Author Topic: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x  (Read 13056 times)

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« on: January 23, 2016, 09:03:44 PM »
  All the excitement around here for a while has obviously surrounded the booting of OS 9.2.2 on unsupported machines.  There was a comment from a user suggesting that the technical understandings gained from this development work might later allow OS 9.x-minimum machines to boot the earlier OS 8.6 too.  This is something I'm very interested in because I've pretty much exhausted all avenues for moving past 8.6 with one particular piece of hardware that is a preferred part of one type of DAW I use.  There is much to be gained where it concerns CPU-intensive tasks, improved video speed/resolution/dual monitor support, PCI bus integrity/speed, and the general smooth UI feel of getting beyond a Graphite G4/AGP.  Now that I have a FW800 MDD with Dual 1.8GHz Sonnet upgrade booting the unsupported 9.2.2, I'd really like to know if it would be possible to have it also boot 8.6.  (Or anything else far better than a Graphite G4/AGP.)

  My situation stems from unresolved problems with Sonic Solutions systems where they chose to abandon development of their driver for Medianet.  While the core hardware of this DAW system can operate alone without issue, performance and flexibility is greatly enhanced by adding Medianet.  Medianet is a hybrid of a specialized SCSI accelerator host card with FDDI networking supporting AppleTalk.  As soon as you hit OS 9.x there are serious fundamental issues created once its extension loads, which drags down the speed of the whole computer.  I can't pin-point the exact source of the slowdown.  It sorta works, slowly, but not completely.  A faster CPU helps a little but never allows it to completely function.  Given that I'm likely the only member here who knows about the Sonic Solutions systems in-depth, and have experimented thoroughly to resolve the issue, I doubt this problem will ever be fixed within the OS 9.x environment.  I would happily back down to 8.6 if I could use later CPU hardware though.

  I'd like to know your thoughts on how far 8.6 might be taken, particularly in the video card driver department (especially where it concerns ATI cards).  Obviously I'd hope for the MDD series, but I also have a Quicksilver at my disposal with a Dual 1.8GHz upgrade of it's own. A Radeon 9000 and GeForce4 Ti4600 are available in my collection for best video performance (only concerned with best 2D and especially scrolling performance).  If anyone has an idea what exactly it is about OS 9.x that messes up the Medianet card so much, I'm all-ears.

Offline Mat

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 422
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 01:28:49 AM »
Not exactly your question, but I had a few thoughts, when I read your posting.

8.6 at G4s. What was the latest G4 officially supporting 8.6? THe G4 500 AGP? Why exactly do you need a MDD or Quicksilver. Wouldn´t a earlier G4 with an Upgradecard bring you back more speed with your medianet

Sonnet dual 1,8 Upgrades. Don´t they require 9.2.2 as well? What would the fastest official Sonnetupgrade be that officially supports 8.6? I am thinking if it is possible at all to run the latest Sonnet cards with 8.6 or if this is another showstopper?

Radeon 9000 and GeForce4 Ti4600. If you only need 2D there are several really fast cards out there that work officially with 8.6. The Formac products, the 3dfx, earlier Radeons, or the still very fine Matrox cards.

Offline Jakl

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2016, 03:11:59 AM »
I'm quite sure that I have read a post here somewhere in this forum - which I cannot find at the moment - but where I think Mactron was talking about this very topic - Mactron is this possible - booting macos 8.6 on an unsupported G4?

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 06:12:31 AM »

  I'd like to know your thoughts on how far 8.6 might be taken, particularly in the video card driver department (especially where it concerns ATI cards).

The video card support of Mac os 8.6 is the same than Mac Os 9.2. You just have to install the latest ATI or nVidia drivers.

I'm quite sure that I have read a post here somewhere in this forum - which I cannot find at the moment - but where I think Mactron was talking about this very topic - Mactron is this possible - booting macos 8.6 on an unsupported G4?

Yes, It is possible, I think.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2409.msg13570#msg13570

The Only G4 CPU that Mac Os 8.6 can deal with is a 7400. So to boot Mac Os 8.6 in a Mac with the latest G4 CPUs (7450, 7455, 7447, 7448 ...) a open firmware hack is needed.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 11:50:25 AM »
We should PM iMic about this, I had been very interested in this idea for a while, but stopped perusing it.

One of my MDD single 1.33 Ghz. running 8.6 might a sight to behold :)

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 12:37:12 PM »
One of my MDD single 1.33 Ghz. running 8.6 might a sight to behold :)

The MDD have a *very* different uninorth chip, probably the 8.6 can't boot on this machine anyways ...

The remaining G4 desktops are very similar each other.


The 9.2.2, once optimized, is better than the 8.6. I have tested both on the G4 Sawtooth.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline IIO

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1953
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 02:25:37 PM »
what application is that which does not run on 9.x but on 8.6 ?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 08:25:31 AM »
Quote
The MDD have a *very* different uninorth chip, probably the 8.6 can't boot on this machine anyways ...

The remaining G4 desktops are very similar each other.

I have some older network clients and music apps I would like to bench on a QS 933 with 8.6 to compare with 9.2.2, so even a quick OF hack to get 8.6 to load on a QS still interests me :)

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 11:30:44 AM »
To be more specific about why I would prefer a (much) later machine:

- faster bus speed.
- faster RAM support, possibly improved 'picky-ness' about RAM module types.
- resolution of built-in bugs in older hardware chipsets.
- more-advanced and more-compatible PCI bus controller.
- better ATA on-board, with three busses and large drive support, without wasting precious PCI slots with an upgrade card.
- gigabit ethernet built in, also not wasting a PCI slot.
- AGP 4x and ADC support, also with more USB ports provided by ADC connector or monitor.
- better tolerance of multiple high-bandwidth PCI cards at same time.
- not feeling like the whole motherboard is 'wasting' powerful CPU upgrades and Video cards by being a slow 'foundation'.

Every Mac model has it's own specific set of what I call 'voodoo issues'.  In one place I worked they found that Quicksilvers would quite consistently literally fry a certain Miro video capture card.  I just want the best I can do without having to deal with predictable or unpredictable 'voodoo issues'.  I've wasted countless hours on almost every machine I own trying to work around silly obscure issues, most of which can be avoided simply by using later and better machines.  Could I live with a Graphite G4/AGP?  Sure.  Can I have a much smoother and more-efficient ride with a later machine?  I certainly think so.

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 09:27:40 AM »
Hey MacOS, I have a few "Aurora Capture Cards" in the back of my shop, you can have one for shipping only if you want it, don't know if it's as good, but I never heard of Aurora PCI's getting "fried"

Offline ELN

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 212
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2016, 07:34:30 PM »
Here's my AU $0.02:

Mac OS 8.6 and 9.2.2 are, for most people, the best versions of the OS for a PowerPC Mac.

OS 8.6 had a very nice System 7-style blue environment, and a new Nanokernel (v2) that improved interrupt latency, power consumption and stability. But the oddball machine-specific release for the earliest G4s had very flaky AltiVec support in the kernel (v2.11), so I would avoid that kernel version. It is a great OS.

OS 9.2.2 was the culmination of a great deal of work on the Nanokernel and the Multiprocessing Services API. It is a great OS.

OS 8.6 would need to use a newer Nanokernel and drivers on newer hardware. This would be accomplished most easily by swapping in a new Mac OS ROM file. And that should probably be combined with that machine-specific 8.6.

MacOS Plus: could you please send me a copy of the extension that is giving you grief?

And are MacOS Plus and MacTron interested in giving this a go?

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2016, 08:39:52 PM »
  Thank-you very much for your offer of help with this.  Of all the possible things I've ever wanted to see made work with OS 9, this Medianet issue is #1 for me.  Alternatively, making later machines work correctly with OS 8.6 would be a decent compromise.  I'm very interested and curious to try both routes really because I can't be sure which path gives the best overall support for the best-performing hardware.  The better the performance and flexibility of the system, the more applications I can run on one machine in one environment.  I'm getting tired of, and running out of room for, maintaining specific customized machines for each application and hardware set I want to run.

  I don't know what actually changed between OS 8.6 and OS 9.x to break the Medianet support.  I'm guessing the required interaction with AppleTalk/Open Transport is the culprit but I have no proof.  The host computer seems to be of no consequence because the bad behaviour can be replicated by booting my 8600 into 9.1.  It works perfectly well if the 8600 is booting 8.6.  I seem to recall even seeing the same behaviour difference on a Nubus 9150 with the Nubus version of the hardware.  The machine was dual-boot with an 8.6 drive and 9.1 drive.

  I'd be quite happy to help with experiments for getting late-model machines booting OS 8.6.  I have a lot of hardware at my disposal for such testing.  When I was still working professionally with audio, the majority of the systems I was working with were booting OS 8.6.

  I'm not sure what I'd have to do to get the Medianet files to you.  Suggestions are welcome - PM me.  I'd have to do any testing locally because it needs the hardware present to load fully, but hopefully the content of the files and the OS development documents you've been reading will give you enough clues.  I only have one functioning PCI Medianet card.  All the others are Nubus.  I'll post some additional information and hardware photos here when I get a chance.

  BTW, If anyone ever sees Sonic Solutions Medianet cards come up for sale on eBay, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!  I am still in the market for more of them, especially PCI ones.  They are extremely rare to find these days.

Offline ELN

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 212
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2016, 09:30:37 PM »
I've PM'ed you.

So if you're keen to give this a go, the procedure would be:
  • Start with a working Mac OS 8.6 installation on a supported machine.
  • Replace the Mac OS ROM file with one that would work on your newer machine.
  • Try booting the supported machine.
  • If that works, then try the unsupported machine.

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2016, 10:04:00 AM »
And are MacOS Plus and MacTron interested in giving this a go?

This isn't an important project for me .
 Any way, I think that we can learn alot from it, we have to replicate iMic and nanopico's work and learn how to add the 9.2 microkernel and some newest drivers to 8.6 ( to the Sawtoth version) .
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 10:43:39 AM by MacTron »
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline ELN

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 212
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2016, 10:17:20 PM »
I've got some code in my repo that can move around pretty much every combination of kernel, ROM image, early-boot driver and boot script (plug plug). That's stuff's pretty easy to do now.

https://github.com/elliotnunn/cdg5

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 02:43:31 PM »
  It took a little longer than intended to get around to the 8.6 test, but I finally tried it.  (After tons of mysterious hell trying to get drives behaving on two B&W G3s that had been in storage.  One won't even chime any longer - grrrrrr... )  I used the 8.5.1-G3 version of the install CD to make a fresh copy on a new PATA SSD drive, then updated to 8.6 and cleaned up the extensions arrangement.  I also replaced the Multiprocessing CPU Plugins extension with the one I'd been using under OS 9.2.2 Universal on the intended target G4 MDD machine.  (In fact I was booting the G3 from the 9.2.2 drive from the MDD to speed up the installation process rather than boot directly from the 8.5.1 CD.)

* Note, the Multiprocessing extension version made no difference to what happened next.

  On both the B&W G3 and the MDD G4 the end result of trying to boot 8.6 with the much later Mac OS ROM file was exactly the same - moments after the OS splash screen appears it halts with an "unimplemented trap" error.  I was hardly surprised by this.  Perhaps you guys know better than I what was changed in the later ROM file to break it working in 8.6, but this implies a fix could be difficult.  It also implies though that booting 8.6 on the MDD isn't necessarily impossible.

  Can anyone tell me what the most up-to-date ATI drivers are for Mac OS 8.6?  Are these available through an installer that will run under 8.6, or do they have to be installed under 9.x and copied over?

@ELN: I've created a Drop-box account.  When I figure out how to use it I will PM you with a download link for the Medianet files and an explanation of their usage.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 02:54:14 PM by MacOS Plus »

Offline nanopico

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 713
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 06:01:26 AM »
There are a lot of supporting resources in the ROM and any kernel swapping is highly unlikely to work or produce any reasonable result.
There is a reason it's different between ROM versions if nothing else than to support interfaces to other parts of the OS that are in the ROM resources or System file resources.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 09:44:36 AM »
  Ya, I know, I only tried it because ELN wanted to know what would happen.  I fully expected a 'fail'.  I did find it interesting that it failed in completely the same way at the same point on two machines so far apart in architecture.  This implies, as you say, a fundamental incompatability between the ROM and the rest of the operating system at a software level, long before hardware itself might crash the boot.  The fact that it gets as far as the OS splash screen on the MDD leaves hope for the situation though.

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2016, 10:37:42 AM »
You should try the Mac Os ROM v2.5.2 because it's the "most advanced" Mac Os 8.6 compatible ROM. But even though that, you should realize that this ROM lack some of the drivers needed for the MDD: the U2 ( and the ATA 100 ) support, by example.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2016, 11:20:49 AM »
A faster CPU helps a little but never allows it to completely function.  Given that I'm likely the only member here who knows about the Sonic Solutions systems in-depth, and have experimented thoroughly to resolve the issue, I doubt this problem will ever be fixed within the OS 9.x environment.  I would happily back down to 8.6 if I could use later CPU hardware though.

sounds to me like the best thing to do for this situation is to get a Sawtooth G4 and then get a CPU Upgrade to 1ghz or higher, i beleive this would allow u to run mac os 8.6 100% properly - theres a link here on the forums for the specific installer for the sawtooth g4 8.6 original installer.

this actually is intriguing me a bit now.. as 8.6 is really snappy, with a ghz cpu it would be REALLY fast!

personally i tend to trust the original specs + i dont like to waste my time messing around with hacking + trying other mac os roms in computers they werent meant to be used with. id rather use a sawtooth that i know 100% supports mac os 8.6!

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2016, 11:33:47 AM »
  It took a little longer than intended to get around to the 8.6 test, but I finally tried it.  (After tons of mysterious hell trying to get drives behaving on two B&W G3s that had been in storage.  One won't even chime any longer - grrrrrr... )  I used the 8.5.1-G3 version of the install CD to make a fresh copy on a new PATA SSD drive, then updated to 8.6 and cleaned up the extensions arrangement.  I also replaced the Multiprocessing CPU Plugins extension with the one I'd been using under OS 9.2.2 Universal on the intended target G4 MDD machine.  (In fact I was booting the G3 from the 9.2.2 drive from the MDD to speed up the installation process rather than boot directly from the 8.5.1 CD.)

* Note, the Multiprocessing extension version made no difference to what happened next.

  On both the B&W G3 and the MDD G4 the end result of trying to boot 8.6 with the much later Mac OS ROM file was exactly the same - moments after the OS splash screen appears it halts with an "unimplemented trap" error.  I was hardly surprised by this.  Perhaps you guys know better than I what was changed in the later ROM file to break it working in 8.6, but this implies a fix could be difficult.  It also implies though that booting 8.6 on the MDD isn't necessarily impossible.


B+W  machines can be especially wierd! compared to all the g3/g4's when it comes to errors.
i see u tried to install 8.5.1 - my first thought at reading that is that u could have been installing 8.5.1 onto a machine that required the original 8.6 installer.. when u get these implemented trap error messages to me that means that u are using the wrong restore/installer cd.. thats what ive seen.
for example i own a 450mhz B+W.. i tried to install 8.5.1 on that machine and got that ERROR. why?
because the last batch of B+W G3's ran specific 8.6 installers.. and are incompatible with the 8.5.1 installer due to some type of change.. probably on the motherboard level.

Quote
8.5.1 >>> Power Macintosh G3 300 (Blue & White)300 MHz  PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.5.1 + 8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 350 (Blue & White)350 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 400 (Blue & White)400 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 450 (Blue & White)450 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-1999.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/index-powermac-g3.html

everymac lists the 350mhz model as coming with both 8.5.1 + 8.6 restore discs
so i guess with that model theres no specific way to tell which one it supports properly

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2016, 12:03:45 PM »
the one u need looks like this: its green
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 12:15:41 PM by geforceg4 »

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2016, 12:48:40 PM »
...
sounds to me like the best thing to do for this situation is to get a Sawtooth G4 and then get a CPU Upgrade to 1ghz or higher, i beleive this would allow u to run mac os 8.6 100% properly - theres a link here on the forums for the specific installer for the sawtooth g4 8.6 original installer.
...
this actually is intriguing me a bit now.. as 8.6 is really snappy, with a ghz cpu it would be REALLY fast!
...

NO.
Most -if not all- G4 CPU upgrades won't work under 8.6.
7447, 7448 G4 doesn't work for sure. I have tried it by myself.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2016, 06:01:15 PM »
NO.
Most -if not all- G4 CPU upgrades won't work under 8.6.
7447, 7448 G4 doesn't work for sure. I have tried it by myself.

well then, lol, did you try dual 500 MHz PowerPC 7400 cpu?
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_server_g4/specs/macserver_g4_500_dp.html

on which machines did u try.. ??? theres only two possible new world rom machines (with built in firewire/usb ports) compatible with 8.6
the b+W + the sawtooth.. both require custom version of 8.6 to run it properly.

did u try on a g4 sawtooth, with mac os rom 2.5.1?
that is compatible with its own Custom version of 8.6? (from the custom cd that came with the first shipped sawtooths?)
if u tried with a Digital Audio or Quicksilver or MDD then OBVIOUSLY it wouldnt work because those machines cant run
8.6 regardless of cpu type


Offline ELN

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 212
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2016, 11:00:43 PM »
Mac OS 8.6, thanks to its new nanokernel, brought large improvements in multitasking and power management. *But* its AltiVec support was rubbish. From René Vega on comp.sys.mac.system, late 2001:

Quote
Michael wrote:
Quote
Hi. I'm trying to run OS 8.6 on my G4 350/PCI.

Don't. OS 8.6 was a really nice system, a sweet spot in the march of versions from 8.0 to 9.2.1, but it was not designed to run with Altivec. The nanokernel does not have the full Altivec support in it. This is why it crashes horribly the first time a VMX_unavail exception is taken. There have been some hacks floating around to enable the limited Altivec support that is in the kernel but it doesn't work correctly, especially with MP tasks or native interrupt handlers. In short you are looking at poor stability and the chance to punch a good sized hole in your file system. Who needs that?

Quote
1) What can I do to make this thing less creaky?

Install at least 9.0.

Quote
2)  Is there something I'm supposed to add to 8.6 to enable G4 functionality?

Yes, install 9.0.

Rene

With Mac OS 9.2.x you enjoy some brilliant Multiprocessing Services API and reliability improvements. If you can use it, I say use it.

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2016, 10:49:59 AM »
well then, lol, did you try dual 500 MHz PowerPC 7400 cpu?

I have tried a dual 7448 at 2.0 Ghz.  (... well, a 1.8 overclocked to 2.0)  :)

Quote
on which machines did u try.. ??? theres only two possible new world rom machines (with built in firewire/usb ports) compatible with 8.6
the b+W + the sawtooth..

I have made the test in a Sawtooth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6. With a very similar set of extensions, control panels etc...
In this way Mac os 9.2 performs as good as 8.6 and in some cases even better.
Any way, the differences -when exist- are as short as a 5%.

Quote
both require custom version of 8.6 to run it properly.
...
did u try on a g4 sawtooth, with mac os rom 2.5.1?
that is compatible with its own Custom version of 8.6? (from the custom cd that came with the first shipped sawtooths?)
Even though I have the "custom" 8.6 for the Sawtoth, I have only used the Mac Os ROM 2.5.1.
The versions of the remaining stuff  are irrelevant (System, Finder etc).

« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 11:53:35 AM by MacTron »
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2016, 05:07:19 PM »
My nostalgia for 8.6 was probably since I remember how great it ran at the time, Mostly G3s.  After viewing the facts here, I personally won't be wasting anymore time on this one (running 8.6 on a QS or MDD).  Looks like most of the leg work has already been done and that 9.2.2 is pretty much the pinnacle of the Classic Mac OS versions for the later machines.

Been a long time since I had a Beige G3, but I really loved 8.6 on that unit :)

As far as the a Powermac 9600, I would probably opt for 7.6 like Syntho for excellent MIDI timing
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2656.msg16500.html#msg16500

So many excellent combos :)

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2016, 09:19:26 PM »
  Can someone re-post the Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 file for download?  I need to put this on a drive so I can get a Sawtooth going on 8.6.  Hopefully someone can also upload or link the original G4 AGP OS 8.6 restore CD image for this machine so I can burn a copy.  It's not in our downloads section for machine-specific restore/install discs.

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2016, 06:38:49 PM »
  Can someone re-post the Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 file for download?  I need to put this on a drive so I can get a Sawtooth going on 8.6.  Hopefully someone can also upload or link the original G4 AGP OS 8.6 restore CD image for this machine so I can burn a copy.  It's not in our downloads section for machine-specific restore/install discs.

u dont need the rom just install frm the custom installer its been posted here http://www.mediafire.com/download/it4f1abmazcfupv/sawtooth_8.6_restore%26Install.zip

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2016, 11:50:54 PM »
  It took a little longer than intended to get around to the 8.6 test, but I finally tried it.  (After tons of mysterious hell trying to get drives behaving on two B&W G3s that had been in storage.  One won't even chime any longer - grrrrrr... )  I used the 8.5.1-G3 version of the install CD to make a fresh copy on a new PATA SSD drive, then updated to 8.6 and cleaned up the extensions arrangement.

  On both the B&W G3 and the MDD G4 the end result of trying to boot 8.6 with the much later Mac OS ROM file was exactly the same - moments after the OS splash screen appears it halts with an "unimplemented trap" error.  I was hardly surprised by this.  Perhaps you guys know better than I what was changed in the later ROM file to break it working in 8.6, but this implies a fix could be difficult.  It also implies though that booting 8.6 on the MDD isn't necessarily impossible.

its most likely that one or both of the g3s u tried to install it on were part of the last batch of B+W g3 machines that REQUIRE the custom installer of 8.6 made specifically for these machines to run mac os 8.6
http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PMG3_86.toast_.sit
this is the machine-specific installer for the last batch of B+W powermac g3's to be able to properly support + run mac os 8.6

the admins should really add this image to the downloads in the machine-specific section
"Model Specific Apple Restore CD/DVDs Disk Sets" http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/board,169.0.html
as this is the only image that will properly install + run mac os 8.6 on those B+W machines!

another thing i MUST inform you is that in my experience.. the g3 450mhz B+W machine that i had this problem with had an ATI 9200 pci graphics card.. i stil have the card the card works fine in osx in that machine + in other machines, but with 8.6 i absolutely had nothing but problems untill i replaced the video card back with the ORIGINAL SHIPPING video card for that machine which in that case + most cases i think is the ATI RAGE pci card im not sure which model/specs but most g3 B+W shipped with the same type of card i think - i may be wrong but in my experience the 9200 ati simply would NOT work 100% under mac os 8.6 it was a huge huge headache.. tons of reboots trying to get the 9200 mac drivers to work .. disabling extensions.. begging for help etc so if your g3 has a 9200 ati card in it.. that only works 100% under 9.2.2, under 9.0 or 8.6 its just neverending boot errors

looks like this:

do yourself a favour + use this card at least while installing the os rather then the "best card it can take, ati 9200 pci"

in summary...

the 300mhz B+W g3 needs the 8.5.1 installer
the 350mhz B+W g3 can run either 8.5.1 or 8.6 (according to everymac site)
the 400mhz + 450mhz B+W g3 both require this custom installer of 8.6 to run properly (http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PMG3_86.toast_.sit as linked above)

for the graphite g4's both the pci YIKES! + the agp SAWTOOTH! each require a DIFFERENT installer of a custom 8.6
these disk images should also be in that machine-model specific download section!!!!!!!!!!

the SAWTOOTH install restore discs are here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/calxk3ticozkv/1999_sawtoothG4 (including the os 9.0.2 special machine specific version)
the PCI yikes version is here: http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PowerMacG4CD_86.ZIP

« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 12:14:40 AM by geforceg4 »

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2016, 12:13:42 AM »
I have made the test in a Sawtooth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6. With a very similar set of extensions, control panels etc...
In this way Mac os 9.2 performs as good as 8.6 and in some cases even better.
Any way, the differences -when exist- are as short as a 5%.

that may be, but for some people, the whole reason to use 8.6 is not related to "Best Performance" scenario..
but rather "Software COMPATIBILITY" seeking to have the software simply WORK properly...
alot of software from 1996-1998 fits into this category and possibly some from 1990-1996 aswell

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2016, 08:33:09 AM »
Yes... I have some software that runs optimally on 8.6, but I have found replacements... mostly network client related stuff... and I also like 8.6 with Cubase 3.5 :)

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2016, 09:27:08 AM »
  Thanks for the links!  The Macintosh Garden link wouldn't load properly but I did eventually find the download.

  I downloaded and mounted the 8.6 G4 image on my Xserve, then with the Sawtooth booted into OS 9.2.2 I mounted the image over the network and copied the 2.5.1 ROM file.  This was all it took to get the machine to boot 8.6 from the drive I'd already installed to.  The only other thing I had to do was copy over the updated version of the Apple Enet extension in order to have the ethernet port show up.  I can still mount shares from the Xserve under 8.6 but it doesn't know how to log on as anything other than "Guest", which is fine for the way I have the sharing set up anyway.  I'm using a PCI Radeon 7000 at the moment which works except for the acceleration.

  Does anyone remember enough about 8.6 to tell me what other updates can be applied?  I'm speaking of things like video driver updates and carbon lib, Quicktime, Iomega and such.  It's been a while since I've actually fresh installed and updated an 8.6 system, so my memory is a bit fuzzy.  As it stands this G4 runs extremely fast and smooth on 8.6 so it is entirely usable for what I'd want.  That said, what was the best upgrade CPU that will work with this config?  There are some host-based processing elements of my DAw stuff that would benefit from the faster CPU.

  One final note - I'm actually typing this post from Classilla on this G4 under Mac OS 8.6!  It seems to be working just fine compared to the same system under 9.2.2.  Once I swap in an AGP video card with video acceleration working then it should be even better, mostly in terms of scrolling obviously.

Edit:

  I installed Carbon Lib 1.6 which allowed me to run StuffIt 7.0.3.  I also replaced all the stock ATI extensions with the last versions I'd had installed on 9.2.2, including the ATI Displays control panel, and it's all working with acceleration with the Radeon 7000 PCI.

@ELN - I've PM'd you about the MediaNet files.  Finally got them posted on DropBox.com so you should be able to download them now.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 10:27:08 AM by MacOS Plus »

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2016, 10:20:45 PM »
  Thanks for the links!  The Macintosh Garden link wouldn't load properly but I did eventually find the download.

  I downloaded and mounted the 8.6 G4 image on my Xserve, then with the Sawtooth booted into OS 9.2.2 I mounted the image over the network and copied the 2.5.1 ROM file.  This was all it took to get the machine to boot 8.6 from the drive I'd already installed to.  The only other thing I had to do was copy over the updated version of the Apple Enet extension in order to have the ethernet port show up.  I can still mount shares from the Xserve under 8.6 but it doesn't know how to log on as anything other than "Guest", which is fine for the way I have the sharing set up anyway.  I'm using a PCI Radeon 7000 at the moment which works except for the acceleration.

i think u would find that there are other differences besides just the rom file if u did a filecompare of the install vs the files on that disc
like i said its a CUSTOM tweaked install specifically by apple to run on that hardware.. especially tweaked for maximum performance of the sawtooth machine by apples engineers
take two sawtooths side by side + install the custom vs the generic and im pretty sure u will find teh responsiveness of the custom installation to be quite preferable
dare u to try it


Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 09:01:37 AM »
If I remember correctly, besides the ROM, there are almost no differences at all... such is the difference between macs and PCs :) No wierd drivers, no Windows registry, no headache.

Even within different PowerMacs, 95% of the Machine specific model OS in the same... as far as performance increase, that would be zero, the machine specific OS only addresses a few minor hardware drivers that are NOT in the "Universal Install"

Offline MacTron

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • keep it simple
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2016, 11:10:35 AM »
"Machine specific" system software is a myth in its main sense.
In the "old world era" this concept was used only to ensure that the proper set of extensions and control panels were installed on the proper mac model. To avoid that a "powerbook" control panel were installed on a desktop Mac, by example.
The other use was to "enable" a Mac Os System version in to run in a Mac model that was build  after such system version.
The more recent version of the system software usually includes the more recent and bug free components. But not always.
I  recommend to use The Sawtooth Mac Os 8.6 not only in the "machine specific Models" but in all machines you have with 8.6, because of this. And not recommend in to using Mac Os 9.0.x because is slow, and buggy as hell, even in to its "machine specific" versions, nor as upgrade to a 8.6 system.

Furthermore, my 8.6 install (inside my PM8600 ) contains components of other System versions "as usually".
If you really wish to have a fast, reliable and easy of troubleshooting System, choosing the best components is the way to go, ( despite its different system versions source ) ... and not such "machine specific" nonsense.
I'll attach a picture to compare my 9.2 and 8.6 extensions folders:



 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
... and yes, I was using Quicktime 6 in a 8.6 installation.
because it's the best QT version available for Mac Os 9 (and 8.6)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 01:01:35 PM by MacTron »
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2016, 11:26:42 AM »
Yes... as Mactron pointed out, the real strength of the Classic Mac OS is that it is modular !

Newer extensions with an older version... no problem.

Any OS that is "Modular" has very few "inter-dependencies" built in, thus building a stable system is easier :)

Try moving different versions of Windows System DLL (dynamic linked libraries) and you will end up with a blue-screening POS

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2016, 04:13:49 PM »
ok so who is going to do the filecompare to prove this once + for all??  :P

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2016, 05:08:33 PM »
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1834.msg8923.html#msg8923

whatever u do, dont try to use a radeon 7000 or radeon 9200 PCI card in a powermac running 8.6!!! see the quote in the linked post!

Offline ziggy29

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 28
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 05:14:26 PM »
Interesting thought about a Radeon 9200 in a Mac running 8.6.  I've been running an authentic Mac Edition Radeon 9200 PCI in my souped-up Power Mac 7600 (with Sonnet Crescendo G3/300) for a couple months now.  I've used everything from 7.6.1 to Tiger with it, and it has never had a problem or a glitch.  it has been rock solid. 

As far as I can tell graphics acceleration works on this card in 8.1 and above (7.6.1 doesn't load the extensions, but works fine without it).  But I do know this Mac loves 8.6 (I'm composing this with Classilla on that Mac running 8.6 as we speak).  I've never had the slightest bit of video instability.

Or do you mean specifically a Power Mac that wasn't designed to run 8.6?

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2016, 06:47:54 AM »
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4933414

well i was referring to using a radeon 7000 in a g3, but someone stated in that post that mac os 8.6 doesnt support the drivers for the radeon 9200.. because they were written for mac os 9.2.2 as far as i know... maybe the problem is specific to B+W g3 machines....?????

theres more than one version of the radeon 9200 pci..
maybe u can include an image of yours for those reading this thread? :)

it wasnt about video instability it was about 100% incompatibility, getting Error on boot up of extensions etc

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2016, 08:46:07 PM »
  Well, my Radeon 7000 PCI seems to be working completely fine in this configuration.  Obviously the ATI installer for the final available drivers can't run in 8.6, but that's why I copied them from an existing 9.2.2 drive.  I didn't test anything beyond accelerated 2D though, but that's all I need.  In the end this card will likely go into a B&W G3 though I'm through testing the Sawtooth.

Offline geforceg4

  • Vault Members
  • Platinum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 535
  • i did my time on mac os 9
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2016, 08:22:00 PM »
  Well, my Radeon 7000 PCI seems to be working completely fine in this configuration.  Obviously the ATI installer for the final available drivers can't run in 8.6, but that's why I copied them from an existing 9.2.2 drive.  I didn't test anything beyond accelerated 2D though, but that's all I need.  In the end this card will likely go into a B&W G3 though I'm through testing the Sawtooth.

consider yourself lucky because i had nothing but problems like i said.... i tried exactly that and it did not help me at all.. it seemed to work for a bit. but then errors happened... i cant remember the exact specifics but i do remember that i gave up trying after spending a few days rebooting + rebooing

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • www.oldschooldaw.com
    • www.oldschooldaw.com
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2018, 04:25:48 PM »
Yes... I have some software that runs optimally on 8.6, but I have found replacements... mostly network client related stuff... and I also like 8.6 with Cubase 3.5 :)

is that cd available anywhere?
Mac version of Cubase v3.5 ? i dont think i have a copy of that version.
does it only use serial num protection? or did they have a mac ADB dongle at that time?

Offline DieHard

  • Administrator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 10:59:32 PM »
Think we discussed this before, I have to search, but V3.x was floppy authorized and 4 moved to "Challenge" / "response" codes, 5 needs nothing, but our official toast image

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • www.oldschooldaw.com
    • www.oldschooldaw.com
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2018, 02:02:24 PM »
whats up with this sonic solutions medianet thing macos plus?
what is it? what do u use it for?

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2018, 03:57:09 PM »
whats up with this sonic solutions medianet thing macos plus?
what is it? what do u use it for?

  It's a combination of a SCSI accelerator and network server/client device that was intended back-in-tha-day to be used for high performance audio/video, broadcast and publishing applications.  By high performance I mean 100Mbit at a time when most computers had 10Mbit ethernet.  It has a fibre optic interface as an option, plus a copper equivalent like cat5 but with FDDI protocol based on a token ring architecture.  While it could run as a stand-alone entity, its primary target was integrated as a vast performance and feature enhancement add-on to the Sonic Solutions DAW hardware as an 'evolved' version of the earlier SonicNet.

  The problem I have with it is that there is an unresolved massive incompatibily between these cards and OS 9.  The Sonic Solutions DAW cards themselves work just fine under OS 9, but the capabilities and expandability of the system is dramatically reduced, including losing the ability to network multiple systems' audio disks.  When the Medianet extension loads the computer slows to a crawl for some reason.  It also no longer shows up as an available port in the AppleTalk selector, which is a necessity to function.

  I have a lot of this hardware and extensive sound libraries in the Sonic-native file/partion format.  My goal was to expand my host computer options and compatibility with other software/hardware by making Medianet work with OS 9.  Some of the Sonic DAW processing features are CPU- bound, so later hardware could also significantly speed up some routine functions.

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • www.oldschooldaw.com
    • www.oldschooldaw.com
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2018, 04:05:13 PM »
do u have any logos? brochures? old www urls? i can look at for further info on this mediaNet?

Offline MacOS Plus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 418
  • The 9serve Lives!
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2018, 04:26:35 PM »
do u have any logos? brochures? old www urls? i can look at for further info on this mediaNet?

  I will likely have to directly send you some material.  This product was already considered obsolete before common use of the web archive.  (Consider that its heyday was in the Nubus era.)  I'll see what I can arrange.  I have an original printed manual for it that I could scan and send you.

Offline macStuff

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
  • www.oldschooldaw.com
    • www.oldschooldaw.com
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2018, 05:32:31 PM »
iphone pics would be good enough for a quick glimpse + finding enough info to find more online about it
im just curious
because i think i remember hearing guys i worked at an ad agency with talking about it back when osx was brand new (2000)

Offline trag

  • Active Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • new to the forums
Re: Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2018, 02:05:19 PM »
  Well, my Radeon 7000 PCI seems to be working completely fine in this configuration.  Obviously the ATI installer for the final available drivers can't run in 8.6, but that's why I copied them from an existing 9.2.2 drive.

consider yourself lucky because i had nothing but problems like i said.... i tried exactly that and it did not help me at all.. it seemed to work for a bit. but then errors happened... i cant remember the exact specifics but i do remember that i gave up trying after spending a few days rebooting + rebooing

I tested the R7000 rather extensively with OS9 extensions back in the early 00's.   IIRC, I found that there was a compatibility problem with some version of QuickTime and the ATI drivers.   But with careful extensions management, it works fine.