Author Topic: MDD consultation needed  (Read 5855 times)

Offline Mat

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MDD consultation needed
« on: June 12, 2016, 10:00:19 PM »
Hi!

Today I would need some advice from people familiar with the MDDs. I plan to get an MDD and always looked for a well working native bootable 1.25 DP. Now I got the possibility for a cheap 1,25 GHz SP one (the 2004 model). And before I use another two days on the net I wanted to ask you for the board and CPU differences. ;)
The only difference everymac is telling me is the L2 cache. The 1.25 DP got 2MB while the 1.25 SP got 1. Is the 2MB of the DP for both CPUs or 2 MB per CPU?
Are there any other differences of the mainboards. Systembus is the same as the RAM controller and IDE, ...

Then I wanted to know where the Cache is located. Is it at the G4 daughtercard? So do I swap the L2 when I swap the CPU?

Last question, can I put every MDD CPU in every MDD? I got a broken 1.25 DP around. As the SP 2004 model was available BTO with a DP CPU, I think so, but I would like to get it confirmed.

Anything else what I didn't think about and why I should go on seeking for an original DP 2002 model, as it brings more performance in any area?

Ah, ... and the machine would have got two 1GB RAMs working well with X. Might that be a problem for 9, or is it only connected to the hardware itselve?

Offline Metrophage

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 11:26:35 PM »
I have used a few MDDs.

The only difference everymac is telling me is the L2 cache. The 1.25 DP got 2MB while the 1.25 SP got 1. Is the 2MB of the DP for both CPUs or 2 MB per CPU?

Then I wanted to know where the Cache is located. Is it at the G4 daughtercard? So do I swap the L2 when I swap the CPU?

Now that you mention it, I don't know for sure! I have been assuming that there is 1MB cache on the card for each 1.25 CPU, being why the dual is 2MB.

Are there any other differences of the mainboards. Systembus is the same as the RAM controller and IDE, ...

Last question, can I put every MDD CPU in every MDD? I got a broken 1.25 DP around. As the SP 2004 model was available BTO with a DP CPU, I think so, but I would like to get it confirmed.

Anything else what I didn't think about and why I should go on seeking for an original DP 2002 model, as it brings more performance in any area?

They are all nearly identical, with one big exception - not all 2002 G4s are the same. The dual 867 MHz M8787LL/A model is IIRC the only MDD to use a slower 133 MHz system bus, compared to the usual 167 MHz. Both the dual 867 MHz and dual 1 GHz have less L3 cache than the 1.25-1.42 models - 1 MB total for both processors. But, as I said, I am guessing that these caches reside on the CPU cards, so they would then get swapped out with the processor. There might be some sort of multiplier hack to enable a 167 MHz bus on these slower systems, but I have not looked into it.

As for other details of the logic boards and chips, I have not noticed any significant differences, apart from the entry-level 133 MHz bus, and the later FW800 which does not natively boot OS 9. Somebody with better eyes than me could perhaps compare the chips on the board.

In my experience, all of the MDD CPU cards are inter-operable. I have put a few of these systems together for people over the years out of spare parts and experienced no anomalies. Also, the MDD CPUs can be exchanged with those from Xserve G4s, but the heatsinks are not compatable so you'd still need a MDD/FW800 heatsink. The copper heatsinks are more effective than the aluminum ones.

Ah, ... and the machine would have got two 1GB RAMs working well with X. Might that be a problem for 9, or is it only connected to the hardware itselve?

It's a tricky question that might depend upon what OS 9 software you use. You can install up to 2GB of RAM in a MDD tower, which makes OS X much happier. If your OS 9 system is stable with the extra RAM installed then this is the easiest situation. But if there are stability problems or programs crashing I would try running it with only 1GB. Since my current system is used almost entirely for OS 9, I have only 1GB in it now for simplicity.

Offline MacTron

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 08:13:52 AM »
Hi!

Today I would need some advice from people familiar with the MDDs. I plan to get an MDD and always looked for a well working native bootable 1.25 DP. Now I got the possibility for a cheap 1,25 GHz SP one (the 2004 model). And before I use another two days on the net I wanted to ask you for the board and CPU differences. ;)
The only difference everymac is telling me is the L2 cache. The 1.25 DP got 2MB while the 1.25 SP got 1. Is the 2MB of the DP for both CPUs or 2 MB per CPU?

The L2 is 256k in ALL original MDDs, You are referring to L3 cache.

Quote
Are there any other differences of the mainboards. Systembus is the same as the RAM controller and IDE, ...

The MDD FW800 have some extra chips and connectors and the 133 Mhz bus model was shipped with slower RAM also. The remaining stuff is virtually identical.

Quote
Then I wanted to know where the Cache is located. Is it at the G4 daughtercard? So do I swap the L2 when I swap the CPU?
Yes it is. And also is true for the L3 Cache.

Quote
Last question, can I put every MDD CPU in every MDD? I got a broken 1.25 DP around. As the SP 2004 model was available BTO with a DP CPU, I think so, but I would like to get it confirmed.

It can be interchangeable, but taking into account the buss speed.

Quote
Anything else what I didn't think about and why I should go on seeking for an original DP 2002 model, as it brings more performance in any area?

My favorite CPU for the MDD is the single 1.33 with 2Mb of L3 from xServe G4.

Quote
Ah, ... and the machine would have got two 1GB RAMs working well with X. Might that be a problem for 9, or is it only connected to the hardware itselve?

It's a tricky question that might depend upon what OS 9 software you use. You can install up to 2GB of RAM in a MDD tower, which makes OS X much happier. If your OS 9 system is stable with the extra RAM installed then this is the easiest situation. But if there are stability problems or programs crashing I would try running it with only 1GB. Since my current system is used almost entirely for OS 9, I have only 1GB in it now for simplicity.

I'm using 1.5 Gb of RAM since 2002, without any issue ...

Both the dual 867 MHz and dual 1 GHz have less L3 cache than the 1.25-1.42 models - 1 MB total for both processors.
No at all. Nor the L1,L2 or L3 are shared. And in the MDDs are 1 MB or 2 MB of L3 always for each CPU.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline Mat

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2016, 10:22:53 AM »
Of course you are right, I was talking about the L3 Cache!

And I am really just talking about the two 1,25 GHz MDDs that can boot 9 natively. The 1,25 DP (2002) and the 1,25 SP (2004). Not about the FW800 and not about the previous 133MHz Systembus models.

So there is really no other difference except the CPU daughtercard,  right? I am wondering how the original price evolved $3300 vs. $1300, just the dual CPU and the peripherials, ... ?

I know that you like the 1,33 GHz CPU most, but I would like to setup a dualboot Mac OS 9 and Linux Mint PPC, so the 2nd CPU is of great help. Also I use several of the programs that can use the 2nd CPU.

And the RAM question was not because of 1 or 1,5 or 2GB, but because of the two single 1 GB modules

Offline DieHard

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2016, 03:35:29 PM »
Quote
I know that you like the 1,33 GHz CPU most, but I would like to setup a dualboot Mac OS 9 and Linux Mint PPC, so the 2nd CPU is of great help. Also I use several of the programs that can use the 2nd CPU.

Be aware that the 2 CPU units run a lot Hotter, that is why Mactron and I both use singe CPU units dedicated for OS 9.  There are so many super cheap units (like original Mac Pro Quad Core (2 X Dual Core) $175) that run OS X and Linix much faster.

Offline Mat

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 04:25:45 PM »
Be aware that the 2 CPU units run a lot Hotter, that is why Mactron and I both use singe CPU units dedicated for OS 9.  There are so many super cheap units (like original Mac Pro Quad Core (2 X Dual Core) $175) that run OS X and Linix much faster.
I know. ;) But as you know I don´t like X and will never use it, so I have no need for another computer. And why not having Linux at my main machine then, so that I can workaround the few things that I cannot do with Mac OS 9 (without the need to get to some PC)? And finally I got the broken 1,42 GHz DP CPU daughtercard around for free. And in winter it doesn´t matter as I neverthless heat with electricity. ;)

Back on Topic, are there any differences of those two boards that you know? And are for sure all MDD 167MHz CUP daugtercards interoperable? I don´t like to pay for that single CPU Mac to face any problems later.

Offline GaryN

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 06:36:50 PM »
All daughtercards are interchangeable. Also, the bus speed can be changed (133 - 167) by adding / subtracting resistors.

Offline Mat

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 02:21:42 PM »
OK, so there are really no other differences?
Why was the DP from 2002 then 3300 and the last SP MDD "just" 1300? Really just the missing Superdrive, RAM and 2nd CPU? Hmm, ...

Offline GaryN

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 03:15:52 PM »
Do you really think the actual component costs are the only thing that determines the selling price? It's called marketing, man. The then-new latest and greatest in 2002 was worth $3300 because that's what people were willing to pay for it. The last ones were just marking time until the G5. The $1300 price helped clear out the inventory.

Offline DieHard

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 04:11:42 PM »
The Marketing idea is 100% correct, there was still a great market for an OS9 MDD in 2003.  The FW800 units were basically not selling like they thought and Apple never planned to re-issue a Classic Mac OS Bootable MDD. 

They were under pressure from professional users (and the educational market) that were not ready for the move to X, and who were also waiting for developers to get the X apps up to speed (many had bugs and less features that their OS 9 counterparts, and some were still vaporware); Apple was able to capitalized on the last "OS 9" wave and Re-issue a bootable OS9 MDD 6 months after they gave up on 9.2.2.

Hmmm, I guess the last "OS 9 Wave" is still rippling


Offline Mat

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 11:41:18 PM »
Yeah guys. I like that meta-level. And especially the story that "we" forced that international concern to again produce an G4 MDD for Mac OS 9, two years after the great Steve played his funeral, should never be forgotten!

I am just a little bit curious, as it is usually my part to play the offtopic guy, who likes to blame Apple for all the bad decisions the last 18 years in every thread ;)

Offline mrhappy

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Re: MDD consultation needed
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 08:10:48 AM »

Hmmm, I guess the last "OS 9 Wave" is still rippling

Yes... That's what I was thinking!! ;D