Author Topic: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?  (Read 2055 times)

Offline s0s

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I have a 733 MHz Quicksilver, but I want to put the best logic board in it that will fit. I don't know if the MDD logic boards will be compatible with the Quicksilver's case or not. I know that Apple is anal about making almost everything incompatible with stuff if it wasn't originally released for that specific model. I know it had a dual 800 MHz G4 logic board, according to http://apple-history.com/g4_quicksilver but I don't know there were any other G4 logic boards that were better, such as MDD boards.

I've read that CMOS/Mac OS 9 don't support dual-cpu configurations, but I still want the best motherboard (I don't know why they're called logic boards) I can get to run Mac OS 9 on.

Anybody have any experience pumping Quicksilvers full of steroids?

Offline GaryN

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 10:46:42 PM »
There are a few good high performance configs you can build. Dual 1.0Ghz CPUs are not uncommon.

There is useful info here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2903.msg18351.html#msg18351

There are even Sonnet 1.8Ghz CPU boards that pop up occasionally


It's not a one-answer easy subject. Do a forum search for "Quicksilver" + "CPU" and such.

Offline s0s

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2016, 08:03:14 AM »
There are a few good high performance configs you can build. Dual 1.0Ghz CPUs are not uncommon.

There is useful info here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2903.msg18351.html#msg18351

There are even Sonnet 1.8Ghz CPU boards that pop up occasionally


It's not a one-answer easy subject. Do a forum search for "Quicksilver" + "CPU" and such.
Eventually I do plan to upgrade the CPU(s), but first I want to get the best logic board that will fit in the Quicksilver. I've seen pictures of the MDD, and it looks like the ports are in a different place. But I built my gaming computer earlier this year, and ASUS put the port covers with the motherboard, so I do know that port covers aren't part of cases (at least PC cases). And as I was just typing this, I finally found a good, close-up picture of the back of a MDD, and it looks like the boards and cases aren't compatible without cutting the case.

Offline IIO

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2016, 08:04:09 AM »
honestly, dont try to put a dual processor nd an MDD motherboard into a 733 case, no matter if the screws will fit or not.

from what i can tell you will not be able to fit an MDD board in a 733 case because of a totally different powersupply and cabling, first of all.

get a MDD if you want an MDD and get a dual processor if you think you need that (and certain OS9 apps such as photoshop or cubase DO support it)

the MDD case has that one big benefit of a second optical drive bay.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2016, 09:06:34 AM »
oh btw (i just looked into my 933 and dual 1250) the MDDs also have the PCI slots on the other side :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2016, 03:20:12 PM »
You seem to be unaware of the basic differences between Macs and Windows PC's.
PC's can be and are commonly assembled from all sorts of components from a hundred different manufacturers and easily modified to your heart's content.
Macs are systems where everything comes from Apple and fits together in an integrated way.
Of course there are "Hackintoshes" just as there are '32 Fords with supercharged V-8's in them and that's a cool thing.
But thinking you can just swap boards and stuff around between Mac models will only cause you enormous frustration and even if you succeed, in the end you'll find it would have been way cheaper to just find and buy a better Mac - and that's before you start adding in the wasted time that you don't get back.

I'm just sayin'…

Offline IIO

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2016, 05:21:02 PM »
everything from apple? ^^
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2016, 12:19:31 AM »
everything from apple? ^^

Don't get snarky…you KNOW what I mean.

Offline IIO

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2016, 04:41:35 AM »
"we assembled the chinese shit in california"
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline s0s

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2016, 09:29:14 PM »
You seem to be unaware of the basic differences between Macs and Windows PC's.
PC's can be and are commonly assembled from all sorts of components from a hundred different manufacturers and easily modified to your heart's content.
Macs are systems where everything comes from Apple and fits together in an integrated way.
Of course there are "Hackintoshes" just as there are '32 Fords with supercharged V-8's in them and that's a cool thing.
But thinking you can just swap boards and stuff around between Mac models will only cause you enormous frustration and even if you succeed, in the end you'll find it would have been way cheaper to just find and buy a better Mac - and that's before you start adding in the wasted time that you don't get back.

I'm just sayin'…
Was that directed at me?

Offline GaryN

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2016, 10:43:32 PM »
Well, yes. It was not meant to be insulting or demeaning.  I'm just trying to point out that crowbaring different motherboards into Mac cases invariably ends badly. All of that nice molded and contoured architecture has to be hacksawed and routed into a piece of Swiss cheese. and nothing, I mean nothing lines up or fits worth a shit.

Offline s0s

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2016, 09:22:15 AM »
Well, yes. It was not meant to be insulting or demeaning.  I'm just trying to point out that crowbaring different motherboards into Mac cases invariably ends badly. All of that nice molded and contoured architecture has to be hacksawed and routed into a piece of Swiss cheese. and nothing, I mean nothing lines up or fits worth a shit.
Ok, well not sure why you'd think that; I'm pretty familiar with Macs, and even in my OP I mention familiarity with different models not fitting. What I wasn't familiar with was the MDD, but in a later post after my OP, I did mention that I finally found a picture that shows what I'd been looking for. No, I don't want to cut the Quicksilver case. But FYI, some PC hardware DOES work with G4 Macs. NICs, hds, RAM, just to name a few parts (the ones I've tried). It's just the motherboards that are customized for the specific models. The reasons I was asking about the Quicksilver was because:
  • When I started the topic, I preferred the simple aesthetics of the Quicksilver over the MDD, but now I'm starting to prefer the aesthetics of the MDD.
  • I already have a Quicksilver.
  • One variation of the MDD serial nos was loud enough to earn a nickname based on it.
  • I've read that models of the G4 chips that were in the MDD had bugs in their microcode.
There's no way I'd want to damage the nice case. But if you compare the two, the Quicksilver does sort of look like it has a port cover attached to the mobo that might come away from the case with the mobo, while the MDD's case is definitely built around the ports.

Offline DieHard

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2016, 02:33:22 PM »
As always, Gary is pretty much on track here.  Swapping G4 mother boards from different models (like an MDD into a QS) is very challenging; I am not saying that you are not up to the task, but it is advised to leave QS and MDD boards in their respective units.  Most of our core members have done some of this crazy-ness in our youth, myself included, if you have endless time and an enhanced workshop than go for it !  But in the end, you might see the master design of each G4 model is sacred...

That being said, since you have a 733, there are a few things to keep in mind
1)  If you plan to use large IDE hard drives, make sure your QS MB is part number 820-1342-B
From our site:
Quote
Power Mac G4 QuickSilver 733, 800, Dual 800, 867, 933, and Dual 1 GHz with logic board 820-1342-B (QS logic board 820-1276-A will NOT work and peak out at 128 GB)

Swapping out a QS MB that doesn't support large drives with one that does is very straight-forward

2)  The 733 QS CPU is a total dog with only 256K cache and will under perform a 500 Mhz sawtooth when it come to audio
From our site:
Quote
Again, be aware that you must check out the machine’s technical specs very carefully to insure you get at least 1 MB cache and that the G4 can boot directly to OS 9 (all Intel CPUs are automatically out of the question). Also, be aware that more expensive dual processor G4s may not be any faster since most OS 9 applications will ignore the second CPU all together. If you follow my guidelines you won’t need a dual processor. I have personally been involved with audio projects that have over 60 tracks of 32 bit audio with effects on a single core G4. By the way, some of the fastest OS 9 Power Mac Towers (Quicksilver G4 933 MHz and MDD 1.25 GHz 2003)
So swap out the CPU if needed for Audio recording or graphics design.

Use a 933 single if you are staying the world of OS 9
or a Dual 1 Ghz. if you are going to dual boot to OS 9 and OS X.

Offline s0s

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2016, 09:46:04 PM »
I remember reading that second message you quoted lol. A lot of awesome info. I'm with you guys; I'm not interested in altering the case in any way. I'd like to keep it as pristine as possible. I am sort of thinking about getting a MDD now, since I unexpectedly started to appreciate its aesthetics over my long-time favorite, the Quicksilver. If I find a good deal on a non-FW800 MDD, I might go for it. Even before I found that good picture which shows the ports clearly on the MDD after I started this topic, I was skeptical about the compatibility between the two.

Now I have a question for you DieHard: When you mention the 1MB cache, I'm assuming you're talking about the level 2 cache. However, according to http://apple-history.com/g4_quick_2002 , the 933 also had a 256KB level 2 cache, but had a 2MB level 3 cache, although level 3 is slower than level 2, with level 1 being the fastest, so, using the logic you provided justifying the 500MHz G4 due to its 1MB level 2 cache, I'm not sure why you'd recommend the 933 and higher, unless the increase in clock speed is enough to justify the less level 2 cache.

Offline mrhappy

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 07:17:57 AM »
I believe the reference is to the level3 $

Offline DieHard

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 02:04:39 PM »
Quote
2MB level 3 cache, although level 3 is slower than level 2

True, but level 2 performance compared to level 3 is pretty negligible overall in real world applications.  The trick is to have that CPU cache memory and as much as possible (since it cannot be added later).  This "Turbo" off the main bus memory will store many recent instructions and provide very noticeable improvements when comparing 2 Identical G4 models with different CPUs... one having 256K cache and one having 1 MB or 2MB.  The DA 733 in the OS 9 world beats the balls off the QS 733 (Both have 133 Mhz. Bus).

However, we have extensive discussions about overall system speed if you search the forum, and whether to go with Dual CPUs (more heat) or a single CPU depending on your needs and OS 9 or OS X.  For OS 9, I personally use a 1.25 Ghz. 2003 MDD Model with a 1.33 Ghz. Xserve CPU (no mods needed).

Obviously the CPU is NOT the only factor in speed; the Later MDD have many options that add a performance edge, Faster/Dual IDE storage Bus, faster memory, 167 Mhz. system bus, and easy overclocking (search for MacTrons many posts since he is the master of overclocking).  But, the MDD will also add a noticeable increase in acoustical noise which is a real deal breaker for some even with the never ending fan Mods.

Offline Apfel

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2016, 04:36:14 PM »
I'd like to add this link http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=578.0 , since we there discussed the best combination of Quicksilver Logicboard and fitting CPU a bit already and it might add to DieHard's useful posts (obviously only a CPU from:
- a stock CPU from another Quicksilver (also look at the PowerMac G4 list on everymac.com, I find that simpler to look through than apple-history.com, whichwas my favourite befor I found everymac.com a long time ago)
- an xserve CPU
- CPUs from third party manufacturers like Sonnet, Gigadesigns, Powerlogix (Newertech),...) (lowendmacs.com as well as xlr8yourmac.com has list with CPU Upgrades).

---

Regarding the MDD, if you, OP, now want to buy an MDD, but fear the noise, you might want to look into cooling mods, that don't afford massive re-crafting of the case - there are such crafting mods on aquamacs site, though (some even involving building a copper CPU cooler).

Simpler mods:
- simply getting better airflow http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mdd-problem-ps-cooling-prototype.1923731/#post-22016022
- http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mdd-silent-bliss.1958823/
- https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2536999?start=0&tstart=0

Software mods against noise: use CHUD / NAP tool linked to in the apple discussions thread

Offline IIO

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2016, 07:46:51 PM »
I'm not sure why you'd recommend the 933 and higher, unless the increase in clock speed is enough to justify the less level 2 cache.

it is not about the MHz, only about the architecture.

audio room simulation or blurring photos often requires level 3 cache and therefore sometimes freaks out when it is not present.

among other things, it can mean that a certain process has to use the main memory as alternative.

on a 733 there is about a dozen of audio plug-ins which requrie 2 times the CPU compared to a 500 or 533. i also found a certain game engine which has huge problems.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline s0s

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Re: What's the best logic board/CPU combo I can put in a Quicksilver?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 10:33:21 AM »
Awesome, thanks guys. What's a little ironic, is that when I ordered the parts for my gaming PC, i must have accidentally ordered two NZXT X61 Krakens (liquid coolers). I still have the extra one, and I'm thinking about its possible uses with a hot G4. But again, I don't really want to mod the case.

Edit: One of these days I've decided I'm going to get a MDD w/o FW800 built in, and then just add the PCI FW800 card later if I want it. DieHard, I'm going to go back over your informative post, in case I missed something and to refresh my memory on your main points. Thanks again! I definitely decided I want the extra cache. Now I just have to decide which one to get lol.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 11:29:43 PM by s0s »