Author Topic: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?  (Read 3796 times)

Offline RTIInstaller

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plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« on: January 29, 2017, 03:56:40 PM »
I have read through several of the video card discussion threads on this site, studied the excellent comparison charts and frankly my head is spinning over which direction to go. There are so many opinions, so many likes and dislikes & potential problems such as is my power supply to small.

I currently have a decent ATI PCI based card installed that supports 1920 X 1080 out of both DVI and VGA ports, but I want to get away from using the PCI bus.

I have a couple of variations of the rage 128 pros that are crap. I also have a geforce MX 2 but I don't have the ADC to DVI adapter and the VGA output is terrible quality.

My OS9.2.2 rig is only used for Protools 5.1.3, I don't do anything else with it. can some one please definitively point me to an AGP video card I don't have to flash or jump through any hoops with. One that doesn't have a noisy fan on it as I have already spent a considerable amount of time replacing all the fans and modifying the chassis to make my G4 nearly dead silent. Most important, that has dual video out (preferably dual digital) that I can install, turn on and get to work with no fuss?

It doesn't have to be the best card, just a good enough card that will display tools mix and edit windows clearly on a 27 and 24 inch 1080p screens at 1920 X 1080 resolution. Also it must be a card I can actually find on ebay.

I greatly appreciate all of the amazing help I have received from this site, you all have saved my bacon many times.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:12:41 PM by Protools5LEGuy »



Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2017, 05:12:19 PM »
Thanks Protools5LEGuy !

What about dual digital? or does that lead me into flash only territory?


Offline IIO

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 06:30:13 PM »

and the VGA output is terrible quality.

My OS9.2.2 rig is only used for Protools 5.1.3, I don't do anything else with it.

Most important, that has dual video out (preferably dual digital)

for protools? you have quality issues with using VGA? ;)

i believe the geforce are out of the game then; the only dual dvi-i / dvi-d card should be the radeon 9000 ... but i am not so sure if it exists for AGP...
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 07:23:35 PM »

and the VGA output is terrible quality.

My OS9.2.2 rig is only used for Protools 5.1.3, I don't do anything else with it.

Most important, that has dual video out (preferably dual digital)

for protools? you have quality issues with using VGA? ;)

i believe the geforce are out of the game then; the only dual dvi-i / dvi-d card should be the radeon 9000 ... but i am not so sure if it exists for AGP...

I am older than apple so I have declining vision. I am running 1920 X 1080 off my ATI PCI card DVI output and it is a huge improvement for me over the VGA output from the same card running 1920 X 1080, the text is much sharper and  easier to see.

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 07:30:58 PM »
Is this the card you have? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Video-Card-Nvidia-GeForce-4-MX-32MB-ADC-DVI-Power-Mac-G4-661-2647-630-4099-/331789770875?hash=item4d4036207b:g:IkEAAOSwu4BVtqKa

Yes and it allowed me dualdisplay via one ADC to DVI adapter. But those 64Mb ones should be quicker.

When you say "should be quicker" how would that help in tools, will it speed up anything that happens in tools, or improve the picture quality?

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 10:07:32 PM »
If you want dual-digital on a stock-standard AGP card for OS 9, these are your options to the best of my knowledge:

- GeForce 4MX 32MB ADC/DVI (OEM Apple)
- Radeon 9000 Pro 64MB ADC/DVI (OEM Apple)
- Radeon 9000 Pro Mac Edition 128MB ADC/DVI (Retail)
- GeForce 4 Ti4600 128 MB ADC/DVI (OEM Apple)

  Power consumption should not be an issue if you are not using an ADC monitor powered directly from the ADC port.  If you do have an ADC monitor it is quite widely advised to get an external DVI-to-ADC converter box with its own dedicated power supply.  You would have to get an ADC-to-DVI adapter also to put first in the chain, but you'll need that no matter what you are doing with these cards and dual monitors.  (I actually own a two-input switch box with DVI inputs and ADC output with dedicated ADC power supply which simplified the chain to the primary monitor and let me connect a second computer at the same desk.)

  This evening I tested a dual-monitor/dual-digital 1920x1080 configuration on the GeForce 4MX 32MB, Radeon 9000 Pro 64MB and GeForce 4 Ti4600 128MB.  (I just got the Ti4600 in a couple days ago from eBay so I was quite interested to see the results of this test.)  One monitor was connected ADC-to-DVI, and the second monitor (an LCD TV) DVI-to-HDMI.  The test-bed computer was an MDD FW800 running Mac OS 9.2.2 with the last known ATI and Nvidia drivers.  On all three cards, both screens came up immediately in their native 1920x1080 modes automatically with all alternate resolution settings available.

  GeForce 4MX 32MB cards should be fairly easy to find on eBay.  If you want to find all the listings properly you will have to use the Apple part numbers in the search, 603-1263 or 630-4023, because many of the sellers don't know the name of these otherwise unmarked OEM cards.

  Radeon 9000 Pro 64MB cards are available on eBay right now for a reasonable amount of money.  (I just recently bought a second one myself.)  If you want to find all the listings properly you will have to use the Apple part numbers in the search, 603-3352 or 630-4845, because many of the sellers don't know the name of these otherwise unmarked OEM cards.

  Radeon 9000 Pro Mac Edition 128MB cards are going to be a rarity in re-sale these days.  At the moment there's a listing on eBay featuring the full package from what probably was one, but inside it has an old Rage128 card.  I warned the seller about that but he never took down or modified the listing.

  There was someone recently selling a bunch of GeForce 4 Ti4600s for $100 US a piece if I remember correctly.  I refused to pay that much but they all sold anyway.  My patience paid off and I later found a listing in my home country of Canada for much less.  They don't come up for sale very often, but so many sellers know the collectable nature of these cards that they eventually get listed here and there.

Additional information regarding GeForce 4MX:

- GeForce 4MX 32MB ADC/DVI (OEM Apple)
- GeForce 4MX 64MB ADC/DVI (OEM Apple)

  In my experience there are two different versions of the GeForce 4MX, only one of which fully supports OS 9.  The first one is 32MB and has pin-based RAM chips - this fully supports OS 9.  The second is 64MB and has ball-grid RAM chips - VGA will get stuck at 640x480, while DVI or ADC will lock to a single higher resolution in OS 9.  To what extent specific ROM revisions might change this, I can't say for sure.

  During my testing of the 64MB variant of the card the digital output did correctly detect and display on the monitor at the maximum/native 1920x1080 mode.  The TV would actually detect correctly but would never display video - I confirmed this by moving the connection over to the monitor after boot.  (Probably related to incorrect HDCP handshake handling.)  The most important discovery though is that oddly this card appears to only have a single digital display driver IC, meaning you can't actually use the two digital outputs simultaneously.  It will show a second screen when adapted to VGA but locked to 640x480 only as mentioned above.  As I recall, the resolutions don't get locked/limited under OS X, so the ROM is not 100% compatible with OS 9.  That said, the deal-breaker is the apparent lack of a second digital driver IC.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 10:20:19 PM »

  During my testing of the 64MB variant of the card the digital output did correctly detect and display on the monitor at the maximum/native 1920x1080 mode.  The TV would actually detect correctly but would never display video - I confirmed this by moving the connection over to the monitor after boot.  (Probably related to incorrect HDCP handshake handling.)  The most important discovery though is that oddly this card appears to only have a single digital display driver IC, meaning you can't actually use the two digital outputs simultaneously.  It will show a second screen when adapted to VGA but locked to 640x480 only as mentioned above.  As I recall, the resolutions don't get locked/limited under OS X, so the ROM is not 100% compatible with OS 9.  That said, the deal-breaker is the apparent lack of a second digital driver IC.

Most GeForce 4 MX with 64 Mb on eBay are ADC+VGA. Check the auctions I posted. My 4 MX with 32 Mb is ADC+DVI

Are there 2 OEM GeForce 4MX with 64 Mb version?
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Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 11:38:46 PM »
Thank you Mac OS for the great right to the point review!!!

I found a dual digital GeForce 4MX 32MB labeled 630 4099 + 630 1754, is there a diff between this card and the one you mentioned marked 630 4023?

Thanks  :)

Update I went ahead and bought this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/272537104696?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT it was only $7.90 US delivered so i thought what the heck I try it out. If I like it great if not I will move on up  ;)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 11:51:35 PM by RTIInstaller »

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 12:52:33 AM »
Well done!

You still need a ADC to DVI solution for dual or keep the ATI pci!
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Offline IIO

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2017, 05:33:11 AM »
and it is a huge improvement for me over the VGA output from the same card running 1920 X 1080, the text is much sharper and  easier to see.

really.

i sometimes see people discussing over this and i wonder if it not mostly depends on the card, the cables or eventually even the monitor?

i never had the chance for an 1:1 comparison between VGA and DVI-D on a mac - but on a windows PC - and there i couldnt see much difference.

the only hughe difference i remember is when you compare tubes vs flat screens - and my monitors, all of the same model, also look different with different brands of GPUs.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 05:43:56 AM by IIO »
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Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2017, 06:46:53 AM »
Well done!

You still need a ADC to DVI solution for dual or keep the ATI pci!

I have a friend digging through his box of ancient junk, he says there is an adc to dvi adapter in there somewhere  ;)

Thanks for your help

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2017, 06:51:17 AM »
and it is a huge improvement for me over the VGA output from the same card running 1920 X 1080, the text is much sharper and  easier to see.

really.

i sometimes see people discussing over this and i wonder if it not mostly depends on the card, the cables or eventually even the monitor?

i never had the chance for an 1:1 comparison between VGA and DVI-D on a mac - but on a windows PC - and there i couldnt see much difference.

the only hughe difference i remember is when you compare tubes vs flat screens - and my monitors, all of the same model, also look different with different brands of GPUs.

There is a diff for me. My ATI PCI card has both VGA and DVI I have already gone back and forth on the same monitor with both cable types and the text is much sharper for me with DVI. I have two different monitors here to test this with and on both I see a diff. For someone who has aging eyesight it makes a big difference having the text as defined as possible.



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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2017, 09:49:40 AM »
Most GeForce 4 MX with 64 Mb on eBay are ADC+VGA. Check the auctions I posted. My 4 MX with 32 Mb is ADC+DVI

Are there 2 OEM GeForce 4MX with 64 Mb version?

  The card I own is ADC/DVI 64MB.  It is probably a very late model because it came to me in a second-hand MDD FW800 machine.  This would help explain the OS 9 limitations since this machine wasn't meant to run it.  I hadn't actually looked at the ADC/VGA 64MB variant before, but it is supposed to be supported by OS 9 properly.  It would be a moot point to the original poster's requirements though because both 64MB variants won't do dual digital.

Thank you Mac OS for the great right to the point review!!!

I found a dual digital GeForce 4MX 32MB labeled 630 4099 + 630 1754, is there a diff between this card and the one you mentioned marked 630 4023?

Thanks  :)

Update I went ahead and bought this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/272537104696?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT it was only $7.90 US delivered so i thought what the heck I try it out. If I like it great if not I will move on up  ;)

  You're welcome!  The only information I trust in the Apple world is what I can physically prove right in the comfort of my own home. ;)

  They look to be identical.  Probably just a separate production run.  It may also have shipped with a later ROM version than mine started with.  The current ROM on my card is 1121, which is the final version for this card variant to the best of my knowledge.  I would hazard a guess that it is the 2xxx ROM which doesn't fully support OS 9.  Perhaps someone who owns an ADC/VGA 64MB variant with a 2xxx ROM can confirm this for me for the sake of completing this story.

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2017, 01:37:34 PM »
Most GeForce 4 MX with 64 Mb on eBay are ADC+VGA. Check the auctions I posted. My 4 MX with 32 Mb is ADC+DVI

Are there 2 OEM GeForce 4MX with 64 Mb version?

  The card I own is ADC/DVI 64MB.  It is probably a very late model because it came to me in a second-hand MDD FW800 machine.  This would help explain the OS 9 limitations since this machine wasn't meant to run it.  I hadn't actually looked at the ADC/VGA 64MB variant before, but it is supposed to be supported by OS 9 properly.  It would be a moot point to the original poster's requirements though because both 64MB variants won't do dual digital.

Thank you Mac OS for the great right to the point review!!!

I found a dual digital GeForce 4MX 32MB labeled 630 4099 + 630 1754, is there a diff between this card and the one you mentioned marked 630 4023?

Thanks  :)

Update I went ahead and bought this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/272537104696?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT it was only $7.90 US delivered so i thought what the heck I try it out. If I like it great if not I will move on up  ;)

  You're welcome!  The only information I trust in the Apple world is what I can physically prove right in the comfort of my own home. ;)

  They look to be identical.  Probably just a separate production run.  It may also have shipped with a later ROM version than mine started with.  The current ROM on my card is 1121, which is the final version for this card variant to the best of my knowledge.  I would hazard a guess that it is the 2xxx ROM which doesn't fully support OS 9.  Perhaps someone who owns an ADC/VGA 64MB variant with a 2xxx ROM can confirm this for me for the sake of completing this story.

here is the nvidia part number for this card A74  900-10074-0602-000

I guess I will find out what version it is when it shows up in the mail.

Oh by the way I ran into a site that has extensive information on old ATI cards with links to the drivers. Could this be of help for anyone here ? https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CS

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2017, 11:42:17 PM »
Most GeForce 4 MX with 64 Mb on eBay are ADC+VGA. Check the auctions I posted. My 4 MX with 32 Mb is ADC+DVI

Are there 2 OEM GeForce 4MX with 64 Mb version?

  The card I own is ADC/DVI 64MB.  It is probably a very late model because it came to me in a second-hand MDD FW800 machine.  This would help explain the OS 9 limitations since this machine wasn't meant to run it.  I hadn't actually looked at the ADC/VGA 64MB variant before, but it is supposed to be supported by OS 9 properly.  It would be a moot point to the original poster's requirements though because both 64MB variants won't do dual digital.

Thank you Mac OS for the great right to the point review!!!

I found a dual digital GeForce 4MX 32MB labeled 630 4099 + 630 1754, is there a diff between this card and the one you mentioned marked 630 4023?

Thanks  :)

Update I went ahead and bought this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/272537104696?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT it was only $7.90 US delivered so i thought what the heck I try it out. If I like it great if not I will move on up  ;)

  You're welcome!  The only information I trust in the Apple world is what I can physically prove right in the comfort of my own home. ;)

  They look to be identical.  Probably just a separate production run.  It may also have shipped with a later ROM version than mine started with.  The current ROM on my card is 1121, which is the final version for this card variant to the best of my knowledge.  I would hazard a guess that it is the 2xxx ROM which doesn't fully support OS 9.  Perhaps someone who owns an ADC/VGA 64MB variant with a 2xxx ROM can confirm this for me for the sake of completing this story.

here is the nvidia part number for this card A74  900-10074-0602-000

I guess I will find out what version it is when it shows up in the mail.

Oh by the way I ran into a site that has extensive information on old ATI cards with links to the drivers. Could this be of help for anyone here ? https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CS

Hey this card Works! 

It didn't at first, but that turned out to be a driver issue. Even though I have 9.2.2 installed it was still running the 2.4 Nvidia drivers. I updated it to 3.5.2 and it fired right up using the DVI connection.

HOWEVER! Here is where it gets weird.

I connected my second DVI monitor to the ADC port using the Formac ADC to DVI adapter and for no apparent reason the G4 wont even turn on, no lights nothing. I had to disconnect the ADC adapter and leave the G4 unplugged for 5 minutes and then reconnect power (without the ADC connection) to get it to turn on.

What the heck is that all about?

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2017, 12:01:52 AM »
So it looks like a common problem where the G4 will not power on when using the ADC connection unless you are using an ADC monitor, I can plug the ADC to DVI adapter into the mac while it is running and it turns off. Seems to be looking for a voltage.

I am reading through the following blog covering the topic, hopefully there is an answer in thee somewhere. http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=2005040811124189

Offline mrhappy

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2017, 06:49:14 AM »
hopefully there is an answer in thee somewhere. http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=2005040811124189

Yes there seems to be a bunch of things in there to check out! ;D

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2017, 10:49:12 AM »
Hey this card Works! 

It didn't at first, but that turned out to be a driver issue. Even though I have 9.2.2 installed it was still running the 2.4 Nvidia drivers. I updated it to 3.5.2 and it fired right up using the DVI connection.

HOWEVER! Here is where it gets weird.

I connected my second DVI monitor to the ADC port using the Formac ADC to DVI adapter and for no apparent reason the G4 wont even turn on, no lights nothing. I had to disconnect the ADC adapter and leave the G4 unplugged for 5 minutes and then reconnect power (without the ADC connection) to get it to turn on.

What the heck is that all about?

  Hmmm, I don't think I've ever experienced that with any of my ADC-based cards in any machine type.  I don't like making guesses, but I'd have to think this is either some peculiarity with the particular ADC/DVI adapter you got, computer firmware revision, or video card ROM version.  Does your card have the 1121 ROM or is it older?  You can see that in System Profiler under its PCI device tab.

  I don't think this behavior is normal for ADC cards.  I've found all the AGP G4s occasionally act really weird or picky, particularly the Quicksilver followed closely by the MDD.  Every now and then I have to do a PMU reset to restore function.  Something as simple as a partial OS crash can cause this - it's never really one specific trigger.  A PMU reset might fix your machine's behavior too.  Even my Xserves have had this problem occasionally.

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2017, 07:19:35 PM »
Hey this card Works! 

It didn't at first, but that turned out to be a driver issue. Even though I have 9.2.2 installed it was still running the 2.4 Nvidia drivers. I updated it to 3.5.2 and it fired right up using the DVI connection.

HOWEVER! Here is where it gets weird.

I connected my second DVI monitor to the ADC port using the Formac ADC to DVI adapter and for no apparent reason the G4 wont even turn on, no lights nothing. I had to disconnect the ADC adapter and leave the G4 unplugged for 5 minutes and then reconnect power (without the ADC connection) to get it to turn on.

What the heck is that all about?

  Hmmm, I don't think I've ever experienced that with any of my ADC-based cards in any machine type.  I don't like making guesses, but I'd have to think this is either some peculiarity with the particular ADC/DVI adapter you got, computer firmware revision, or video card ROM version.  Does your card have the 1121 ROM or is it older?  You can see that in System Profiler under its PCI device tab.

  I don't think this behavior is normal for ADC cards.  I've found all the AGP G4s occasionally act really weird or picky, particularly the Quicksilver followed closely by the MDD.  Every now and then I have to do a PMU reset to restore function.  Something as simple as a partial OS crash can cause this - it's never really one specific trigger.  A PMU reset might fix your machine's behavior too.  Even my Xserves have had this problem occasionally.

There is a lot more info about what is going on at this link. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2377.0.html I have traced the problem I believe back to AGP pins 3 and 11 conflict. As soon as I connect the ADC adapter it shorts a pin (called soft power) and tells the card to look for 24V on the return from a MAC ADC monitor. This sends a signal through AGP pins 3 and 11 that tell the G4 to wait. Pressing the pram until you are blue in the face will not fix this problem.

This link talks about pins 3 and 11 http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11

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Re: plug and play AGP Video card that fully supports 1920 X 1080 ?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2017, 07:34:05 PM »
This Geforce4 MX32 video card has the 1121 ROM. Card version 165.

My G4 quicksilver is
9.2.2
733 Mhz
1.5 gigs of ram
Rom revision $77D.45F6
Boot Rom      $0004.25f1
Mac OS ROM  8.7
USB  driver 1.5.6

If push comes to shove I have two more G4's I use for parts, I could always swap mother boards