Mac OS 8.6 on machines that require OS 9.x

[geforceg4]

  It took a little longer than intended to get around to the 8.6 test, but I finally tried it.  (After tons of mysterious hell trying to get drives behaving on two B&W G3s that had been in storage.  One won't even chime any longer - grrrrrr... )  I used the 8.5.1-G3 version of the install CD to make a fresh copy on a new PATA SSD drive, then updated to 8.6 and cleaned up the extensions arrangement.  I also replaced the Multiprocessing CPU Plugins extension with the one I'd been using under OS 9.2.2 Universal on the intended target G4 MDD machine.  (In fact I was booting the G3 from the 9.2.2 drive from the MDD to speed up the installation process rather than boot directly from the 8.5.1 CD.)

* Note, the Multiprocessing extension version made no difference to what happened next.

  On both the B&W G3 and the MDD G4 the end result of trying to boot 8.6 with the much later Mac OS ROM file was exactly the same - moments after the OS splash screen appears it halts with an "unimplemented trap" error.  I was hardly surprised by this.  Perhaps you guys know better than I what was changed in the later ROM file to break it working in 8.6, but this implies a fix could be difficult.  It also implies though that booting 8.6 on the MDD isn't necessarily impossible.

B+W  machines can be especially wierd! compared to all the g3/g4's when it comes to errors.
i see u tried to install 8.5.1 - my first thought at reading that is that u could have been installing 8.5.1 onto a machine that required the original 8.6 installer.. when u get these implemented trap error messages to me that means that u are using the wrong restore/installer cd.. thats what ive seen.
for example i own a 450mhz B+W.. i tried to install 8.5.1 on that machine and got that ERROR. why?
because the last batch of B+W G3's ran specific 8.6 installers.. and are incompatible with the 8.5.1 installer due to some type of change.. probably on the motherboard level.

8.5.1 >>> Power Macintosh G3 300 (Blue & White)300 MHz  PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.5.1 + 8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 350 (Blue & White)350 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 400 (Blue & White)400 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)
8.6 >>> Power Macintosh G3 450 (Blue & White)450 MHz PowerPC 750 (G3)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-1999.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/index-powermac-g3.html

everymac lists the 350mhz model as coming with both 8.5.1 + 8.6 restore discs
so i guess with that model theres no specific way to tell which one it supports properly

[geforceg4]

the one u need looks like this: its green

[MacTron]

...
sounds to me like the best thing to do for this situation is to get a Sawtooth G4 and then get a CPU Upgrade to 1ghz or higher, i beleive this would allow u to run mac os 8.6 100% properly - theres a link here on the forums for the specific installer for the sawtooth g4 8.6 original installer.
...
this actually is intriguing me a bit now.. as 8.6 is really snappy, with a ghz cpu it would be REALLY fast!
...

NO.
Most -if not all- G4 CPU upgrades won't work under 8.6.
7447, 7448 G4 doesn't work for sure. I have tried it by myself.

[geforceg4]

NO.
Most -if not all- G4 CPU upgrades won't work under 8.6.
7447, 7448 G4 doesn't work for sure. I have tried it by myself.

well then, lol, did you try dual 500 MHz PowerPC 7400 cpu?
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_server_g4/specs/macserver_g4_500_dp.html

on which machines did u try.. theres only two possible new world rom machines (with built in firewire/usb ports) compatible with 8.6
the b+W + the sawtooth.. both require custom version of 8.6 to run it properly.

did u try on a g4 sawtooth, with mac os rom 2.5.1?
that is compatible with its own Custom version of 8.6? (from the custom cd that came with the first shipped sawtooths?)
if u tried with a Digital Audio or Quicksilver or MDD then OBVIOUSLY it wouldnt work because those machines cant run
8.6 regardless of cpu type

[ELN]

Mac OS 8.6, thanks to its new nanokernel, brought large improvements in multitasking and power management. *But* its AltiVec support was rubbish. From René Vega on comp.sys.mac.system, late 2001:

Michael wrote:

Hi. I'm trying to run OS 8.6 on my G4 350/PCI.

Don't. OS 8.6 was a really nice system, a sweet spot in the march of versions from 8.0 to 9.2.1, but it was not designed to run with Altivec. The nanokernel does not have the full Altivec support in it. This is why it crashes horribly the first time a VMX_unavail exception is taken. There have been some hacks floating around to enable the limited Altivec support that is in the kernel but it doesn't work correctly, especially with MP tasks or native interrupt handlers. In short you are looking at poor stability and the chance to punch a good sized hole in your file system. Who needs that?

1) What can I do to make this thing less creaky?

Install at least 9.0.

2)  Is there something I'm supposed to add to 8.6 to enable G4 functionality?

Yes, install 9.0.

Rene

With Mac OS 9.2.x you enjoy some brilliant Multiprocessing Services API and reliability improvements. If you can use it, I say use it.

[MacTron]

well then, lol, did you try dual 500 MHz PowerPC 7400 cpu?

I have tried a dual 7448 at 2.0 Ghz.  (... well, a 1.8 overclocked to 2.0) 

on which machines did u try.. theres only two possible new world rom machines (with built in firewire/usb ports) compatible with 8.6
the b+W + the sawtooth..

I have made the test in a Sawtooth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6. With a very similar set of extensions, control panels etc...
In this way Mac os 9.2 performs as good as 8.6 and in some cases even better.
Any way, the differences -when exist- are as short as a 5%.

both require custom version of 8.6 to run it properly.
...
did u try on a g4 sawtooth, with mac os rom 2.5.1?
that is compatible with its own Custom version of 8.6? (from the custom cd that came with the first shipped sawtooths?)

Even though I have the "custom" 8.6 for the Sawtoth, I have only used the Mac Os ROM 2.5.1.
The versions of the remaining stuff  are irrelevant (System, Finder etc).

[DieHard]

My nostalgia for 8.6 was probably since I remember how great it ran at the time, Mostly G3s.  After viewing the facts here, I personally won't be wasting anymore time on this one (running 8.6 on a QS or MDD).  Looks like most of the leg work has already been done and that 9.2.2 is pretty much the pinnacle of the Classic Mac OS versions for the later machines.

Been a long time since I had a Beige G3, but I really loved 8.6 on that unit

As far as the a Powermac 9600, I would probably opt for 7.6 like Syntho for excellent MIDI timing
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2656.msg16500.html#msg16500

So many excellent combos

[MacOS Plus]

  Can someone re-post the Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 file for download?  I need to put this on a drive so I can get a Sawtooth going on 8.6.  Hopefully someone can also upload or link the original G4 AGP OS 8.6 restore CD image for this machine so I can burn a copy.  It's not in our downloads section for machine-specific restore/install discs.

[geforceg4]

  Can someone re-post the Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 file for download?  I need to put this on a drive so I can get a Sawtooth going on 8.6.  Hopefully someone can also upload or link the original G4 AGP OS 8.6 restore CD image for this machine so I can burn a copy.  It's not in our downloads section for machine-specific restore/install discs.

u dont need the rom just install frm the custom installer its been posted here http://www.mediafire.com/download/it4f1abmazcfupv/sawtooth_8.6_restore%26Install.zip

[geforceg4]

  It took a little longer than intended to get around to the 8.6 test, but I finally tried it.  (After tons of mysterious hell trying to get drives behaving on two B&W G3s that had been in storage.  One won't even chime any longer - grrrrrr... )  I used the 8.5.1-G3 version of the install CD to make a fresh copy on a new PATA SSD drive, then updated to 8.6 and cleaned up the extensions arrangement.

  On both the B&W G3 and the MDD G4 the end result of trying to boot 8.6 with the much later Mac OS ROM file was exactly the same - moments after the OS splash screen appears it halts with an "unimplemented trap" error.  I was hardly surprised by this.  Perhaps you guys know better than I what was changed in the later ROM file to break it working in 8.6, but this implies a fix could be difficult.  It also implies though that booting 8.6 on the MDD isn't necessarily impossible.

its most likely that one or both of the g3s u tried to install it on were part of the last batch of B+W g3 machines that REQUIRE the custom installer of 8.6 made specifically for these machines to run mac os 8.6
http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PMG3_86.toast_.sit
this is the machine-specific installer for the last batch of B+W powermac g3's to be able to properly support + run mac os 8.6

the admins should really add this image to the downloads in the machine-specific section
"Model Specific Apple Restore CD/DVDs Disk Sets" http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/board,169.0.html
as this is the only image that will properly install + run mac os 8.6 on those B+W machines!

another thing i MUST inform you is that in my experience.. the g3 450mhz B+W machine that i had this problem with had an ATI 9200 pci graphics card.. i stil have the card the card works fine in osx in that machine + in other machines, but with 8.6 i absolutely had nothing but problems untill i replaced the video card back with the ORIGINAL SHIPPING video card for that machine which in that case + most cases i think is the ATI RAGE pci card im not sure which model/specs but most g3 B+W shipped with the same type of card i think - i may be wrong but in my experience the 9200 ati simply would NOT work 100% under mac os 8.6 it was a huge huge headache.. tons of reboots trying to get the 9200 mac drivers to work .. disabling extensions.. begging for help etc so if your g3 has a 9200 ati card in it.. that only works 100% under 9.2.2, under 9.0 or 8.6 its just neverending boot errors

looks like this:

do yourself a favour + use this card at least while installing the os rather then the "best card it can take, ati 9200 pci"

in summary...

the 300mhz B+W g3 needs the 8.5.1 installer
the 350mhz B+W g3 can run either 8.5.1 or 8.6 (according to everymac site)
the 400mhz + 450mhz B+W g3 both require this custom installer of 8.6 to run properly (http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PMG3_86.toast_.sit as linked above)

for the graphite g4's both the pci YIKES! + the agp SAWTOOTH! each require a DIFFERENT installer of a custom 8.6
these disk images should also be in that machine-model specific download section!!!!!!!!!!

the SAWTOOTH install restore discs are here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/calxk3ticozkv/1999_sawtoothG4 (including the os 9.0.2 special machine specific version)
the PCI yikes version is here: http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PowerMacG4CD_86.ZIP

[geforceg4]

I have made the test in a Sawtooth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6. With a very similar set of extensions, control panels etc...
In this way Mac os 9.2 performs as good as 8.6 and in some cases even better.
Any way, the differences -when exist- are as short as a 5%.

that may be, but for some people, the whole reason to use 8.6 is not related to "Best Performance" scenario..
but rather "Software COMPATIBILITY" seeking to have the software simply WORK properly...
alot of software from 1996-1998 fits into this category and possibly some from 1990-1996 aswell

[DieHard]

Yes... I have some software that runs optimally on 8.6, but I have found replacements... mostly network client related stuff... and I also like 8.6 with Cubase 3.5

[MacOS Plus]

  Thanks for the links!  The Macintosh Garden link wouldn't load properly but I did eventually find the download.

  I downloaded and mounted the 8.6 G4 image on my Xserve, then with the Sawtooth booted into OS 9.2.2 I mounted the image over the network and copied the 2.5.1 ROM file.  This was all it took to get the machine to boot 8.6 from the drive I'd already installed to.  The only other thing I had to do was copy over the updated version of the Apple Enet extension in order to have the ethernet port show up.  I can still mount shares from the Xserve under 8.6 but it doesn't know how to log on as anything other than "Guest", which is fine for the way I have the sharing set up anyway.  I'm using a PCI Radeon 7000 at the moment which works except for the acceleration.

  Does anyone remember enough about 8.6 to tell me what other updates can be applied?  I'm speaking of things like video driver updates and carbon lib, Quicktime, Iomega and such.  It's been a while since I've actually fresh installed and updated an 8.6 system, so my memory is a bit fuzzy.  As it stands this G4 runs extremely fast and smooth on 8.6 so it is entirely usable for what I'd want.  That said, what was the best upgrade CPU that will work with this config?  There are some host-based processing elements of my DAw stuff that would benefit from the faster CPU.

  One final note - I'm actually typing this post from Classilla on this G4 under Mac OS 8.6!  It seems to be working just fine compared to the same system under 9.2.2.  Once I swap in an AGP video card with video acceleration working then it should be even better, mostly in terms of scrolling obviously.

Edit:

  I installed Carbon Lib 1.6 which allowed me to run StuffIt 7.0.3.  I also replaced all the stock ATI extensions with the last versions I'd had installed on 9.2.2, including the ATI Displays control panel, and it's all working with acceleration with the Radeon 7000 PCI.

@ELN - I've PM'd you about the MediaNet files.  Finally got them posted on DropBox.com so you should be able to download them now.

[geforceg4]

  Thanks for the links!  The Macintosh Garden link wouldn't load properly but I did eventually find the download.

  I downloaded and mounted the 8.6 G4 image on my Xserve, then with the Sawtooth booted into OS 9.2.2 I mounted the image over the network and copied the 2.5.1 ROM file.  This was all it took to get the machine to boot 8.6 from the drive I'd already installed to.  The only other thing I had to do was copy over the updated version of the Apple Enet extension in order to have the ethernet port show up.  I can still mount shares from the Xserve under 8.6 but it doesn't know how to log on as anything other than "Guest", which is fine for the way I have the sharing set up anyway.  I'm using a PCI Radeon 7000 at the moment which works except for the acceleration.

i think u would find that there are other differences besides just the rom file if u did a filecompare of the install vs the files on that disc
like i said its a CUSTOM tweaked install specifically by apple to run on that hardware.. especially tweaked for maximum performance of the sawtooth machine by apples engineers
take two sawtooths side by side + install the custom vs the generic and im pretty sure u will find teh responsiveness of the custom installation to be quite preferable
dare u to try it

[DieHard]

If I remember correctly, besides the ROM, there are almost no differences at all... such is the difference between macs and PCs No wierd drivers, no Windows registry, no headache.

Even within different PowerMacs, 95% of the Machine specific model OS in the same... as far as performance increase, that would be zero, the machine specific OS only addresses a few minor hardware drivers that are NOT in the "Universal Install"

[MacTron]

"Machine specific" system software is a myth in its main sense.
In the "old world era" this concept was used only to ensure that the proper set of extensions and control panels were installed on the proper mac model. To avoid that a "powerbook" control panel were installed on a desktop Mac, by example.
The other use was to "enable" a Mac Os System version in to run in a Mac model that was build  after such system version.
The more recent version of the system software usually includes the more recent and bug free components. But not always.
I  recommend to use The Sawtooth Mac Os 8.6 not only in the "machine specific Models" but in all machines you have with 8.6, because of this. And not recommend in to using Mac Os 9.0.x because is slow, and buggy as hell, even in to its "machine specific" versions, nor as upgrade to a 8.6 system.

Furthermore, my 8.6 install (inside my PM8600 ) contains components of other System versions "as usually".
If you really wish to have a fast, reliable and easy of troubleshooting System, choosing the best components is the way to go, ( despite its different system versions source ) ... and not such "machine specific" nonsense.
I'll attach a picture to compare my 9.2 and 8.6 extensions folders:



 
... and yes, I was using Quicktime 6 in a 8.6 installation.
because it's the best QT version available for Mac Os 9 (and 8.6)

[DieHard]

Yes... as Mactron pointed out, the real strength of the Classic Mac OS is that it is modular !

Newer extensions with an older version... no problem.

Any OS that is "Modular" has very few "inter-dependencies" built in, thus building a stable system is easier

Try moving different versions of Windows System DLL (dynamic linked libraries) and you will end up with a blue-screening POS

[geforceg4]

ok so who is going to do the filecompare to prove this once + for all?? 

[geforceg4]

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1834.msg8923.html#msg8923

whatever u do, dont try to use a radeon 7000 or radeon 9200 PCI card in a powermac running 8.6!!! see the quote in the linked post!

[ziggy29]

Interesting thought about a Radeon 9200 in a Mac running 8.6.  I've been running an authentic Mac Edition Radeon 9200 PCI in my souped-up Power Mac 7600 (with Sonnet Crescendo G3/300) for a couple months now.  I've used everything from 7.6.1 to Tiger with it, and it has never had a problem or a glitch.  it has been rock solid. 

As far as I can tell graphics acceleration works on this card in 8.1 and above (7.6.1 doesn't load the extensions, but works fine without it).  But I do know this Mac loves 8.6 (I'm composing this with Classilla on that Mac running 8.6 as we speak).  I've never had the slightest bit of video instability.

Or do you mean specifically a Power Mac that wasn't designed to run 8.6?