G4 OS9 options for SMDI file transfers for Akai 612

[part12studios]

@IIO
yea so it's (as i understand it) not just a straight "sysex dump" which is certainly more common.  It's a protocol referred to as SDS in my experience with other programs like C6 (OSX app) and my Peavey SP.   However even this (something that is supported by programs like recycle 2.0) isn't enough.  The early Akai samplers had "drivers" of some sort to allow proper communication with the hardware.  The S700 and S7000 are also ones that worked with programs like sample wrench.  I don't know how many other Akai samplers were of this ilk, but i'm sure it wasn't long after this when they moved to 16bit samples that they also implemented SDS in a standard form. 

As to the question of how it sends/receives.  That's a great question.  I've never got to the point of retrieving a sample from the S612 on the mac.  My first goal would simply be to push a 12 bit sample from the Mac to it.  Then the reverse would be next on the list.  None of the programs I have tried so far got me very close to being able to try.  As stated below, seems like all of the programs I have tried don't seem to allow me to talk to MOTU hardware I have.  they are simpler programs that don't seem to know how to select which of the 24 MIDI IN / OUTs I have.  I think maybe they assume I'm just using a serial MIDI interface with a single IN/OUT like my Amiga 1200 has. 

@macStuff
true, it it's just been elusive and not widely known information.  sample wrench was easy to come cross and learn about and from various s612 resources this again seemed to be the direction people have been pointing.  So it just didn't seem that the OS9 solution was widely known. 

Thanks for pointing to that link.  there was one thing in there i missed last time.  MSD?  What is that?  This might be the silver bullet.  The only person so far i've heard who actually used something OS9 based to successfully talk to the S612.

I did try Alchemy but this is a problem i've run into before with some of these older programs.  my MIDI setup is using x2 MOTU MTP (networked) and a MIDIExpress (usb).  This gives me 24 MIDI IN/OUT.  However these programs from what i could see didn't seem to have a way to address selecting one of these many MIDI IN/OUT ports so there doesn't seem to be a way to "see" those devices. 

I admit though I've had little experience really messing with OMS and such.  Using MOTU gear with Digital Performer has been nice.  I've tinkered with that stuff in the past without any success.  Having never seen some of this stuff work right in the first place makes for uncertainty to know how close i am to getting things to work right.  can OMS non-motu hardware see the various ins and outs of MOTU hardare like this?  or were they (understandably) just thinking the typical customer was using a simple hardwired MIDI IN/OUT/THRU box?

In the case of my Amiga 1200, I have a parallel MIDI interface that has no drivers, it's just an interface (1 in 1 out, 1 thru) that (most) amiga software works with just fine without any drivers or settings.  I guess they just wrote to hardware and hardware knew to make their devices follow some standard.  (the plug and play of a bygone era)

If I had a simple MIDI IN/OUT interface, maybe this would be more successful.  Maybe I should be on the look out for another usb MIDI interface that would be specifically for non MOTU hardware.  Although this kinda sucks because then i have to plug / unplug various devices to route things or invest in some pricey MIDI Solutions products splitting and merging midi to allow this.  Money I'm not really looking to spend.

I'm also considering either giving the Amiga an IN and and OUT to the MOTU MIDI hardware and dusting off sample wrench and also getting an old 700mhz xp dell laptop to run sample wrench..   but this hits another issue I've not had any luck with.  routing MIDI info from one non-Mac based device to another device in the MOTU midi interface independent of the mac..   like how to have the Amiga or PC's midi info know to go from itself to a particular device.  The Midi Time Piece AVs are cool in that they do have some internal hardware configuration abilities because it has an actual interface (unlike the MIDIExpress which relies on software to do anything custom other than the basic modes it supports).

[part12studios]

Also, using MSD, what interface were you sending the information over to the S612? 

[macStuff]

what is MSD?  I missed this in the previous reply.  I've tried a few different programs but MSD isn't ringing a bell.

hes making a shortform acronym for "Midi Sample Dump"
transferring the S612's sample via Midi instead of serial (or scsi as you would on another sampler that has SCSI)

[IIO]

I still have a broken one which I might fix someday if I ever get the time. And maybe add CV summers so I can externally modulate the loop slider controls.

probably the best mod you can add.

[IIO]

@IIO
yea so it's (as i understand it) not just a straight "sysex dump" which is certainly more common.  It's a protocol referred to as SDS

yeah one should have guessed that you mean sample dump. the machine doenst have much parameters anyway which would be worth saving on a host computer.

i remember that it didnt come with a sysex dump request in "normal" form, and not beeing metioned in the manual. but if you google about the mahcine you find people who got it working in cakewalk cal or the logic enviroment, so "something" is there. midi sample dump shoould also work, but probably mor elikely with a recent app than with one from back in the days. eventually it even requires a thir party firmware update to the akai.

[IIO]

this is the guy who wrote the firmware http://www.plontke.de/
the manual is german only.

...

here is the data format of the 612 (seems i was wrong, it looks pretty normal)

request dump
F0 47 00 41 20 41 F7

answer
F0 47 00 44 20 41
64 data bytes
F7

request the first 512 samples
F0 47 00 41 20 21 F7

answer
F0 47 00 44 20 21
512 data bytes
F7

if you repeat the request, it will send the next 512 samples.

not sure how to interrupt/reset it. a host app would just have to wait until an empty block of 512 bytes arrive.

with standard memory you´d have to repeat the sample dump request exactly 128 times to get everything

since there are no 12 bit audio data formats on mac os 9 (you could do that with windows wave) you should save to text or binary format. or as a midi / sysex file for that matter - or in your case you´d just record it onto a DP midi track.

[IIO]

there are two threads about remoting an S-612 now.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5111.msg38512/topicseen.html#new

[part12studios]

yea maybe we could merge them.. or at the very least move future comments over to the link IIO has provided above to keep the conversation in one area. 

[part12studios]

does anyone here have unisyn 1.5 working on their Mac?  I tried to get it working on mine.  I found an OS9 version but I recall it wanting some kind of dongle or other authentication that I didn't posess.  maybe there is a crack someone knows about that would bypass this additional security?  Using DP3.11 I understand unisyn can work with it in an integrated manner. this would be amazing if i could get it installed correctly. 

I know that MOTU FreeMIDI acknowledges the S612 among many other pieces of hardware and that gives me some hope / possibility that it might support this.  That might be another option to explore, but i hit a wall on that one. 

[IIO]

i have yet to find the sysex string for sending a dumped content back to the machine which seems to be nowhere documented. then i can provide you a pluggo plug-in for DP where you can just press buttons for "send" and "receive".

eventually it will make a difference if you use 1.3 or earlier. with 1.3 the first sample block is used for parameter data.

[IIO]

btw a midi sample dump for a meg of RAM will takje more than 100 seconds. but it is still doable (compared to an E-4)

[IIO]

answer
F0 47 00 44 20 21
512 data bytes
F7

i think this is an error in the manual. a 12 bit sample requries 2 bytes, so 512 samples should be 1024 data bytes, not 512. we will see.

[Protools5LEGuy]

Merge done

[Protools5LEGuy]

there are two threads about remoting an S-612 now.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5111.msg38512/topicseen.html#new

Now only one

[macStuff]

OK so I installed OMS and (to those who know I'm sure they are not surprised) it seems that OMS still only wants to talk to serial / printer ports, not USB.  Maybe there is a USB capable version that would see it?

Freemidi saw OMS installed and so did D-Sound but they still don't see the MIDIExpress and MTP AV.

you havent configured your interface properly in oms setup then which is an absolutely critical step (as you have found out)
i suggest u start by reading the manual for the MTP AV USB
https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/midi/MIDI_Timepiece_AV_USB_User_Guide_Mac.pdf

and downloading the right version of OMS
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/opcode/_OMS/
not sure which version you used previously, but it couldnt be 2.3.8
if you already tried 2.3.8 perhaps your MTP AV USB is damaged or not functioning correctly

we need to make a guide or something
programs made before a certain date arent going to suppoort OMS at all,
i think i tried to make a thread that detailed exactly which versions of popular daw apps when OMS support was introduced
you need an app that supports what u are wanting to do as well as the interface you own (to state the obvious)
so you arent far off the mark saying that you might be better off with a simpler midi interface
the type that were common before OMS became the norm (around 1993?) but if you use the right versions of software and or emply the right technique with software you should be able to accomplish your goal.

passport alchemy v3 is from around 1996 i believe and should be able to accomplish what your wanting to do
if u read this article  https://www.scribd.com/document/311193555/Passport-Alchemy-3-0-User-Manual
http://web.archive.org/web/20110605124420/http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/jun96/passportalchemy.html/
it even says explicitly "Finally, support has also been added for Opcode's OMS and for MTP-compatible multi-port MIDI interfaces."

i dont have a usb version of the MTP AV to be able to test your scenario exactly
and im still waiting to hear what macintosh computer you actually are using..
but i would say that unless you have the usb interface set up properly in OMS
its no wonder youve not had success

untill u have oms installed properly and u have used oms setup to do the old "midi received" debug process you havent got your interface setup yet;
"Midi Recieved" "Midi Recieved" "Midi Recieved"

[GaryN]

Having just finished posting on http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5304.0/topicseen.html

This is exactly what I was talking about.

There is an "OMS USB Driver" extension that must be present for OMS to "see" the USB bus.
Make sure you have it and it's enabled.

Ain't this a riot?   

[IIO]

one of the main things that people miss is to install the OMS driver of their interface.

which only installs from the device´s driver installer app when OMS is already preset at that time.

in other words: you must first install OMS, reboot, then install the drivers of your interface (again) to now magically be in posession of the OMS driver (and not only the usb driver) for that particular device.


those who haven seen that before might think that

/extensions/usb midex driver
and
/OMS folder/USB

will be enough, but it isnt. you also need something like

OMS folder/midex driver


then you can still not use the interface - you also have to create a "new OMS setup". only by now your interface ports will show up in all applications.

[part12studios]

that may be what i missed.  i will try more OMS again and see.  FreeMIDI is great with MOTU software, but I've not found it to be much use outside of DP3 which is the only program I have and subsequent drivers for MOTU hardware.