for G5 hardware, and this made me think if there's currently any group of people, be it on this forum and/or else, that you guys may know of that is working on getting G5s, particularly the Quad Core, to boot OS 9.

I simply would like to be in touch with them, and while I realize how absolutely insane is the idea of getting any G5 to EVER boot OS 9, I still have a big interest in this, and in reaching out to those people (if they are out there).

Offline Daniel

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2017, 03:47:04 AM »
The people who have any chance of getting this to happen are ELN and nanopico. They are the most knowledgable about the internals of the NanoKernel and the Trampoline.

Offline nanopico

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2017, 08:36:52 AM »
I have a few views on this.
The first is that anything is possible. The requirements (usually time and money) are the biggest barriers. This would take a huge amount of time and at this point not enough is known about certain internal workings that would get this working. 
More knowledge of the inside of OS 9 is needed and we are gaining this, it just takes time and a lot of it. Not only that, but man hours are expensive monetarily.
Right now it's easier to use the G4's to gain this knowledge as all of them are of the same basic hardware (this is a very extreme generalization).  Once the all G4 hardware is supported then it's possible to move on to the G5.

As far as the G5 though, the earlier once are more likely to get working.  The later models that ditched the PCI bus will have some more difficulty.

So here is where the G5 sits and will sit for some time.  The trampoline (second stage boot loader that sets up a lot of hardware) is the first major road block.  Knowledge of it's internal workings are theoretical at best right now. We are working at it as it will absolutely be needed to even get things like the mini and other partially working systems (Xserve among others).  That will be the first step to getting it all working on a G5.  From there, I actually don't think it will be extremely difficult to get the rest of the system working, but there would still be significant work on the nanokernel and 68K emulator.  By the time we get to even attempting G5, I do believe the knowledge will be there and will just be time needed to write correct drivers for the hardware.

Now here is the reason for my thoughts above.
As of right now it is possible to boot a G5 up to the point of it starting the nanokernel at which point it fails so early that getting debug output is basically not an option.  To even get some output will require the hardware to be setup and running.  To get this happening about 80% of the hardware has to be disabled or removed from the device tree (mostly removed). Very important hardware had to be disabled such as the memory controller (not to be confused with the MMU on the CPU), PCI buss, power management, all sensors, USB, FW. Video had to be greatly modified, and almost all interrupt controllers.  The interrupt controllers actually don't seem to hold it, but how the hardware is  configured in the G5 certain hardware beyond some interrupt controllers would only disable if the interrupt controller is disabled.  OS 9 recognizes some hardware incorrectly so it really messes with stuff. It's also very dangerous if you don't want a large paper weight.  When I worked on the possibility of OS 9 on the G5, my only G5 at the time almost became a brick.  It was extremely hard to get it to boot as it was not possible to get to open firmware or reset the nvram from the keyboard.  So is it possible to boot? Yes. Is it safe? No. Can you boot far enough to do anything? Not even close. It can't even boot far enough to finish booting.

One hardware issue is the SATA ports/bus.  On the G5 only AHCI is supported and not IDE.  So essentially proper full SATA driver and support will need to be added to the system.  This can be done now by writing an system extension/driver to accomplish this, but that has not happened.  It hasn't been done because it was far easier to have IDE busses emulate SCSI for boot and such. Once SATA really came around, OS 9 was pretty much irrelevant to the hardware manufactures.  It had no value to anyone at the time to create these extensions.
So in theory, this could be worked on and developed using the G4 and non-mac SATA  cards.  Again think time.

Take all this with a grain of salt though as a lot of it is based on my knowledge and opinion.

If I get some time I will post the OF commands required to boot OS 9 on the G5 so that you can have your own giant paperweight.  Though I do believe I owe someone instructions on setting up a late model iBook G4. That would come first.

 Seriously though, the G5 doesn't do much more that crash and burn.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline Jubadub

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2017, 11:13:09 AM »
That was a perfect answer, I 100% agree with everything that I could relate to. Very reasonable and well-informed, very, very far ahead of my current technical understanding on things. :)

And you can be certain I would love to eventually have those OF instructions to get my own giant paperweight!

Currently, I only have G3s (no G4s) with me, so I don't have any incompatible G4 to tinker around with, but do we have a list of 100% incompatible or partially-compatible G4s? (By that, I mean those which you guys haven't managed to make 100% work yet.)
I might look into getting them, and see if I will invest enough time and dedication to reach a point where I can attain knowledge and hands-on experience that is at all relevant for the goal of making more machines capable of booting OS 9. Another brain might be useful. Needless to say, I have much catching up to do.

Offline nanopico

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2017, 11:38:22 AM »
The only machine that is currently %100 not compatible is the mac mini.
All other G4's work at some level.  Some of them are painful to get an install on and some have really weird issues.  I know there are odd sound issues that have been found and I know that some of the notebooks have an issue with the track pad being so slow that it is unusable.
Airport extreme, usb 2 and fw 800 are not support. Airport extreme does not work at all. USB always operates at 1.1 and FW always at 400.

So that the state.  I don't think there is a definitive list of all machines and their exact state.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline Jubadub

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2017, 11:52:47 AM »
Thanks! I'm already arranging things so I can order a Mac Mini G4 (1.5GHz version), which should arrive in a month or two. Hopefully that will be enough time for me to study what I need to know before I start tinkering... I'll hunt down those Mac Mini threads here and elsewhere. :)

Offline ELN

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2017, 04:40:03 PM »
The “architecture” of the classic Mac OS helps us out here. The high-level 68k environment is neatly abstracted from the processor by the NanoKernel and Emulator, but remains tightly coupled to peripheral hardware.

So, if you can persuade the Trampoline not to freak out too badly, then the NanoKernel and Emulator will practically run on a toaster. I have used this property on the Mac mini to display debug strings from an otherwise crippled MacOS environment. (If you have a mini, could you help us out by running the latest debug ROM?)

Here’s what we’ve reverse engineered:
Trampoline structures: cracked in CDG5
Trampoline code: Powermax is making rapid progress
NanoKernel: cracked in CDG5
Emulator: untouched
68k ROM: I am making pretty good progress at github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom

Offline Jubadub

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2017, 09:18:24 PM »
(If you have a mini, could you help us out by running the latest debug ROM?)
Certainly. I've just ordered one, which should arrive in 1-2 months (thanks to it being an international order, and due to overall slowness from the post office in my country), but once it's here, I'll make sure running the latest debug ROM will be the first thing I do, and then report back the output.

Offline Jubadub

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 05:35:15 PM »
Just a little update: I'm going to pick up my Mac Mini G4 1.5GHz next Saturday. Stay tuned. :)

Offline Naiw

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2017, 09:41:11 AM »
I think it’s quite difficult to get OS 9 running on the G5.

First the obvious things discussed above; but the G5 also has some differences in the pagetable handling and BAT registers was absent on the G5 if I recall properly; either way both are utilitised by Mac OS <=9. The cache is a bit different as well and finally certain instructions commonly used with old software has to be trapped and emulated (I don’t remember exactly which ones, but I think it was essentially all ”with update” instructions)
But solving this is most likely the ”easy” part.

The trickiest part is probably that Mac OS 9 has no knowledge (read driver) for the bridge chipsets used in the G5, no SMC drivers (beside I’m not sure you could poke the Fan watchdog from an MPTask; if not expect jet mode) and on top that drivers for pretty much everything else.

It would probably be more realistic to try getting it booting under QEMU/KVM-PR on a G5.

Offline teroyk

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 03:17:44 PM »
It would be very hard to get G5 to boot to OS 9 even modified.
There is some good stuff for running run OS 9 3Dfx-games on classic mode in G5 Quad:
http://macglide.sourceforge.net
So it would be possible to make ASIO and OMS/Freemidi/AMM support in same way for classic mode. Is there documentation about how to call OSX from classic?

macStuff

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 03:40:36 PM »
want another opinion?
theres more important things to do with the limited time we all have on this planet

move on, find something that will offer more personal rewards
like composing your own music, walk your own path etc
(insert spiritual mumbo jumbo bs here)

the G5 has a great OS that runs perfectly fine.
our old friends OSX Panther 10.3.9 + Tiger 10.4.11;
those osx versions were designed for it + rigorously Q&A'd + tested.. etc

your time + efforts would be better spent working within the established boundaries
ie: programming software that runs on those OSes; utilizing the existing frameworks + api's that the software developers who created all the osx versions of our favourite software did back in 2002/2003

there are many many more ATTAINABLE goals that can provide you with the "progress" + "breakthrough" that you crave + desire, provided you take the blinders off and open your eyes

« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 09:19:45 PM by macStuff »

Offline teroyk

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 04:47:05 PM »
theres more important things to do with the limited time we all have on this planet

But there is only limited numbers of G3-G4 macs on this planet after our time  ;)

macStuff

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 09:22:04 PM »
one of the most important performance jump in processors in my mind was the jump to Intel Core Duo in 2006;

intel core 2 duo/quad kicked the CRAP out of the G5;
stop worrying about the G5, your electric bill will thank you

just build a hackintosh; itll be far more expandable + fruitfull

its funny because leopard + snow leopard are pretty much almost "Vintage" now
all you need is a Intel Core motherboard that supports GMA950 and iatkos v7 or S3 and you are
set to create a far more energy efficient machine

if you want something WORTHWHILE to work on;
get OS9 to run natively on an INTEL core 2 duo cpu!
now THAT would kick ass!


Offline darthnVader

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2018, 12:17:38 AM »
one of the most important performance jump in processors in my mind was the jump to Intel Core Duo in 2006;

intel core 2 duo/quad kicked the CRAP out of the G5;
stop worrying about the G5, your electric bill will thank you

just build a hackintosh; itll be far more expandable + fruitfull

its funny because leopard + snow leopard are pretty much almost "Vintage" now
all you need is a Intel Core motherboard that supports GMA950 and iatkos v7 or S3 and you are
set to create a far more energy efficient machine

if you want something WORTHWHILE to work on;
get OS9 to run natively on an INTEL core 2 duo cpu!
now THAT would kick ass!

OS 9 native on an Intel or X86 cpu, near as it could be to imposible.

RISC Big Endian OS.

Now getting the Blue Box to run on Tiger for Intel, that is a goal.

Really, Rosetta on Tiger emulates a full G3 CPU to the point that it shows up in the "Device Tree". So it shouldn't be that hard to get the Blue Box to use it.

macStuff

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2018, 03:11:59 AM »
i loved the tiger OS personally that was a great time for mac; i was pissed when i bought an imac in 2008 and found out i couldnt run tiger.

Offline darthnVader

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 07:05:17 AM »
i loved the tiger OS personally that was a great time for mac; i was pissed when i bought an imac in 2008 and found out i couldnt run tiger.

I should be possible to run Tiger in Qemu-system-x86 on any modern system with KVM and PCI Passthough of a Bios based Graphics card that Tiger has GFX drivers for.

Really you just need to pass an old Hackentoch bootloader to qemu as a Kernel file. I don't remember what Bootloader we where using in the Tiger days, but the "boot" file should work as a Kernel to qemu, likely you would need one of the old Graphics injector Kext files the set the .properties in the Device Tree to allow the GFX drivers to match in Name Space.

Offline Naiw

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 09:54:09 AM »
one of the most important performance jump in processors in my mind was the jump to Intel Core Duo in 2006;

intel core 2 duo/quad kicked the CRAP out of the G5;
stop worrying about the G5, your electric bill will thank you

just build a hackintosh; itll be far more expandable + fruitfull

its funny because leopard + snow leopard are pretty much almost "Vintage" now
all you need is a Intel Core motherboard that supports GMA950 and iatkos v7 or S3 and you are
set to create a far more energy efficient machine

if you want something WORTHWHILE to work on;
get OS9 to run natively on an INTEL core 2 duo cpu!
now THAT would kick ass!

Actually I find this very odd cause it’s the total opposite of my own experience.

I didn’t feel the x86 macs caught up with the G5 quad until around 2009/2010.


Offline Astroman

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 01:51:40 AM »
imho it largely depends on (specific) code and io-programming.

I started out Prolog programming for technical/database applications (read non AI centered) with MacProlog during the days of M68k. Later switched to their WinProlog system when they ceased the Mac Line for lack of customers.
The systems are conceptually very similiar and there's a system independant benchmark included, that yields at least 20 times higher scores on Intel if you take emulation and clockrate into account (I ran it on 450/1000 Mhz PPCs).
Since that's a compiler/interpreter only dealing with the CPU, there are no side effects from the OS environment.
Huge caches at full CPU clockrate is what makes all the difference pro Intel.

Another thing I noticed with SSD disk-io: effective data transfer rates are way less than tech specs might suggest. I appreciate them for less heat and noise, but performance under OS-9 is plain ridiculous.


macStuff

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Re: PowerMac G5 Quad Core and OS 9.2.2 - Any group of enthusiasts on this?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 02:33:55 PM »
Actually I find this very odd cause it’s the total opposite of my own experience.

I didn’t feel the x86 macs caught up with the G5 quad until around 2009/2010.

well i never used a quad G5 so there you go.. i have the single CPU 1.8ghz pci-x G5 now, but i didnt even own a G5 untill i purchased this one cheap around the time snow leopard arrived. but even it sucks way too much AC $$ juice for my liking, and was somewhat unstable; i cant imagine what the quads would have pulled from 2005-2008
im sure alot of G5 users electric bills were pretty high in that time period!

in 2006, for the work i was doing, the intel powered imacs machines were a godsend
for me it felt like the first REALLY capable multi-thread multi-cpu computer.. and i was like wow! now THIS
is what the dual G4's were trying to be... but failing at it hard. i really REALLY disliked the UI changes tthat were introduced with leopard 10.5, but Tiger was perfect for me at the time.

tiger on intel was fanastic for what i was doing at the time, which was quickly cmd-tabbing around different adobe/macromedia apps aswell as 3d / Photoshop / Illustrator / After Effects Graphics
 
i had the pleasure of using the first Mac Pro's running Tiger, and i was in awe; but! i still loved mac os 9 and was still upset they couldnt have let os9 continue on seperately for those that cared for the old os, u know, the way mac had the Apple II + Macintosh seperate lines back in the day.. i never understood why they couldnt continue to support + develop the old os for those people that chose to use it still!

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,147.0.html
2006 seems so far away now when i think about it!
i might have to dig up that old post i did on the forum here about hacking tiger onto the 2008 imac i have!
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,308.msg454.html
i thought i posted about it on m9lives but maybe my post was nuked by a certain spaniard

« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:45:24 PM by macStuff »