Digital scan back/Keyspan Twin serial modem adaptor/help??

[nickmt]

Dear OS9 users.  I posted this once before, but have been super busy w/work while trying to get the G4 working, and didn't respond quickly enough to a generous response I received from one of you, and now the response has disappeared from my posts. I'm really sorry... So here it is again:

I'm trying to run an older digital scan back that is cabled to a proprietary mini computer that is then tethered via SCSI cable to my G4 running OS9.2. This is the proper set up and OS for this (DicoLite) camera and its software. The G4's hard drive is where the camera software is kept.  I've never used this used camera system before, but I've been on the phone, many times, with it's manufacturer (the man himself). And we've done extensive trouble shooting.  We found upon turning on the mini computer that it's internal hard drive was shot.  I replaced the internal hard drive, and now the mini computer starts up and makes all the appropriate sounds, including sounds coming from the scan back itself, readying itself in the scan position.  What I've not done yet is initialize this new hard drive.  To do so Diagnostic software needs to be sent from the G4 to the mini computer via serial modem adapter, not the SCSI.  As per instructions from the camera manufacturer, and because the G4 has no serial ports, a USB serial adaptor must be used to communicate with the mini computer, and the USB to serial modem adaptor to use is called a Keyspan Twin serial adaptor, which has a USB male end that goes into the G4, and then two female serial ports.  Port #2 is the proper port to use for emulating a modem adaptor, and that setting is accessed in the Keyspan Twin control panel on the G4.  The Keyspan is then attached to the mini computer via serial cable (a male serial plug on one end going into the Keyspan, and a 6 pin D connector on the other end going into the mini computer). This cable looks fine, as does the accepting female 6 pin plug, and it's wiring in the mini computer.  The Keyspan Twin I have is from ebay, unopened in new packaging.  Buyt its a very old Keyspan Twin.  Not the latested 28xg.  Not even the 28x.  It's just called the 28.  But Tripplite, the company that now manages Keyspan products "believes" it should work if it's not broken..  I've been trying it with the driver they recommend, and again the driver is visible, and set up properly to emulate modem port in its control panel.  I've also tried to configure the G4 so it doesn't try and use a modem port for anything else, but this is confusing to me. 

My problem is that the G4 is not able to communicate with mini computer to initialize mini's hard drive. I don't know if it's the G4 or the Keyspan Twin/serial cable. The sequence is: open diagnostic software on G4, which displays a diagnostic window that shows status and other info including voltage.  Then the mini computer gets turned on, and the Diagnostic window is supposed to see the mini computer, and display "not ready".  Then I'm supposed to begin initialization.  But no matter what I do, in terms of trouble shooting hardware and software, the Diagnostic window never says "not ready".  It also doesn't recognize voltage used by mini computer in it's voltage  window.  The G4 is It is not communicating with mini.

Perhaps the Keyspan Twin is no good.  Although this is the second Keyspan Twin I've tried....

Perhaps something else is trying to use the modem function.  I am honestly confused by modem function. As said I have the Keyspan control panel set up for port #2 to "emulate modem port", and everything is plugged in correctly.  I've gone through extensions manager, and turned off everything that says modem, or seems like it could effect that.  I also know that Appletalk is set to connect via ethernet not modem.

Any other ideas how I should trouble shoot further?

I also see at my local micro computer center they sell a USB to 6 pin D connector serial converter that says it can connect a modem type device to a usb.  Maybe that's worth a try (only $20).


Thanks SOoooo much,

Nick

[MacTron]

Those USB to serial adapters not always fulfill the whole of uses of a real serial port.

http://www.geethree.com/stealth/

But may be a software issue also, perhaps some serial protocol extension is missing...

[supernova777]

honestly id say its probably the usb/serial adapter i have seen otehr posts with people having trouble with this exact device it seems to be problematic

i would say u need a true serial port; the top 2 choices being:

geethree stealth
http://www.geethree.com/stealth/install/Compatible.html

griffin gport
http://www.dmandp.com/cab/griffin/products/gport/

both might be sold out.. u need to find 2nd hand  most likely!
u might just as easy look for another mac that has a serial port like a 9600 or something
or a beige g3

[nickmt]

Dear OS9 users.  I posted this once before, but didn't respond quickly enough to a generous response I received from one of you, and now the response has disappeared from my posts.  I tried reposting, but that didn't seem to work, so here it:

I'm trying to run an older 4x5 digital scan back camera that is cabled to a mini computer called a Dicolite, tethered via SCSI cable (for imaging), and also via serial cable, via Keyspan Twin Serial adapter (for running diagnostic software only) to my G4, running OS9.2. This is the proper set up for the DicoLite mini computer.  It's controller software works from the G4.  I've never used this used camera system before, it's new to me, but it's what I want, and I've been on the phone, many times, and emailing continually with Mike, it's designer/engineer, a great guy. We've done extensive trouble shooting, but the G4 is not communicating with the DicoLite.  Specifically,  I had to first replace the Dicolite's hard drive, which I did no problem. Now it starts up and sounds good.  But now I need to run the diagnostic software via the usb/serial adapter, emulating a modem port, in order to initialize the new hard drive. I'm using a Keyspan Twin serial adaptor, as per instructions.  It USB plugs into the G4, and as two serial ports at the other end. The #2 port gets serial cabled directly to the Dicolite, which is the proper port for emulating a modem adaptor.  I have set its permissions to operate that way, as per instructions, in the Keyspan Twin control panel on the G4.  All cabling and hardware looks good. I also checked the serial wiring inside the Dicolite.  The Keyspan twin is an older model # 28.  Not the latest 28xg, or even the 28x. I can't find documentation on the 28 at all,  but Tripplite, the company that now manages Keyspan products, believes it should work, if not broken. I got it seemingly new, in an unopened box, from ebay.  I installed the driver Tripplite recommend. The driver is visible, and set up properly to emulate modem port in the control panel, as I said.  I've tried to configure the G4 so it doesn't use another modem port for anything else, but this is confusing to me.  I've turned off anything in the control panels, and extensions manager that seems modem related, except for the Keyspan of course.  I even physically disconnected the G4's internal modem, but have been told that if there is a bit of logic that wants to use the internal modem it doesn't matter if it's unplugged, the logic may still ignore the keyspan.  That's basically the symptom I'm experiencing.  When I open diagnostic software on G4 to display a diagnostic window showing Dicolite/mini computer status, and Dicolite voltage, and then turn on the DicoLite, the Diagnostic window should immediately acknowledge to the Dicolite as "not ready".  It does not.   I've also tried it with the Dicolite powered on first, and then opening up the software. But the official way is software first, then Dicolite.  Nothing works.  I need the diagnostic software to recognize the Dicolite in order to begin initialization of the hard drive.  It doesn't see the Dicolite at all.  Also in the voltage window it says zero, indicating no communication, with the Dicolite, which is on and drawing power (I can hear the hd spinning, and see the fan going.)

Perhaps the Keyspan Twin is no good.  This is the second Keyspan Twin I've tried.  I thought the first one was broken, and threw it out.  My engineer says it's seems like a G4/OS9 issue.

I do have a friend with an old Mac running OS7, which has serial ports, but that probably won't run the diagnostic software for testing. 

I guess my first question is how do I insure nothing else is trying to use the modem?  Probably more questions after that, but any thoughts will be appreciated very sincerely!

Thanks.

Nick

[nickmt]

Oh sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Now I see there are replies already.  Reading them now. 

Thanks!!!!!!

[nickmt]

ok, well.  I'll see what i can find out here.  thank you!

[nickmt]

So I was going to write about trying a Iogear usb to serial adapter that also didn't work, and it's brand new, and stated two work with OS9.  But instead I'm requesting immediate support because my desktop icons, hard drive and everything have disappeared.   I was going thru the extensions folder trying to enable the Keyspan, which I'd disabled to try the Iogear.  At a certain point it wanted me to update, revert, or...there was a third choice..) I updated.  Then restarted.  I've restarted several times.  I get my background color desktop, icons begin to appear, then they vanish.  Help?

Thanks
Nick

[supernova777]

hey nick sorry to hear you are having so much trouble..
there usually is a solution if u follow a logical problem solving process

do u have another hard drive u can re-install os 9 to?
this is what i like to do to be able to experiment with settings without fear of data loss etc

also to try to install these things with a fresh os9 install may be a better idea..
if u have a fresh hd (any size 20gb-100gb or so) i would reccomend installing the drive,
booting into osx and using the os9general.zip provided here to quickly restore the disk image to the new drive
and then boot into it by selecting it as the start up drive, then u can experiment as u wish
if anything goes wrong simple boot back to osx and restore the image again to reset back to fresh install
and repeat;)

once u find a solution that works u can then carefully recreate the configuration on your existing disk!

[nickmt]

hey nick sorry to hear you are having so much trouble..
there usually is a solution if u follow a logical problem solving process

do u have another hard drive u can re-install os 9 to?
this is what i like to do to be able to experiment with settings without fear of data loss etc

also to try to install these things with a fresh os9 install may be a better idea..
if u have a fresh hd (any size 20gb-100gb or so) i would reccomend installing the drive,
booting into osx and using the os9general.zip provided here to quickly restore the disk image to the new drive
and then boot into it by selecting it as the start up drive, then u can experiment as u wish
if anything goes wrong simple boot back to osx and restore the image again to reset back to fresh install
and repeat;)

once u find a solution that works u can then carefully recreate the configuration on your existing disk!

I wish I understood how to follow your instructions, but I don't.  Is it possible to clarify please?  I do have a backup external hard drive that I can could possibly save a downloaded version on os9 onto, but I'm not sure what you mean by installing the drive(?).  Swap hardware out and into my G4? 

I first attempted to rebuild my desktop, by pressing option and command at startup, and waiting for a dialogue to appear asking if I wanted to rebuild.  But in never appeared.  I then tried to start up only holding command which brought up a screen showing my hard drive (tiger) but only the option to then boot up, and again it boots to a blank desk top, no menu no nothing, just the background color I chose.  I don't think OSX is on this computer just OS9.2

[nickmt]

Good news.  Boot disk worked, and I've restored the desktop, and saved my current set of extensions in extension manager.  Now back the the usb - serial - modem port communication problem.

Thanks for the support!!

[nickmt]

Well, I'm fit to be tied, whatever that means.  I just am  .  No matter how many extensions I turn off, or on, in extensions manager, I cannot get my serial device to recognize my G4.  What's the big deal? What software could be running, trying to access a modem, usurping a modem port, that I don't know about?   I've tried three different pieces of connecting hardware: two keyspan twins (28 and 28X), each with their own driver, and an iogear usb to serial adapter, and all give the same results - Bupkis! The hardware inside the serial device also appears perfect - db9 connector pins well attached to wires, and well connected to circuit board.  Do I really have to turn off or on every single extension/reboot/turn on device, in order to find the problem? That will be the most boring day long project ever.  And can turning off and on the the two hard drives in the G4 and the serial device so many times in short succession be good for them?

Does any one use a serial device with a G4 mirror door, and can send me a screen grab of extensions manager? That would be sooo wonderful, I'll be your best friend forever!  And I won't be a drag!

thanks
Nick

[supernova777]

nick... it was suggested to you u none of teh usb devices are true serial port solutions but rather translations
if u want a real serial port (Which would guarantee 100% compatibility) then u should get a g4port by griffin or a geethree stealth port
or some other type of pci card which adds a real serial port to the g4!! (such as the yamaah sw1000xg it features a serial port ON THE PCI CARD)

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/yamaha-sw1000xg-458410.jpg <-- see image here
im guessing that its a fully functional serial port + not just a midi port??? but i may be wrong?

http://stn2.headgap.com/resale/FMPro?-token=&-db=ProductsC.fp3&-lay=WEB&-format=items.htm&-sortfield=SortID&-Max=40&category=network&-find
^^ these guys have one for sale apparently kind of a rip for them to up the price to 79$

the geethree serial ports are sold out! and hard to track down now.. probably alot of them sitting in landfill now because noone knew what they were
and people have been trashing old macs to make hackintoshes like mad the last few years

[nickmt]

Yes Chris.  It's true that was suggested.  I haven't yet swallowed that pill cos I haven't gotten over my Keyspan not working, and reading about a software called SerialKeys that sounds like it might do the trick... but if it doesn't I'll contact Headgap, thank you.   I've received an email from my serial device/digital camera manufacturer saying  "This stuff will probably NOT work OK if you are running an early version of MacOS-10 using its so-called "Classic Mode", however."

 I'm running a G4 with a new hard drive that only has 9.2.2 Tiger on it.  Do you know if Tiger is "classic"?  I fear it is...

thanks
Nick

 

[supernova777]

Yes Chris.  It's true that was suggested.  I haven't yet swallowed that pill cos I haven't gotten over my Keyspan not working, and reading about a software called SerialKeys that sounds like it might do the trick... but if it doesn't I'll contact Headgap, thank you.   I've received an email from my serial device/digital camera manufacturer saying  "This stuff will probably NOT work OK if you are running an early version of MacOS-10 using its so-called "Classic Mode", however."

 I'm running a G4 with a new hard drive that only has 9.2.2 Tiger on it.  Do you know if Tiger is "classic"?  I fear it is...

thanks
Nick

classic mode was an emulation program inside which you could run older apps,  such as a word processor, photoshop etc it was not meant for extended functionality such as
serial/midi communication

to clarify these are all different operating systems:

mac os 9.2.2
mac os x jaguar 10.2 (support os9.x apps via CLASSIC MODE)
mac os x panther 10.3 (support os9.x apps via CLASSIC MODE)
mac os x tiger 10.4 (last to support os9.x apps via CLASSIC MODE)
mac os x leopard 10.5 (classic mode REMOVED + NA)

if you are using os9.2.2 you can disregard what he said about classic mode.

have u considered trying to find an older mac that has the right serial connection for this device? such as a beige g3 ..
does it work with pcs? maybe u would be better off trying to connect it to a pentium 3 computer that has a serial port.
(which u should be able to find for next to nothing and would be from the same time period as the camera/software)
i have a p3 motherboard + chip sitting on a shelf next to me, they are comparible in strength to the weakest powermac g3 systems
i believe!

why dont u post the details about the device your trying to make work..
whats it called?

[nickmt]

have u considered trying to find an older mac that has the right serial connection for this device? such as a beige g3 ..
does it work with pcs? maybe u would be better off trying to connect it to a pentium 3 computer that has a serial port.
(which u should be able to find for next to nothing and would be from the same time period as the camera/software)
i have a p3 motherboard + chip sitting on a shelf next to me, they are comparible in strength to the weakest powermac g3 systems
i believe!

why dont u post the details about the device your trying to make work..
whats it called?
[/quote]

It's called a DicoLite, which is an older, and less expensive version of a Better Light 4x5 digital scan back, similar to older Phase One digital scan backs that slide into the film slot of a 4x5 camera.  I use it to scan negatives and chromes under an enlarger, and I think it does the job better than what it was designed for - field photography.  Not sure what details I can give you, as I'm obviously not a computer tech, but the actual scan back is has slim digital imaging chip, just under 4" wide, and very thin, that scans up the "film plane", just under 5" high, and sends image data to its remote proprietary computer via two thick cables that twist lock into that remote computer.  Those cables fasten to the scan back itself with connectors that basically look like serial connectors. The little computer can somehow serve to operate the camera in the field, I believe, but I'm not entirely sure how, as it doesn't have a monitor, or keyboard, and I can't quite imagine how the software would be controlled without them.  But in the studio the little computer connects to the Mac with a scsi cable.  The controlling software lives on the Mac and the camera's operational controls for exposure, pre-scans/scans, and stuff like that, all show up on the Mac's monitor, just like with any other scanner.  It generates files just over 100mb per image. As mentioned I had to swap out the little computer's hard drive as it was dead. To initialize the new hd "gains tables" need to be sent to it via serial modem port, to a serial connector on the back of the little computer.  As I understand it the serial modem connection is only used for sending and receiving diagnostic info to and from the the small computer and the Mac, while Image data goes thru the scsi.  Once I'm initialized I doubt I'll be using this serial modem connection any longer.  But I'm stuck without it.  I learned about the Better Light camera from a professional black and white printer/photographer, someone similar to me I guess, who's the friend of another professional friend of mine, here in NY.  I continue to be in touch with Mike, the creator of these cameras, as he's committed to supporting them even though he's winding the business down, and cameras like mine are so "old".  In today's email with Mike commented on something I asked about the diagnostic software - it appears as several icons in a folder that on his Mac look very different compared to how they look on mine.  My icons are mostly blank white rectangles with bent corners, and one or two are diamond shaped with a hand w/pencil, writing.  His icons are all proper icons - they look like little cameras, not plain white rectangles.  Not sure if I should concern myself with that at this moment, or not.

About older Mac's, I did in fact post an ad on my local Craigslist for a blue grey G4, running 9.0.4, as that's what Mike has, but so far no dice.  My current G4 ran extremely well for years. I upgraded the software several times, but eventually its OS didn't support the camera software I was using, when converting RAW files.  Truth be told it was also getting a little glitchy. I replaced it with an iMac, and it sat around until I needed OS9.  Headgap sold me a 9.9.2 hd.  I installed it, and it runs quite well, but it's also a bit of a mystery to me, as this was my first mac, I mostly used OSX, and don't know OS9 very well. Today I tried taking a screen grab of those icons I mentioned - shift, comand, 4 - but the image wouldn't open.  Not on the iMac either.  Said the application was missing. Par for the course. So I've got a mess on my hands  G3? Blue grey G4? Serial card from Headgap?  Something else?  Can't tell exactly how this will end up, but with continued will power, and support I'll get there.  Thanks so much!


Nick

[supernova777]

yes the default screen grab on os9 is a different format!!
its a .pict file
you would do well to go to macintoshgarden.org and download an older version of photoshop such a 3 or 5
and then open photoshop then open the screen grab (which should be on your disks highest level folder)
and then u can save it as a .jpg file that u can send to any other mac or windows or post online
there might me a web based file conversion service that could do it aswell but its so easy to install these low versions of photoshop and they really work quite well on os9 so just do that!

like i told u from the start, the serial port addons are the best solution to this problem.
unfortunately they are hard to locate, you might be able to find a used mac that has one in it, the g4 sawtooth i bought for 35 dollars last year has one inside luckily, any mac that comes with sound cards + Was used for music in the90s by a musician or a graphic artist is more likely to have this stealth port mod, it connects to the modem card inside and replaces the internal modem (which is useless and was pretty much useless even when it came out in my area we had cable modem which connected via ethernet since 1995) you might need to hunt around and make some posts on other boards but if u can find someone that has one a proper price shouldnt be much more then 30-40$ for this considering its age and target platform..... the 79$ price by headgap even u mght want to call them and tell them ur situation and tell them to lower the price if they even have this 1 in stock still. but i can almost guarantee if its a serial problem related to the usb adapter that this will work in any situation that the usb adapter will not!
theres many more documented issues with the keyspan adapters its a shame they didnt work for anything more usefull then just a wacom tablet or a printer which is all they were probably designed for in the first place

[supernova777]

from this image perhaps even a pci card providing a pc kind of serial port may be able to use some type of adapter to turn it into a mac circular port. im lookijng into this and ive asked on another forum to see if anyone has expertise on this

http://www.andybaird.com/qt200/cables.html

[supernova777]

http://www.kpsurplus.com/buy/keyspan_4_port_mac_serial_pci_card_sxpro_oxford_chip/19605


real mac ports:
http://www.mir.com.my/lb/mpug/Mac-Profile/Portable_Mac/MacPortableD.jpg

need to track this card down

heres more info:
http://www.welovemacs.com/sxpro4.html
http://www.debate.org/reference/keyspan-sx-pro-sx-pro4

driver:
http://list.driverguide.com/list/MAC/company1563/index.html

heres a document by megawolf referencing its direct competitors !!
http://www.megawolf.com/downloads/Choosing-a-PCI-Serial-Card.pdf

[supernova777]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=%28creative%2C+keyspan%2C+megawolf%2C+silicon+valley%29+pci&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.X%28creative+solutions%2C+keyspan%2C+megawolf%2C+silicon+valley%29+pci.TRS0&_nkw=%28creative+solutions%2C+keyspan%2C+megawolf%2C+silicon+valley%29+pci&_sacat=0

theres a listing for a megawolf 2 port serial pci card for os9 here i would buy it quickly im tempted to buy it myself:P

[nickmt]

On ebay now: Megawolf 2 Channel PCI Serial Interface Card - Apple OS9 MID

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291023908536&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Now sure how to post the ebay image, but this link to a serial card that looks like it would fit in the G4.  Any thoughts on if if would work?

My last major consideration re getting serial modem port communications working, besides the fact that the computer crashed yet again, for a new reason, and is frozen, is that my current 0S9 hard drive could possibly be lacking some other software that would give a fuller capability to my usb ports (and who knows what re overall stability)  Is this even possible?  The idea occurs to me, not so much because it's crashed again, but because I realized not only are my Diagnostic/initializing software icons incorrect, compared to the exact same icons on my manufacture's, Mike's, computer, but I've also realized most of my application and utility icons look like plain white rectangles that do nothing when clicked on.  Not to mention my failed screen-grab experience... ok it's a pict file. I basically understand why the iMac wouldn't view it, but the computer(G4) that generated it can't see it? And also, I realize now(!) that Headgap gave me a CD of extra software that looks like applications, and utilities!  I'm hoping uploading these files might possibly solve what fooling with extensions manager so obviously didn't.  There is even listed an application that looked USB port related.  I tired to click in it, but I might have done so too soon before the CD stopped fully loading, and that's what crashed the computer.  I've rebooted, but it booted to the exact same place - open CD window showing list of extras, and mouse frozen.  Not sure how to proceed, again.  (Help??)  Thanks again.  Also, I found software on the web called SerialKeys, and FindSerialPorts, and I've downloaded the sit files to my working iMac that I'll tansfer via thumb drive, and try loading up.  Ever hear of these softwares?  They supposedly help specifically with using the Keyspan Twin.  Finally, thanks for the Photoshop tip.  G4 has no internet now, but that will change. I've strung an ethernet cable close by.  I just need to extend it.


Nick