M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible

[DieHard]

Also remember to trash ALL Cubase Preferences, M-Audio Preferences, etc

[Mardeec]

Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?

I guess I thought Cubasis would be easier to install, use fewer resources, etc., but with such a strong recommendation for Cubase VST24, I'll use it instead of Cubasis. 

Thanks for your thoughts on ASIO and Sound Manager. I'll give it a try and post the results.

Marty

[GaryN]

Arrgh! This just got worser and worser.

I'm becoming more and more certain that the problem here is we just didn't have a proper / compatible ASIO driver. With the correct pieces of the puzzle, everything should have dropped / would have dropped right into place a long time ago.

This was all complicated by having to "translate" Windoze-speak to Mac-Speak, because just like you Marty, Cubasis was originally a Windoze app and was later ported to Mac. LoL ! What little info exists about this version (2.0) is is hard to find and confusing to boot! Then, adding ASIO to the mix …

I am having extreme deja-vu with this. ALL of what happened to you is exactly what happened to me (well, NOT the desktop lockup) when I first tried to combine Opcode StudioVision Pro with an M-Audio Delta 1010. The feedback, distortion and mostly just silence was resolved ONLY after I located and unsuccessfully tried at least 8 different ASIO drivers - some of which had the same names but acted totally differently - including different revisions of the same ones (supposedly). What drove ME mad was that I had previously had NO problems at all with a Delta 44!

This is one of those things that's not supposed to happen but does because even though there's a "standard" that everybody agrees to follow, there are just too damn many possible combinations and setups for everything to mesh 100% of the time. This is why there's tech support and more importantly, updates!

Trying to combine stuff from two slightly different time periods from an era in which product evolution was moving at an impossible pace… Stuff was new today, obsolete tomorrow and now it's all a giant pile of confusion in the rear-view mirror. This is one of the reasons OS9Lives! exists - to slowly and painfully sort it all out.

I think the odds are still fair that there's an ASIO driver that would work here - possibly an ASIO from a (as in was provided with) a different revision of Cubasis, or Cubase, or Nuendo.

You certainly gave it your (our) best shot! VST24 will be a better tool for you in the long run though, I'm sure.

Welcome to the club…you're initiated!

[Mardeec]

Gary, thanks for the historical perspective.  I'm downloading Cubase VST24 now and hope that it will solve the ASIO problem.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Marty

[MacTron]

This was all complicated by having to "translate" Windoze-speak to Mac-Speak, because just like you Marty, Cubasis was originally a Windoze app and was later ported to Mac. LoL ! What little info exists about this version (2.0) is is hard to find and confusing to boot! Then, adding ASIO to the mix …

Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?

Cubasis was released in several occasions as an entry level to the Cubase family : Cubasis ( 1995 ) , Cubasis AV ( 1996 ) and Cubasis VST ( 2001 )
Cubasis VST ( 2001 ) is a lightweight version of Cubase VST 5, and of course it have less features than Cubase VST 5 and Cubase VST 4, but it inherited some interesting features from Cubase VST 5 not present in to Cubase VST 4.
It shares with Cubase VST 4 to being from 5 to 10% faster than Cubase VST 5.
Furthermore, Cubasis lack the boring authorization process from the 4 and 5 full versions.
So in my opinion Cubasis it is a really interesting option in front of the VST 4 and VST 5 full versions of Cubase, depending on your needs.
Due to it's speed and simplicity, I use it to some projects, and for troubleshooting.  ( sharing the same VST folder than it's big brother! )

And of course it isn't a Window port, those usually smell bad even brand new.

[Mardeec]

I installed Cubase VST/24 and reinstalled the FW410 drivers and had some interesting results.  Here's what I did:

-reinstalled 9.2.2, just to be sure.

-installed Cubase VST/24..no problem.  I was able to play back the demo song through the iMac's audio outputs.

-I read all the MIDI sections of the Cubase VST/24 manual and didn't see anything that indicated OMS was a necessity, so I didn't install OMS.

-Installed the FW410 drivers, and here's where things got interesting.  I was able to open the FW410 "control panel," but on many of the inputs/outputs, the meters were showing activity, but I hadn't launched Cubase.  When I moved the faders, the meter levels didn't change. I atached some screen shots; Picture 1 through Picture 4 show the four tabs within the FW410 control panel.  When I connected a mic, I was unable to get any signal.

-I then connected the FW410 to the one Windows laptop I have with a built-in 4 pin Firewire port.  I had previously installed the XP driver, and it worked fine.  I connected a mic and could get input/output signals.  The attachments Windows 1 through 4 show the four tabs of the FW410 control panel within Windows XP (without the strange meter activity).

So, what does this all mean?  I was starting to think maybe the FW410 was damaged, but it's working ok in Windows.  ASIO seems to be out of equation, since the FW410 wasn't interacting with Cubase.  Maybe the drivers that supernova777 got from the Japanese M-Audio site are the problem?

In the little time I spent with Cubase VST24, it sure looks more complicated than Cubasis!

Thank to everyone for looking into this matter.  I think I'm at the point where I'm ready to give up on trying to get this FW410 to work with my iMAC, but it's fun to think about what else I could do with the iMac.  FM7 and Lounge Lizard look interesting...

Marty     

[Mardeec]

Can you see Picture 1 through 4?  I didn't think to change the format after I took the screenshot.  I'll repost if necessary.

[Jakl]

Have you installed the ASIO drivers for Cubase then opened Cubase and then opened the control panel from inside Cubase? Or did the FW410 drivers install the ASIO driver in the ASIO folder inside Cubase folder?(iMac)
From what you have mentioned you haven't even opened Cubase and tried it within Cubase.
Also What's does the sound control panel read?

[GaryN]

This just gets better and better…

OK… after again reviewing everything that's happened up to now, we may be finally getting a little closer to it.

Let's try some process of elimination:

1) The fact that the 410 works as it should with the laptop says that the 410 is good.
2) The fact that Cubase plays thru the built-in audio (and Cubasis did too, way back when) says the Mac basically is good.
3) The fact that the desktop insanity that was happening before has now gone away after the reinstallation or 9.2 and you can now launch the 410 Control Panel app probably means something (I have NO idea what) got messed up while you were hacking around but that's now gone, so good.

What's left?

The Control Panel indicating random signals coming from the Twilight Zone is trying to tell us something, so…

FIRST: Do this, in order.

With the Mac OFF, plug in the 410
Start up the Mac.
Launch "Apple System Profiler" under the apple menu.
Select "Devices and Volumes"
Look down the list; find the FireWire bus. See if it indicates the 410 (or "unknown device" or anything) is connected.

If it says "No devices are on this bus", go to the steps below.
If it says "M-Audio whatchamacallit" or "audio device" or anything similar, the culprit is probably #3 below, but you'll probably have to go through them in order anyway for lack of a better method

1. The 6-pin FireWire cable could be bad.
2. The FireWire port on the iMac could be bad.
3. The mysterious Japanese driver could be bad.
4. See 1, 2, and 3 above.

#1 is easy. Try another cable. Seriously. If you don't have one, unless you have a VOM and you can test each connection, spend a couple of bucks and get another one.

If the cable's bad, do a happy dance, if not go to #2.

#2 is harder. you need to try some other FireWire device which I'm guessing you don't have OR BETTER STILL, you need another FireWire-equipped Mac you can set up as a "target disk". (If you don't know what that is, look it up or ask me when and if you successfully borrow another Mac.)

#3 will be indicated as the culprit if #1 and #2 pass their tests. If it's a bad driver, we search the world and find a good one.

This is the home stretch… good luck!

[Mardeec]

Gary, I can’t thank you enough for going through all this stuff again.  I was ready to give up, but you inspired me to try once more. I'm sure it takes you a long time to read through this thread as it gets longer and longer.  Here’s what I did:

Shutdown the iMac, connected the FW410, turned on the FW410, and started the iMac.

Apple System Profiler: This seems to indicate that something is connected to the FW bus (see attached).

FW Cable: I have a VOM, but haven’t tested the cable yet, but I will as soon as figure out how to get a test lead into the plug…use a straight pin?

Another FW device: You’re right, I don’t have another FW device, and my only other Mac is a Classic II.  Offhand, I can’t think of anyone I know that has a FW equipped Mac, but I’ll start asking around.  This iMac has a DVD-ROM drive, so I was thinking of getting an FW external CD burner (if there are such things).

I started Cubase and was able to play the demo song through the iMac’s audio outputs.

Next step, I copied the M-Audio Firewire ASIO driver to the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubase (see attached).  I made sure Sound Manager was set to Input=Built-in and Output = Built-in (see attached).
In Cubase, when I tried to set the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire ASIO, I got this alert: “Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device.”  So I shut everything down and restarted.

After the restart, I was able to change the ASIO driver to M-Audio Firewire ASIO. I saw a popup when I tried to make this change (see attached). After the change, I could launch the FW410 control panel from within Cubase (see attached).  The FW410 control panel still shows the crazy meter activity, and there’s no audio coming from the FW410.  Adjusting faders and routing in the FW410 control panel had no effect. 

A few other things that may or may not be important:  The ReadMe file that came with the FW410 drivers (see attached) mentions that this version of the drivers supports the FW 410, Audiophile, and 1814.  The Extensions Manager shows specific entries for the FW410, Audiophile, and 1814 (see attached).  Early on I had tried disabling the Audiophile and 1814 extensions, but then the FW410 wasn’t recognized.

So, it seems we’re leaning towards #3 of finding a good driver, but probably need to be sure about the FW cable and the FW ports.  I work at Kansas State University, and I’ll ask the IT folks if they have some FW cables/devices tucked away somewhere that might help with this.

DieHard mentioned this some time ago, but maybe the easiest thing is to sell this FW410 and get an FW Audiophile.  I’m still not sure exactly what I want to do with this iMac, but I’m pretty sure I’d want MIDI, which the Audiophile has. 

Thanks again, Gary...I need to give you a break!  I’ll let you know about the cable and another FW device.

Marty

I assume you have a way to see the attached iMac screen shots, but let me know if it's a problem.  I don't have anything that will convert from .pict to .jpg or .png.  I tried an online converter, but it cut out half of the image!

[GaryN]

The plot thickens even more!

Cripes man, you work at a University. Screw the VOM. You should be able to come up with a FireWire cable (and a FW equipped Mac or a FireWire drive or a camera) if you just ask around.

What's missing here are the M-Audio instructions that tell which drivers / extensions are supposed to be installed for which interfaces. You may have a long try-and-restart-try-another-and-restart scenario in your future. You should definitely not have all of them enabled because one is likely to be interfering with another. Exactly which ones? That's where the missing instructions come in.

My best guess of what should work - top to bottom:

Audiophile: OFF
Audiophile Boot: OFF
Expert: Not sure, maybe ON
Family: probably ON
Helper: Probably for a specific Mac model, 50-50 OFF or ON
MIDI: Probably ON (may or may not want OMS as well - trial and error after you finally get audio)
SM Driver: OFF if using with ASIO; ON if using without ASIO  >>THIS IS IMPORTANT!<<
410: ON (duh)
410 Boot: ON (also duh)
Generic: Probably OFF - It's probably used for something else although it MAY just provide basic functionality by itself. Who knows?
Sportnexus: Probably OFF

Start with these, but without definitive instructions it's still trial and error, so you've still gotta test the cable and ports just to be sure.

Oh, and if you happen to find an IT person who's familiar with OS9, make him / her your new best friend!

[Mardeec]

Gary,

Thanks once again for your careful analysis of the situation.  There are a lot of options with which extensions are on/off, more than I can manage in a single setting, but I’ll try to work my way through all the possibilities as time allows.  Here's what I've done: 

Step 1. The SM driver seemed like a good place to start, so I turned off only that extension.  I also removed the SM ASIO driver from the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubase so that the only driver in the folder is “FW410 ASIO.”  When I re-booted, I still had the crazy meters in the FW410 control panel and no audio.

Step 2. Keeping the configuration from Step 1, I turned off the Audiophile and 1814 extensions, re-booted, and here’s where things got flaky.  When I started Cubase, I got a series of error messages:

- No ASIO Driver.
- Audio: Couldn’t create Native Audio Engine!
- There is no translator available for this audio information.

I clicked “OK” for each message and eventually Cubase started, but I wasn’t able to open Options/Audio Setup/System.

Step 3: I turned on Audiophile and 1814 extensions: Same error messages.  I saw the same error messages when I replaced the the ASIO Sound Manager in the Cubase ASIO Drivers folder, and again could not open Options/Audio Setup/System in Cubase.

Step 4: I went back and turned on the SM Driver in Extensions and got this error message: Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device. I could open Options/Audio Setup/System in Cubase, but If I tried to change the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire Audio Device, I this error message: Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device. 

At this point I noticed that each time I rebooted, the blue power LED on the FW410 is lit solid.  Usually, it blinks as the computer reboots, then stays on solid once the computer is running. 

Step 5: I tried removing the ASIO Sound Manager (again!) and rebooted, and got the same error messages as in Step 2.  I could start Cubase, but couldn’t open Options/Audio Setup/System.

At this point, things stopped making sense (or at least, I couldn’t make any sense of it), so it was time to stop.  The “Unable to find an FW device” error makes me wonder if there’s an issue with the cable or FW port, so I’ll contact folks in the IT dept. at KSU and see if they can help check those items. 

I wonder about the ReadMe file included with this version of the drivers.  If getting the device to work required turning off one or more extensions, wouldn’t the folks at M-Audio make a note of that in the ReadMe file? 

I appreciate all your help, but I certainly don’t want to take advantage of your good nature and keep pestering you with these long posts.  Let me see what help I can muster at the university, and I’ll let you know…

Marty 

[GaryN]

Marty, you need to go back to my post of Jan 9 and follow that procedure first. When you've got multiple unknowns, you have to eliminate them one by one until you find the culprit.

Verifying the FW cable and ports are first on my list because they're absolutely necessary and possible. Find a cable, find something FireWire to use as a tester and know that the hardware is functioning properly. Otherwise, you can juggle drivers 'till the cows come home and never know for certain if they're actually good or bad.

AGAIN:
The 410 works properly on another computer.
The crazy meters and the "unable to find" messages are telling you that data is not moving properly to and from the 410 on the Mac.
It's either a hardware or a software problem. My money is on the hardware.
You can find the resources needed to test the hardware on any college campus, and you work on one.
Step by step process of elimination is how you solve this.

Finally, having not seen the "read me" file, I'm in no position to speculate about that so I will anyway… It's very possible that ALL of the M-Audio extensions can live together and all be on without interfering with each other BUT this is legacy stuff and it's just as possible that all of it was just packed together during an "obsolete and now unsupported products" housekeeping chore by some unknown chump at M-Audio who didn't know crap about OS9 and nobody cared because after all, that old Mac OS stuff is ancient history anyway…right? Epson, for example, was notorious for packing literally dozens of separate printer drivers together in one file because somehow the system would find the one it needed and they're lazy schmucks.

I am sure that you absolutely DO NOT need ALL of them to operate any one device.

A primary rule to follow in OS9 to maintain your sanity in the long run is to keep your system folder and it's contents as unbloated and efficient as possible. Everything that's in the enabled extensions folder (that equals checked on in extensions manager, by the way) gets loaded into RAM at boot and takes up space. As I recall, you've got all of 384Mb. That doesn't give you much to waste.

The general rule with Mac OS9 extensions is use ONLY the ones you need and leave the rest disabled. Keep your system "lean and mean".

Now, go find a FireWire cable!

[Mardeec]

Gary, thanks for keeping me on track!  I was too tempted by the possibility that turning off that one magic extension would get everything to work.  I've got to make sure the hardware is ok first.

I've been able to track down a Firewire cable on campus, and I'll pick that up next week.  No luck with finding a Firewire device yet, but I have a few more places to check.

I noticed that when I connect the FW410 to a Windows laptop, the FW410 is recognized only through one of the FW ports on the FW410.  In other words, the FW410 has two FW ports, and it's recognized by Windows through only one of the ports.  I'll test this again with the iMac and the good port on FW410.

I have less time to devote to this project now, but I haven't given up and will keep plugging away.  Thanks for all your help and encouragement!

Marty

 

[Mardeec]

I tried a different Firewire cable, but still no audio and the FW410 control panel shows the same crazy meter activity.  On a good note, today I found the person on campus who has the stash of old FW devices - video cameras, recorders, etc.  We just need to work out the details of how to get his stuff together with my iMac, and that will let me test the FW ports on the iMac.

I haven't tried MIDI with the FW410, but would using it as a MIDI interface be another way to test the firewire ports on the iMac?  For example, is it worth trying to see if I can record a MIDI track from a drum machine in Cubase?         

[GaryN]

That's a thought. You need to know that all things OMS / MIDI are setup properly first. I imagine that successfully doing that and passing some MIDI would be as good a basic FireWire port test as anything else. Try it.

[DPessell]

I've been hesitant to weigh in until I had some success to report myself, but figure there may be something in my experience--same in some ways to Marty's, but different in others.

My setup:
Power Mac G4, AGP Graphics. I replaced the processor a few years back, but don't remember with what
System 9.2.2 (I have 2 hard drives; the other runs OS X)
Cubase VST/24 4.1
Factory reconditioned Firewire 410, all installation CDs included

When I first set everything up (per the supplied instructions) I launched Cubase to play a song I had recorded a few months ago, just to see how the monitoring worked. I got choppy, slow and clipped audio, only out of the powered monitors, but nothing from the headphones. Figuring I didn't read far enough ahead in the manual, I took the evening off and resolved to try again the next day.

Ever since, I have not gotten any sound out of monitor nor headphone. Now, I never had trouble launching the FW Control Panel (either from the control menu or launching from Cubase). But maybe I've been seeing the "crazy meters" issue--I didn't recognize it until one of my launches brought up no meter activity, and I realized that was normal.

While I haven't gotten output yet, I have confirmed input (mic through the front panel and audio enabled on an audio track got meter activity that corresponded to my voice).

I have been using this setup (minus the 410) since 2000. My previous interface was an Edirol UA-1A. Limiting and a bit glitchy, but serviceable. Monitoring was my big hangup--those features were key in my decision to get the FW410.

I'm ready to try a few more things (further reducing my active extensions per this thread, for one) ad will report further if I make progress. By the way, the CD offered 3 drivers for System 9--Audiophile, FW 410 and FW1814. None of these offered different performance from the other, so I've stuck with 410 ("M-Audio Firewire ASIO"). Could someone please send me a link instructing me how I can prepare an image of the driver installation disc for the group (or whatever)?

[GaryN]

Normally, I'd tell you to go through a multi-step process to image and then encode the image in binary to preserve the separate forks, but I'm pretty sure that's not necessary here. The drivers have no data forks, and the rest is PDF's and such…SO

Just launch "Disc Copy" from OS9 utilities. Under the Image menu is "Make Image from Disc" - couldn't be simpler. Disk Utility in OSX will do the same thing.

Actually, the most informative thing here is that you're having similar problems as Mardeec.  This is now beginning to smell like a relationship issue between M-Audio and Steinberg, more specifically between the M-Audio FireWire ASIO drivers and Cubase. If it's proven that's the problem, the only solution will probably be to change one - either the hardware or the software. It's really unlikely we'll get any help from either company.

You might try removing any/all other ASIO drivers from the Cubase ASIO folder. That sometimes causes problems.

Choppy, slow, clipped audio is often a sign of an incorrect buffer setting needing to be changed in the DAW, the interface control panel or both (?) I don't know which since I don't have that setup, but if there is an adjustment, it should be find-able. This could actually be a separate, simultaneous issue happening! Isn't this fun?

Any other informed opinions are welcomed…

[DPessell]

Success! Here's what it took:

Before reinstalling 9.2.2 Universal (http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd) I partitioned the desired hard drive into 2 (not because I thought it would help, just thought it would be nice to keep system & apps on one, music files on the other). Did that using the disk utility in OSX*. Followed many of DieHard's extension & control panel tweaks**.

The install went well. I updated the supplied QuickTime (5.x) to 6.03 (http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/quicktime-603).

I installed Cubase VST/24 5 (I own and had been using VST/24 4.1, but couldn't get it authorized). I used the install & instructions found here (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=839.0).

Here is where luck comes in--I stumbled across the thread that was discussing the benefits of duplicating the System folder to another drive (as backup or 2nd extension set). I moved it to my 2nd "Music" partition, then wondered what would happen if I installed the Firewire 410 drivers (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1933.msg11665#msg11665) to that 2nd partition?

The rest was standard procedure (restarts & turn-ons as recommended). When I launched the 410 app from the control panel, I got the panel as it should look (no "crazy meters"). Launching a file in Quick time revealed un-screwed up audio from both the monitors (from outputs 1&2) and the headphone (jack 1). Same in Cubase VST/24 5.

I hope this helps.

*[Because at this point, os9 had stopped launching due to an "illegal instruction.]
**[I think I re-checked some boxes out of desperation. It was late.]

[Mardeec]

Hi Gary,

I'm finally getting the time to get back to this project!  I was able to borrow a Sony "Digital HD Videocassette Recorder" that has a 6 pin Firewire connection and connect to my iMac.  When I checked the Apple System Profiler, it appears the recorder is recognized (see attached).  In case the attachment doesn't come through, here's what I see in the Profiler:

Firewire 2.8.7 -- fwa02d,10001 -- DVaudio

So, it looks like the Firewire ports on the iMac are ok, and the Firewire cable is  ok.  The FW 410 works ok under Windows, so is it reasonable to conclude that my mission is to focus on the driver software?

Dan, thanks for your input on this.  I'll have to study your approach more carefully, but on first read, it sounds like you created a partition and put the FW410 software in that partition, while OS 9 was in the other partition.  I'm still new to Macs (although Gary and others on this thread are giving me a good initiation), so it takes a while for things to sink in.  I wonder if we're using the same FW410 installation/driver software?  I'll have to check what I've used....

Marty