Author Topic: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?  (Read 5602 times)

Offline RTIInstaller

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5.1.3 Trying to learn some of the midi tricks, especially with combining midi tracks sourced from different projects into a single session, even those with slightly different time signatures.

Many Thanks
 :)

Offline mrhappy

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 06:02:50 AM »
'Advanced MIDI' = Large Advil bottle!!! ;D ;D ;D

Last I was heavily into MIDI was the late 80's with a Mac Plus/ OS 6.x using Performer so I doubt I'd I have many relevant tips!! Haha! It DOES seem that most around here are more midi dependent/fluent though, so I'd imagine there will be many tips/ help from the '9Lives' gang!!

I'm seeing a return to MIDI on my horizon so I'm interested too! ;D ;D

I had my MIDI rig chasing 2 reel to reels that were synced to each other and I was always amazed that it actually worked reliably!

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 09:46:11 AM »
The most advanced thing I do to MIDI PT project is bpm change across timeline.

And "reverse engineering" the BPM of a given audio that has bpm changes every bar.
Code: [Select]

Apple + I

(IIRC).

I would playback all the midi project on one machine and record it with another as if it were audio one after the other. Then I would "lock" some BPM changes on the timeline. Once the BPM are "locked" I would use the scissor and distribute al the MIDI objects across the project.

You can also help PT to put the midi in order. Forcing 1st project to be on bar 1, the second on bar 150, the 3rd on 300 bar, etc.

You should check how Logic merge midi files, and maybe use it to merge all the midi and export that project to a midi file.

To read the MIDI chapter from http://akarchive.digidesign.com/support/docs/PT_5.3_Reference_Guide.pdf wont harm you either.  ;D

Specially chapter 9, 13, 15, 23, 24 and 25
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 09:19:34 PM »
The most advanced thing I do to MIDI PT project is bpm change across timeline.

And "reverse engineering" the BPM of a given audio that has bpm changes every bar.
Code: [Select]

Apple + I

(IIRC).

I would playback all the midi project on one machine and record it with another as if it were audio one after the other. Then I would "lock" some BPM changes on the timeline. Once the BPM are "locked" I would use the scissor and distribute al the MIDI objects across the project.

You can also help PT to put the midi in order. Forcing 1st project to be on bar 1, the second on bar 150, the 3rd on 300 bar, etc.

You should check how Logic merge midi files, and maybe use it to merge all the midi and export that project to a midi file.

To read the MIDI chapter from http://akarchive.digidesign.com/support/docs/PT_5.3_Reference_Guide.pdf wont harm you either.  ;D

Specially chapter 9, 13, 15, 23, 24 and 25

O goodie more reading  ;)

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 09:25:06 PM »
So you are saying make sure the first note of the first midi file is on the first bar, which I have done and then I usually use the beat tool to set the time signature for everything off that first file.

I am not sure I understand why you would use bar 150 and 300 for subsequent imported midi tracks?

Can you add a bit more detail as to how this works?

Offline IIO

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM »
midi files can have two types of tempo info in their header: ticks per quarter note and/or ticks per smpte (sub)frame.

the first one, ppq, is what most music sofware uses.

if two midifiles have different tempos, you can not merge them unless you have an application which is able to override and change the tempo when inserting them - or allow multiple tempi on different tracks.

in practice your best bet is to use an extra utility which can change the tempo of the files in nonrealtime.

but note that this will cause hughe delta time offsets when the resolution of the file is low.



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Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 12:47:22 AM »
Going to coat tail on this thread rather than start a new one for no good reason  8)

Tools Mix 5.1.3
OS9.2.2
Opcode Studio 4 (works great, but had to build my own Din cable) I have used it to record many midi sessions with out any problems.

Activity-
I just bought an Arturia Keystep controller arpeggiator. Trying to get the key step to follow MMC coming from tools, while tools beat step is enabled.

Problem--
When I start tools, the key step (which is set to midi slave mode) sees the MMC signal and attempts to play the keys I am holding down as an arpeggiation sequence, but the arpeggiation is playing at about 10 times faster than the speed you would expect. and the tempo light on the arturia flases rapidly, Tools is currently set to 100 BPM and is in grid mode.

I used beat detective to grab the tempo off a drum WAV

I am pretty sure I have a midi feedback loop, the tempo light on the keystep flashes rapidly & all 8 lights on the studio 4 freeze in the on position until I pull the keystep's midi out cord. On my midi track, it doesn't seem to matter what I select for the input or output it still goes into the midi feedback loop as soon as I press play. If I pull the midi output and press play on tools you can see the tempo light on the keystep flash normally in sync with the session like it is supposed to do.  I am not sure what to do about this problem.

Thank you for any Help   :P





Offline mrhappy

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 02:51:02 AM »
Hey that Keystep looks like a bunch of Midi fun waiting to happen... that is, once you get the loop problem sorted.  ;D

When I used to get a Midi loop it was usually due to a 'Local' switch on the keyboard being in the wrong setting... could it be something like that??

sorry... that's all i've got at the moment! ;D

Offline mrhappy

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 02:53:17 AM »
That thing probably doesn't produce it's own sounds so i guess my guess doesn't make any sense!  ;D

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 08:58:37 AM »
That thing probably doesn't produce it's own sounds so i guess my guess doesn't make any sense!  ;D

The Keystep is just a controller/ sequencer / arpeg. Really easy to use highly rated device.  It has a PC / OSX midi setup utility via USB that I am using, but nothing in those settings have resolved the problem, including midi through.

Everything else midi I am doing works. Including playing the keystep which is running through the Studio4 through tools and back out to my Emulator 4 keyboard which responds faithfully to every note without fail. it is only when I press play on tools that the lock up happens.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 03:03:11 PM »
Trying to get the key step to follow MMC coming from tools, while tools beat step is enabled.

Problem--
When I start tools, the key step (which is set to midi slave mode) sees the MMC signal and attempts to play the keys I am holding down

Your guess that you have a feedback loop is 100% correct. The question now is: What is feeding back?
These may just be mislabeling on your part, but I'll have to ask:

MMC is "MIDI Machine Control" Are you actually attempting to send that to the Keystep to follow? It is not the same thing as MIDI sync.

"while tools beat step is enabled"   What do you mean?

And finally, just so I'm sure I actually understand all of this, you're:

1) Starting PT, wanting it to send "start" and sync out through the Studio 4 to the Keystep
2) Wanting the Keystep arpeggiator to respond and return MIDI notes of the keys you're holding down, in sync, back in through
     the Studio 4, through PT and back out again through the Studio 4 to the Emu or other sound mod.

Off the top of my head, even before going into why you want this, it doesn't seem to make logical sense and doesn't sound like something the Studio 4 and PT (or any other DAW) can or will do.

You've proven that something is looping back through the system and reeking havoc but you don't know what it is.
It might be MIDI Time Code generated by PT along with MMC.
Whatever it is, it's getting back into PT so…PT must be enabling something to affect it that appears at the serial in on the computer.
You need to find out what that is. Again: What do you mean by "while tools beat step is enabled" ?


Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 03:33:21 PM »
Trying to get the key step to follow MMC coming from tools, while tools beat step is enabled.

Problem--
When I start tools, the key step (which is set to midi slave mode) sees the MMC signal and attempts to play the keys I am holding down

Your guess that you have a feedback loop is 100% correct. The question now is: What is feeding back?
These may just be mislabeling on your part, but I'll have to ask:

MMC is "MIDI Machine Control" Are you actually attempting to send that to the Keystep to follow? It is not the same thing as MIDI sync.

"while tools beat step is enabled"   What do you mean?

And finally, just so I'm sure I actually understand all of this, you're:

1) Starting PT, wanting it to send "start" and sync out through the Studio 4 to the Keystep
2) Wanting the Keystep arpeggiator to respond and return MIDI notes of the keys you're holding down, in sync, back in through
     the Studio 4, through PT and back out again through the Studio 4 to the Emu or other sound mod.

Off the top of my head, even before going into why you want this, it doesn't seem to make logical sense and doesn't sound like something the Studio 4 and PT (or any other DAW) can or will do.

You've proven that something is looping back through the system and reeking havoc but you don't know what it is.
It might be MIDI Time Code generated by PT along with MMC.
Whatever it is, it's getting back into PT so…PT must be enabling something to affect it that appears at the serial in on the computer.
You need to find out what that is. Again: What do you mean by "while tools beat step is enabled" ?
Thanks for the response,

"1) Starting PT, wanting it to send "start" and sync out through the Studio 4 to the Keystep
2) Wanting the Keystep arpeggiator to respond and return MIDI notes of the keys you're holding down, in sync, back in through
     the Studio 4, through PT and back out again through the Studio 4 to the Emu or other sound mod."

This is correct but in addition, I want to record that aggregation to a midi track in tools. But to do that I need the aggregation to stay in sync with the session. It does this if I disconnect the keystep outgoing midi connection, but that leaves me no way to record the arpegiation to tools, or to be able to monitor what I am doing

Essentially, I want to be able to play along live with the prerecorded tracks, Recording the arpeggiations that I am playing while keeping them in sync.

All I initially was trying to do was enable midi beat clock and use that as a timing source for the keystep, this is in part what is described to do in the tools manual. What that failed I started trying to find the cause of the feed back.

I have gone several different direction in OMS studio setup.
I have messed around Peripherals sync and midi settings.

The loop happens even when there is no midi tracks assigned to the keystep. sync is being sent correctly to the Keystep and received back by tools and subsequently sent back to the keystep.

I disabled midi through and all MMC references on the Keystep. No luck.  :-\

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 03:37:25 PM »
The following is out of the tools 5.1.3 manual

"If MMC is enabled in the Pro Tools Peripherals
> Machine Control dialog, you must
assign a unique ID number in both of the
corresponding MMC ID# fields. If not, an
MMC feedback loop will occur. This can
also happen if you use the default “broadcast
to all” ID number of 127 in both
places. If you are only slaving Pro Tools to a
sequencer by means of MMC, without an
external device requiring MMC from
Pro Tools, disable MMC entirely."

My understanding is this is for syncing tools to an external device rather than syncing the device to tool. Wherefore I disable MMC (at least I think I did).  The feedback loop remains unchanged.

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 09:06:48 PM »
So i tried something different. I plugged the output of the Keystep into my Emulator 4 pressed play and it plays in scync with the music.

However, I get no note throughput to record in tools. When I enable midi through on the Emulator 4 the system locks up.

It can not be this hard, there has to be a simple answer to all this otherwise there would be no point to having the "midi beat clock" other than to drive a synth and only record the analog without the midi.


Offline GaryN

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 11:59:41 PM »
The only relevant info I can find in the PT manual is the brief "MIDI Beat Clock" section on p.485.

Notes:

• Beat Clock sends Start, Stop, Continue and Beat. All the Keystep needs is beat clock and that's all you should be sending.
• Part of the problem here is that you're kinda thinking of the Keystep as an instrument…it's not. PT sees it as another sequencer.
• All you want is the Keystep to track the incoming tempo to trigger the arpeggiator in time with the sequence.
• The different hookup in your last post has exactly the same problem as the previous one.

When you use the DAW (PT) as the master to slave another clocked device (the Keystep) and you want to record the output of it back into PT…
Only, and I mean only note and/or controller data to be recorded should appear back at the PT input. BUT
Some kind of clock / time code / tempo something is making it's way through the Keystep and reappearing back at PT.

 Make certain "MIDI THRU" is OFF in the Keystep Controller software.

Lastly, this is why there's stuff in the manual about using the IAC buss and such. What you're trying to do here sounds really simple in theory but turns out to be crazy complicated in practice. Maybe you should try really simplifying the whole thing. What if you just match tempos in PT and the Keystep? If the arpeggio starts to drift, maybe you can just re-trigger periodically it on the beat or…? You're recording the arpeggiated note-ons so you can always quantize them afterward as tight as you want…?
OR
You can always: Contact Arturia and tell then you're just trying to get the arpeggiator to follow some kind of MIDI sync but something keeps looping thru and crashing everything… You never know, they might actually be helpful.

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 12:34:29 AM »
Thanks ,
I am deep into reading about IAC bus right now to see if there is a remedy in there and yes you are probobly right about Arturia although they will probobly tell me to get with modern times and dump old tools like everyone else does.

I see what you are saying about this being an seq rather than a music source keyboard.

The other thing I am looking at is the KEYSTEP has a sync input via 3.5 mm TRS, that looks to be just analog for connecting to other jeyboards, perhaps there is a way to utilize that? 

I can try the drift method as you suggest recording in segments and then quantizing.

I may end up just printing analog to track from my E4K driven directly by the Keystep synced to tools since that method appears to work.

Thanks again for your help

Offline GaryN

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 10:19:09 AM »
I have one last idea. You can insert a MIDI filter module inline between the Keystep OUT and the Studio 4 IN.
The objective is to allow only NoteOns and NoteOffs to pass and block everything else. That should prevent the problem.
The first thing that I can think of is the MIDI Solutions Event Processor here:  http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm#
This thing will work. It also costs more than the damn Keystep - so I'm not suggesting you buy it.
BUT: Once you know what to look for, you just might be able to find a similar box somewhere for less $$.

Good luck. Let us know how this ends up.

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 01:35:37 PM »
I have one last idea. You can insert a MIDI filter module inline between the Keystep OUT and the Studio 4 IN.
The objective is to allow only NoteOns and NoteOffs to pass and block everything else. That should prevent the problem.
The first thing that I can think of is the MIDI Solutions Event Processor here:  http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm#
This thing will work. It also costs more than the damn Keystep - so I'm not suggesting you buy it.
BUT: Once you know what to look for, you just might be able to find a similar box somewhere for less $$.

Good luck. Let us know how this ends up.

This is a great idea, Thanks for the tip!  ;D

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »
MIDI beat clock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock

I didn't realize that Beat clock is actually a bit different from MTC as it is slaved to tempo

Beat clock Operates at 24ppq and it just so happens that The Keystep app has a sync option for 24PPq, However, this has not solved my problem, but it does give me some ideas as there are several other settings in the app that if configured correctly might lead to a solution. 

Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 11:39:53 AM »
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!

Page 43 of the Opcode Studio4 manual. Shows how to mute the beat clock signal in OMS on the return midi input.

Works great now!!!

 ;D

Offline GaryN

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 01:34:14 PM »
Congrats! So we now know for a fact that it was MIDI clock causing the problem.
I was pretty sure of that after reading in the Keystep manual how the damn thing would echo any clock-type signal at the MIDI in to the MIDI out.
All of that control in the software editor and they left out the ability to prevent that… You should take a minute to drop them a line!

So, you found a way to make the Studio 4 do exactly what I was suggesting you do with an external filter.
What's remarkable to me about that is having used Opcode Vision, StudioVision and a Studio 4 for years and years, I have never once seen those little extra pop-up windows in the OMS Routing panel. Apparently, I never needed them!


Offline RTIInstaller

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Re: Can some one point me to an advanced midi discussion in this forum?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2017, 07:27:17 PM »
Congrats! So we now know for a fact that it was MIDI clock causing the problem.
I was pretty sure of that after reading in the Keystep manual how the damn thing would echo any clock-type signal at the MIDI in to the MIDI out.
All of that control in the software editor and they left out the ability to prevent that… You should take a minute to drop them a line!

So, you found a way to make the Studio 4 do exactly what I was suggesting you do with an external filter.
What's remarkable to me about that is having used Opcode Vision, StudioVision and a Studio 4 for years and years, I have never once seen those little extra pop-up windows in the OMS Routing panel. Apparently, I never needed them!

It is the outer most tick boxes  there is an M at the very end of the row. You want to select the input side row, when you click the little box below the input name another box pops up providing numerous choices that can be muted, it should really say "filtered".

Offline RTIInstaller

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