Author Topic: Certificates in Icab & Classilla  (Read 9404 times)

Offline petermyersaus

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Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« on: February 04, 2016, 09:11:48 PM »
Icab and Classilla waste my time with messages such as

"The Certificate of the Server is not valid" (iCab)

"Unable to verify the identity of [webpage] as a trusted site" (Classilla).

"[browser] does not have the Certificate for [webpage]"

In each case, I have to click a response box. Sometimes there are 2 or 3 such messages for a particular webpage.

Have I got these browsers set up wrongly? But I can't see anything in the Preferences which would cause this.

Any tips?

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 11:08:30 PM »
Regarding Classilla:  https://code.google.com/archive/p/classilla/wikis/AAATheFAQ.wiki

From the above:
*******************************
Does Classilla support TLS or SSL?

Classilla supports TLSv1, SSLv2 and SSLv3. Of the three, TLS is the most preferred and highest level of security, while SSL is an older encryption technology predating TLS. SSLv2 is no longer secure and should no longer be used; it is disabled by default starting in Classilla 9.3.3 and will be removed completely in a future version. SSLv3 is still available but is considered deprecated due to intrinsic flaws in the protocol and will be disabled by default in a future version. In addition, "export-only" low-key-length symmetric ciphers are also considered deprecated and will be disabled by default in a future version.

Classilla does support TLSv1, but versions prior to 9.3.3 did not support certain features which may cause sites to renegotiate SSLv3. In 9.3.3, support for Server Name Indication (SNI) was added, which improves verification of certain secure websites.

Classilla's encryption package does not currently include higher performance elliptic curve support, but does support regular Diffie-Hellman exchange for forward secrecy. For example, DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA is fully supported.

Some secure websites give me an error -8182.

These sites use SHA-256 certificates for TLS. This support was added in Classilla 9.3.3.

Some secure websites give me a dialogue box saying the site could not be verified.

Classilla allows you to override certain checks on certificate identity when you know or trust that the network and site you're connecting to have not been compromised. For example, if the domain name is slightly different, or the certificate is recently expired, you may receive this box but the certificate may still be perfectly safe to accept temporarily. You receive this box if the certificate name differs, the certificate is expired, it is signed by a certificate authority you don't currently accept, or, starting in 9.3.3, if the certificate is signed with an algorithm that Classilla does not yet understand.

With the added support in 9.3.3 and later versions, this situation should be much less common. If it occurs, you should examine the certificate carefully and decide what to do and how long you want the exception to last. There is no good rule of thumb on when this is safe to do, although a site that used to work and suddenly fails to work, especially on a different network, should be considered an indication your connection is not safe. Remember: if you override a certificate check, you are telling Classilla that verification is not required or possible, which may cause you to send information to an unauthorized third party which is masquerading as the trusted site. Be cautious when approving these requests.

**************************************

icab issues are similar.

These are old browsers that seldom get updated to the ever-changing new world. There are many new security protocols in use today that did not even exist when these were current. Some certificate updates are possible, others not so much. The internet is in many ways like a public toilet…there are many nasty things lurking that you shouldn't touch, and some folks are doing their level best to put those things on you.

Bottom line, security alerts from old browsers go with the territory. How many of them you get is directly related to how far off the beaten path you go. If you feel they're "wasting your time", either ignore them or use a more up-to-date system on the net. Personally, I'd recommend the latter.

Offline mrhappy

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2016, 06:26:15 AM »
The internet is in many ways like a public toilet

And don't forget to flush!! ;D ;D ;D

Nice explanation Gary!

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 01:23:22 PM »
We have a problem with the old 9.2.3 version included in Complete DAW Restore with Cubase VST/32 with Pre-Authorized Virtual Instuments & FX.

It can't download 9.3.3 from the sourcecode servers...

Let's see what happens when downloading from our servers.

Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 01:25:30 PM »
Sorry, but I were on a non OS9 machine
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2016, 06:36:55 PM »
Eureka!    Our server is more patronizing than SourceForge. We all should get from this post 9.3.3 to update 9.2.3
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2020, 07:57:21 PM »
But can’t these new methods be added to the browsers we have for OS 9, such as Netscape ?

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2020, 10:01:31 PM »
But can’t these new methods be added to the browsers we have for OS 9, such as Netscape ?
In the real world, no. The biggest problem now is that everything is heavily encrypted. Seriously… you send the digit "5" and it gets turned into NCKE83G6OGM or similar. 32-bit encryption became 64-bit which became 128-bit and on and on. Teaching old browsers to handle this stuff would require enormous amounts of new code inserted into browsers nobody even has the code for anymore. Then, even it you somehow could, anything less then G4 duals would c r a a a w l . That's before you even address the enormous amounts of junk script stuffed into every web page to make sure they can follow you around while you buy all the stuff they shove in your face. Then there's playing catch-up with all the certs…a full-time job in itself. Is that enough? There's still more…

Cameron tried hard with Classilla, he really did but even he had to throw in the towel. TenFourFox is hanging by a thread and it all he can do to keep it from falling too. This is the world we live in.

Offline Bolkonskij

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2020, 12:16:24 AM »
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the situation. Of course it *could* be possible. Look at the Amiga fans who develop their own browser (iBrowse). It'll even work on 68k Amigas - with SSL. (albeit no Javascript yet).

A big BUT - they actually *sell* the browser in order to finance development. That would never work with Mac users. From various MorphOS discussions on Apple groups I get the impression everyone expects someone™ to spend hours coding for free. (that rule applies only to others of course - they themselves always do want to get full pay).

So good luck finding that someone™. Especially since the ones with the skills of coding a browser are sought-after specialists that can make a lot of money. Why would you spend your time coding for people who wouldn't even leave a "thank you"?

Add the fact that the Mac OS community is much much smaller than e.g. the Amigans and you know there's not going to happen much. We still fiddling with our aging original hardware and don't even have a FPGA-based hardware replacement like the Amigans, Atari fans and others already have. That's something I'd love to see done before we're even thinking about a modern browser because our hardware doesn't get any younger.

Apart from the hardware issue, I for one believe that for the forseeable future our hope lies in gateway services. They will do server-side magic (e.g. scraping news pages and delivering the results unencrypted in plain html on a news page that'll work with IE 5.x too.)

I feel that's what we should focus on. Granted, you won't be able to do your Online Banking with OS9 again, but at least you should be able to use certain features again. Like the image uploader at the Mac Garden is a great example.
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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2020, 12:27:07 AM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it. we should be happy with all the years of free support by the project and let go browsing html.
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Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2020, 02:56:04 AM »
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the situation. Of course it *could* be possible. Look at the Amiga fans who develop their own browser (iBrowse). It'll even work on 68k Amigas - with SSL. (albeit no Javascript yet).

A big BUT - they actually *sell* the browser in order to finance development. That would never work with Mac users. From various MorphOS discussions on Apple groups I get the impression everyone expects someone™ to spend hours coding for free. (that rule applies only to others of course - they themselves always do want to get full pay).

So good luck finding that someone™. Especially since the ones with the skills of coding a browser are sought-after specialists that can make a lot of money. Why would you spend your time coding for people who wouldn't even leave a "thank you"?

Add the fact that the Mac OS community is much much smaller than e.g. the Amigans and you know there's not going to happen much. We still fiddling with our aging original hardware and don't even have a FPGA-based hardware replacement like the Amigans, Atari fans and others already have. That's something I'd love to see done before we're even thinking about a modern browser because our hardware doesn't get any younger.

Apart from the hardware issue, I for one believe that for the forseeable future our hope lies in gateway services. They will do server-side magic (e.g. scraping news pages and delivering the results unencrypted in plain html on a news page that'll work with IE 5.x too.)

I feel that's what we should focus on. Granted, you won't be able to do your Online Banking with OS9 again, but at least you should be able to use certain features again. Like the image uploader at the Mac Garden is a great example.

Well, if not internet, can email still work ? I tried to enter my gmail and hotmail settings and outlook express did not work - tried under classila and it didn't work. I really miss the internet of 1999/2000/2001 when things were so simple. OS 9 had no issues with accessing the internet back then. I also notice that even Tiger has issues with websites. Really, Steve could have let development continue with 9 at least till like 2010 or something. It didn't get the life it deserved. Just my opinion of course.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2020, 03:00:58 AM »
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the situation. Of course it *could* be possible. Look at the Amiga fans who develop their own browser (iBrowse). It'll even work on 68k Amigas - with SSL. (albeit no Javascript yet).

A big BUT - they actually *sell* the browser in order to finance development. That would never work with Mac users. From various MorphOS discussions on Apple groups I get the impression everyone expects someone™ to spend hours coding for free. (that rule applies only to others of course - they themselves always do want to get full pay).

So good luck finding that someone™. Especially since the ones with the skills of coding a browser are sought-after specialists that can make a lot of money. Why would you spend your time coding for people who wouldn't even leave a "thank you"?

Add the fact that the Mac OS community is much much smaller than e.g. the Amigans and you know there's not going to happen much. We still fiddling with our aging original hardware and don't even have a FPGA-based hardware replacement like the Amigans, Atari fans and others already have. That's something I'd love to see done before we're even thinking about a modern browser because our hardware doesn't get any younger.

Apart from the hardware issue, I for one believe that for the forseeable future our hope lies in gateway services. They will do server-side magic (e.g. scraping news pages and delivering the results unencrypted in plain html on a news page that'll work with IE 5.x too.)

I feel that's what we should focus on. Granted, you won't be able to do your Online Banking with OS9 again, but at least you should be able to use certain features again. Like the image uploader at the Mac Garden is a great example.

Here is another question - what if Steve did not pull the plug on OS 9 development and at least kept it going till say 2010 ? I think os 9 was pulled too soon. It could have existed alongside Mac OS X. Now, I am having issues trying to get email to work, at least I would be happy to check email through OS 9. Come to think of it, I don't remember checking my bank account on OS 9 back in 2000/2001. I miss those years when the internet was "normal" and not bloated like today. I also contributed to Kaiser for his keeping PowerPC Macs still going. Classila is supposed to get another update I think from what I read on the classila site.

Offline Bolkonskij

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2020, 06:47:02 AM »
1.) Why should Apple have kept Mac OS alive? As much as I'd wish, they wanted everyone to go OSX asap. Further OS9 support would only have been an obstacle towards this goal. Besides, Apple always had this "Slash and burn" attitude towards moving on. From the very beginning. Ask the Apple II folks ...

2.) E-Mail and OS9 work fine for me. Try the Classilla E-Mailer. I use it daily to check my e-mails from gmail (POP). If it doesn't work, check if your gmail settings allow for "unsecure POP connections" or something - assuming you're not trying IMAP. (the settings are to be found within your Gmail account - not the e-mail client)

3.) I LOVE the 2000's web as much as you do. That's why I created my two projects (see signature).

There are a couple of sites like these out there. I totally dig the idea of creating more and building our own Mac OS eco-system. From talking to the Mac Garden folks I know they're working on a redesign that will actually be made with Classilla (and even older browsers) in mind. So there you go! That's the approach we as Mac OS community should be taking. Go ahead and start your own project, Roman323! Everyone can help out ...
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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2020, 09:49:34 PM »
exactly. it is 2020 now and we should focus on what we can do in 2021, and not what somebody else might have done wrong in 2001.

in theory, the 7447a can run at up to 2,4 GHz. any takers?
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Offline Knezzen

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2020, 01:59:47 AM »
2.) E-Mail and OS9 work fine for me. Try the Classilla E-Mailer. I use it daily to check my e-mails from gmail (POP). If it doesn't work, check if your gmail settings allow for "unsecure POP connections" or something - assuming you're not trying IMAP. (the settings are to be found within your Gmail account - not the e-mail client)

Just wanted to chime in that IMAP in Classilla with Gmail works just fine. It's what I have used with it for the last 10 years or so.
Still worked fine when I checked my mail using the TiBook this morning :P

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2020, 09:14:19 PM »
But can’t these new methods be added to the browsers we have for OS 9, such as Netscape ?
In the real world, no. The biggest problem now is that everything is heavily encrypted. Seriously… you send the digit "5" and it gets turned into NCKE83G6OGM or similar. 32-bit encryption became 64-bit which became 128-bit and on and on. Teaching old browsers to handle this stuff would require enormous amounts of new code inserted into browsers nobody even has the code for anymore. Then, even it you somehow could, anything less then G4 duals would c r a a a w l . That's before you even address the enormous amounts of junk script stuffed into every web page to make sure they can follow you around while you buy all the stuff they shove in your face. Then there's playing catch-up with all the certs…a full-time job in itself. Is that enough? There's still more…

Cameron tried hard with Classilla, he really did but even he had to throw in the towel. TenFourFox is hanging by a thread and it all he can do to keep it from falling too. This is the world we live in.

Well, I think the world should go back to 2000 web browsing.. There is no need for bloatness in the internet at all. Even my Mac Pro 2010 is SLOWWWWWWWWWW rendering lots of bloat out there. I spoke directly with Cameron and he hasn't abandoned Classila, just that it is taking a little longer than need be. Meanwhile, I am seeing others on youtube using classila and accessing sites like www.wikipedia.org with no issues. So, there is something going on. And I refuse to accept that its done because windows 98 and 2000 can still browse the modern web.. it just shows Apple lost, windows won. And I refuse to accept that.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2020, 09:18:55 PM »
2.) E-Mail and OS9 work fine for me. Try the Classilla E-Mailer. I use it daily to check my e-mails from gmail (POP). If it doesn't work, check if your gmail settings allow for "unsecure POP connections" or something - assuming you're not trying IMAP. (the settings are to be found within your Gmail account - not the e-mail client)

Just wanted to chime in that IMAP in Classilla with Gmail works just fine. It's what I have used with it for the last 10 years or so.
Still worked fine when I checked my mail using the TiBook this morning :P

So, why won't outlook express 5 work ? For some reason its not working - gmail uses imap and I created a new email account with NO SECURITY and it still won't work. I tell it to goto 993 port imap.gmail.com - incoming, SSL and Encrypt Password. smtp settings: port 587 smtp.gmail.com and still its not working. Yes, It works on Cameron's Classila, however it won't work under outlook express 5 or Mulberry, or even Netscape's email client.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2020, 12:14:25 AM »
Well, I think the world should go back to 2000 web browsing.. There is no need for bloatness in the internet at all. Even my Mac Pro 2010 is SLOWWWWWWWWWW rendering lots of bloat out there. I spoke directly with Cameron and he hasn't abandoned Classila, just that it is taking a little longer than need be. Meanwhile, I am seeing others on youtube using classila and accessing sites like www.wikipedia.org with no issues. So, there is something going on. And I refuse to accept that its done because windows 98 and 2000 can still browse the modern web.. it just shows Apple lost, windows won. And I refuse to accept that.
Jeez man, give it a rest already.

"Well, I think the world should go back to 2000 web browsing."
  Yeah…and I think we ought to go back to micro-mini skirts and hot pants but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that either.

"There is no need for bloatness in the internet at all."

  …because everything should be free, right? Face it: Ads suck but they existed before you or I were born, they took up entire pages in magazines and they'll continue as long as THEY are what pays for all of that "free" content.

"I spoke directly with Cameron and he hasn't abandoned Classila,"
  No, not abandoned… not officially. But as much of a fucking genius as he is, he's still human. He has a life and a wife. There is NO, repeat, NO practical way to bring Classilla into the 21st century without rewriting so much of it it might as well be a completely new browser. Find a lottery winner or the son of an oil sheik to pay for a development team to write and maintain a browser for a niche market of "obsolete" computer nerds (that's us) and I'm certain he'll be happy to assist.

"And I refuse to accept that its done because windows 98 and 2000 can still browse the modern web"
  Anybody who connects a Win 98 computer to the internet deserves all they get - and they WILL get much more than they want.

"it just shows Apple lost, windows won."
  No, Apple deprecated a seriously flawed (lovable, but flawed) operating system in favor of a more modern framework that could continue to evolve.
Maybe you've heard of it… it's called OSX. It works really, really well.

Look dude, I fucking LOVE OS9. I LOVE running my studio on "obsolete" hardware with "obsolete" software that somehow outputs a quality product you can't distinguish from the latest and greatest sixty-kinds-of-VST-compressors across 140 tracks DAWs. BUT…

I browse the damn internet with Firefox and Safari under Mojave.


Just because you CAN get on the freeway with your Model T doesn't mean you SHOULD.
You cannot keep up and you cannot expect everyone else to slow down to YOUR speed for YOUR convenience.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2020, 02:44:45 PM »
Oh good news to report. i found a developer who goes by Witnicks I think on macrumors who can redesign and place the modern security protocols and TLS's into classila, however he told me he does not have any experience with OS 9, but if he can get it to work under 10.0-10.3.9 then it really doesn't matter, since classila under 9 will still work even though the security updates were added in OS X. Classila is backward compatible with earlier versions of OS X, minus Tiger of course.

Stay tuned..

Offline Mat

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2020, 05:02:33 PM »
Jeez man, give it a rest already.
I have to step in and assist Roman323 a little bit! ;)
To argue agains the development the society and the IT business is doing is always of value. It reminds us that a lot of things are going wrong. The need of all the ads is not useful for us, as well as 90% of the stuff modern OSs are doing in the background, are of no value for us users, and do not improve our tools, that our computers always should be.

a seriously flawed (lovable, but flawed) operating system
Thats bullshit. Yes, 9 has some issues, but Unix is nothing that people at single workplaces need at all. Remember, it was Apple who needed some of the functionality of X (and those in cheapest possible ways, and in cooperation with Steve and usage of his Next), not the users. And those who can use Unix are fine with other Unix OS' as well. There was no need to go this direction, and no "flaw" of Mac OS 9 at all. And do not come along with the "missing memory protection", …

it's called OSX. It works really, really well.
No it does not, but you do not recognize it anymore. If you are still using 9 on a daily basis, as I do, you can see how useless most of Xs stuff is! I have two new experiances that again confirmed my last decades experiance with X.

1.) I have now sometimes to work at a G5 4x 2,5 with 16 GB Ram. And this machine is so damn slow with most stuff!. I could improve the experiance a lot in downgrading to 10.4, kicking spotlight and a bunch of other useless programs, but still I have to wait 5 times more than at a well installed 9 machine at 1 GHz. That means this machine feels 50 times slower than it should with 9! Why the hell do I have to wait 10 seconds until a file openes? Why do I have to watch a bouncing ball, when I paste 1 line of text? Why the hell are most concepts focused on presentation instead of workflow? No, X is a still a pain, and impudence. I still do not get why anybody ever accepted it and started to use it. The only cause why most people do not feel like this today, is that the hardware provides in the meantime nealy endless computing power for wasting.

2.) I had my first experiance with X 10.14, and beside the fact that its GUI is crap, its possibilities are only used by software that is bossing around the users. Program X needs internet access for updating, before you can close it. Program y likes to get access to some hardware, Program z needs veryfication as you are at the wrong place, … and so on. It was just a pain.

I browse the damn internet with Firefox and Safari under Mojave.
There is no cause why webbrowsing should not work perfectly at any 9 machine. It is just a cause of good programming. When I see what my MDD can do at (the still quite slow) LinuxMint PPC, there is no argument why it should not work with the much faster 9 as well. Especially if we would exclude all the ads in a wise way.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2020, 06:31:37 PM »
Maybe I'm just getting old… Maybe I'm getting cranky too… but when I get people taking issue with facts and they don't know WTF they're talking about, all I can think is:

Why oh why do I f***king bother?


I really do NOT know. This is the very last thing I'll say on this subject.

1) There's nothing wrong with lamenting the degeneration of society. There are plenty of places to do that. This isn't one of them.
    I simply tried to explain the reality of why it's so damn hard to magically update 25-year-old code to deal with the clusterf**k that is the internet.

2) OS9 is, repeat, IS flawed. Your entire response to that clearly shows you have no, repeat, NO idea how stuff works or how or why Apple did what they did. You should read a book or two. There are many reasons for migrating from the old OS to OSX, not the least of which was IBM's  intransigence at getting the PPC architecture to keep up with Intel. OR the lack of multitasking, which also include the lack of protected memory. Really, HTF can you expect a modern computer, which MUST do many different things for many different people, to succeed without multitasking? It's just one more example of how you don't have a clue how the world works outside of your bedroom.

The fact that apps exist that run under OS9 and work well for certain, specific things that make it still usable and productive today is a different thing entirely from being an OS capable of evolving with and handling what the public believes it should. Whether you (or I) like it or not, the whole OSX / iOS enchilada is designed to please the public in order to get them to buy it. Otherwise, we're all sucking Windoze.

3) OSX actually does work really, really well. I have used every single iteration of the Mac OS from System 6 up to 10.14. There were issues with permissions and unexplained kernel panics in the beginning, all of which have been cured. I run all kinds of software from browsers to audio editors to graphics design to databases…Hell I even read my own MRI's without any bullshit problems with OSX and I haven't had any since Snow Leopard. OS9, OTOH, will take a shit occasionally if pushed too hard. I live with it because over time I've learned what NOT to do to provoke it and if I accidentally do, I can tolerate an occasional restart
BTW… I DO use OS9 daily. I also use Leopard daily. I also use Mojave daily (right now in fact) Yes, that's right… I am blasphemously using 10.14 to post on OS9Lives!… I'll surely burn in Hell for that.

* Your description of a quad G5 being "damn slow" with "ten second file openings" is screaming at you that something is seriously f**ked up and you're not hearing it. I won't begin to list the possible causes but the fact that you don't realize that's going on tells me that despite your alleged extensive experience with OSX and Macs in general, you haven't learned enough to be using vintage hardware and software that has no user support. It is in fact the very reason Apple twists themselves into knots trying to make the Mac usable by dummies, grandmothers and other "regular' folk.

** The 10.14 GUI is hardly any different AT ALL from the previous iterations of OSX. Your "program X, Y, and Z" complaint appears to be with 3rd-party software… NOT Apple.

Finally, there are a hundred reasons why webrowsing won't "work perfectly on any OS9 machine".
I can't believe you actually typed that!
If it was so easy to make it work, Cameron or others would have by now, if only to quiet all the whiners.

Last but not least:

Your guy "Witnicks" is going to find out, as are YOU, that Classilla is NOT, repeat NOT compatible with and will never, ever run under OSX…period! Your belief that it does is just another example of what you don't know. Running under Classic does NOT count. Nonetheless, you actually think that a guy who has no, zero, nada experience with OS9 and thinks security updates were added in OSX is the guy to magically fix everything.
Good luck with that.

Class dismissed. I fuckin' give up.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2020, 08:17:20 PM »
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the situation. Of course it *could* be possible. Look at the Amiga fans who develop their own browser (iBrowse). It'll even work on 68k Amigas - with SSL. (albeit no Javascript yet).

A big BUT - they actually *sell* the browser in order to finance development. That would never work with Mac users. From various MorphOS discussions on Apple groups I get the impression everyone expects someone™ to spend hours coding for free. (that rule applies only to others of course - they themselves always do want to get full pay).

So good luck finding that someone™. Especially since the ones with the skills of coding a browser are sought-after specialists that can make a lot of money. Why would you spend your time coding for people who wouldn't even leave a "thank you"?

Add the fact that the Mac OS community is much much smaller than e.g. the Amigans and you know there's not going to happen much. We still fiddling with our aging original hardware and don't even have a FPGA-based hardware replacement like the Amigans, Atari fans and others already have. That's something I'd love to see done before we're even thinking about a modern browser because our hardware doesn't get any younger.

Apart from the hardware issue, I for one believe that for the forseeable future our hope lies in gateway services. They will do server-side magic (e.g. scraping news pages and delivering the results unencrypted in plain html on a news page that'll work with IE 5.x too.)

I feel that's what we should focus on. Granted, you won't be able to do your Online Banking with OS9 again, but at least you should be able to use certain features again. Like the image uploader at the Mac Garden is a great example.

Exactly, I just found this on youtube a guy running Windows 2000 with an old IE browser and he was able to browse the web with the help of a tool which is described in the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165zBELlHWw

I did not mean to upset Gary. I guess my nostalgia is getting to me due to being home from work because of the coronavirus, however I just want to relive the 2000s as it was a great time for computers then.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2020, 08:19:42 PM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it. we should be happy with all the years of free support by the project and let go browsing html.

Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165zBELlHWw - This is someone running windows 2000 and the IE browser at the time with the help of an app which allows old browsers to browse the web. I would gladly pay any developer for making something like this to run on Mac OS.. But, due to Gary trying to make me understand, I will just put that idea away.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2020, 08:31:48 PM »
exactly. it is 2020 now and we should focus on what we can do in 2021, and not what somebody else might have done wrong in 2001.

in theory, the 7447a can run at up to 2,4 GHz. any takers?

That would be a 7448 which runs already at 2ghz, but I believe the 7447a/b could run at 2.4 ghz. Someone on macrumors in the PowerPC forums is trying to get even a G4 to recognize 4GB of memory which theoretically it can, but Apple decided to limit the amount of memory in the memory controller. If successful, I may unsolder the 7447a in my G4 PB 1.67 DLSD and solder in the 7448. The other good news is Snow Leopard 10.6 has been fixed to run on PowerPC hardware - obviously, PowerPC code can be found in the developer versions of snow leopard. A good find and once the bugs are out of it, I may try to install it on my PB.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2020, 08:57:41 PM »
Maybe I'm just getting old… Maybe I'm getting cranky too… but when I get people taking issue with facts and they don't know WTF they're talking about, all I can think is:

Why oh why do I f***king bother?


I really do NOT know. This is the very last thing I'll say on this subject.

1) There's nothing wrong with lamenting the degeneration of society. There are plenty of places to do that. This isn't one of them.
    I simply tried to explain the reality of why it's so damn hard to magically update 25-year-old code to deal with the clusterf**k that is the internet.

2) OS9 is, repeat, IS flawed. Your entire response to that clearly shows you have no, repeat, NO idea how stuff works or how or why Apple did what they did. You should read a book or two. There are many reasons for migrating from the old OS to OSX, not the least of which was IBM's  intransigence at getting the PPC architecture to keep up with Intel. OR the lack of multitasking, which also include the lack of protected memory. Really, HTF can you expect a modern computer, which MUST do many different things for many different people, to succeed without multitasking? It's just one more example of how you don't have a clue how the world works outside of your bedroom.

The fact that apps exist that run under OS9 and work well for certain, specific things that make it still usable and productive today is a different thing entirely from being an OS capable of evolving with and handling what the public believes it should. Whether you (or I) like it or not, the whole OSX / iOS enchilada is designed to please the public in order to get them to buy it. Otherwise, we're all sucking Windoze.

3) OSX actually does work really, really well. I have used every single iteration of the Mac OS from System 6 up to 10.14. There were issues with permissions and unexplained kernel panics in the beginning, all of which have been cured. I run all kinds of software from browsers to audio editors to graphics design to databases…Hell I even read my own MRI's without any bullshit problems with OSX and I haven't had any since Snow Leopard. OS9, OTOH, will take a shit occasionally if pushed too hard. I live with it because over time I've learned what NOT to do to provoke it and if I accidentally do, I can tolerate an occasional restart
BTW… I DO use OS9 daily. I also use Leopard daily. I also use Mojave daily (right now in fact) Yes, that's right… I am blasphemously using 10.14 to post on OS9Lives!… I'll surely burn in Hell for that.

* Your description of a quad G5 being "damn slow" with "ten second file openings" is screaming at you that something is seriously f**ked up and you're not hearing it. I won't begin to list the possible causes but the fact that you don't realize that's going on tells me that despite your alleged extensive experience with OSX and Macs in general, you haven't learned enough to be using vintage hardware and software that has no user support. It is in fact the very reason Apple twists themselves into knots trying to make the Mac usable by dummies, grandmothers and other "regular' folk.

** The 10.14 GUI is hardly any different AT ALL from the previous iterations of OSX. Your "program X, Y, and Z" complaint appears to be with 3rd-party software… NOT Apple.

Finally, there are a hundred reasons why webrowsing won't "work perfectly on any OS9 machine".
I can't believe you actually typed that!
If it was so easy to make it work, Cameron or others would have by now, if only to quiet all the whiners.

Last but not least:

Your guy "Witnicks" is going to find out, as are YOU, that Classilla is NOT, repeat NOT compatible with and will never, ever run under OSX…period! Your belief that it does is just another example of what you don't know. Running under Classic does NOT count. Nonetheless, you actually think that a guy who has no, zero, nada experience with OS9 and thinks security updates were added in OSX is the guy to magically fix everything.
Good luck with that.

Class dismissed. I fuckin' give up.

Gary,

Please don't be angry with me. I am just trying to relive a time when I got out of PC repair at CompUSA(I was a tech at CompUSA) at the time when I got my 1st Mac. I don't claim to know everything about Macs, but what I do know is I love OS 9 and enjoy what it can do. Surely, there are times when OS 9 will get angry because I "pushed" it too far, but its the OS I grew up with in terms of Mac knowledge. My G4 350 was a sawtooth and not yikes - There, I know something and while the Yikes G4 was cheaper at the time, I got the 350 mhz Sawtooth model along with OS 9 retail in the box which sadly I no longer have. Financial difficulties and going through a battle with my ex-wife at the time caused a lot of issues for me and I had to sell off my stuff back in 2001. But, throughout the years I have owned a G4 Digital Audio to a G4 MDD(non-fw800). I remember just about 11 years ago when I had that machine and it booted right into OS 9. Had I have known at the time OS 9 was still functional I would have used it, but I was so much more into Leopard. Btw, the best iteration of OS X is my opinion is: Snow Leopard - anything after that is like a toy. Apple deprecated themselves after Snow Leopard and only now I am reading that Catalina is causing issues bricking mac systems because Apple can't get program an update to work properly.

Again, I am deeply sorry I "offended" you, though I don't recall doing so. You also have to forgive me as my English isn't perfect. I was born in Ukraine and a lot of complex words I don't really understand. However, when I saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165zBELlHWw -> A guy running IE(I hate windows like you) on windows 2000 to browse the modern web gave me ideas that its not entirely possible to get OS 9 to browse the web. I owe you an apology and it was my fault - I meant to state that for 10.0-10.3.9 Classila will run under CLASSIC mode, and not natively. I owe you an apology there and yes, I have this person checking it out anyway because he knows several developers on Macrumors who is very much into OS 9 - more so than Cameron and or myself who wants to take apart Classila and try to see what can be done.

Finally, I defend Mat's statements, except for my purposes I use OS 9 clearly for - email, Office 2001, basic video editing and rendering, and I am getting more practice with photoshop. I also am a retro gamer and play retro games, such as Bugdom, Nanosaur, to name a few.

I want to be your friend. I am sorry if I upset you.

Roman Melnychuk

So, you see my name is Ukrainian  :)

Offline Mat

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2020, 09:08:10 PM »
I really do not understand why you are becoming that personal immediatly. Perhaps it is as you are more beliving Apples propaganda than you thought?

Well, on the one hand you are talking about grannys for whom macs are made, on the other hand you are explaining that a usual mac has to act as a server with all the background tasks. That does not fit together. But, I think it is the main problem we are facing. Are we talking about an Operating System for single workplaces, or are we talking about a system for some real necessary services to other machines, or even clustering and such stuff?

My analysis is, that Apple did a huge mistake in choosing a Unix, that has several disadvantages for single workplaces. Also I belive that Steve wanted to use his own Next mainly because of bossiness, as he never liked Mac OS, and that he forgot about the users by doing so. Otherwise we would never had the situation that Apple created all this artificial incompatibilities. All the lies that X cannot boot on older Macs, or that newer Macs cannot boot 9 and all that crap. They simply knew that they had to force people using X as it was crap for workplaces.
As you said yourselve "is designed to please the public in order to get them to buy it" and that is all they are doing. They shifted from real tools to marketing stuff that is mainly useless for the real work. If you are really convinced that the OS provides anything that you really need for your daily work (not the programs of course), please go ahead and tell us!

So while a Unix for sure makes sense for several cases, it makes no sense at all at desktops. And as I said already, those who really need Unix, are already served with Debian, BSDs and others, they do not need any X.

Maybe I'm just getting old… Maybe I'm getting cranky too… but when I get people taking issue with facts and they don't know WTF they're talking about,
I would't be sure that I do not know what I am talking about. I would also consider that I have a complete different analysis because of good reasons, and that I have other needs perhaps and such possibilities.

1) There's nothing wrong with lamenting the degeneration of society. There are plenty of places to do that. This isn't one of them.
Why do you think so? IT technology is an integral part of our lives in the meantime. It is affecting every part of the society (what most people out there do not get). Belive it or not, one of the reasons that I never started using X was that I didn't like the possibilities of controlling and tracing and surveillance in general, and that I saw that it is going in this direction. iOS surveillance, UEFIS, "trusted chips" and all that ugly stuff proved me right.

    I simply tried to explain the reality of why it's so damn hard to magically update 25-year-old code to deal with the clusterf**k that is the internet.
No, it is not hard, it is just a matter of manpower. Creating/porting any webbrowser to Mac OS 9 is the same effort than done for every other OS. It is just a question of "who likes to put how much work into it". And sadly the awareness for niche systems is very low. Not at least because of people like you who accept everything, and funnily enough talk for mainstream Operating Systmes in niche systems forums. I am quite sure that a team of 5 to 10 motivated people can keep up and maintain a perfect webbrowser for Mac OS 9 in their spare time.

2) OS9 is, repeat, IS flawed.
If you really think so, tell us where, aside the marketing speech of Apple.

Your entire response to that clearly shows you have no, repeat, NO idea how stuff works or how or why Apple did what they did. You should read a book or two.
Perhaps I did already.

There are many reasons for migrating from the old OS to OSX, not the least of which was IBM's  intransigence at getting the PPC architecture to keep up with Intel.
I'd say that a Power 9 is one of the best CPUs you can get recently for your money. Yes the PPC 7448 was late.
But in general we are talking about concern politics of IBM, Freescale and Apple. Remember, at the time Apple switched to Intel, Microsoft built PPCs into the brand new XBox 360, …

OR the lack of multitasking, which also include the lack of protected memory. Really, HTF can you expect a modern computer, which MUST do many different things for many different people, to succeed without multitasking? It's just one more example of how you don't have a clue how the world works outside of your bedroom.
I asked you to not come along with memory protection. Really your memories are blurred. I could do the following on a rock solid 6100 in 1999 at the same time. Using Deck II playing 8 tracks plus a video for synchronising, downloading FTP stuff, scanning a huge picture, while Photoshop computed a file that was 5 times bigger than the RAM was. So no, cooperative multitasking is NOT no multitasking. In fact it even has several advantages in some fields over preemptive multitasking. The fact that Apple liked to gain more control over programs that are running at Macs is something different.

The fact that apps exist that run under OS9 and work well for certain, specific things that make it still usable and productive today is a different thing entirely from being an OS capable of evolving with and handling what the public believes it should. Whether you (or I) like it or not, the whole OSX / iOS enchilada is designed to please the public in order to get them to buy it. Otherwise, we're all sucking Windoze.
As said above, you are right here. It is all about marketing, planned obsolescence and shareholder value. The bad news is we are sucking Windows and Unix. All other good ideas are extreme niches (like Haiku, Mac OS 9, …)

3) OSX actually does work really, really well. I have used every single iteration of the Mac OS from System 6 up to 10.14. There were issues with permissions and unexplained kernel panics in the beginning, all of which have been cured. I run all kinds of software from browsers to audio editors to graphics design to databases…Hell I even read my own MRI's without any bullshit problems with OSX and I haven't had any since Snow Leopard. OS9, OTOH, will take a shit occasionally if pushed too hard. I live with it because over time I've learned what NOT to do to provoke it and if I accidentally do, I can tolerate an occasional restart
BTW… I DO use OS9 daily. I also use Leopard daily.
I suspect that problems with 9 depend on the machines you are using. I had extremely stable machines, especially under 8.6, and starting with the colourful machines, some are really unstable. But I can tell the same from X machines. I had more frustrating adventures with X than with 9. Hanging computers, crashing programs, crashing finder, crashing complete OS, and so on.

I also use Mojave daily (right now in fact) Yes, that's right… I am blasphemously using 10.14 to post on OS9Lives!… I'll surely burn in Hell for that.
Come on, …

* Your description of a quad G5 being "damn slow" with "ten second file openings" is screaming at you that something is seriously f**ked up and you're not hearing it. I won't begin to list the possible causes but the fact that you don't realize that's going on tells me that despite your alleged extensive experience with OSX and Macs in general, you haven't learned enough to be using vintage hardware and software that has no user support.
Well, I do not know what computers you are using, but it is always the same, that X (I used up to 10.5.8 ) are always damn slow, compared to Mac OS 9. And this doesn't change at brand new fresh installations, at well working discs at different computers. So you have to be wrong in this case, Mac OS X 10.4. and even more 10.5 are ectremely slow compared to  Mac OS 9 (10.0 to 10.3 I consider as kind of public BETAs and as impudence).

It is in fact the very reason Apple twists themselves into knots trying to make the Mac usable by dummies, grandmothers and other "regular' folk.
It is exactly that behavior that made me staying at 9 since the first 10.0 installation try (it took the G3 23 (!) hours). We users recognize the problems, and wise men tell us that we are the problems. It may be that you are really convinced, that there are problems at that G5 I am using, but there are not, it is the freshly installed OS X that is sedate and crazy, but Apple must have know it all the time!

** The 10.14 GUI is hardly any different AT ALL from the previous iterations of OSX. Your "program X, Y, and Z" complaint appears to be with 3rd-party software… NOT Apple.
Yes, I just wanted to make clear, that what the OS provides is not a benefit for us, but a benefit for companys who like to boss us around.

Finally, there are a hundred reasons why webrowsing won't "work perfectly on any OS9 machine".
I can't believe you actually typed that!
Tell me a singel one! You cannot – none, that is connected to the OS. As I said, my MDD is fine with MintPPC and browsing the web perfectly, so why not with  Mac OS 9, the hardware can do it as prooven.

If it was so easy to make it work, Cameron or others would have by now, if only to quiet all the whiners.
I never said it is easy (did anybody so?). I just said there are no issues of the OS why it cannot be done, and the effort will be like at any other OS.
It is just that Cameron is alone, …

Your guy "Witnicks" is going to find out, as are YOU,
Now it is getting bizarre, maybe you confused me with Roman323?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 09:44:44 PM by Mat »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2020, 11:43:42 PM »
Mat and Roman,

Sorry Mat. I DID mix up that last one about Witnicks.
I am not "offended" in any way. I am just fed up with so many wishing Classilla would just work on their OS9 whatevers then completely ignoring reality and the rest of the world certain it's no big deal to make that happen and if they just wish hard enough and click their mice together……

Mat, your insight into Steve Jobs' mind is nothing short of astounding. It's like you were in there with him. Seriously?
That OSX won't "do" OS9 and OS 9 won't "do" OSX are all lies? OHMIGOD!! Somebody call Woz and tell him!
Apple "forced" me to use OSX and I didn't even realize it! OMIGOD!! Somebody call Bill Gates and tell him we're all sorry!
It's becoming more and more clear that you and I simply live on different planets. Yours is not limited by the framework or constraints and failings of human society and I live on Earth. I accept reality and you make up whatever "facts" you like to fit your view of the world. If that sounds personal, it's because it IS.

I can see no way to have a fact-based reasonable debate with you.

I hereby suggest that all of those who believe that Classilla can and should be made to magically handle the modern web to put their money where their mouths are and put together a team to accomplish it. I will happily lead the applause and bring the champagne if it happens.
Your first objective will be to find people who actually remember how to write in C. Good luck with that.
Your second will be to find people who can construct 256-bit encrypt/decrypt for TLS 1.2 (maybe TLS 1.3 by the time it's done, then they start all over again) and make it run on 1-2GHz CPUs without taking long enough to watch grass grow in the process.
Your third will be to find a way to compile and authenticate all of the certs AND maintain them as they change constantly.
You can then figure out how to distribute it without making it an open target for the 6 million or so bad actors out there who will be dying to exploit it for fun and profit. Good luck with THAT.

All of THAT is IF you can get everybody in the IETF to stop laughing at you long enough to actually certify your "new" Classilla.
In all the years we've been here simply wishing for an OS 9.2.3, the closest we've come is Cliff's handle and his endless Applescripts.

The web is a moving target and it moves FAST. You DO know (of course you do) that it won't be long before Apple chucks Intel completely and starts installing their own ARM CPUs don't you? 10 or 15 years from now, you'll be whining about the good old days of 64-bit OSX when there was an "app" called Safari that accessed something called the WorldWideWeb and it MUST be another Tim Cook conspiracy why your iTooth won't run it.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2020, 01:25:52 AM »
If it makes you happy, I do use Classila for email and also OS 9 as a file server from it to my mac pro to dump more software I miss. In addition, I have an Epson Stylus 600 and I do word processing and office stuff using Office 2001 - Now that can be done  :D

One more thing. Sherlock 2 and Quicktime.. with Quicktime when I load it I see nothing, no channels at all - is this editable ? In other words, if I can edit a file to include the plugins hosted from my computer, will it then work ? It just says Quicktime can't access the internet, but I am hooked up via ethernet. As for Sherlock 2 - I am surprised ebay plugin did not work - can these be modded to work ? I kinda like Sherlock 2.

Mat and I will discuss more about OS 9 and internet. Tiger at least works fine.

Online IIO

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2020, 04:35:06 AM »
I would gladly pay any developer for making something like this to run on Mac OS.. But, due to Gary trying to make me understand, I will just put that idea away.

if there is something which should not stop you from having a personal opinion and communicating it, then it is other members who start playing forum police here.

however, i can understand gary´s reaction to a certain extent, because your request to bring OS9 forward to work with modern web technology is not only a bit unusual, you are also very inconsequent about the idea.

i probably share your opinion on advertising, tracking, on capitalism in general and on websites where you have to download 240 files from 221 different urls with a total size of 16 mb in order to be able to receive 2 lines of text with the information you were originally looking to.

and i also think that it never was a good idea to put mpeg into a flash container and then put the flash container into html 5 and then put it all into a forced autostart mode so that noone can open 4 tabs at the same time without his computer freezing and shit like that.

but if you dont like that stuff, then why do you want it to work in MacOS9?

isnt the "facebook incompatibilty" one of the best features of MacOS9? so that you can concentrate on your work?

« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 04:53:41 AM by IIO »
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Offline Mat

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2020, 05:56:24 AM »
That OSX won't "do" OS9 and OS 9 won't "do" OSX are all lies? OHMIGOD!! Somebody call Woz and tell him!
What are you talking about? Usually I have high respect to you.
Wasn't it Apple who told us X cannot be used at "older" Macs because of technical issues and had to be prooven wrong by XPostFacto? And wasn't it Apple who told us 9 cannot boot on later G4s as it is technically impossible, …

isnt the "facebook incompatibilty" one of the best features of MacOS9? so that you can concentrate on your work?
For me, indeed, I never used FB in my live! ;)

Online teroyk

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2020, 11:13:32 AM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it.

I found real point for use Classilla.
G Takeout-tool ask your Android or iPhone phonenumber with another browser, but not with Classilla(!).
And I think Classilla can really fool G that you use browsing with another phone and cannot spy you  8)

(EDIT: But download button doesn't work yet, so update needed for Classilla!)
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2020, 03:45:13 PM »
Mat and Roman,

Sorry Mat. I DID mix up that last one about Witnicks.
I am not "offended" in any way. I am just fed up with so many wishing Classilla would just work on their OS9 whatevers then completely ignoring reality and the rest of the world certain it's no big deal to make that happen and if they just wish hard enough and click their mice together……

Mat, your insight into Steve Jobs' mind is nothing short of astounding. It's like you were in there with him. Seriously?
That OSX won't "do" OS9 and OS 9 won't "do" OSX are all lies? OHMIGOD!! Somebody call Woz and tell him!
Apple "forced" me to use OSX and I didn't even realize it! OMIGOD!! Somebody call Bill Gates and tell him we're all sorry!
It's becoming more and more clear that you and I simply live on different planets. Yours is not limited by the framework or constraints and failings of human society and I live on Earth. I accept reality and you make up whatever "facts" you like to fit your view of the world. If that sounds personal, it's because it IS.

I can see no way to have a fact-based reasonable debate with you.

I hereby suggest that all of those who believe that Classilla can and should be made to magically handle the modern web to put their money where their mouths are and put together a team to accomplish it. I will happily lead the applause and bring the champagne if it happens.
Your first objective will be to find people who actually remember how to write in C. Good luck with that.
Your second will be to find people who can construct 256-bit encrypt/decrypt for TLS 1.2 (maybe TLS 1.3 by the time it's done, then they start all over again) and make it run on 1-2GHz CPUs without taking long enough to watch grass grow in the process.
Your third will be to find a way to compile and authenticate all of the certs AND maintain them as they change constantly.
You can then figure out how to distribute it without making it an open target for the 6 million or so bad actors out there who will be dying to exploit it for fun and profit. Good luck with THAT.

All of THAT is IF you can get everybody in the IETF to stop laughing at you long enough to actually certify your "new" Classilla.
In all the years we've been here simply wishing for an OS 9.2.3, the closest we've come is Cliff's handle and his endless Applescripts.

The web is a moving target and it moves FAST. You DO know (of course you do) that it won't be long before Apple chucks Intel completely and starts installing their own ARM CPUs don't you? 10 or 15 years from now, you'll be whining about the good old days of 64-bit OSX when there was an "app" called Safari that accessed something called the WorldWideWeb and it MUST be another Tim Cook conspiracy why your iTooth won't run it.

I want to add one thing: ARM is a great thing and this will be in revenge against Intel. PowerPC's legacy will live on that retribution is complete once ARM becomes a reality on the MAC. This I look forward to. My last intel mac will be the 2015 MacBook Pro which I currently have now. I am looking forward to ARM when finally intel will be defeated once and for all as PPC should have done back in the early days - which it did, until the G5 failure.

Here's to a new PowerPC era in the spirit of ARM :)

Offline Roman323

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2020, 03:47:05 PM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it.

I found real point for use Classilla.
G Takeout-tool ask your Android or iPhone phonenumber with another browser, but not with Classilla(!).
And I think Classilla can really fool G that you use browsing with another phone and cannot spy you  8)

(EDIT: But download button doesn't work yet, so update needed for Classilla!)

Explain how to do this.

Online teroyk

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2020, 04:30:24 AM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it.

I found real point for use Classilla.
G Takeout-tool ask your Android or iPhone phonenumber with another browser, but not with Classilla(!).
And I think Classilla can really fool G that you use browsing with another phone and cannot spy you  8)

(EDIT: But download button doesn't work yet, so update needed for Classilla!)

Explain how to do this.

Actually it is long story, but in short: You have to login to gmail first there you get way to Takeout tool.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline Bob

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2020, 12:42:59 PM »
3) OSX actually does work really, really well. I have used every single iteration of the Mac OS from System 6 up to 10.14. There were issues with permissions and unexplained kernel panics in the beginning, all of which have been cured. I run all kinds of software from browsers to audio editors to graphics design to databases…Hell I even read my own MRI's without any bullshit problems with OSX and I haven't had any since Snow Leopard. OS9, OTOH, will take a shit occasionally if pushed too hard. I live with it because over time I've learned what NOT to do to provoke it and if I accidentally do, I can tolerate an occasional restart
BTW… I DO use OS9 daily. I also use Leopard daily. I also use Mojave daily (right now in fact) Yes, that's right… I am blasphemously using 10.14 to post on OS9Lives!… I'll surely burn in Hell for that.
I have no idea where my problem lies. I have a Mac G4 and it has 12 GIGABYTES of RAM and a 500GB HDD, with 476 GB FREE! My High Sierra 10.15 does not work. It!s`s laggy and BS also, the permissions are not resolved.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2020, 02:32:20 PM »
After all of the rancor and controversy so far in this thread, some of which I certainly take responsibility for, I did NOT expect to be here yet again shaking my head at even more incomprehensible posting…… BUT:

I have no idea where my problem lies. I have a Mac G4 and it has 12 GIGABYTES of RAM and a 500GB HDD, with 476 GB FREE! My High Sierra 10.15 does not work. It!s`s laggy and BS also, the permissions are not resolved.

Bob, your problem surely must have something to do with the fact that you think you're running High Sierra 10.15… it's 10.13

Or, maybe it's that you think it's running in 12Gb of RAM on a G4 which actually would be "laggy" if it was even possible

Or, maybe it's because hardly anyone has had permissions problems since 10.8 or thereabouts

That is all guesswork of course since you forgot to mention what your "problem" even is

Offline Bob

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2020, 03:37:56 PM »
After all of the rancor and controversy so far in this thread, some of which I certainly take responsibility for, I did NOT expect to be here yet again shaking my head at even more incomprehensible posting…

Bob, your problem surely must have something to do with the fact that you think you're running High Sierra 10.15… it's 10.13

Or, maybe it's that you think it's running in 12Gb of RAM on a G4 which actually would be "laggy" if it was even possible

Or, maybe it's because hardly anyone has had permissions problems since 10.8 or thereabouts

That is all guesswork of course since you forgot to mention what your "problem" even is
My OSX is running High Sierra, I am unable to format a CD, nor put any sort of privileges to write and read, the system also runs very slow, and the iMac (from 2009) is not cooling itself properly. It also has been serviced in the past year or so. I am sorry that my version number and model of mac were incorrect, but I for certain know, that it has 12GB (2x4+2x2GB) of RAM and 599GB HDD and is a late 2009 iMac.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2020, 06:33:12 PM »
OK. I see you're relatively new here so I'd be remiss if I didn't point out:

This thread has a subject - that being running old browsers on a modern internet.
If you need help with hardware or software function in general, there are other categories for that.

With that out of the way, you seem to have a serious issue that could be either hardware or software related.

If your computer is overheating, it's either because the fan(s) are broken OR the temp sensors are not telling the controller they're getting hot OR the controller is out to lunch.
Out of curiosity, what was the iMac serviced FOR? Was it related to this?

"Put privileges to write and read" generally makes no sense. UNLESS you have copied the High Sierra OS from an improperly-formatted source, another computer OR in some way that has caused you to NOT become identified as the "owner" of your own computer, so that the OS "sees" you as an UN-authorized user and is severely restricting your privileges to do anything. That could (not definitely, but could) also cause what you describe as "laggy" behavior.

Let's be clear: It takes a really, really f**ked-up installation OR really careless tampering to get the system to essentially lock you out of your own system - that's why I say it's possibly seeing you as somebody else.

I think you should (at least I would) start by trashing everything and re-formatting the entire mess from scratch to see if anything (or EVERYthing) improves.

…and again, standard query: You DO have anything important backed up, don't you?

THAT ALL SAID…


With time on my hands like everybody else, I've tried to help BUT:

Why oh why are you looking for help for an Intel Mac running OSX 10.13 on a Forum dedicated to vintage Macs that even has "OS9" in it's name?

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2020, 07:43:33 PM »
2.) E-Mail and OS9 work fine for me. Try the Classilla E-Mailer. I use it daily to check my e-mails from gmail (POP). If it doesn't work, check if your gmail settings allow for "unsecure POP connections" or something - assuming you're not trying IMAP. (the settings are to be found within your Gmail account - not the e-mail client)

Just wanted to chime in that IMAP in Classilla with Gmail works just fine. It's what I have used with it for the last 10 years or so.
Still worked fine when I checked my mail using the TiBook this morning :P

So, why won't outlook express 5 work ? For some reason its not working - gmail uses imap and I created a new email account with NO SECURITY and it still won't work. I tell it to goto 993 port imap.gmail.com - incoming, SSL and Encrypt Password. smtp settings: port 587 smtp.gmail.com and still its not working. Yes, It works on Cameron's Classila, however it won't work under outlook express 5 or Mulberry, or even Netscape's email client.

Because something was changed so that the client can no longer communicate with the server? Does it not make sense that Classilla which has been updated works over clients that haven't been updated? It's like you're asking why you can't make your car go faster by whipping the horses/reins harder. The interface is no longer valid. It's most likely a non trivial change because you're trying to shoehorn something new into something old.

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2020, 07:49:35 PM »
Oh good news to report. i found a developer who goes by Witnicks I think on macrumors who can redesign and place the modern security protocols and TLS's into classila, however he told me he does not have any experience with OS 9, but if he can get it to work under 10.0-10.3.9 then it really doesn't matter, since classila under 9 will still work even though the security updates were added in OS X. Classila is backward compatible with earlier versions of OS X, minus Tiger of course.

Stay tuned..

Not an expert, but reading this, you found someone who is of no help at all until he can code for OS 9. Until then, his experience with modern security protocols and TLS into Classilla is worth zero, unless he pairs his knowledge and skills with someone who can do the other half. It also sounds like he doesn't know Classilla either? I don't know if it is open source? So it's like you have someone who can do a third?, which can't be started until the first two pieces are taken care of. Maybe he can help the coder of Classilla, but can't directly do anything with Classilla at all right now.

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2020, 08:05:17 PM »
Jeez man, give it a rest already.
I have to step in and assist Roman323 a little bit! ;)
To argue agains the development the society and the IT business is doing is always of value. It reminds us that a lot of things are going wrong. The need of all the ads is not useful for us, as well as 90% of the stuff modern OSs are doing in the background, are of no value for us users, and do not improve our tools, that our computers always should be.

a seriously flawed (lovable, but flawed) operating system
Thats bullshit. Yes, 9 has some issues, but Unix is nothing that people at single workplaces need at all. Remember, it was Apple who needed some of the functionality of X (and those in cheapest possible ways, and in cooperation with Steve and usage of his Next), not the users. And those who can use Unix are fine with other Unix OS' as well. There was no need to go this direction, and no "flaw" of Mac OS 9 at all. And do not come along with the "missing memory protection", …

it's called OSX. It works really, really well.
No it does not, but you do not recognize it anymore. If you are still using 9 on a daily basis, as I do, you can see how useless most of Xs stuff is! I have two new experiances that again confirmed my last decades experiance with X.

1.) I have now sometimes to work at a G5 4x 2,5 with 16 GB Ram. And this machine is so damn slow with most stuff!. I could improve the experiance a lot in downgrading to 10.4, kicking spotlight and a bunch of other useless programs, but still I have to wait 5 times more than at a well installed 9 machine at 1 GHz. That means this machine feels 50 times slower than it should with 9! Why the hell do I have to wait 10 seconds until a file openes? Why do I have to watch a bouncing ball, when I paste 1 line of text? Why the hell are most concepts focused on presentation instead of workflow? No, X is a still a pain, and impudence. I still do not get why anybody ever accepted it and started to use it. The only cause why most people do not feel like this today, is that the hardware provides in the meantime nealy endless computing power for wasting.

2.) I had my first experiance with X 10.14, and beside the fact that its GUI is crap, its possibilities are only used by software that is bossing around the users. Program X needs internet access for updating, before you can close it. Program y likes to get access to some hardware, Program z needs veryfication as you are at the wrong place, … and so on. It was just a pain.

I browse the damn internet with Firefox and Safari under Mojave.
There is no cause why webbrowsing should not work perfectly at any 9 machine. It is just a cause of good programming. When I see what my MDD can do at (the still quite slow) LinuxMint PPC, there is no argument why it should not work with the much faster 9 as well. Especially if we would exclude all the ads in a wise way.

It's not just all the ads. Clientside webcode and classes and styles and just plain infrastructure has changed a "lot". I'm not really all that current, but from some of the stuff I have seen, the coders have gotten extremely lazy just like back in the day for Windows stuff, where the fix wasn't to write better code, it was just just by more RAM, storage, etc because it was faster and easier of a fix than to just do things properly. Seems like most current tools do some things for the developer, so that they don't have to write lean and fast code. Webcoders who write like 3000 lines of javascript, and 10 lines of HTML and wonder why their website runs like garbage as a generic example. Or claim they don't use javascript, they use jquery... (for those that don't know, jquery is pre-established library of javascript, from what I've quickly gleaned-haven't looked that deeply into it, so I could be partially wrong), or don't know enough math or logic and try to blame latency instead of the fact they their order/logic of operations is so inefficient that they try to blame latency instead of their their terrible organization or poor understanding of the frameworks.

Of course there is a reason why OS 9 doesn't work as well as Linux Mint PPC. Isn't one more recently supported/updated? It's like you're trying to say that your 20 year old car should run as well as your car from 2 years ago, despite the fact that neither one has ever had dealer maintenance or rebuilds done on it.

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2020, 08:28:31 PM »
it is pointless to try to update classilla because almost nobody uses it. we should be happy with all the years of free support by the project and let go browsing html.

Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165zBELlHWw - This is someone running windows 2000 and the IE browser at the time with the help of an app which allows old browsers to browse the web. I would gladly pay any developer for making something like this to run on Mac OS.. But, due to Gary trying to make me understand, I will just put that idea away.

If it is the tool that I am thinking of, it converts a webpage to an image, and then maps links to the coordinates within the image. So... just from a quick mental analysis of it, it won't work for any dynamic websites without deeper parsing than pull all the anchor tags, etc. Does OS9 have their own internal parsing of websites? I'm new to any Mac OS for the most part, but it seems like Apple has their own handling of elements on webpages, so that might be another layer on top of the browser handling that Windows browsers don't have.
This probably isn't going to be something that would just be a couple weekends project for anyone. Probably the original builder of the tool could do it much faster, but it doesn't seem like it's a small amount of work.

Offline XinSheng

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2020, 08:40:11 PM »
exactly. it is 2020 now and we should focus on what we can do in 2021, and not what somebody else might have done wrong in 2001.

in theory, the 7447a can run at up to 2,4 GHz. any takers?

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/anyone-need-7448-cpus-for-soldering-upgrades.2234923/

Why stop with 7447a, if these 7448 chips are real.

Offline Bob

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2020, 01:22:39 AM »
OK. I see you're relatively new here so I'd be remiss if I didn't point out:

This thread has a subject - that being running old browsers on a modern internet.
If you need help with hardware or software function in general, there are other categories for that.

With that out of the way, you seem to have a serious issue that could be either hardware or software related.

If your computer is overheating, it's either because the fan(s) are broken OR the temp sensors are not telling the controller they're getting hot OR the controller is out to lunch.
Out of curiosity, what was the iMac serviced FOR? Was it related to this?

"Put privileges to write and read" generally makes no sense. UNLESS you have copied the High Sierra OS from an improperly-formatted source, another computer OR in some way that has caused you to NOT become identified as the "owner" of your own computer, so that the OS "sees" you as an UN-authorized user and is severely restricting your privileges to do anything. That could (not definitely, but could) also cause what you describe as "laggy" behavior.

Let's be clear: It takes a really, really f**ked-up installation OR really careless tampering to get the system to essentially lock you out of your own system - that's why I say it's possibly seeing you as somebody else.

I think you should (at least I would) start by trashing everything and re-formatting the entire mess from scratch to see if anything (or EVERYthing) improves.

…and again, standard query: You DO have anything important backed up, don't you?

THAT ALL SAID…


With time on my hands like everybody else, I've tried to help BUT:

Why oh why are you looking for help for an Intel Mac running OSX 10.13 on a Forum dedicated to vintage Macs that even has "OS9" in it's name?
Well then,
WHY OH WHY Don't you read the CONTEXT of my message, I didn't say I want help, I implicitly said, if OSX works WHY DOESN'T IT RUN FASTER ON MY MACHINE?, but it seems you are incapable of reading and understanding the implicit meaning of things. If I wanted help, I'd go to apple support, not a website that has a 9 in it's name, you also must think of me as blind, if you say such BS.

Online IIO

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2020, 01:42:20 AM »
If your computer is overheating, it's either because the fan(s) are broken OR the temp sensors are not telling the controller they're getting hot OR the controller is out to lunch.

gary´s explanation is already weird - but look at the explanation (or should i better say "excuse" for these design bugs) of this apple discussion forum admin regarding an overheating imac 2009:

"What you should be looking for is why your machine is overheating and addressing the issue directly. Overheating can be caused by either hardware issues such as a failed or failing fan or fan control or software that is using more CPU cycles than it should. Rather than focusing on the symptom, focus on the cause."

so if your imac 2009 or powerbook 2009 is running too hot, you are most likely running an application which is using more CPU cycles than it should.

lolz.

in other words: dear customer, when we sell you a processor with 2,4 GHz, how dare you to expect that it can operate at 2,4 GHz?
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Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2020, 01:04:27 PM »
Well then,
WHY OH WHY Don't you read the CONTEXT of my message, I didn't say I want help, I implicitly said, if OSX works WHY DOESN'T IT RUN FASTER ON MY MACHINE?, but it seems you are incapable of reading and understanding the implicit meaning of things. If I wanted help, I'd go to apple support, not a website that has a 9 in it's name, you also must think of me as blind, if you say such BS.

Don't be an ass. THIS is exactly what you wrote:

I have no idea where my problem lies. I have a Mac G4 and it has 12 GIGABYTES of RAM and a 500GB HDD, with 476 GB FREE! My High Sierra 10.15 does not work. It!s`s laggy and BS also, the permissions are not resolved.

…And, that's ALL you wrote. All I did was respond to exactly what you wrote - even as incomprehensible as it was. If all you really wanted was to bitch about your computer (your still unidentified computer) you might want to try Louis Rossman's channel on YouTube. You can wallow in all of the horrible Apple defects he shows there.

**** "I implicitly said, if OSX works WHY DOESN'T IT RUN FASTER ON MY MACHINE?"
Actually, you said it's "BS" and "laggy" with some kind of vague permissions problem. "BS" and "laggy" may be specific technical terms in your world but not in anyone else's.
This is the internet. It's your responsibility to make sure you're understood - not mine, and when you talk about your "G4 with 12 Gb of RAM" running High Sierra you leave the definite impression that you're either plain ignorant of what machine you're pounding on or slightly disturbed somehow.

Maybe you should actually go to Apple support with that complaint - those guys are at least getting paid to sort through incomprehensible communications like yours.

* Note to 110 and anybody else who thinks I'm being rude to this guy:

I really don't care. With all of the horrible bullshit happening in the streets, a narcissistic MORON in the White House, virus in the air etc etc etc etc……
I don't feel any need this week to respond to this kind of nonsense with some kind of kumbaya.

Offline GaryN

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2020, 01:10:45 PM »
If your computer is overheating, it's either because the fan(s) are broken OR the temp sensors are not telling the controller they're getting hot OR the controller is out to lunch.

gary´s explanation is already weird - but look at the explanation (or should i better say "excuse" for these design bugs) of this apple discussion forum admin regarding an overheating imac 2009:

"What you should be looking for is why your machine is overheating and addressing the issue directly. Overheating can be caused by either hardware issues such as a failed or failing fan or fan control or software that is using more CPU cycles than it should. Rather than focusing on the symptom, focus on the cause."

so if your imac 2009 or powerbook 2009 is running too hot, you are most likely running an application which is using more CPU cycles than it should.

lolz.

in other words: dear customer, when we sell you a processor with 2,4 GHz, how dare you to expect that it can operate at 2,4 GHz?

You DO realize you just said MY explanation was "weird" and then quoted the Apple discussion saying exactly the same thing, don't you?

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2020, 01:31:18 PM »
no, not even you were saying one shouldnt run apps which require too much CPU.

the common explanation is that these machines are suffering from shitty hardware designs, that´s all, the rest are excuses from apple and others.

when a fan breaks in a computer... then the machine runs for 5 minutes before it turns off.

the moron in the white house, haha, he resides across the "BLM Plaza" now. :)

i wouldnt mind if they run him over tomorrow. just pls dont destroy that wonderful building, kids.
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Offline Bob

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2020, 02:34:19 PM »
* Note to 110 and anybody else who thinks I'm being rude to this guy:

I really don't care. With all of the horrible bullshit happening in the streets, a narcissistic MORON in the White House, virus in the air etc etc etc etc……
I don't feel any need this week to respond to this kind of nonsense with some kind of kumbaya.
We have a drunkard as a president and a prime minister who steals money from the EU and you don't see me complaining and calling you an ass.

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Re: Certificates in Icab & Classilla
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2020, 09:19:43 AM »
this thread went boom when roman323 came here with his browser bullshit for the 25th time, which could only be answered rude.^^

10,000 in frankfurt, 20,000 in berlin, 15,000 in hamburg, 25,000 in munich - and counting.

good luck, washington, have a great day everyone & stay safe.
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