Author Topic: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible  (Read 10173 times)

Offline Mardeec

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M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« on: January 02, 2016, 02:23:43 PM »
I’m trying to get a Firewire 410 to work with Cubasis VST 2.0 on an iMac G3, OS 9.2.2. 500 Mhz, 384 Mb RAM, 10Gb HD.  The main problem is that the Control Panel is not visible.  It appears to launch, i.e., the menu is visible and it shows up in the Applications Menu, but the Control Panel doesn’t display.  Within the Control Panel menus, Edit and View are grayed out.

I installed the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4_b42” driver, which I obtained through Supernova777’s post (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1933.msg11665#msg11665) of  drivers he obtained through the M-Audio Japan site.  There is an OS9 driver for the Firewire 410 listed on the M-Audio US site, but it’s actually an OMS driver (OMS2_3_8.sit).

Within Cubasis, I copied “M-Audio Firewire ASIO” to the ASIO folder, and Options/Audio Setup/System has the ASIO device set to M-Audio Firewire ASIO.  Within the iMac Extension Manager, I set the Input to M-Audio Firewire Input (Device=M-Audio Firewire SM) and the Output to M-Audio Firewire SM.

I just installed 9.2.2 using the “Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install - ISO CD Image” and turned off extensions according to Die Hard’s “Extensions, Control Panels, and General Tweaks after Install” (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2765.0).  I installed the Firewire 410 driver, shutdown, then connected the Firewire 410 and rebooted.  I’m using 6 pin firewire cable and not using external power (although I have the AC adapter).  The Firewire 410 manual says NOT to use external power with 6 pin cable, but I've seen posts that say M-audio support told them to use both bus and external power. 

The Firewire 410 appears to connect (the blue LED is solid), but I’m not getting any sound when I play back the Cubasis demo song.  Cubasis runs fine if I use the iMac’s native audio in/out.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Marty

Offline DieHard

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 03:16:54 PM »
Hi Marty...

Can't remember if I used this ASIO driver with the 410... please try it (even though it says "audiophile FW") and let me know if it works...
https://www.adrive.com/public/DU239p/M-Audio%20Firewire%20Audiophile

Also, I would ALWAYS use the Ac adapter and NOT power by bus, this will take load off the MB regardless of what the manual says, and DON'T Hot swap M-Audio FW interfaces, connect BEFORE Mac power on
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 03:29:59 PM by DieHard »

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2016, 08:59:14 PM »
Within the iMac Extension Manager, I set the Input to M-Audio Firewire Input (Device=M-Audio Firewire SM) and the Output to M-Audio Firewire SM.

You set WHAT input and output to M-Audio Firewire SM? The Mac internal audio? You should leave the Mac system audio on Sound Manager because it can override any other app trying to use the Firewire audio.

Are the Firewire Enabler and Firewire Support system extensions loaded and checked on in Extensions Manager?

Also, if that's not the trick, if there is a Sound Manager ASIO driver in your Cubasis ASIO folder, try removing it temporarily so the only ASIO driver in there is the M-Audio.

DieHard has the other (last) resort started for you - that's where you locate, download and test every M-Audio driver even vaguely related to the 410 - including earlier and/or later versions of them.

The fact that you cannot get the Control Panel to display means it's not loading properly, is corrupt, has a conflict with something, or …?
Try booting with only 9.2.2 Base extensions + the M-Audio Control Panel + the above Firewires (if they're not in the base set)

STOP!! I started getting curious so I started looking. I may be crazy, but as far as I can tell:

There is not now nor has there ever been an OS9-or-below control panel for the Firewire 410 !

There appear to be 2 or 3 versions for 10.2, 10.3, and maybe 10.4, but none for the old Mac OS.
This includes both M-Audio sites (US and Japan) and the Driver Guide Database.
This would explain why the only thing found is OMS. That would take care of the MIDI part.
It's just possible that any parameter you need to change that can't be controlled from your DAW either doesn't get changed, or requires you to boot into OSX to change. It's just possible they never wrote an OS9 control panel for the damn thing - period!

Does anybody know better? Now would be the time to jump in.

FWIW, ALL parameters in my M-Audio Deltas that really need changing are controlled by my DAW. I have monitoring control panels but the Deltas don't have any external controls, so they're mandatory if you're working in-the-box only.

Monitoring / foldback may be limited to the controls on the 410. Sample rate and such should just follow Cubasis.

Again, I'm NOT the final authority by any means but unless somebody has a better theory…?

The stuff above at the top hopefully will contain the solution to getting the 410 to at least pass audio. The control panel or lack of one is a separate issue.

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 09:10:57 AM »
DieHard and Gary, thanks for looking into this issue.  I tried the driver DieHard suggested.  I did the install, shutdown, then connected the 410 using external power.

When I opened Cubasis, I got the message “Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device.”  Under Control Panels, there is a listing for “M-Audio FW Audiophile.app,” but when I try to open it I get the message “No Firewire Audiophile devices were found."

I think I’ll go back and do a clean install of the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4b42” driver and see how that goes.  I had tried another driver (for the Firewire 1814) provided by Supernova777, but I didn’t fully uninstall 1.0.4b42, so I’ll be more careful and try again.

You set WHAT input and output to M-Audio Firewire SM? The Mac internal audio? You should leave the Mac system audio on Sound Manager because it can override any other app trying to use the Firewire audio.

I’m sorry, I meant to say that in the Sound Control Panel, I made these settings:

Input = M-Audio Firewire Input
Output = M-Audio Firewire SM

Should I use other settings?

FWIW, the FW410 manual gives instructions for an OS9 install, but in the hours I’ve spent researching the 410, it seems to be plagued by driver problems in both Mac and Windows.  If I can’t get the audio going, I may end up using it just as a MIDI interface.

Thanks again for your help, and I’ll report back on what happens.  DieHard, thank you again for the 9.2.2 image.  I’m new to Macs, but that was an easy install on this old iMac.

Marty 

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2016, 01:43:50 PM »
I was able to get some audio, at least temporarily from the 410.  Here’s what I did:

Uninstall the M-audio Firewire drivers.  I had two: 1.0.4 from supernova777 and 1.0.2 from DieHard.
Uninstall Cubasis

I then reinstalled the M-audio Firewire 1.0.4 driver and Cubasis, in that order.  I copied “M-Audio Firewire ASIO” to the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubasis.  In the Apple Sound Control Panel, I set the input & ouput to the Firewire 410.  In Cubasis under Options/Audio Setup/System, I set the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire ASIO.

Opening a demo song in Cubasis, I was able to get some audio, but only from the line outputs.  No output from the headphone jacks.  The sound was horrible, with a constant high pitched whistle.  The output LEDs on the 410 were pegged, and adjusting the mixer in Cubasis had no effect.  I still was not able to launch the M-Audio Firewire control panel, either from within Cubasis or from the Apple Control Panels.

I tried rebooting with Base Extensions + the M-Audio extensions, and then I wasn’t able to get any sound at all.  In Cubasis, the ASIO Device setiting had reverted to "Apple Sound Manager," and when I changed it back to "M-Audio Firewire ASIO", still no sound. 

At this point, I noticed there was no M-Audio Control Panel listed Extensions Manager control panel.  Under Apple Menu/Control Panels, I see a listing for “M-Audio Firewire.app,” but there’s no M-Audio control panel shown in the Extensions Manager control panel.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to review this problem, but as Gary suggested, the only option may be trying various drivers.  The fact that M-Audio doesn’t list any OS9 audio drivers (only OMS), may be telling. 

Thanks again,

Marty

Offline DieHard

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2016, 03:18:31 PM »
Hmmm...

at this point if you are sticking with OS9 then getting a cheaper FW audiophile from ebay may do the trick; I know it will work perfectly with very good quality with the software I uploaded.  The 410 would obviously be the best choice for OSX with better tracking options, so you have to make a decision of which OS you are going to be using.  With a G3, I would use the FW audiophile in OS 9 and sell or pack away the 410;  if you cannot find a FW audiophile, I have at least 2 in mint condition in storage, if you need one, I can let one go for $60 plus shipping, just PM Me

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 04:00:50 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion re: using an FW Audiophile interface in place of the FW 410.  Does the FW Audiophile have a software control panel or is it controlled within the DAW?  I'll think this over and let you know if I'm interested in one of your FW Audiophiles.

Marty

Offline Jakl

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2016, 06:15:18 PM »
Hey Diehard what other gems do you still have in storage that we could buy?? Let us all know - thanks.

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2016, 06:40:44 PM »
I’m sorry, I meant to say that in the Sound Control Panel, I made these settings:

Input = M-Audio Firewire Input
Output = M-Audio Firewire SM

Should I use other settings?

YES! Read what I wrote carefully. In the Sound Control Panel, set the input and output to Sound Manager - NOT the 410. The Sound Control Panel controls the Mac system audio; as in beeps, buzzes and things that arrive via iTunes, browsers etc.

With it set to the 410, you've got the Mac system audio competing with Cubasis or whatever else has an ASIO driver for control of the ASIO "bus".

There can only be ONE customer at a time using the ASIO - PERIOD.


You want that to be Cubasis - nothing else.

After you change that, pull the "M-Audio Firewire.app" OUT of wherever it's at onto the desktop, double-click it and see if it opens. It just might be a stand-alone app. If it doesn't launch, report back exactly what error message you get.

NOTES:
I also said try with 9.2.2 Base extensions, the M-audio ones AND the Apple Firewire Enabler and Support extensions.
Without the Apple ones on, neither are your Firewire ports.

The whistle you heard was probably feedback from the mixed connections. The fact that some kind of audio actually made it through is a good sign!

Keep at it. If there was M-Audio OS9 support, you'd have this in an instant. Without it, you just have to work through the possibilities.

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 02:25:56 PM »
Gary,

I was encouraged by your last post, but now there’s a new problem: whenever the FW410 is connected, I’m not able to pull down menus or open folders.  I can move the cursor with the mouse, but if I click/double click on anything, nothing happens.  Without the FW 410 connected, I can open menus and folders as usual. 

Here’s what I’ve done:

YES! Read what I wrote carefully. In the Sound Control Panel, set the input and output to Sound Manager - NOT the 410. The Sound Control Panel controls the Mac system audio; as in beeps, buzzes and things that arrive via iTunes,

I finally understand!  This is just the opposite of Windows, so it took a while to sink in.  Within the Sound Control Panel, I don’t see a selection for “Sound Manager” per se, but I see these options:

Name                     Device
Built-in Mic             Built-in
CD                       Internal CD
External Mic             Built in
Internal Modem           Built-in
M-Audio FW Input         M-Audio FW SM
Sound in                 Built-in
None                     Built-in

I assume that any of the “Built-in” options would be under the control of Sound Manager, so I selected “None.”

After you change that, pull the "M-Audio Firewire.app" OUT of wherever it's at onto the desktop, double-click it and see if it opens. It just might be a stand-alone app. If it doesn't launch, report back exactly what error message you get.

I could get the “M-Audio Firewire.app” onto the desktop only when the FW410 was not connected.  When I double-clicked on it without the FW410 connected, I get a popup telling me to shutdown, connect the FW410, then reboot.

I also said try with 9.2.2 Base extensions, the M-audio ones AND the Apple Firewire Enabler and Support extensions.
Without the Apple ones on, neither are your Firewire ports.

Yup, I made sure I had Base extensions, all the M-Audio extensions, and the Apple Firewire Authoring Support, Firewire Enabler, and Firewire Support.

I had poked around with installing OMS 2.3.8, and didn’t really know what I was doing, so I uninstalled that.  I had also installed a game (Pong II, I guess to try to relieve the stress of trying to get the FW410 to work!), and I uninstalled that, but the problem with not being able to pull down menus or open folders persisted. 

At this point, would it be best to do a clean install of 9.2.2, Cubasis, and the M-Audio FW 410 drivers?  I can’t but think that something I did fooling around with OMS and Pong is causing the menu/folder problem.

BTW, the Read Me file for the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4b42” driver indicates it is for OS 9 and covers all the M-Audio FW interfaces (410, 1814, Audiophile).

Thanks for walking me through all this!  I was ready to give up, but now that I understand Sound Manager/ASIO better, it seems like it would work.

Marty

Offline Jakl

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 03:15:18 PM »
Maybe try installing OMS before the 410 driver - maybe a midi driver for the 410 might need to be placed into the OMS folder to allow midi syncing or driver may reference OMS in some way - just trial and error I guess.

Also, why not install Cubase VST24/4.1 Ive had great success with this version on a iMac G3 running at 400mhz even using >20 tracks. Cubase VST32/5.1 was slower.

So install Cubase VST24/4.1r2 then install OMS then install your drivers for the 410 and see how that goes - then let us know what happened.

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 10:08:11 PM »
Aaargh!!! Man, you have my honest sympathy! You've got one of the really great hair-pullers going there!

OK… You are (I think) getting closer. I'm just not sure to what…

For your purposes, Sound Manager = "built-in" = Sound Manager.

The chart you posted is as it should be except for "M-Audio FW Input >> M-Audio FW SM" There's something hinky there but I'm not exactly sure what it is. The label "M-Audio FW SM" is odd.

What's odder (odder?) though, is the new issue where connecting the 410 freezes the desktop. It reeks of some kind of data feedback loop.

I think it should say "M-Audio FW Input >>Cubasis ASIO" or something similar. You want stuff going IN to the 410 to come FROM Cubasis and that's thru ASIO.
 "M-Audio FW SM" might mean Sound Manager and there's your loop.

The part where:  "I could get the “M-Audio Firewire.app” onto the desktop only when the FW410 was not connected.  When I double-clicked on it without the FW410 connected, I get a popup telling me to shutdown, connect the FW410, then reboot."    sounds absolutely correct!(except for the struck-thru part)

It's saying what I suspected: It's NOT a control panel but rather a stand-alone App you launch to tweak the 410. It should probably go into the "Apple Menu Items" folder so it's always available right under the (duh) apple menu.

It wants you to connect the 410 so that when you next launch it, it will be able to "see" the 410 and adjust itself accordingly (remember, it's universal). The loop (or whatever it is) that starts when you plug it in is preventing this from happening though.

I think we might be down to the ASIO driver being the rat in the basement here.

Again, in your Cubasis ASIO folder there should be: ONE got-it-from-Steinberg ASIO driver. You just might have the wrong one of those.

Normally, you would think that the one that was with the Cubasis app when you downloaded it would be the right one BUT normally, you probably wouldn't have been using a Firewire 410 back in the day when Cubasis came out. You may have to trial-and-error your way through a few ASIOs.

Two questions:
1) Is this starting to feel more at home like Windoze yet?
2) You don't have anything else connected to a firewire port that you haven't mentioned do you? Well, do ya, punk? OK, I'm getting really silly now…

DieHard is the Steinberg guy and he's probably following this thread with great amusement…hiopefully

Got any different ASIO drivers DH?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 10:21:19 PM by GaryN »

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 10:38:17 PM »
JUST ONE MORE THING…

I just reviewed this entire saga from the top and my theory follows:

Keep your mind in Mac-land. This is NOT Windoze and it's becoming obvious that there is NO M-Audio FireWire driver like you're used to being required in Windoze. The 410 presents itself as a "FireWire" class-compliant device and as such, is handled by the Apple FireWire Enabler and Support extensions. Simple!

The only "drivers" needed are: The ASIO to get audio through that bus and in and out thru FireWire, and

OMS to handle the MIDI in and out.

I'm going to bed now. My head hurts…

Offline mrhappy

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 06:12:01 AM »

OK… You are (I think) getting closer. I'm just not sure to what…


I LOVE this line!!! ;D ;D ;D

Offline DieHard

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 09:46:39 AM »
Quote
The only "drivers" needed are: The ASIO to get audio through that bus and in and out thru FireWire, and

OMS to handle the MIDI in and out.

Well Yes... and No...  Most of the M-Audio interfaces still will need a type of "Control Panel" to change the interface settings as far as sample rate, output settings, clock changes, buffer size, etc. and in Cubase (even with the ASIO driver) the "Audio Settings" will most likely want you to launch the device control panel to make these changes; however, if you are leaving the factory defaults, the ASIO will be all you need to record and playback, so you are correct :) if no changes need to be made.

Lastly, many different brands of interfaces give the option to route the Mac OS system sound thru the interface... this is almost always a total nightmare with distortion... no volume control, odd behavior of app output, and the inability to balance the OS beeps and prompts with your studio audio sources... so I recommend across the board for ALL interfaces to skip this option (unless you are attempting a rare setup like using Proools free).  Simply buy a $2 cable with eight inch jack and route your system sound to a channel on you mixer or a separate set of $10 speakers, this will leave the Mac OS sound control panel unaltered which is how OS 9 likes it to be... in the long run, you will thank me :)

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 06:17:53 PM »
You guys are the best!  I may not have audio coming out of my FW 410 yet, but I am getting a total immersion orientation to sound and OS 9.  For someone who's used only Windows since what, 1992, this isn't coming easy, but I appreciate the thought, patience, and hours (especially Gary!) you've given to helping with this problem.  I have a Windows-based setup I'm happy with (Focusrite 6i6, Cubase LE4, Windows 7), but something about that iMac is drawing me in.  I was lucky to find MacOS 9 Lives and appreciate all the help you've given me so far.

At this point, I think I better start over with a fresh install of 9.2.2...who knows what damage I did before I came to you for help?  After that, I'll follow the install sequence Jakl recommended,   and use all the settings Gary suggested.  This might take me a day or two, but I'll let you know how it goes.  I'll keep better notes this time around so if this actually works, I can post a good summary in case some other poor soul wants to use a FW 410.

Marty


Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2016, 07:04:22 PM »
Well Yes... and No...  Most of the M-Audio interfaces still will need a type of "Control Panel" to change the interface settings as far as sample rate, output settings, clock changes, buffer size..........

Exactly. What I'm doing here is trying to clarify the differences between Windows drivers (where you needed a separate bit of software for practically every single thing you dared to plug into the computer) and a Mac where the FireWire just works (the way Mr. Jobs said). Also the M-Audio "control panel" is an app as opposed to a Control Panel that lives in the System Folder. Notice the difference in the way I capitalize those words.

Fortunately, we've yet to get into the part where we explain that some "Control Panels" are in fact, Apps that live in the Control Panel folder just because they get used like a Control Panel. All of this, which seems simple to the long-time Mac user, can quickly drive a former Windows user nuts and send them screaming into the streets how the Macintosh is ridiculously complicated, doesn't even have a "Start" menu and makes no sense at all! Reminded that elementary schools are loaded with easy-to-use Macs, they just have to de-program themselves form their established Windoze thinking patterns. Mardeec is doing this now and doing it very well!

Offline DieHard

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 08:25:37 AM »
Quote
I think I better start over with a fresh install of 9.2.2...who knows what damage I did before I came to you for help?  After that, I'll follow the install sequence Jakl recommended

One bonus with Mac OS9 is that once you get familiar with it's layout, there is no need to attack it like windows with a "fresh install", there is NO REGISTRY !  so "Fresh Installs" are rarely needed; simply delete the extensions that are related to the device or app. (you can sort the extensions by application so you can figure out what has to be deleted); same goes with added controls panels.  Also, simply deleting the specific applications "Preferences" under the System Folder / preferences is sometimes all you need to do and re-install the app.  OS 9 is modular by design (with no database/registry to worry about screwing up) and rarely needs the common windows approach of "Nuke everything and re-install from scratch"

From Gary
Quote
Fortunately, we've yet to get into the part where we explain that some "Control Panels" are in fact, Apps that live in the Control Panel folder just because they get used like a Control Panel. All of this, which seems simple to the long-time Mac user, can quickly drive a former Windows user nuts and send them screaming into the streets

OMG, that is a great point, similar to the "no registry concept"  In Mac OS, there is no "merging" of hardware specific modules being called references in a database/registry.  There is no 'Spagetti code" to get unraveled when you install things in the "wrong order".  Even the Hardware controls and just apps as Gary mentioned.  Again, a modular concept, where the OS and the extensions to it are separate and can be very easily separated at will, without the need to rebuild the whole thing.  Your OS 9 foundation is simply that, the ground level, laid is stone, and the other additions are modular

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 02:27:39 PM »
I guess I’m showing my Windows heritage by reaching for the OS clean install!  If you don’t think I need to re-install 9.2.2, I’ll give it a try.  As I understand it, to remove the FW410 and Cubasis installs, I should do this:

-Drag application folders to trash.
-Drag app related extensions and control panels to trash.
-Check for specific application Preferences under the System Folder / Preferences and drag to trash.

After that I’ll reinstall in this order:

1. Cubasis
2. OMS
3. FW410

Before I embark on this adventure, I have to ask about the Cubasis20.toast.bin file.  I downloaded it to my iMac and used StuffIt Expander to decode the downloaded file.  I then changed the .toast extension to .iso and used TransMac http://www.acutesystems.com/scrtm.htm  (on a Windows computer) to burn the CD.  Cubasis seemed to install ok, but just want to make sure that dipping into the Windows world didn’t cause problems. 

I’ve been re-reading the FW410 and Cubasis manuals, and came across this from the FW410 manual:

“Once the operating system loads, go to Control Panels, select Sound, then select the Output tab. Click on M-Audio FireWire 410 to select FireWire 410 as your default audio device.”

Does this make sense?  It goes against Gary’s advice to set Input and Output in the Sound Control Panel to “Built-in.”  The manual doesn’t say anything about the Input tab on the Sound Control Panel.

Jakl, if I can get this FW410 to work with Cubasis, I’ll give Cubase VST24/4.1 a try.

Thanks to you all for your continuing help with this problem!

Marty

Offline Jakl

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 04:35:41 PM »
With reference to;

I’ve been re-reading the FW410 and Cubasis manuals, and came across this from the FW410 manual:
“Once the operating system loads, go to Control Panels, select Sound, then select the Output tab. Click on M-Audio FireWire 410 to select FireWire 410 as your default audio device.”
Does this make sense?  It goes against Gary’s advice to set Input and Output in the Sound Control Panel to “Built-in.”  The manual doesn’t say anything about the Input tab on the Sound Control Panel.


Many companies that make audio interfaces for macos9 had drivers for the apple soundmanager and ASIO. Most of the time if they were used together (for system sounds + running an audio application through ASIO) they would conflict with each other - I think it had something to do with reaching for the same extension at once - who knows?
So releasing the apple soundmanager driver before using the ASIO driver - IOW selecting built-in to input and output in the sound control panel before say starting up Cubasis ASIO audio may work better.
Now I have never used a FW410 so I couldn't say whether it works in Cubasis + Soundmanager together. You'll have to try it out yourself. Try releasing the Soundmanager driver(Sound Control Panel to built-in) and see if the ASIO driver works in Cubasis. Let the Forum know the results for your trials.

Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?

Offline DieHard

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 04:44:56 PM »
Also remember to trash ALL Cubase Preferences, M-Audio Preferences, etc


Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 07:13:20 PM »
Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?

I guess I thought Cubasis would be easier to install, use fewer resources, etc., but with such a strong recommendation for Cubase VST24, I'll use it instead of Cubasis. 

Thanks for your thoughts on ASIO and Sound Manager. I'll give it a try and post the results.

Marty

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 07:37:22 PM »
Arrgh! This just got worser and worser.

I'm becoming more and more certain that the problem here is we just didn't have a proper / compatible ASIO driver. With the correct pieces of the puzzle, everything should have dropped / would have dropped right into place a long time ago.

This was all complicated by having to "translate" Windoze-speak to Mac-Speak, because just like you Marty, Cubasis was originally a Windoze app and was later ported to Mac. LoL ! What little info exists about this version (2.0) is is hard to find and confusing to boot! Then, adding ASIO to the mix …

I am having extreme deja-vu with this. ALL of what happened to you is exactly what happened to me (well, NOT the desktop lockup) when I first tried to combine Opcode StudioVision Pro with an M-Audio Delta 1010. The feedback, distortion and mostly just silence was resolved ONLY after I located and unsuccessfully tried at least 8 different ASIO drivers - some of which had the same names but acted totally differently - including different revisions of the same ones (supposedly). What drove ME mad was that I had previously had NO problems at all with a Delta 44!

This is one of those things that's not supposed to happen but does because even though there's a "standard" that everybody agrees to follow, there are just too damn many possible combinations and setups for everything to mesh 100% of the time. This is why there's tech support and more importantly, updates!

Trying to combine stuff from two slightly different time periods from an era in which product evolution was moving at an impossible pace… Stuff was new today, obsolete tomorrow and now it's all a giant pile of confusion in the rear-view mirror. This is one of the reasons OS9Lives! exists - to slowly and painfully sort it all out.

I think the odds are still fair that there's an ASIO driver that would work here - possibly an ASIO from a (as in was provided with) a different revision of Cubasis, or Cubase, or Nuendo.

You certainly gave it your (our) best shot! VST24 will be a better tool for you in the long run though, I'm sure.

Welcome to the club…you're initiated!

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2016, 07:30:18 AM »
Gary, thanks for the historical perspective.  I'm downloading Cubase VST24 now and hope that it will solve the ASIO problem.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Marty









Offline MacTron

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 12:52:56 PM »

This was all complicated by having to "translate" Windoze-speak to Mac-Speak, because just like you Marty, Cubasis was originally a Windoze app and was later ported to Mac. LoL ! What little info exists about this version (2.0) is is hard to find and confusing to boot! Then, adding ASIO to the mix …

Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?

Cubasis was released in several occasions as an entry level to the Cubase family : Cubasis ( 1995 ) , Cubasis AV ( 1996 ) and Cubasis VST ( 2001 )
Cubasis VST ( 2001 ) is a lightweight version of Cubase VST 5, and of course it have less features than Cubase VST 5 and Cubase VST 4, but it inherited some interesting features from Cubase VST 5 not present in to Cubase VST 4.
It shares with Cubase VST 4 to being from 5 to 10% faster than Cubase VST 5.
Furthermore, Cubasis lack the boring authorization process from the 4 and 5 full versions.
So in my opinion Cubasis it is a really interesting option in front of the VST 4 and VST 5 full versions of Cubase, depending on your needs.
Due to it's speed and simplicity, I use it to some projects, and for troubleshooting.  ( sharing the same VST folder than it's big brother! )

And of course it isn't a Window port, those usually smell bad even brand new.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2016, 05:51:26 PM »
I installed Cubase VST/24 and reinstalled the FW410 drivers and had some interesting results.  Here's what I did:

-reinstalled 9.2.2, just to be sure.

-installed Cubase VST/24..no problem.  I was able to play back the demo song through the iMac's audio outputs.

-I read all the MIDI sections of the Cubase VST/24 manual and didn't see anything that indicated OMS was a necessity, so I didn't install OMS.

-Installed the FW410 drivers, and here's where things got interesting.  I was able to open the FW410 "control panel," but on many of the inputs/outputs, the meters were showing activity, but I hadn't launched Cubase.  When I moved the faders, the meter levels didn't change. I atached some screen shots; Picture 1 through Picture 4 show the four tabs within the FW410 control panel.  When I connected a mic, I was unable to get any signal.

-I then connected the FW410 to the one Windows laptop I have with a built-in 4 pin Firewire port.  I had previously installed the XP driver, and it worked fine.  I connected a mic and could get input/output signals.  The attachments Windows 1 through 4 show the four tabs of the FW410 control panel within Windows XP (without the strange meter activity).

So, what does this all mean?  I was starting to think maybe the FW410 was damaged, but it's working ok in Windows.  ASIO seems to be out of equation, since the FW410 wasn't interacting with Cubase.  Maybe the drivers that supernova777 got from the Japanese M-Audio site are the problem?

In the little time I spent with Cubase VST24, it sure looks more complicated than Cubasis!

Thank to everyone for looking into this matter.  I think I'm at the point where I'm ready to give up on trying to get this FW410 to work with my iMAC, but it's fun to think about what else I could do with the iMac.  FM7 and Lounge Lizard look interesting...

Marty     


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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2016, 06:00:48 PM »
Can you see Picture 1 through 4?  I didn't think to change the format after I took the screenshot.  I'll repost if necessary.


Offline Jakl

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2016, 09:45:14 PM »
Have you installed the ASIO drivers for Cubase then opened Cubase and then opened the control panel from inside Cubase? Or did the FW410 drivers install the ASIO driver in the ASIO folder inside Cubase folder?(iMac)
From what you have mentioned you haven't even opened Cubase and tried it within Cubase.
Also What's does the sound control panel read?

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2016, 10:25:41 PM »
This just gets better and better…

OK… after again reviewing everything that's happened up to now, we may be finally getting a little closer to it.

Let's try some process of elimination:

1) The fact that the 410 works as it should with the laptop says that the 410 is good.
2) The fact that Cubase plays thru the built-in audio (and Cubasis did too, way back when) says the Mac basically is good.
3) The fact that the desktop insanity that was happening before has now gone away after the reinstallation or 9.2 and you can now launch the 410 Control Panel app probably means something (I have NO idea what) got messed up while you were hacking around but that's now gone, so good.

What's left?

The Control Panel indicating random signals coming from the Twilight Zone is trying to tell us something, so…

FIRST: Do this, in order.

With the Mac OFF, plug in the 410
Start up the Mac.
Launch "Apple System Profiler" under the apple menu.
Select "Devices and Volumes"
Look down the list; find the FireWire bus. See if it indicates the 410 (or "unknown device" or anything) is connected.

If it says "No devices are on this bus", go to the steps below.
If it says "M-Audio whatchamacallit" or "audio device" or anything similar, the culprit is probably #3 below, but you'll probably have to go through them in order anyway for lack of a better method

1. The 6-pin FireWire cable could be bad.
2. The FireWire port on the iMac could be bad.
3. The mysterious Japanese driver could be bad.
4. See 1, 2, and 3 above.

#1 is easy. Try another cable. Seriously. If you don't have one, unless you have a VOM and you can test each connection, spend a couple of bucks and get another one.

If the cable's bad, do a happy dance, if not go to #2.

#2 is harder. you need to try some other FireWire device which I'm guessing you don't have OR BETTER STILL, you need another FireWire-equipped Mac you can set up as a "target disk". (If you don't know what that is, look it up or ask me when and if you successfully borrow another Mac.)

#3 will be indicated as the culprit if #1 and #2 pass their tests. If it's a bad driver, we search the world and find a good one.

This is the home stretch… good luck!

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2016, 01:11:58 PM »
Gary, I can’t thank you enough for going through all this stuff again.  I was ready to give up, but you inspired me to try once more. I'm sure it takes you a long time to read through this thread as it gets longer and longer.  Here’s what I did:

Shutdown the iMac, connected the FW410, turned on the FW410, and started the iMac.

Apple System Profiler: This seems to indicate that something is connected to the FW bus (see attached).

FW Cable: I have a VOM, but haven’t tested the cable yet, but I will as soon as figure out how to get a test lead into the plug…use a straight pin?

Another FW device: You’re right, I don’t have another FW device, and my only other Mac is a Classic II.  Offhand, I can’t think of anyone I know that has a FW equipped Mac, but I’ll start asking around.  This iMac has a DVD-ROM drive, so I was thinking of getting an FW external CD burner (if there are such things).

I started Cubase and was able to play the demo song through the iMac’s audio outputs.

Next step, I copied the M-Audio Firewire ASIO driver to the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubase (see attached).  I made sure Sound Manager was set to Input=Built-in and Output = Built-in (see attached).
In Cubase, when I tried to set the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire ASIO, I got this alert: “Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device.”  So I shut everything down and restarted.

After the restart, I was able to change the ASIO driver to M-Audio Firewire ASIO. I saw a popup when I tried to make this change (see attached). After the change, I could launch the FW410 control panel from within Cubase (see attached).  The FW410 control panel still shows the crazy meter activity, and there’s no audio coming from the FW410.  Adjusting faders and routing in the FW410 control panel had no effect. 

A few other things that may or may not be important:  The ReadMe file that came with the FW410 drivers (see attached) mentions that this version of the drivers supports the FW 410, Audiophile, and 1814.  The Extensions Manager shows specific entries for the FW410, Audiophile, and 1814 (see attached).  Early on I had tried disabling the Audiophile and 1814 extensions, but then the FW410 wasn’t recognized.

So, it seems we’re leaning towards #3 of finding a good driver, but probably need to be sure about the FW cable and the FW ports.  I work at Kansas State University, and I’ll ask the IT folks if they have some FW cables/devices tucked away somewhere that might help with this.

DieHard mentioned this some time ago, but maybe the easiest thing is to sell this FW410 and get an FW Audiophile.  I’m still not sure exactly what I want to do with this iMac, but I’m pretty sure I’d want MIDI, which the Audiophile has. 

Thanks again, Gary...I need to give you a break!  I’ll let you know about the cable and another FW device.

Marty

I assume you have a way to see the attached iMac screen shots, but let me know if it's a problem.  I don't have anything that will convert from .pict to .jpg or .png.  I tried an online converter, but it cut out half of the image!

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2016, 04:15:19 PM »
The plot thickens even more!

Cripes man, you work at a University. Screw the VOM. You should be able to come up with a FireWire cable (and a FW equipped Mac or a FireWire drive or a camera) if you just ask around.

What's missing here are the M-Audio instructions that tell which drivers / extensions are supposed to be installed for which interfaces. You may have a long try-and-restart-try-another-and-restart scenario in your future. You should definitely not have all of them enabled because one is likely to be interfering with another. Exactly which ones? That's where the missing instructions come in.

My best guess of what should work - top to bottom:

Audiophile: OFF
Audiophile Boot: OFF
Expert: Not sure, maybe ON
Family: probably ON
Helper: Probably for a specific Mac model, 50-50 OFF or ON
MIDI: Probably ON (may or may not want OMS as well - trial and error after you finally get audio)
SM Driver: OFF if using with ASIO; ON if using without ASIO  >>THIS IS IMPORTANT!<<
410: ON (duh)
410 Boot: ON (also duh)
Generic: Probably OFF - It's probably used for something else although it MAY just provide basic functionality by itself. Who knows?
Sportnexus: Probably OFF

Start with these, but without definitive instructions it's still trial and error, so you've still gotta test the cable and ports just to be sure.

Oh, and if you happen to find an IT person who's familiar with OS9, make him / her your new best friend!

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2016, 09:42:02 AM »
Gary,

Thanks once again for your careful analysis of the situation.  There are a lot of options with which extensions are on/off, more than I can manage in a single setting, but I’ll try to work my way through all the possibilities as time allows.  Here's what I've done: 

Step 1. The SM driver seemed like a good place to start, so I turned off only that extension.  I also removed the SM ASIO driver from the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubase so that the only driver in the folder is “FW410 ASIO.”  When I re-booted, I still had the crazy meters in the FW410 control panel and no audio.

Step 2. Keeping the configuration from Step 1, I turned off the Audiophile and 1814 extensions, re-booted, and here’s where things got flaky.  When I started Cubase, I got a series of error messages:

- No ASIO Driver.
- Audio: Couldn’t create Native Audio Engine!
- There is no translator available for this audio information.

I clicked “OK” for each message and eventually Cubase started, but I wasn’t able to open Options/Audio Setup/System.

Step 3: I turned on Audiophile and 1814 extensions: Same error messages.  I saw the same error messages when I replaced the the ASIO Sound Manager in the Cubase ASIO Drivers folder, and again could not open Options/Audio Setup/System in Cubase.

Step 4: I went back and turned on the SM Driver in Extensions and got this error message: Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device. I could open Options/Audio Setup/System in Cubase, but If I tried to change the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire Audio Device, I this error message: Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device. 

At this point I noticed that each time I rebooted, the blue power LED on the FW410 is lit solid.  Usually, it blinks as the computer reboots, then stays on solid once the computer is running. 

Step 5: I tried removing the ASIO Sound Manager (again!) and rebooted, and got the same error messages as in Step 2.  I could start Cubase, but couldn’t open Options/Audio Setup/System.

At this point, things stopped making sense (or at least, I couldn’t make any sense of it), so it was time to stop.  The “Unable to find an FW device” error makes me wonder if there’s an issue with the cable or FW port, so I’ll contact folks in the IT dept. at KSU and see if they can help check those items. 

I wonder about the ReadMe file included with this version of the drivers.  If getting the device to work required turning off one or more extensions, wouldn’t the folks at M-Audio make a note of that in the ReadMe file? 

I appreciate all your help, but I certainly don’t want to take advantage of your good nature and keep pestering you with these long posts.  Let me see what help I can muster at the university, and I’ll let you know…

Marty 

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2016, 03:10:38 PM »
Marty, you need to go back to my post of Jan 9 and follow that procedure first. When you've got multiple unknowns, you have to eliminate them one by one until you find the culprit.

Verifying the FW cable and ports are first on my list because they're absolutely necessary and possible. Find a cable, find something FireWire to use as a tester and know that the hardware is functioning properly. Otherwise, you can juggle drivers 'till the cows come home and never know for certain if they're actually good or bad.

AGAIN:
The 410 works properly on another computer.
The crazy meters and the "unable to find" messages are telling you that data is not moving properly to and from the 410 on the Mac.
It's either a hardware or a software problem. My money is on the hardware.
You can find the resources needed to test the hardware on any college campus, and you work on one.
Step by step process of elimination is how you solve this.

Finally, having not seen the "read me" file, I'm in no position to speculate about that so I will anyway… It's very possible that ALL of the M-Audio extensions can live together and all be on without interfering with each other BUT this is legacy stuff and it's just as possible that all of it was just packed together during an "obsolete and now unsupported products" housekeeping chore by some unknown chump at M-Audio who didn't know crap about OS9 and nobody cared because after all, that old Mac OS stuff is ancient history anyway…right? Epson, for example, was notorious for packing literally dozens of separate printer drivers together in one file because somehow the system would find the one it needed and they're lazy schmucks.

I am sure that you absolutely DO NOT need ALL of them to operate any one device.

A primary rule to follow in OS9 to maintain your sanity in the long run is to keep your system folder and it's contents as unbloated and efficient as possible. Everything that's in the enabled extensions folder (that equals checked on in extensions manager, by the way) gets loaded into RAM at boot and takes up space. As I recall, you've got all of 384Mb. That doesn't give you much to waste.

The general rule with Mac OS9 extensions is use ONLY the ones you need and leave the rest disabled. Keep your system "lean and mean".

Now, go find a FireWire cable!

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2016, 09:28:41 AM »
Gary, thanks for keeping me on track!  I was too tempted by the possibility that turning off that one magic extension would get everything to work.  I've got to make sure the hardware is ok first.

I've been able to track down a Firewire cable on campus, and I'll pick that up next week.  No luck with finding a Firewire device yet, but I have a few more places to check.

I noticed that when I connect the FW410 to a Windows laptop, the FW410 is recognized only through one of the FW ports on the FW410.  In other words, the FW410 has two FW ports, and it's recognized by Windows through only one of the ports.  I'll test this again with the iMac and the good port on FW410.

I have less time to devote to this project now, but I haven't given up and will keep plugging away.  Thanks for all your help and encouragement!

Marty

 

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2016, 01:50:18 PM »
I tried a different Firewire cable, but still no audio and the FW410 control panel shows the same crazy meter activity.  On a good note, today I found the person on campus who has the stash of old FW devices - video cameras, recorders, etc.  We just need to work out the details of how to get his stuff together with my iMac, and that will let me test the FW ports on the iMac.

I haven't tried MIDI with the FW410, but would using it as a MIDI interface be another way to test the firewire ports on the iMac?  For example, is it worth trying to see if I can record a MIDI track from a drum machine in Cubase?         

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2016, 02:36:08 PM »
That's a thought. You need to know that all things OMS / MIDI are setup properly first. I imagine that successfully doing that and passing some MIDI would be as good a basic FireWire port test as anything else. Try it.

Offline DPessell

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2016, 08:23:55 AM »
I've been hesitant to weigh in until I had some success to report myself, but figure there may be something in my experience--same in some ways to Marty's, but different in others.

My setup:
Power Mac G4, AGP Graphics. I replaced the processor a few years back, but don't remember with what
System 9.2.2 (I have 2 hard drives; the other runs OS X)
Cubase VST/24 4.1
Factory reconditioned Firewire 410, all installation CDs included

When I first set everything up (per the supplied instructions) I launched Cubase to play a song I had recorded a few months ago, just to see how the monitoring worked. I got choppy, slow and clipped audio, only out of the powered monitors, but nothing from the headphones. Figuring I didn't read far enough ahead in the manual, I took the evening off and resolved to try again the next day.

Ever since, I have not gotten any sound out of monitor nor headphone. Now, I never had trouble launching the FW Control Panel (either from the control menu or launching from Cubase). But maybe I've been seeing the "crazy meters" issue--I didn't recognize it until one of my launches brought up no meter activity, and I realized that was normal.

While I haven't gotten output yet, I have confirmed input (mic through the front panel and audio enabled on an audio track got meter activity that corresponded to my voice).

I have been using this setup (minus the 410) since 2000. My previous interface was an Edirol UA-1A. Limiting and a bit glitchy, but serviceable. Monitoring was my big hangup--those features were key in my decision to get the FW410.

I'm ready to try a few more things (further reducing my active extensions per this thread, for one) ad will report further if I make progress. By the way, the CD offered 3 drivers for System 9--Audiophile, FW 410 and FW1814. None of these offered different performance from the other, so I've stuck with 410 ("M-Audio Firewire ASIO"). Could someone please send me a link instructing me how I can prepare an image of the driver installation disc for the group (or whatever)?
Dan Pessell, singer/songwriter/recording musician

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2016, 04:50:04 PM »
Normally, I'd tell you to go through a multi-step process to image and then encode the image in binary to preserve the separate forks, but I'm pretty sure that's not necessary here. The drivers have no data forks, and the rest is PDF's and such…SO

Just launch "Disc Copy" from OS9 utilities. Under the Image menu is "Make Image from Disc" - couldn't be simpler. Disk Utility in OSX will do the same thing.

Actually, the most informative thing here is that you're having similar problems as Mardeec.  This is now beginning to smell like a relationship issue between M-Audio and Steinberg, more specifically between the M-Audio FireWire ASIO drivers and Cubase. If it's proven that's the problem, the only solution will probably be to change one - either the hardware or the software. It's really unlikely we'll get any help from either company.

You might try removing any/all other ASIO drivers from the Cubase ASIO folder. That sometimes causes problems.

Choppy, slow, clipped audio is often a sign of an incorrect buffer setting needing to be changed in the DAW, the interface control panel or both (?) I don't know which since I don't have that setup, but if there is an adjustment, it should be find-able. This could actually be a separate, simultaneous issue happening! Isn't this fun?

Any other informed opinions are welcomed…

Offline DPessell

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2016, 09:36:44 AM »
Success! Here's what it took:

Before reinstalling 9.2.2 Universal (http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd) I partitioned the desired hard drive into 2 (not because I thought it would help, just thought it would be nice to keep system & apps on one, music files on the other). Did that using the disk utility in OSX*. Followed many of DieHard's extension & control panel tweaks**.

The install went well. I updated the supplied QuickTime (5.x) to 6.03 (http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/quicktime-603).

I installed Cubase VST/24 5 (I own and had been using VST/24 4.1, but couldn't get it authorized). I used the install & instructions found here (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=839.0).

Here is where luck comes in--I stumbled across the thread that was discussing the benefits of duplicating the System folder to another drive (as backup or 2nd extension set). I moved it to my 2nd "Music" partition, then wondered what would happen if I installed the Firewire 410 drivers (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1933.msg11665#msg11665) to that 2nd partition?

The rest was standard procedure (restarts & turn-ons as recommended). When I launched the 410 app from the control panel, I got the panel as it should look (no "crazy meters"). Launching a file in Quick time revealed un-screwed up audio from both the monitors (from outputs 1&2) and the headphone (jack 1). Same in Cubase VST/24 5.

I hope this helps.

*[Because at this point, os9 had stopped launching due to an "illegal instruction.]
**[I think I re-checked some boxes out of desperation. It was late.]
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:11:02 AM by DPessell »
Dan Pessell, singer/songwriter/recording musician

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2016, 02:46:29 PM »
Hi Gary,

I'm finally getting the time to get back to this project!  I was able to borrow a Sony "Digital HD Videocassette Recorder" that has a 6 pin Firewire connection and connect to my iMac.  When I checked the Apple System Profiler, it appears the recorder is recognized (see attached).  In case the attachment doesn't come through, here's what I see in the Profiler:

Firewire 2.8.7 -- fwa02d,10001 -- DVaudio

So, it looks like the Firewire ports on the iMac are ok, and the Firewire cable is  ok.  The FW 410 works ok under Windows, so is it reasonable to conclude that my mission is to focus on the driver software?

Dan, thanks for your input on this.  I'll have to study your approach more carefully, but on first read, it sounds like you created a partition and put the FW410 software in that partition, while OS 9 was in the other partition.  I'm still new to Macs (although Gary and others on this thread are giving me a good initiation), so it takes a while for things to sink in.  I wonder if we're using the same FW410 installation/driver software?  I'll have to check what I've used....

Marty

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2016, 03:29:33 PM »
Hooray! Everything you said is correct! Wde're finally making progress. The FW port and cable has been confirmed, the interface has been confirmed and you've gotten lucky. You've got a kindred spirit who has actually solved the same problem!

Here's what I think:

1) Check with Dan. Get a copy of his proven-to-work driver and try it…my guess is it still won't work BUT you'll then know that the driver is guaranteed good along with everything else.

2) Start back at "Extensions 101" again. I suspect the reason Dan's setup works from one volume and not the other is that something is either present OR missing in the System Folder that doesn't work. This is the original Mac OS pain in the ass. Either a Cubase extension that should be present is missing OR more likely an extension that doesn't need to be there is causing a conflict. This kind of crap is usually found only through trial and error, along with a LOT of restarts and aggravation.

HOWEVER…

We can now compare the contents of Dan's System Extension Folder that doesn't work with the contents of the one that does work with the contents of yours.

First, try again with Dan's driver installed and startup with only OS9 base extensions AND any / all Apple extensions that have "FW" or "Firewire" in the name (especially "Firewire Enabler" - get it?) active (hold your breath during startup). Maybe you'll finally get lucky. Holler back with the lists from Dan's and yours if it still won't cooperate.

Good luck!

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2016, 01:37:59 PM »
Gary, Dan,

I've been sidelined with some weird bronchial infection, but I'm back to normal now and ready to try again.  Gary, thanks for the outline of next steps.  Dan, can you send me the FW410 driver you're using?  I know you were trying to make a CD image of the FW 410 installation disk and share it with the list, so I'll check and see if that's in the download section.

Dan, would you also be able to send me the contents of your System Extension Folders for both the volume that works and the one that doesn't work?  Maybe the easiest way to do this is to get the list from your Extensions Managers (?).  I won't need the actual files, but just the lists of extensions that are active/not active so I can compare to my extensions.

Thanks for your continuing help with this! 

Marty

Offline DPessell

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2016, 09:20:11 AM »
Hi guys. Marty, just sent the following to your email (edited to remove redundancies):

"Hi Marty,
I ultimately ended up installing DieHard's setup, so my active extensions reflect whatever he recommended (except for my specific video card). Attached are screen grabs of my extensions--hope you can view them.

... [a combination of] operating my extensions from a separate partition than the DAW [and this set of active extensions may be what did it]. It might not work for you, but I hope it does. The FireWire 410 is awesome (I'm about 4 or 5 drafts into my next album)."
Dan Pessell, singer/songwriter/recording musician

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2016, 01:50:59 PM »
I’m getting sound in and out of the FW410, but it’s terrible (scratchy, clicky, very low output, consistent high end whistle, etc.).    Here’s what I did:

Reinsalled 9.2.2 and installed Cubasis VST 2.0. I went with Cubasis VST 2.0, rather than Cubase because I like its simplicity and MacTron thought it was a good program (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2976.msg18976.html#msg18976).

Dan confirmed a copy of the System Folder in a separate partition wasn’t necessary, so I kept everything in one partition.

In Extensions Manager, I’m using the Apple Base Extensions plus all the M-Audio FireWire extensions and the Apple FireWire Extensions (which are included in the Base Extensions).

Dan sent me a screen capture of the Extensions Manager in his set up, and I disabled all the extensions that were disabled or not present in Dan’s setup:

ATI Setup
ATI MPP Manager
Control Strip Extension
Print Monitor
Speakable Items
Speech Manager
USB Auhoring Support

I was getting some display error messages (not enough colors), so I re-enabled the ATI Setup and MPP Manager extensions, and the error messages went away.

In the Sound Control panel, inputs and outputs are set to “Built In” (not “M-Audio FireWire SM”).

Installed OMS 2.3.8.  I haven’t tested any MIDI devices, but the “My Studio Setup” in the M-Audio Firewire 1.0.4 folder shows the M-Audio FW 410.

Dan sent me the FW410 drivers he used.  I downloaded the file directly to my iMac, expanded it, and ran the install program (FWUni_OS9_1.0.4_b42_install).  I copied the M-Audio ASIO to Cubasis ASIO drivers folder.

In Cubasis, under Audio System Setup, the ASIO Device is set to “M-Audio FireWire ASIO.” 

The M-Audio FireWire Control Panel/App opens, but I still have the “crazy meters,” and they don’t reflect the actual input/output.  I can move the faders and change routing, but it has no effect on the output.  I tried different values (512 to 1024) for the ASIO buffer size, but this had no effect on sound quality.  Whenever I open the FW control panel, playback in Cubasis stops.

On the FW410 there are LEDs that show output activity for each of the 8 analog outputs. On playback, all 8 LEDs are be lit, even if output is set within Cubasis to outputs 1 and 2.  I’m getting the same output and sound quality from all 8 FW410 outputs.  Changing the routing with the M-Audio FireWire Control Panel has no effect.

The “About” page in the FW 410 control panel seems to be missing some information, e.g., the bootloader and firmware fields are blank (see attached).  When I use the FW410 with Windows, these fields are populated.

The FW410 has two FW ports.  Only one works, i.e., if I use the other port, I get a message the FW 410 is not detected.  Perhaps this indicates a problem with the hardware that is the root of my problems.  The FW410 manual warns of the dangers of “hot plugging,” so I wonder if this unit is damaged.  But, it does work (one FW port only) under Windows.

I’ve learned so much about Macs and OS9, and I want to thank everyone, especially Gary and Dan, who spent hours, I’m sure, pouring over the details of my problems.  I appreciate all your help, but it’s time to stop pestering you and give up on this particular FW410.  Months ago DieHard reported good results with a FW Audiophile, so I think I’ll give that a try.

Marty

Offline Mardeec

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2016, 03:01:55 PM »
I picked up a Firewire Audiophile cheap on eBay, and it came with the M-Audio Driver CD.  The CD contained a different FW410 driver (Firewire 410 v1.0.1 build 3), so I gave it a try.  Still had the same problem with audio quality, and in the M-Audio FW 410 control panel, *all* the meters were pegged.  On the "About" tab, the bootloader and firmware fields are still blank.  I guess this just confirms that the FW410 unit I have is defective.

The CD didn't actually contain a driver for the Audiophile, but provided only a link to the M-audio web site!  I used the driver Dan and I used on the FW410 (FWUni_OS9_1.0.4_b42_install) and that's working fine.

Offline geforceg4

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2016, 03:42:12 PM »
did u try a different firewire cable??
of a different brand or length or thickness etc

Offline geforceg4

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2016, 01:25:11 AM »
just wondering why in the course of this thread noone thought to post the firewire 410 driver for other users?

Offline teroyk

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2017, 03:39:33 AM »
I buy secondhand Firewire 410 and It has same kind problems. I afraid that newer Mac OS X and Windows driver update firmware that its not compatible with OS 9. Control Panel cannot show firmware number on OS 9, but can in OS X 10.3 and it works well in OS X.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2017, 03:17:40 PM »
The bottom line is that the FW410 is not OS9 compatible.

Many of the M-Audio units from the time of OSX transition are similar. the OS9 drivers they would require were simply never written.
The complications arise because M-Audio lit and website info doesn't make that clear at all.

Offline IIO

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2017, 10:02:42 PM »
The bottom line is that the FW410 is not OS9 compatible.

the minimum requirement was MacOS 9.2 and it came bundled with OMS and Arkoas VJ, so there should also be an ASIO driver and a device driver.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2017, 10:47:47 PM »
the web has lost it, but the 110 has it.

the universal one should be enough.


https://www.macintoshrepository.org/9571-m-audio-firewire-drivers-macos-9-


« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 11:08:26 PM by IIO »
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2017, 10:53:55 PM »
once more the upload of attachements fails.

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2017, 04:52:48 PM »
Good luck. I hope it works. Hell, I might even buy one for my TiBook if it does.

Offline teroyk

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 01:26:19 AM »
As I said: some firmware update makes that OS 9 compatible device to not OS 9 compatible.
I have original installer CD with OS 9 drivers and it doesn't work anymore although it works with OS X and I think user before me used it with Windows 7.
I also tested also with those newer drivers. It seems that sample protocol has changed somehow in newer firmware, you can record and silence is silence and maximum is maximum, but it lost every second sample and some how that data is added without sign to next sample.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline IIO

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Re: M-Audio Firewire 410 Control Panel Not Visible
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 07:05:32 AM »
hm, maybe we can find out how to reset the device or reimplement the odler firmware. otoh, if you want to use it in OSX too that would cause a new problem :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com