Author Topic: The Monte Method  (Read 18438 times)

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2016, 06:53:41 PM »
MusicWorks, ASR seem to be the method.

Thanks anyway for your deep test.

I only see a spot on older Mac OS were ASR could refuse to work (?)

Now I am thinking on using ASR to clone a PT Panther "virgin" of plugs  instead of using Carbon Copy Clonner as I used to.

I have an Audiomedia III that can run PT 4 not LE, but never tried. Probably has all the keycommands from TDM. I should try it.

Some TDM plugs non RTAS have an Audiosuite that runs on AM-3 (and Digi 001). Arboretum was one IIRC.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2016, 06:54:49 PM »
Could you post an image of your authored drive to check it?
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2016, 09:25:49 PM »
  It's nice to know I have multiple routes to essentially boot my system from a duplicate drive because I'd feel far safer knowing I could always re-copy the image in the event of corruption or disk failure.  If I could install the 'master copy' on an SSD or other form of non-magnetic/non-mechanical media I'd feel an even greater sense of security in the integrity of the original.

Now, the things that didn't work as expected (sorry, no reclaimed auths):

- Individual authorizations have some sort of identifier making it impossible to reclaim auths (at least that goes for Digidesign...authorizations of Steinberg software *will* work according to the available docs). Tested software authorizer floppies: Pro Tools 4.0.1, Sound Designer 2.8, MasterList CD 2.1, Deck 2.61, Peak 2.03 and DIN-R 1.1.

- When trying to deauth it simply stated that the authorization was installed from another floppy and that if uninstalled it wouldn't increase the authorization count -clever bast*ards!  ;D

  I guess Digidesign didn't care about the implications of a damaged authorization source disk, forever locking your particular auth in place in the system even if you wanted to be able to move it to another system.  (Was this the purpose of the "Authorization Backup Disk", to give you a second chance?)  Does this really mean you had to keep track of which particular disk(s) was used to authorize which particular system?  This could get extraordinarily confusing in a large facility, like I was working in, where systems required authorization from multiple disks for all installed features.  You'd have to number all your disks and keep a careful log.

  I'm not certain if you're implying a disk with unused authorizations cannot be replicated, effectively multiplying your pool of available auths?  Did Digi's applications snoop around your network to check for the existence of duplicate auth serial numbers in the event that someone actually managed to pull this off?

Offline MusicWorks

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 05:27:55 AM »
Quote
It's nice to know I have multiple routes to essentially boot my system from a duplicate drive because I'd feel far safer knowing I could always re-copy the image in the event of corruption or disk failure.  If I could install the 'master copy' on an SSD or other form of non-magnetic/non-mechanical media I'd feel an even greater sense of security in the integrity of the original.

Yep, it definitively offers peace of mind having an image you can restore in 10 minutes. Now, making the bootable CD is not always an easy task in Toast 3.5.x -specially if you have one of the "problematic" drives like my lovely Teac R55S. It is a great burner, but a bit finicky with Toast. Other models, like some Yamaha's, don't have this compatibility issues. However, a proper burn of the restore file generated by HDT will always be restorable (be it from a bootable CD or an external drive with a System folder and the required software.

I have also gone through the SSD-non mechanical/moving parts- logic regarding hard drive durability and stability -my conclusions are far from what this logic offered in the first place. Magnetic technology is extremely mature, with almost a century of development -not only hard drives of course, but also tape-based storage systems available since the late 60s/early 70s. For instance, the 20MB hard drive in my dads 22 year old (!) PowerBook 145B is alive and kicking and has properly stored all it's files since 93.

SSD technology is not mature enough in my opinion, and most reasonably priced options (that becomes affordable over time) usually don't have the quality components required for long term stability of these drives. Also, in the event of data corruption or damage absolutely no information will be recovered from a flash drive -whereas plates of a dissembled HDD will always be partly accessible.

I basically threw out my Transcend SSD and opted for Samsung Spinpoint 5400RPM drives if possible. For the older 7100/8100 I certainly recommend the Apple branded Quantum Fireball 1.2GB drive. If it's one of the good ones it will last forever.

Please note the MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) of SSDs is still considerably lower than high-grade magnetic HDs.

Quote
I guess Digidesign didn't care about the implications of a damaged authorization source disk, forever locking your particular auth in place in the system even if you wanted to be able to move it to another system.  (Was this the purpose of the "Authorization Backup Disk", to give you a second chance?)

From what I have read in the forums, Digidesign was never quite fond of replacing floppy authorization disks, but where of course required to during the time in which these versions were supported. They were usually quite fast in removing support for older versions. This is probably the reason why the "Authorization Backup" floppies came around at about 3.1. Basically they included extra auths for the system, in a separate floppy with black and white labelling (instead of the color labels in the main install disks, that included auths). I am not aware of v4.0 onwards including any backup disks -please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Masterlist CD -Digidesign approved Red Book CD mastering creation software- also included said backup authorization disks starting from version 2.0 as well as DIN-R 1.0-1.1 onwards.

Quote
Does this really mean you had to keep track of which particular disk(s) was used to authorize which particular system?  This could get extraordinarily confusing in a large facility, like I was working in, where systems required authorization from multiple disks for all installed features.  You'd have to number all your disks and keep a careful log.

Indeed yes, you had to keep track of all disks/particular system they were installed onto -because the authorizing setup will spit out the disk if it's not the proper authorizer floppy. This also applies to the Backup floppies, it will know if that particular auth written to disk was authorized with other disk and spit it out requesting the proper floppy. A bit confusing, but doable considering each Pro Tools editing suite required just one auth (PT auth + TDM auth)

Quote
I'm not certain if you're implying a disk with unused authorizations cannot be replicated, effectively multiplying your pool of available auths?  Did Digi's applications snoop around your network to check for the existence of duplicate auth serial numbers in the event that someone actually managed to pull this off?

In my findings, each particular authorization key written to disk is individually identified and an exact clone of the authorization floppy will *not* de-authorize an existing auth. The authorization process indicates that it was authorized with another floppy. My guess is that the floppy disk already knows that particular key had already been rewritten to the floppy and deauthed from the hard disk.

So, no retrieving lost authorizations. We would need to locate the original hard drive(s) to which the missing authorizations were written and deauth those drives. Even if you managed to find them, the probability of them still having those auths is slim (probably formatted at some point)

By the way, I have been testing Mac OS 8.6 on a primer install and it works great! No problem using the authorizers, installation went smooth and I can be almost 100% certain PT4.0 will work like a charm. The main difference is the software versions needed for 8.6. That would be Drive Setup 1.73, Hard Disk Toolkit 4.5.2, Norton Utilities 4.0, Toast 3.5.7 and Stuffit Deluxe 5.1.

Same process, same order!

Best,

- MusicWorks


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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 08:21:14 AM »
I basically threw out my Transcend SSD and opted for Samsung Spinpoint 5400RPM drives if possible. For the older 7100/8100 I certainly recommend the Apple branded Quantum Fireball 1.2GB drive. If it's one of the good ones it will last forever.

Please note the MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) of SSDs is still considerably lower than high-grade magnetic HDs.

  To clarify, I only meant that I would build a first install on an SSD, duplicate it and then run the working copy (copies) on magnetic drives.  The SSD then becomes the backup and remains unused, removing the concern about MTBF.  Additionally, the working media could be additional SSDs or even flash drives with adapters, and I would treat these as disposable.  I have plenty enough PATA SSDs at my disposal that I don't care if they fail if they are actually a duplicate of the original drive image.

  I've had bad luck with compatibility when using the Transcend-branded PATA drives.  Most Powerbooks had major issues, including my Pismo that refused to even start up to the point of turning on the screen.  My TiBooks would get all the way through an OSX install, then on the first or second boot crash and corrupt the partition beyond recovery and recognition.  It's no surprise you got rid of yours.  Oddly, in my Quicksilver I have one of these Transcend PATA through a SATA converter to a PCI card and it's worked flawlessly for years under OSX and OS9.  I had two of these in a RAID mirror on what had been my primary PC running Windows 2000 for many years, and the boot partition at that.  There were occasional problems but it was always the fault of the lousy Intel RAID variant on that particular motherboard.  Every so often the controller would flag one or the other drive as bad.  After wiping the offending drive and putting it back in, the controller would always successfully rebuild the mirror and continue on like nothing had happened.  This was a known problem across a number of Intel controllers.

  I have otherwise very happily and successfully been using slightly more recent Kingspec PATA SSDs on all platforms without any issues whatsoever.  They are clearly a better-designed product, at least from a legacy ATA mode standpoint.  I am very curious to get hold of an IDE-to-SCSI or SATA-to-SCSI adapter to test on the older machines with the built-in SCSI so that I have more options for connecting drives to the 50-pin busses.  I am especially interested to see if such a thing would play ball with the pickier Digi or Sonic busses.

Quote
I am not aware of v4.0 onwards including any backup disks -please do correct me if I'm wrong.

  My only such disk is labelled "Version 4.0, 4.1, 4.1.1" and it came along with its primary disk mate.

Quote
In my findings, each particular authorization key written to disk is individually identified and an exact clone of the authorization floppy will *not* de-authorize an existing auth. The authorization process indicates that it was authorized with another floppy. My guess is that the floppy disk already knows that particular key had already been rewritten to the floppy and deauthed from the hard disk.

So, no retrieving lost authorizations. We would need to locate the original hard drive(s) to which the missing authorizations were written and deauth those drives. Even if you managed to find them, the probability of them still having those auths is slim (probably formatted at some point)

  I wasn't referring to recovering used auths - I meant taking a floppy that still has the original auth(s) on it or remaining and duplicating it BEFORE authorizing any system.  If the floppy can be cloned at the beginning stage, and there's no way multiple systems authorized from exact duplicate floppies with the same duplicated auth instance have any way to interact with each other on a network (if it was capable of that kind of snooping anyway), then replicated original auths shouldn't be an issue.  You could even test this by taking two duplicate copies, authorizing two systems networked together, and then see if they wreck one-another.  Your original would still be intact because you only tested using multiple duplicate floppies.  It's kinda like I said about the SSDs - You make an original but only work from a duplicate in order to preserve the integrity of the original media.  Why bother backing up a master install and storing the copy when you can make the master install itself the backup and work from a copy?  You can still make a CD copy (or other backup storage media) for redundancy.  I would personally go so far as to make multiple copies of the CD.  There's also something now called an M-Disk with a claimed 1000-year-plus lifespan, based around the DVD/Blu-ray format.  Some of my existing Mac archives originally burned to CDs and DVDs are now being duplicated on a modern-day machine to M-Disks.  I'm considering restoring all my Exabyte tapes, backing up the contents to new optical media, and then duplicating the new backups to M-Disk.

Quote
By the way, I have been testing Mac OS 8.6 on a primer install and it works great! No problem using the authorizers, installation went smooth and I can be almost 100% certain PT4.0 will work like a charm. The main difference is the software versions needed for 8.6. That would be Drive Setup 1.73, Hard Disk Toolkit 4.5.2, Norton Utilities 4.0, Toast 3.5.7 and Stuffit Deluxe 5.1.

Same process, same order!

  This is very good to hear!  The PowerPC ECI card I bought from eBay just arrived in the mail, so I'll have a test system of a few cards up and running in the nubus expansion chassis hopefully early next week when I have some time.

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 09:38:59 AM »
  I began corralling all the parts for the 9150/120 test system this morning.  I'm re-discovering just what a bloat of parts I really have lying around, like enough to sink a ship.  It's really time for me to get organized again!

  There are so many nubus-PDS upgrade processors I don't even know what they all are.  (I once bought a box of something like 20 of them off eBay, in addition to what I've picked up individually.)  I feel silly now because it turns out I actually DO have a 300MHz Newertech with the video cable, I just got confused by the other two 300MHz's that don't.  I'd already actually elegantly solved the problem of the cable direction in the 9150.  The Newertech's cable joins to a 6100 PDS pass-through board which corrects the aim by the remaining 90 degrees without heavily stressing the Newertech cable, which only does a reverse 90 degrees from its normal config.  The pass-through board is still mounted to its 6100 support frame which then secures and protects the PDS video card.  The backplate on the Newertech processor was replaced with one taken off an unused PDS AV video card so that it would have an opening to mount the monitor port extension.  I built my own extensions by taking a PC game port extension ribbon cable which has a DB-15 female (had many spares), cutting off the internal header, and then adding a crimp-on DB-15 male for the PDS card end.  At some point I will fabricate a metal brace to tie the metal frame of the 6100 PDS angle-brace to the frame of the power supply.  If this sounds confusing, don't worry, I'll eventually post photos.

  I was wondering about supported CD burners under particular versions of Toast.  A lot of the older 4x-write max drives can have issues consistently writing without errors to the currently available high-speed-write-optimized media.  I have a Yamaha 8/4/24 SCSI drive that I used to use on a PC.  Is this supported under those Toast versions?

Offline Syntho

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2016, 01:17:36 AM »
So basically, using ASR won't preserve my PT key disk authorizations, but using the Monte method with FWB will?

Offline Bolle

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2018, 05:28:39 AM »
So did any of those authenticated images make it to the net somewhere?
Got my hands on a nice set of TDM Nubus cards and a 882 and 442 some time ago but they are kind of useless without being able to run 3.2 or 4.0 in TDM mix mode.

Offline Syntho

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2020, 08:54:36 AM »
I think I’m gonna have to be a guinea pig and try ASR for saving Pro Tools authorizations. Let’s see how it goes...

Offline Syntho

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Re: The Monte Method
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2020, 09:30:32 AM »
HOLY SHIT... Thanks to MusicWorks for posting that copy authorization sit file. I’m not touching my original diskettes now because that patcher program in there actually WORKED with some copies of key disks I had archived.

Haven’t tried ASR yet but will get to that this week sometime.