Author Topic: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth  (Read 3277 times)

Offline part12studios

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Hi there everyone,

So I was all excited about going to a lower resolution on my 26" LCD monitor using VGA.. i foolishly clicked a lower rez and apparently went outside the range of the monitor..  so it went black..  seeing that the monitor was more like an LCD TV, i thought maybe a standard VGA (4:3) type of 17" monitor would be ok..

It was for awhile but no matter what I do I can't get back to the original 13xx x 7xx full resolution of the original monitor..  and then after messing around with the monitor stuff in the control panel settings.. there isn't the native resolution that OS9 seemed to auto detect originally without any configuring it just kinda snapped to the right rez..  but when i do suggested or "all"..  none of the options in either are the right normal max rez of the monitor.. 

i was for awhile able to get resolutions like 830x620 (ish) and it worked on the 26" screen.. so i would have though that it seems to auto save (WHY THE F*** does it not have some kind of 'are you sure this is what you want" timer?!) so then i go to reboot and it again goes black.. 

now even on my other monitor a normal one does the same thing.. you see the OS9 load screenn and then it jumps to some resolution that neither monitor can display..

i can't find a clear "safe mode" button to push or anything so any insight / advise would be welcome because my system is incapacitated now.

The reason why i wanted a lower rez is because the monitor is set back a little and simply hard to see the finer stuff so i wanted to lower the rez so everything would appear bigger. 


Thanks,
Caleb

Offline Mat

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Ususally if you switch to any other resolution, the Mac OS draws a alert box and asks you if you like to use this new resolution, and if you dont klick ok again, it automatically switches back to the former resolution. I never heard about any "auto save".

You can try to reset the NV-RAM, that should switch the boot screen (depending on the graphiccard) to some possible resolution. Or try to boot without the extensions, that should help as well. Or, use any monitor and resolution, and select 640x480 @ 60 Hz, that should work at any monitor, so you can try any of the TFTs and see what they offer as resolution.

Offline part12studios

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yea it never gave me any kind of "are you sure" for the resolution..  i just clicked the new resolution that was not the standard one.. and the screen went black..  after a few seconds I turned it off..  and that's basically all she wrote.. the rest was me fighting with the stuff mentioned above.

in fact in all the changing i have been doing i've never once been asked if i like the resolution which is why i made the conclusion that it doesn't do it.. heh. 

I'm looking for how to reset the NV Ram next..  the card my 450mhz sawtooth g4 has is standard.. it's not a custom one. 

Offline part12studios

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i have a pc keyboard hooked up to my system.. and in these instructions to reset the nv ram..  http://www.finseth.com/parts/mac-keys.php

when i did the nv ram reset it booted to OSX (i have a 2nd drive that has OSX for now... i thought i formatted it but apparently not).. OSX seemed to run fine.. i got to the main desktop without trouble and the resolution was an appropriately low resolution. 

here is a video of what is happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ZHGvRFtG8&feature=youtu.be

this is exactly what happens with my SVGA monitor as well so I don't think it's my Samsung monitor that's acting up.. 

Thanks,
Caleb




Offline GaryN

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Part of your aggravation (not the actual rez issue) is that you're using PC components on an old, Classic Mac system without being aware of all of the little differences that will trip you up.

When you tried to reset NVRAM, you got OSX, but you don't know why. Here's why:

The reset requires holding [Apple-Option-N-V] at startup. The operative part here is "Apple"
You don't have an "Apple" key on your keyboard - you have a PC "Windows" key. When you booted the system the very first time with that keyboard, it had to be identified to the system so it could be interpreted and used. The differences are stored in the keyboard preferences file that loads later during the boot - too late to do the reset. BUT, you might be able to do it in OSX…iffy, but worth a try. The results vary depending on the particular keyboard.

If you must use a PC keyboard, you should keep an actual Apple keyboard around to do this kind of stuff at least.


Meanwhile, if you can get the rez you want without problems in OSX, that means that rez is supported by the monitor but not available in the OS9 monitor driver. Why? Because the monitor(s) connected to the system are identified at boot (just like the keyboard) and your monitors, manufactured long after OS9 may not speaking a language that OS9 understands. OSX does, but not OS9. Also, the rez you're seeing that you like in OSX may be close, but not identical to the selection in OS9. What graphics card is in your computer? You might get better results with a different one.

Set the rez back to normal in OSX then reboot OSX and try a NVRAM reset. If that doesn't work, you may have to beg, borrow, steal or buy an actual Mac keyboard.

Lastly, a disclaimer: I am NOT the #1 monitor / display guru here by any means. Anyone better schooled on this subject is requested to jump in…please!

Offline part12studios

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ok yea when i got the mac it didn't come with an official mac keyboard.. i'll see about getting one.. i have a modern macbook pro but that doesn't help much in this case. 

about getting a mac keyboard.. would a modern mac keyboard be ok?  or would I want to find one contemporary to the model?  it's all USB so I would think so but I'm not wanting to make any assumptions. 

It seems like though that while I get what you're saying about it not being an "actual mac keyboard"... is there really something different in the buttons?  my understand is that the windows icon is the same physically (keyboard mapping-wise) as the command and alt is the option button.. it seems more like it's the decals on the button that make them different than the hardware. 

would it be possible to load OSX and then poke around the OS9 partition and delete / edit some file so when it reboots it recreates the settings or i could edit something? 

Also to be clear, the first time this OS9 device connected to this Monitor, it appeared in full resolution absolutely spot on..  you're totally right that this monitor was made 15 years or so later..  but it seems like if it could auto-detect it right the first time it connected, I could delete something / edit something so that the computer thinks it's the first time again.. 

Thanks,
Caleb


Online ovalking

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When I had trouble with no video once on my G4 400 I had to remove the video card and put it back in again.
This is OS8.6 and the standard Rage 128 Pro card.
And when you change the resolution on it there is no confirmation dialog box - it just does it.

Offline part12studios

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ok cool should i try booting it without the card once to flush it?  otherwise would it really know it even came out or not with power off?

i have a 2nd video card i bought to do dual monitors with it so i might bring that out too just to troubleshoot like you suggested.. its a PCI card and i have seen it work though i still have to figure out how to install video card drivers on OS9..  it seems the drivers the card came with were not in an "exe" per se..

Thanks,
Caleb

Online ovalking

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If I recall correctly, I just took the card out and put it back in again (unpowered). I was not expecting it to have any effect!

Offline GaryN

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... is there really something different in the buttons?  my understand is that the windows icon is the same physically (keyboard mapping-wise) as the command and alt is the option button..

It depends on the particular kbd. You would think they'd just work but not always. There are lots of little things that sometimes prevent Mac parts and PC parts from playing well together. Some have good, justifiable reasons and some are just designed to keep you from wandering off the reservation - annoying as hell, but true.

about getting a mac keyboard.. would a modern mac keyboard be ok?  or would I want to find one contemporary to the model?  it's all USB so I would think so but I'm not wanting to make any assumptions. 

Any Mac USB kbd will work.

Here's an idea…Try this:
1) Power on
2) Immediately after the chime, try holding [Command - Option - P - R] until you get a second chime
3) Release and pray
4) Holla back

Offline part12studios

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 11:29:33 AM »
Hi everyone, so this took a back seat for awhile as i had some other pressing sampler / music studio things to get through before tackling this..  AND I have since acquired a propery mac keyboard.  not quite G4 era.. but not the latest generation either..  so I did some more testing and here is where i'm at with some videos to help support what i'm talking about.

1. i removed the card / reinstalled it..  no driver changes or anything.  this didn't effect anything.

2. i have a pci video card that is OS9 friendly..  but i haven't installed proper drivers for it (didn't understand where to put the files, didn't have a standard "installer" type thing for drivers.. gotta look into that..   this worked but only at 640x320 or something like that.. no screen options because there are no drivers..  this was bought to allow dual monitors eventually.  i really want the original card to work.

3. ok so booting with various commands and results.. here are the videos that show where i'm at and still need help:
https://youtu.be/RBhnZQuq9UA - this shows what normally happens
https://youtu.be/RZEl01Irp5w - this shows me holding the shift key which avoids the extensions i think..
https://youtu.be/G73yNOEHitQ - this shows that the card is healthy.. booting to OSX

So my question would be where do i go to re-install either just the drivers or maybe i can do a "reinstall" of OS9 that would overwrite the core stuff but not require me to wipe everything and start over..  the nuclear option is ok... i have the disks and stuff.. but i just would like to avoid that if possible.

I can't wait to work this out so i can get it setup as my new DAW!  :) 


Thanks,
Caleb


Offline GaryN

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 04:31:57 PM »
Those videos are (finally) very revealing. Whatever video card(s) you're using, it (they) don't work. The original Sawtooth video card was an "ATI Rage 128 Pro" with 1 VGA OR 1 DVI-D out. This card goes in the AGP slot and the drivers for it are already in the OS9 software package.

When you say "I have a PCI video card that is OS9 friendly..but i haven't installed proper drivers for it"  I start to worry.
Then "this was bought to allow dual monitors eventually.  i really want the original card to work."
The "original card" (A) does not support dual monitors and (B) any PCI-based this-card-was-from-something-else-but-with-luck-I-can-get-it-to-display-stuff-beyond-the-original-capabilities-of-my-computer strategy probably not going to work.

Try This Using the Rage 128 original video card:
1. Boot OSX (since you can):
2. GOTO  << OS9/System Folder/Extensions >>
3. Verify that there are 4 to 6 ATI extensions there (I'm not sure exactly how many in a sawtooth)
     If they are NOT there - you'll need to find fresh copies somewhere and put them back - otherwise…
4.  GOTO << OS9/System Folder/Preferences/Display Preferences >>
5. Drag the "Display Preferences" OUT of the System Folder - anywhere is fine, just OUT of the System Folder
6. Reboot into OS9
7. Cross your fingers and pray

You should find yourself with a normal OS9 Desktop and a new "Display Preferences" file in the System folder Preferences.
Then you can…

8. Stop trying to get a 300-500 Mhz machine to support multiple monitors. If you want big graphics, get a later machine.
    (Just my opinion, but I think it's sensible)

Holla back…

Offline part12studios

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 05:16:40 PM »
ok that's super helpful..  let me clear things up on the physical card stuff:

- i definitely have the ATI Rage 128 card in it..  it came with it. it's the original AGP video card

- soon after buying it.. i bought an http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-G4-G5-ATI-Radeon-7000-PCI-64MB-Video-Card-DVI-VGA-S-Video-TV-Out-OS9-/200710223413?hash=item2ebb42f635:m:mosu41F9PFEhHQf6EhSbdGA ATI Radeon 7000 PCI 64MB Video Card (specifically sold on ebay as an OS9 compatible card in bulk so it's not like this was some one off item for sale) and hey it was $30.. a fair risk.  That's the card that i don't have drivers installed for yet. i tested it out by booting up and hooking the monitor up to it instead of the Rage.. and it worked.. but only with the default resolution.. never new where to put the driver files I downloaded (instructions came with the PCI video card. 

my understanding is that OS9 can do dual monitors but simply required additional video cards.. yes I can imagine the Rage itself doesn't support dual. (using the dvi + vga together) though i am kinda surprised, but it's ok.. that's why i got the pci video card as instructed in the other OS9lives forum thread.

i used to do dual monitors on slower windows machines than the G4, it's not really taxing on the cpu.. or the hardware.. but i appreciate the advice and yea if it's problematic i won't bother with it.  Really this issue has nothing to do with that anyway..  what seemed to be the moment things went bad was simply when i selected a funky resolution that my 26" Samsung 720p monitor didn't appear to like.. and the OS didn't seem to offer any kind of reversion after so many seconds it just lost it.. and was whacky ever since.. :)

I'll give that a go and report back shortly! 


Thanks,
Caleb

Offline GaryN

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 05:56:33 PM »
I looked up the 7000 card and yes, that should (emphasis - should) successfully add a second monitor when used alongside the Rage AGP card. The ATI drivers go in the System Folder/Extensions Folder where the Rage ones are.

Got my fingers crossed for ya…

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 09:31:13 PM »
  Most Mac video cards of the period physically lacked a second video path and engine in the controller chip - they were truly single-monitor capable only.  Dual monitors on OS 9 doesn't require two video cards though, but there are limited options for compatible cards.  I'm typing this message right now on a functioning dual monitor arrangement I'm testing on an OEM ATI Radeon 9000 Pro 32MB AGP ADC/DVI card in a Sawtooth.  An ADC-based video card will apparently work in the Sawtooth AGP slot minus the ability to directly power an ADC monitor (as in my successful tests in the Xserve AGP slot prior).  In my test I used an ADC-to-DVI adapter to hook up a DVI monitor, and a DVI-to-VGA adapter on the second port to hook up a VGA monitor as the second screen.  (It probably supports two digital monitors but I don't have a second one handy at the moment.)  I'm actually really glad this thread prompted me to test this config because I'd never tried it before on OS 9.  The Radeon 9000 Pro supports widescreen resolutions which is awesome!  For the test the DVI monitor is running a native 1920x1080 with the VGA monitor at its native 1024x768 as the second screen.  Later I'll get another DVI widescreen monitor over here to the test machine and see what happens with two of them at once.

  I also have a Retail Mac Edition Radeon 9200LE PCI card currently running in my OS 9-booting Xserve.  This card will do dual VGA or one DVI + one VGA.  I presume an Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti 4600 is also capable of the same arrangement as the Radeon 9000 Pro mentioned above.  Someone else please chime in and add to that list if I missed anything.

Offline GaryN

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2016, 09:43:53 PM »
Interesting. I wonder just what actual effect it all has running a 4x AGP such as a Ti 4600 in a 2x AGP slot in a Sawtooth…

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2016, 09:58:26 PM »
  The AGP specification allows for the ability of the cards to automatically sense the slot mode and downgrade their operating mode accordingly.  Not all cards allow all slower modes though.  That is more the question regarding the TI 4600 - will it work in 2x mode at all.  If it does it will just be accordingly slower.

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2016, 10:19:00 PM »
  I believe the Mac Edition ATI Radeon 8500 AGP card is another candidate, with the same port configuration as the 9200LE.

Offline part12studios

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 10:58:52 AM »
the preferences trick did the trick!  unit is back in action :)   it scared me at first though when i rebooted because i saw the crazy graphics again.. but after a few seconds it then reset and booted normally.  then a second reboot went fine.  whew..

now to get those drivers for the PCI card installed and thanks to this thread I also know what to do for that as well.

Thanks!
Caleb

Offline GaryN

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 04:00:08 PM »
Glad to hear it!

Offline geforceg4

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2016, 04:14:50 PM »
  I believe the Mac Edition ATI Radeon 8500 AGP card is another candidate, with the same port configuration as the 9200LE.

radeon 8500 is one of the best cards for the g4 in my opinion because of its 100% solid drivers.. and its like 3rd best in performance next to the ti4400 + ti4600 cards

Offline part12studios

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 05:39:31 PM »
so yea i did get the other card installed and it seems to work, but i have had trouble getting the 2nd video card to show anything but 1024x768 as an option.. there is only "recommended" no "all" option. 

When I copied over the drivers from this page http://howfunkel.com/ and drag them over (i had to extract the hqx file since i didn't have a native OS9 app to unzip these) but it made a folder of files.. more than 6-9 files..  but when i did it.. it messed things up again..

but another OSX reboot as instructed and i was back in business..  so yea at this point it feels like using the drivers provided a the link are bad as they mess up the Rage 128..  so anyway it's minor for now since i don't have room for a dual monitor setup in the music studio.. too much other gear competing for precious table space..

Thanks for the tip on the card.. i'm not doing any 3d gaming and such so the rage is plenty for me.. and i only have one agp slot so replacing it seems like a bad idea, unless you're saying cards like the 8500 themselves do support dual monitor from that single card.  That could be a game changer. 

Thanks,
Caleb

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2016, 08:44:15 PM »
  Just a quick follow-up to something I said earlier - I've now tested the Radeon 9000 Pro AGP card with two DVI monitors attached.  The first screen is 1920x1080 and the second is 1920x1200, both the native resolutions of these LCDs.  I prefer to use pairs of monitors in a vertical stack configuration so I can have roughly a page-proportion view spanning the two monitors.  (I have this config on two PCs with stacked 1440x900 monitors making for a combined resolution of 1440x1800.)  This gave me a combined resolution of a 1920x2280!  I can fit almost the entire length of the MacOS9Lives.com forum home page in view without scrolling.  This is the largest OS 9 desktop I've ever had working - Pretty damned awesome!  I'm going to have to buy more of these cards since they seem like a good OS 9 2D solution for dual-digital and are probably much easier come by at better cost than dual-digital Geforce cards.  I should also mention that the 9000 is fanless - that combined with the screen area I can achieve is going to make for some extremely pleasant DAW usage.  It also seems like the most sensible card to permanently install in my OS 9-on-Xserve machine because it will physically fit in the available space and doesn't require an additional power input.

  Next I did something I've absolutely never tried.  Leaving the 9000 in as described above, I then added the Radeon 7000 PCI back in and hooked up the 1024x768 LCD as a third display.  That worked too and seems to have been accepted perfectly fine simultaneously by the ATI Displays control.  This now makes me wonder what the physical permitted limit really is for number of monitors on OS 9.  I love experiments in maxing out hardware, so this will encourage me to try some very ridiculous configs.  I'll report back on my findings later.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 09:01:25 PM by MacOS Plus »

Offline part12studios

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2016, 01:13:21 AM »
yea that's really cool.  i've done the vertical stacking before too and it's really nice for things like you said.. forums.. and pdfs.. and spreadsheets. 

I will look into those cards.

the question of how many.. i bet there is no real limit beyond the physical number of cards you have.. each card handles the workload of displaying so it's not likely to tax the OS significantly.. and it's all digital management so i imagine more

I did an OSX test with a program called "air display" which allowed me to hook up to 4 iOS devices to an OSX machine..  so it was a macbook pro and a 26" vertical monitor.. plus an ipad and two iPhones.. all working as extend monitors.. heh..  good times

Caleb

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: having a hell of a time with two different monitors with OS9 on Sawtooth
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2016, 06:08:07 PM »
yea that's really cool.  i've done the vertical stacking before too and it's really nice for things like you said.. forums.. and pdfs.. and spreadsheets. 

I will look into those cards.

the question of how many.. i bet there is no real limit beyond the physical number of cards you have.. each card handles the workload of displaying so it's not likely to tax the OS significantly.. and it's all digital management so i imagine more

I did an OSX test with a program called "air display" which allowed me to hook up to 4 iOS devices to an OSX machine..  so it was a macbook pro and a 26" vertical monitor.. plus an ipad and two iPhones.. all working as extend monitors.. heh..  good times

Caleb

  That Air Display thing sounds right up my alley!  I'm definitely going to try that out some time.