need to install os9/Classic in Tiger so software will install?

[Anna Log]

Hi. 1) I recently went from a 30GB to a 120 GB int hdd, cloned the original hdd to a 40GB partition and did a fresh install of Tiger to the first 80GB partition. Only to find out that software like Photoshop (5 or Elements) won't install because the VISE installers want to see OS9 apparently. Is that correct? Is anyone aware of not being able to install software in Tiger without OS9 or Classic? 2) Assuming that's the problem I came here and tried to dL 0S9, and then drag it to both partitions. On the cloned Tiger partition, a script editor opens and says it can't read a dictionary... what?!! And on the fresh Tiger partition it opens and says I need to have OS 9 already installed, which is what I thought I was trying to install!!! 3) Maybe the problem is not having checked "OS9 Drivers" when I originally formatted and made the partitions. Is there a way to check?  I did it about 3 years ago and then couldn't get back to this until recently, so I don't remember. And if that's the problem, can I just reformat the partition where I want Tiger and all the software installed fresh? Ir do I have to erase the whole 120GB hdd and repartition and re-clone etc?? (I had to hold my breath while cloning the first time, hoping the full original 30GB hdd could get through it!). I am doing the fresh install because for years the Apple "Geniuses" told me I meeded to, that the software wasn't installed correctly on the one-year-old Powerbook I'd bought... but now it's hard to find drivers and updates even for Tiger let alone OS9. Thanks in advance!

[Anna Log]

ps. I should have mentioned that I had moved my original System 9 folder to an ext hdd to make room on the original 30GB int hdd, but that ext hdd has failed (and Disk Warrior couldn't reconstruct it).

[GaryN]

Only to find out that software like Photoshop (5 or Elements) won't install because the VISE installers want to see OS9 apparently. Is that correct?

Probably. It would be typical for the installer to have a step where it checks for a compatible System Folder.

Is anyone aware of not being able to install software in Tiger without OS9 or Classic?

Not sure, but not surprising. Your problem is with the installers  -  not the apps.

2) Assuming that's the problem I came here and tried to dL 0S9, and then drag it to both partitions. On the cloned Tiger partition, a script editor opens and says it can't read a dictionary... what?!! And on the fresh Tiger partition it opens and says I need to have OS 9 already installed, which is what I thought I was trying to install!!! 3) Maybe the problem is not having checked "OS9 Drivers" when I originally formatted and made the partitions. Is there a way to check?  I did it about 3 years ago and then couldn't get back to this until recently, so I don't remember. And if that's the problem, can I just reformat the partition where I want Tiger and all the software installed fresh? Ir do I have to erase the whole 120GB hdd and repartition and re-clone etc?? (I had to hold my breath while cloning the first time, hoping the full original 30GB hdd could get through it!). I am doing the fresh install because for years the Apple "Geniuses" told me I meeded to, that the software wasn't installed correctly on the one-year-old Powerbook I'd bought... but now it's hard to find drivers and updates even for Tiger let alone OS9. Thanks in advance!

ps. I should have mentioned that I had moved my original System 9 folder to an ext hdd to make room on the original 30GB int hdd, but that ext hdd has failed (and Disk Warrior couldn't reconstruct it).

AAARRGH! Maybe the best thing would be for you to start over. List and explain exactly what you want to do - what you want to end up with.
I suspect you're in waay to deep with cloning and bouncing and now trying to diagnose just exactly where things went sideways.
The solution is probably going to involve starting over from scratch.

Don't feel bad…happens sometimes.

[Anna Log]

thank you. I want to install Final Cut (4/5) and MOTU DP and Photoshop on my G4 Powerbook on a partition with a fresh install of Tiger 10.4. Photoshop wouldn't install because the VISE installer wanted to see OS9. I had no luck downloading an OS 9 system folder here.  I read the instructions for intalling Classic, but either I did it wrong or it didn't work.

[GaryN]

…on a partition with a fresh install of Tiger 10.4.

OK, great! Questions:

1) Are you using an actual Apple Tiger install CD or DVD? If so, it contains a full OS9 System Folder to be installed to enable Classic.
    When properly installed, you should be able to get the VISE to see the OS9 System. So, again, do you have an actual Apple Tiger install CD or DVD?
2) Final Cut 4/5……… I assume that's Final Cut Express 4? (That's one for OSX.)
3) MOTU DP……… What version? OSX or OS9?
 and…Photoshop 5 makes one for OS9.
I'm trying to determine the best way to set up / partition your installation to run your workflow.
If the MOTU is OSX, then your install will be OSX + Classic for P-Shop.
If the MOTU is OS9, you have a different issue that's going to require a dual-boot machine because OS9 MIDI won't run in Classic.

Holla back…

[Anna Log]

Thanks again. Yes, I own a Tiger 10.4.6 Retail Install DVD, and I haven't been able to find OS9 on it ...I've been told both that it does and doesn't have it, so please tell me how to find it! I only need Classic to be able to install software like Photoshop 5. (The rest is just for overview: I will be installing FCP 4 then updating as many Studio apps that meet the min sys reqs for FCP5 Universal as possible, but not all do. I have MOTU DP5.  I will have dual boot but the second partition will just be to clone my original hdd which has a lot of software and drivers that I am having difficulty finding. I haven't found a "Tiger lives" group :•) In fact for 2 years TWC told me the problem was my Powerbook, but it turns out they now admit they don't support Tiger, which I only got them to admit after I found out I can access the internet at Barnes+Noble and Wegman's grocery store with it. However I can't do updates at B+N, the option is grayed out so they must block that somehow. And wi-fi is intermittent during the day at our local Wegman's so downloads can only be done after around 11pm. The only way I've been able to do all the 10.4 updates without issues was visiting a small town Canadian farm. So all respect to everyone using OS9, but I'm having enough trouble with even 10.4)

[Anna Log]

Is there any way to check if the issue is failing to install the OS 9 drivers when I first partitioned the new int hdd?

[Anna Log]

I definitely can't find OS9 on my Tiger disc. I do still have 2 versions of OS9 downloaded from here but don't know how to open them.

[GaryN]

Wow… so much to unpack - so little time. Seriously, I'm in the Napa Valley where the whole friggin' world is on fire but I'll do what I can here.

I haven't found a "Tiger lives" group :•)

Well, there's this: https://tigerosx.wordpress.com/  and this:  http://ppcluddite.blogspot.com/  site has a bunch of PPC - related sites full of stuff.

In fact for 2 years TWC told me the problem was my Powerbook, but it turns out they now admit they don't support Tiger, which I only got them to admit after I found out I can access the internet at Barnes+Noble and Wegman's grocery store with it. However I can't do updates at B+N, the option is grayed out so they must block that somehow.

As if you could possibly get a cable company customer rep who has any real knowledge at all! All they do is read scripts of bullshit answers for minimum wage. …and yes, public retailer internet portals often block big data transfers like OS downloads. You need to cure your home internet problem. The fact that you're using Tiger is irrelevant. It accesses the internet just fine. You need to get it set up properly. It is possible that the TWC server won't co-operate with old Mac automated setup functions.

Now to:

Thanks again. Yes, I own a Tiger 10.4.6 Retail Install DVD, and I haven't been able to find OS9 on it ...I've been told both that it does and doesn't have it, so please tell me how to find it!

AND

Is there any way to check if the issue is failing to install the OS 9 drivers when I first partitioned the new int hdd?

It's likely you don't see an OS9 option on the install disc because you don't have OS9 drivers installed, so the all-intelligent Apple installer isn't offering you the option. It would, of course, be nice if it would bother to tell you why, but hey, that's what we're here for.

Do this:
1) Boot Tiger - the one already installed is fine.
2) Launch Disk Utility
3) Select the top line - the main line for the whole drive
4) In the window, select "Get Info"

In the info window there will be a line "OS9 drivers installed" then a yes or no.

Now I gotta run.

[Anna Log]

First, I'm very sorry that the Napa Valley is burning, and that you are there. I hope that you and your family including any pets can stay safe!!

Thank you for the information. Especially how to check if Mac OS 9 Drivers are installed, which they are!!! (As I hoped, three years ago I still contemplated using OS9 :•)

I bought an Edimax USB wifi adapter but the fine print says it doesn't work with Tiger. I guess they're meant for Raspberry Pi.

At this point I have 3 or 4 of this site's versions of OS 9 downloaded. Can't open/mount sea bin or sitx. From the ISO image 2 discs mounted, one Mac Standard and one Mac Extended, but Classic can't use either, says they are read only ()

[GaryN]

First, I'm very sorry that the Napa Valley is burning, and that you are there. I hope that you and your family including any pets can stay safe!!

Thank you for the information. Especially how to check if Mac OS 9 Drivers are installed, which they are!!! (As I hoped, three years ago I still contemplated using OS9 :•)

I bought an Edimax USB wifi adapter but the fine print says it doesn't work with Tiger. I guess they're meant for Raspberry Pi.

At this point I have 3 or 4 of this site's versions of OS 9 downloaded. Can't open/mount sea bin or sitx. From the ISO image 2 discs mounted, one Mac Standard and one Mac Extended, but Classic can't use either, says they are read only ()

Thanks for the concern. We had one very close call on Wednesday and we're looking at one more worrysome period Friday PM through Saturday, but so far we're unscathed.

OS9 drivers are there = good.

Your Edimax requires an Intel-based 10.6 or better Mac. However, this is still puzzling. Your G4 should access the net with NO problems.
Open the Internet Connect app. Since you can connect at B&N, you're set on "automatic". This sets a connection to the router. If you have a combination router/cable modem that won't connect, open Preferences/Network. At the bottom, click the "Assist Me" button. That will open the "Network Connection Assistant" and that will step you through whatever doesn't work. Remember, this is a Mac, it's supposed to be EASY!

Meanwhile, you need Stuffit expander - get it here: http://www.macorchard.com/helper/StuffItExpander.php
Get both the OS9 and the 10.4 versions. First, try the 10.4 version on the ISO's you got from here. That should work.
When you get one open, just drag the OS9 System Folder to your drive.
You'll then have to substitute the "new" System for the existing "Classic" one and get Tiger to use it for Classic. This will get complicated…possible, but complicated.

Now, I checked a G4 iBook I have Tiger installed on, and Classic is there. That means it's definitely installed by the Tiger installer when you install Tiger. You say "but Classic can't use either, says they are read only ()"
Does that mean Classic will run on your Pbook? Is there a "9" up in the menu bar that launches it?

I wouldn't be surprised to find Pshop 5 will NOT run properly in Classic but rather needs a full working OS9 environment. If so, you'll need to make an OS9 partition to run it on. It may be easier to just grab a copy of Creative Suite 1 in that case and forget OS9 entirely.

hollabak

[Anna Log]

Ah the mysteries of Apple. I came here to report everything is working - I think - but the how and why makes no sense. At least to me, and I like to understand things, or I wouldn't be messing with this in the first place, right?!

Btw it would have been more clear if I had written "Classic can't start up with either" in my previous post.

So today I booted up in my Cloned Tiger partition (copied from my original hard drive). I trashed the Aliases to my original System 9 folder that I had moved to an ext hdd, which has failed. Last night I put copies of this site's OS9 ISO in this partition, even though they were reported as "read only" in the partition with the Fresh Tiger install. I decided to try the "extended" version and put "standard" in a folder, but I still had to choose the one I wanted in Classic Sys Prefs. When I tried to start Classic in this partition, it said it needed to update, and I agreed or clicked continue, whatever. I thought it wouldn't be able to, since I don't have internet at home, but it updated itself and then Classic started up, hooray. Then I booted in my Fresh Tiger partition. I started Classic and voila, it worked! However it was running from the Sys 9 folder in my Cloned Tiger Partition. So I opened Classic Sys Prefs and selected the Sys 9 folder in my Fresh Tiger partition. Instead of aborting with an announcenent that it was Read Only like last night, it too declared that it had to update itself, so I agreed and it did. With Classic running I checked that I was going to be able to install Photoshop by starting an Adobe Reader install that comes with it. Everything looks fine, but I am going to do the zillions of Tiger and Java updates before actually installing my software.

There is a thread here where the responder suggests it is much better to have OS9 on a separate partition. The fact that Classic started up from the folder in my Cloned Tiger partition when I was booted in my Fresh Tiger partition makes me think that the aliases "to nowhere" in my other partition is what Classic might have been seeing as "Read Only" last night. Combining that with the fact that the OS9 drivers have to be on the root level before partitions are created indicates that Classic only needs to be present in one location anywhere on the internal hard drive, not in each partition. However since I am not planning to use OS9 and I only have it there to be able to install software for Tiger, I hope it won't create the problems described in the other thread... but maybe those problems are what were plaguing my original hard drive. So ideally, if I ever manage to get all the software installed in my Fresh Tiger partition, as well as photos etc copied, I might be able to erase my Cloned Tiger partition, and install OS9 on that partition so that I can erase OS9 in my Fresh Tiger partition. (I wish I could find that thread again!).

I am pretty sure that OS9 doesn't come on retail Tiger discs, and it might not even come with Panther, but I think it is on Jaguar and earlier. If your G4 iBook was updated to Tiger that could explain why you have it. People used to sell Tiger and OS9 discs together for people who wanted both. I wasn't given any OS discs when I bought my Powerbook in 2002 for $2K and I didn't know enough to ask for them, having only worked on a Win98se desktop that I got by helping at a computer recycling event before I went Mac. Maybe Tiger discs that came with a computer have OS9, but not retail Tiger discs? Anyway since I always did have the OS9 drivers I should gave seen OS9 if it was on my Tiger disk to be ibstalled.

I don't plan to worry about TWC/Spectrum because I can't afford internet or tv atm. However I think their routers/modems don't support Tiger; it wasn't possible to select the type of security. I couldn't even connect with None selected. I spent countless hours changing settings when I was trying to work with their "tech support". My friend just got TWC/Spectrum installed and Tiger doesn't work with her wifi either. I never did believe their claim that my Powerbook couldn't work on the same wifi as my iPhone because until they took away their old box it did.

Thank you for all the help! It's great that this site and forum exist... I have been taking more than enough flak just for wanting to use Tiger on my Powerbook, lol! I love it for the VHS out, and the PCMCIA slot that lets me hot swap firewire drives for video editing.

I hope that the fires are out soon, it's been a hard season for the West... take care!

[GaryN]

Glad to see you succeeded! The Classic "needing to update itself" thing was only The OS noting the new location of the OS9 System folder so it can find it in the future. As I said, this Mac crap is supposed to be EASY!
You definitely caused yourself some trouble with lost aliases when you cloned stuff and moved it around.

I am pretty sure that OS9 doesn't come on retail Tiger discs, and it might not even come with Panther, but I think it is on Jaguar and earlier. If your G4 iBook was updated to Tiger that could explain why you have it.

No, My iBook has a virgin install of Tiger with Classic that came directly from my retail "big X" Tiger DVD. It's there but it's not visible as a separate folder when you just look at the contents. It's buried in the installation data tome. I think there's a checkbox or such in the Tiger install procedure that you evidently missed that you have to check if you want it installed. I'm pretty sure of that but I'm not going to do another whole install to prove it. Doesn't matter anymore anyway.

I don't plan to worry about TWC/Spectrum because I can't afford internet or tv atm. However I think their routers/modems don't support Tiger; it wasn't possible to select the type of security. I couldn't even connect with None selected. I spent countless hours changing settings when I was trying to work with their "tech support". My friend just got TWC/Spectrum installed and Tiger doesn't work with her wifi either. I never did believe their claim that my Powerbook couldn't work on the same wifi as my iPhone because until they took away their old box it did.

You have my sincere sympathy having to endure TWC. I have Comcast and even they are not as (insert the worst insult you can think of here) as Time-Warner. Your problem is you're being forced to use their hardware. As you said: "I never did believe their claim that my Powerbook couldn't work on the same wifi as my iPhone because until they took away their old box it did."
It occurs to me that your simplest workaround here might be to score an older Airport base station which you can find for dirt cheap on fleabay or even Craigslist. You then set that near their POS router and plug it into an ethernet jack directly thereby going around their Wi-Fi. There might be some minor interference between the two (or NOT) but a little experimentation moving them around (even a few inches) can usually take care of that.

Glad we could help! Anytime!

[Anna Log]

I definitely appreciate your help! I still wonder how one would find OS 9 on my Tiger disk because before I found this site I had called OWC for help. One of their techs thought OS9 was on my Tiger disk too. I had already spent an entire day doing updates and installing software that didn't need to see OS9. So I was reluctant to start over, but I did. I erased my new (uncloned) Tiger partition and reinstalled Tiger again, specifically looking for an OS 9 option but I never saw one. So maybe the install disk found my aliases to the absent OS 9 folder and didn't offer OS 9 since it seemed to be already there. All this information together seems to indicate that when you install the OS 9 drivers when formatting you are really installing the framework of OS 9 on the root level across the entire hdd, and that any partitions made only apply to OS10. The aliases seem to have triggered all my problems, but since neither I nor the Apple store "Geniuses" could figure out what was filling up my original 30GB hdd, I was moving everything I could to an external hdd, only to lose it all. The original hdd hardly had any software, photos, videos, music or documents, yet librairies were filling up unexplainedly.

Does journaling - over 15 years - fill up space? Or is it self-limiting, erasing itself after a given time periid or accumulation of data?

Re TWC, Airport would be a good idea. I got Verizon Fios after that but at the beginning of this year their TV menus became unreadable and therefore unusable. Even before that it took longer to find a movie than watch one. I understand that satellite providers are also losing customers. For now I am just using limited phone data and downloading Netflix shows when I have public wifi.

So basically moving my original OS 9 folder to an external hdd was a too creative idea, haha! However it worked until the external hard drive failed. My next headache will be trying to save files - including videos of trips to Disneyland, and original soundtracks done in Garageband  - from the failed LaCie drive. I've been advised to just let Disk Warrior run for a week. I hope my Powerbook is up to that!

Cloning is actually what has gone smoothest in all my efforts. I am also trying to set up a MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard, Lion and Win 7 Bootcamp partitions. There is a trick that allows you to drop the Lion Recovery Partition that otherwise prevents a third OS. However since cloning Lion also drops its Reconery Partition, I am going to try that. My worst problem is that the 2 Firewire Express Card 34 adapters that I bought years ago turn out to only work with Windows, and now prices for those adapters have skyrocketed, if you can even find them with two Firewire 800 and one Firewire 400 jacks anymore. However reviewers had talked about these adapters working with Macs so that is the next esoteric information I'll be looking for :•D Then I plan to think about Mavericks, for iBooks, which is as up-to-date as I am interested in learning, as Apple continues to drop connectivity options in their newer hardware.

Thank you again for all your helpful advice!

[macStuff]

One of their techs thought OS9 was on my Tiger disk too. I had already spent an entire day doing updates and installing software that didn't need to see OS9. So I was reluctant to start over, but I did.

thats unfortunate for you, because theres no reason to have done that.

I erased my new (uncloned) Tiger partition and reinstalled Tiger again, specifically looking for an OS 9 option but I never saw one.

the option your confused about is present within the "Disk Utility" app when you format a NEW partition on a NEW drive (or re-format an OLD partition on an OLD drive)

users who have a thing against OSX will tell you to proceed with the older "Drive Setup" app that is found within Mac os 8 + 9. and thats fine, that was the way it was done before OSX was released, and will still work today, but you would need to have a working PPC mac with Mac OS already working, and booted up, off another hard drive to be able to accomplish this. Perhaps its also possible to boot from a bootable CD/DVD that has a system folder, and then run Drive Setup to partition your drive. i wonder if theres any popular boot cd that exists, like the mac equivelant of hiren's boot disk

So maybe the install disk found my aliases to the absent OS 9 folder and didn't offer OS 9 since it seemed to be already there. All this information together seems to indicate that when you install the OS 9 drivers when formatting you are really installing the framework of OS 9 on the root level across the entire hdd, and that any partitions made only apply to OS10.

https://macosx.com/threads/how-to-install-os-9-disk-drivers-w-o-disk-utility.309019/
so yea, to recap, the "os9 disk driver" is really just part of the process of formatting a new partition/drive for use with mac os. If you didnt format it in a way that allows you to install it, then you would have to copy all the data off the partition and format it properly with the option checked to include the os9 driver.

but if your goal is to add "Classic" environment compatibility, than what u did was not neccessary, u could have just downloaded os9_general.dmg and been 100% done in seconds.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=305.0

what does the magic mac os 9 driver do?? im not certain, but im guessing it might only be neccessary on a boot drive used to boot a ppc mac into mac os 9. if you are only looking to be using classic then you wouldnt need to worry about any of this. others may disagree, and say that you should always be using a partition thats been properly initialized.

[GaryN]

As sometimes happens with a loong post, it's easy to miss the point. AnnaLog was not looking for the OS9 driver but rather the OS9 Classic folder.

Anyway, MYSTERY SOLVED!  Classic is NOT installed in the basic Tiger installation.

The OS9 System Folder resides on a second "Additional Software" disc originally packaged with the Tiger DVD.
When you first try to run an OS9 app, you're prompted to go fetch the other disc OR your previous OS9 disc if you have one.

Naturally, by now in 2017, many of these pairs of discs have been separated leaving us dummies trying to figure out why there's no Classic on the Tiger DVD…

…Sorry I couldn't remember this before. I actually had to re-install Tiger again on an old iBook to see what would happen.

[Anna Log]

Thank you for the additional information!

Once again I am thankful that this website exists to find OS9 folders :•D

[Anna Log]

Gary N, this is what you posted in a different thread that I was referring to:

"Having two different OS's parked in the same place is similar. Depending on what you do with them and how you do it, maybe everything will be just fine or maybe stuff will crash and burn every other time you boot up.

It has mostly to do with the fact that they use different file systems and directories. With only one volume, it's possible for OS9 to write something in the directory area that OSX can't understand-or vice versa. So, next time you boot OSX, it automatically runs disk utility to "fix" what it doesn't like. Then you go back and boot OS9 and now it has a problem so it re-fixes the directory and on and on and on. Very soon it's an unrecoverable mess and you're having to completely erase the drive and start over.

My advice is: Partition the drive. It's no big deal to do. Then:
Go to Tiger Spotlight prefs and prevent Spotlight from indexing the OS9 partition."

How do I "prevent Spotlight from indexing another partition"?

Also if the presence of both Tiger and OS9  on the same partition can be a problem, maybe that is what messed up my original hard drive (the one I cloned). The only thing that I know is wrong is that the original owner installed some software on the hard drive outside the Applications Folder (so I dragged it there). And that the Library took over most of the 30GB!!! But if I could "fix" [the clone of] that hard drive, then I could save a lot of time trying to find all my old software and drivers and updates. Plus put OS 9 on a separate partition like you recommend.

Also thank you for going to all the work of installing Tiger just to find out if OS 9 was on the retail disk!! Looking for the thread with your comments on directories I came across this from IIO: "[OS9] is on any tiger CD/DVD - but it is an invisible file, so you need something like default folder, resedit, soundhack, to find and copy it." So maybe that's what Apple did later, when they stopped enclosing a second Additional Software disk?!!  If I ever find it I'll let you know!! Thank you for all the advice!!  :•D

[Anna Log]

Just so I'm clear, does some software work on both OS9 and OSX? Or when I see a VISE installer, does that mean the software is only for OS9?

[GaryN]

Congrats on finding that old post of mine…I couldn't!

You prevent Spotlight from indexing the OS9 volume in >Preferences/Spotlight/Privacy<
Just drag the OS9 volume icon onto the list.
You should do this immediately. Spotlight will start the indexing process as soon as you boot Tiger. It will first index the Tiger volume, then move on to all other volumes it can find.
I can't say if this is what "messed up" your 30Gb drive. It's more likely that all of the broken aliases were to blame. …or both - who knows?

Sadly, it's my duty to tell you that you shouldn't be surprised if you can't "fix" the clone. It sounds like you're at the point where you have to resort to Disk Warrior. Trouble is, you need version 4 that they no longer sell. You can try TechTool which we have a download of available - it's worth a try.

Looking for the thread with your comments on directories I came across this from IIO: "[OS9] is on any tiger CD/DVD - but it is an invisible file, so you need something like default folder, resedit, soundhack, to find and copy it." So maybe that's what Apple did later, when they stopped enclosing a second Additional Software disk?!!

IIO is wrong. He's making the same guess that I did. Trust me, I looked - it ain't there - there was another companion disc.

Just so I'm clear, does some software work on both OS9 and OSX? Or when I see a VISE installer, does that mean the software is only for OS9?

Yes. Lots of early OSX software was "carbonized". Carbon was an API that allowed developers to port OS9 and OS8 era apps to run on OSX as a temporary solution instead of rewriting the entire app. So a carbonized OS9-or-below app will run in OSX. So, a VISE installer could be any OS - even Windoze.