Author Topic: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?  (Read 79423 times)

Offline nanopico

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Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« on: September 01, 2015, 08:40:04 AM »
So here's my idea.
We as a community create the necessary bits and pieces to get OS 9 running on all G3/G4 machines and possibly on G5 machines.
We would do this by basing it off the latest rom, extensions and drivers that already exist.
The internet archive has a 4 GB tar file of developer.apple.com that contains a lot of developer information and hardware specs.  Between that and linux source code for these machines it's not unreasonable to be able create the right extensions, control panels and enablers to get the OS running on unsupported hardware.
I for one am going to attempt this and I'm curious if any one else want's to join in?
yes I am aware that this is a rather large undertaking with a lot of missing documentation, but I do strongly believe everything needed to do this is available, just not in one convenient location.
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Offline Graveyard

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 09:01:53 AM »
I am willing to use all my ppc machines to test it, if anyone is willing to initiate such a project. If there's anything in my archive i can contribute with, i'm more than willing to do so.
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 09:11:29 AM »
just one problem right away. how do you make sure it is compatible backward ? it is rather complicated to play with the filesystem. can you layout in detail what the idea is or do you plan something like rosetta ?

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 11:17:26 AM »
It wouldn't be like Rosetta as that was technically an emulator/runtime that did instruction translation between the PPC instruction set and the X86 instruction set.
The biggest issue is that of the hardware. 
Graphics card and bus architecture issues can be worked out through extensions. Basically you can look through the various open source graphics drivers for the various *nix's to figure out how the hardware is addressed and works.  From there you can take that knowledge and create extensions/drivers for OS 9.  Same thing for USB2, FW800, PCI-E, though because those are buses, a lot of additional hardware will not work there would be no drivers for those devices in OS 9, though if we get that far it would not be beyond the realm of reality to write drivers for some of those devices.
The other side of it is the ROM, which is what I believe is where you would have concerns with backwards compatibility.  There has been some great work done here already to get some machines to run existing ROM's by basically tricking the systems into a sort of backwards compatibility mode.  What I would suggest is rolling back to the latest official Apple released ROM.  Starting there we get compatibility with everything officially supported by Apple.
From there you start writing enablers for the various unsupported machines.  This is functionality was introduced with system 7 so and is still supported on the new world ROM's.  And actually the switching to the new world ROM probably makes this a bit easier as there are actually two ROM's.  One is the firmware ROM that would be within open frimware.  This is used to basically initialize all the hardware.  The second ROM is the toolbox ROM and this is what has been modified so far to get some unsupported machines running.  This rom is loaded via a CHRP script which i believe iMic, DieHard and some others (sorry if I left anyone's name off there that helped with that) have modified/worked with to get the machines running.  The CHRP script would need to be modified to load the toolbox, detect unsupported CPU's and load the enabler for them, then load the toolbox ROM, transfer control to that and allow it to continue booting.

Additionally there may need to be extensions written that detect the various motherboard ASIC's and provide patches to the toolbox rom to make them work so that the machine can be fully supported.

This is by no means a trivial task, and may end up going no-where, but it's something I for one am going to try to make happen.

I suspect there will be a lot of this may end up being written in assembly with a heft amount of C as well.

So in a nutshell that's my plan.

At the very minimum, I hope to at least create some graphics card drivers out of this so that we can at least add a few newer cards to the list available in OS 9 and possibly even a few other drivers such as class complaint drivers for USB Audio.
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 11:44:05 AM »
sounds like you need to plan that thing out very well. by the way you cant rely on nix code and would have to reverse a lot of the code. remember os9 has still a lot of pascal in it.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 11:51:22 AM »
*nix code would not be used, but referenced for communication specification and register information of various cards.
Pascal was used up to System 6.  7 started a migration to C.
Most of 8 and 9 where C.  There may be pascal, but in the end it's all binary machine instructions.
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 12:09:03 PM »
i think you are wrong about that. the pascal heritage is a big part of it because they reused to much of the old code instead of rewriting it.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 12:24:04 PM »
Possible, but really the language they used is fairly irrelevant honestly as the approach I am looking at is through extensions, enablers and control panels and those can be written in c, assembly, pascal, whatever...
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 12:37:31 PM »
so what software is used to work on it? have you looked at the transition between 9 and x ? i think that was copeland or something like that it looked like 9 but had already a lite taste of x. maybe that should be analyzed. i would like to have a real multitasking and a way to free the memory when you close the app.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 12:43:38 PM »
Right now I'm still researching all the piece and bits, and this is more a call out to anyone who has any low level knowledge they want to contribute.  There was rhapsody which might be what you are thinking of. It looked like 9, but it was the core of the first version of x and I believe it went on to be released as os x server 1.0 which ran on PPC and Intel oddly enough.
Yes multitasking would be awesome and could definitely be added to the wish list of features along with freeing memory. though keep in mind I'm not completely sure all this can happen.
The memory one might be easier to implement though as memory managers are slightly easier to implement then task schedulers when dealing with OS level items.
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 12:46:24 PM »
may not be able to do all of that since you need to keep a level of compatibilitie. most old apps on os9 dont expect such a drastic change and may crash.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 12:48:33 PM »
Agreed completely there.
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 01:42:21 PM »

We as a community create the necessary bits and pieces to get OS 9 running on all G3/G4 machines and possibly on G5 machines.


At the very minimum, I hope to at least create some graphics card drivers out of this so that we can at least add a few newer cards to the list available in OS 9 and possibly even a few other drivers such as class complaint drivers for USB Audio.

There is only a few machines left out: All iBooks G4 and all Alu Powerbooks that don´t play OS9. All PM G4 now run native OS9. The lack of OS9 drivers in those machines is the trouble where iMic left his work. The search should start on those graphics cards and also the G4 AGP cards "OSX" compatible. ATI's 9200 and up and Gforce 5200 and up. I would love ATI 9650 and 9800 working in OS9... In fact, any  CoreImage card going OS9 with 2D and 3D accel would be a gift.

I think ALL USB 1.1  class complaint work with Ploytec drivers...

Good luck with that. I have already posted most of the info from Apple developer in the age of MacOS8.5 and 9 via wayback machine on other post. I will put them back here on this later.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2015, 01:48:57 PM »
I saw your post on the driver dev stuff on the other thread.  I think there were a few pdf's missing on the way back machine.
I did find them last night in some of my own archives as well.  I will share them here as soon as I get a chance.
Graphic drivers are where I do plan on starting as it did look like that is the biggest hangup on most machines remaining that need support.
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Offline Philgood

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 02:53:25 PM »
Would love to be able to boot OS 9 with my alu PowerBook.
I think having a graphic card driver for these machines is all what's needed beside of the work already done on hacking unsupported machines?
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2015, 09:11:09 AM »
Trying to recompile Linux drivers to make it work in Mac Os 9 is a real hard an very complex task.
- Most of linux drivers are in the kernel, and there, the source code is an actual nightmare, (unless we found one of the Intel programmers that work on it...)
- Most of the Linux hardware work with "generic drivers" that aren't enough reliable.
- Some of the Linux drivers lack of source code, only binaries are provided (nVidia drivers)
I have place Here a early PowerMac G5 block diagram as an example of how many alien devices Mac Os 9 can find if trying to boot on such computers:

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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2015, 08:52:29 AM »
Yes I am aware of the issues you outlined with linux/unix drivers and porting.
I do have a bit of experience in this area which is why I'm even willing to attempt this.
Those block diagrams are helpful as well.  I have a many of them also.
Yes the binary only nature of many drivers does make such things very difficult.
But even if we get some generic drivers for this hardware to work and get the systems booting and running (even sub optimally) that would still be an interesting feat.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2015, 09:01:56 AM »
Yes I am aware of the issues you outlined with linux/unix drivers and porting.
I do have a bit of experience in this area which is why I'm even willing to attempt this.
Those block diagrams are helpful as well.  I have a many of them also.
Yes the binary only nature of many drivers does make such things very difficult.
But even if we get some generic drivers for this hardware to work and get the systems booting and running (even sub optimally) that would still be an interesting feat.

In my opinion, porting a U3 driver from Debian PPC to Mac Os 9, to try to boot a G5 with Mac Os 9, will be a good starting point.
Just a suggestion :)
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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2015, 11:14:55 AM »
I will definitely take that suggestion and any others for sure.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2015, 12:28:30 PM »
In fact, any  CoreImage card going OS9 with 2D and 3D accel would be a gift.

you wont even get those to run under OSX, because all of them are aready x8. i think it is possible to use the PCI version of the geforce 5 in a G4, but it would run slower than a geforce 3 in a x4 slot and it would probably not support any kind of acceleration under OS9. you could as well use no graphics card at all.
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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2015, 07:31:56 AM »
While researching/working on this I found some sort of interesting (although not surprising) bits.
So I've been digging through the open source ati drivers and the linux kernel generic video drivers and I got this idea.
Why start there when you can start right at the source, that being Apple.   The core of OS X is open source so I figured I'd look at darwin (well actually the xnu kernel source).  Yes I realize that OS X is not 9, but both are from Apple, so it's pretty safe to assume the driver code in xnu would be a good base. 
So here comes the interesting part. The power management drivers for the version of the xnu kernel that corresponds to OS X 10.3.9 have comments that the code is copied directly from OS 9.
So I am now digging through the xnu code for details of the hardware and drivers that need to be created.
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2015, 07:41:21 AM »

So here comes the interesting part. The power management drivers for the version of the xnu kernel that corresponds to OS X 10.3.9 have comments that the code is copied directly from OS 9.


You guys are WAY over my head but this DOES seem interesting!!

Offline IIO

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2015, 01:54:50 AM »
The core of OS X is open source so I figured I'd look at darwin (well actually the xnu kernel source).  Yes I realize that OS X is not 9, but both are from Apple, so it's pretty safe to assume the driver code in xnu would be a good base.

"both are from apple" seems to be quite unintersting, given that we are talking about completly different hardware components and a completly different OS.

can you explain why you would not just write OS9 drivers today the same way they were written 15 years ago?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2015, 06:22:22 AM »
I will write them the same way the did back in the day, but back in the day the apple engineers likely had full documentation on the chips as to what registers, instructions and memory locations they had.  I do not have access to this documentation so going to xnu as a source means that you can pull the registers, instructions and memory locations from that code to sort of rebuild that documentation to write the driver off of. 

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Offline IIO

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2015, 04:03:04 PM »
i see. well if that is easier than finding the old documentations, then go on. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2015, 06:13:16 PM »
If you know a good source for the documentation of the various devices then I'm all ears.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2015, 05:13:22 AM »
i am more the guy for commercial software. :)

today it is already hard to impossible to find the old SDKs for controlpanels, quicktime, java or perl. not to mention stuff which requires info about 15 years old hardware.

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Front 424

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 05:00:49 AM »
I'm very intrigued by this talk!  ;)
I wish I had some programming skills, but alas, none to be had.  I dabbled in the past but lost interest.  But if I did i would readily lend a hand in this endeavor!

This is my first post here months after joining, and glad to see a community keeping OS 9 alive.  Even better that at least one person is hoping to improve OS 9.

I figured I would bump this post for encouragement.  Any updates would be appreciated.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 08:29:06 AM »
I haven't really given an update as I don't have any thing to show at this point.  I don't expect this to be quick and easy by any means.
But I can give you an update on what I have found and know.

I have found through exhaustive searching old documentations on various parts of the mac internals (well as much as apple documented for developer use).

I found several references that stated that the Classic Support extension used for Classic mode in os x does some interesting things such as completely replace all memory management routines to map them to the memory manager of OS X.  This is probably the main reason why you can not access hardware directly from with in classic mode.

The earliest part of the boot process that open firmware hands off to is an elf executable.  OS 9 uses PEF executable format, but Open Firmware knows about ELF formats.  The elf file is actually responsible for loading, decompressing/decoding either an LZSS file embedded in the ROM (used on versions lower than 9.0) or parcels embedded in the rom file.  These parts are in the data fork of Mac OS ROM.
The ELF file is a valid ELF file but most decompilers/disassemblers do not recognize it as they expect a record size for sections.  The standard states that if no sections are defined then the record size can be zero.  This is the case in this ELF file so the decompilers out there think it's an invalid file.  The second problem with the disassemblers that are available is that they only speak the simplified PPC instruction set.  After extracing the program headers from the elf file and running it through several disassemblers as raw code I figured this out as the output had a lot of long jumps which are not part of the PPS ISA.
So I set forth and wrote a small utility program that loads the ROM into ram in a known place.  The reason for this is that after everything is loaded and booted, parts are moved around and removed from memory so you can't view the data in the ram locations these parts are where loaded in.  Once I loaded the ROM into ram the program analizes all the parts to find the entry point that open firmware essentially jumps to.  So once I have that address for my loaded ROM, I dropped into macsbug and used that disassembler and told it to start dissasembling from the entry address.  This produced much different output than other disassemblers and I was able to figure out that the PPC processor apple uses (at least starting with the g3's and forward) are using the ISA For PowerPC Book E  (Which is an enhanced instruction set).  The other thing that indicates that the ISA for the g3 and newer is Book E is that the instructoins 2-4 from the entry point are all Book E instructions.  If a cpu doesn't support Book E the unsupported instructions can be emulated in code, but you need to load a trap/interrupt, a function to handle it and then a look up table to decide what actual procedure to run.  These things would not be loaded with in the first 4 instructions.

The other thing I've figured out is the PVR (cpu_version) is checked early on in the elf file to even determine if it should move forward.
On New World machines the elf file is loaded and one of the first things it does is pull some data out of the device tree then issues the DO-QUIESCES which basicly suspends open firmware.

I haven't fully decifered everything in that elf boot loader code, but my suspicions at the moment lead me to believe that it does the following. 

Checks the CPU Version to ensure it is a version supported (updating this will get OS 9 booting on the G4's that require the cpu-version property  change in the open firmware device tree with out having to do the update)

Decodes the toolbox rom from either the LZSS file or the Parcels

Jumps to the kernel to finish booting.

It's at the point once the nano-kernel is started that you will see the Happy Mac.

I haven't figured out if the nano-kernel is part of the elf file or int the LZSS or Parcels.

And some very early notes on the possibility of booting on the G5.
The 64 Bit version of the Book E ISA is backwards compatible with the 32 bit version.  This is actually why all the OS X versions suppored on the G5 where 32 bit.  They could write it in 32 bit and it would run on the G4, G3 and G5 with no real issue.
So the cpu will not be a limiting factor on the G5.
The error seen booting on the G5
MacOS: cascade interrupt, but no cascading bridge
Is an issue early on with in the ELF file mentioned.  In both the G4 and G5's the cascading bridge is implemented in the north bridge.
The north bridge is completely different (as noted elsewhere in this thread) on these two systems. The drivers for the Uni North are in a resource in the Mac OS ROM file.  I haven't figured out though if there is some basic initialization code that runs prior to that driver (to enable full functionality) in the boot loader because I haven't figured out if it has access to the items in the resource fork by that time in the boot process.  I think it might so if a U3 driver can be written and dropped in that resource that would solve that problem. Of course this would still not allow the G5 to fully boot OS 9.  Other things that would have to be added to get the G5 working is support for AGP 8x and pci-e.  These are implemented also in the U3 controller.  The AGP 8x ports on the G5 are not backwards compatible at all according to Apple documentation.
I have not given up hope of booting on the G5, it will just take a lot more time than getting full support on unsupported G4's and doing a couple more memory enhancements as well.

On the subject of memory here's an interesting tidbit.
The Toolbox kernel and system resources (including the finder) are loaded into the lowest part of memory.
Applications are loaded into the top part of memory.
So when you have 2 GB of ram in OS9 and the finder takes 512 MB.  This is the first 512 MB (well starting from the kernel, toolbox)
This means that applications can run when their memory addresses are up in the top 2GB of ram.
So I am fairly confident that the memory management routines can be updated to get access to that part the finder is taking up.

That's it for my rambles.  Again nothing to show other than some understanding about early boot process.
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 09:04:26 AM »
Great detective work nanopico!! Some very interesting stuff there.

Don't know anything about the ELF file but I've seen the ELF movie numerous times!! ;D ;D ;D


Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 09:09:47 AM »
Yes that is a great movie.
Elf is the default executable format for Linux, which is why I was fairly surprised to find that in the ROM file.
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 09:30:51 AM »
of coarse!!! ;D

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 10:13:26 AM »
I forgot to mention I did create some templates for ResEdit that would allow a few resources types to be updated much more easily (such as the gtbl).  I can post them here if any one is interested.
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Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 10:20:42 AM »
Might need a one on one when it comes to programming.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 11:54:08 AM »
I found several references that stated that the Classic Support extension used for Classic mode in os x does some interesting things such as completely replace all memory management routines to map them to the memory manager of OS X.  This is probably the main reason why you can not access hardware directly from with in classic mode.

In Classic mode we can't access to hardware because there is no hardware to access.  ;D it's a virtual mac.

Quote
The other thing I've figured out is the PVR (cpu_version) is checked early on in the elf file to even determine if it should move forward.
On New World machines the elf file is loaded and one of the first things it does is pull some data out of the device tree then issues the DO-QUIESCES which basicly suspends open firmware.

I haven't fully decifered everything in that elf boot loader code, but my suspicions at the moment lead me to believe that it does the following. 

Checks the CPU Version to ensure it is a version supported (updating this will get OS 9 booting on the G4's that require the cpu-version property  change in the open firmware device tree with out having to do the update)

Decodes the toolbox rom from either the LZSS file or the Parcels

Jumps to the kernel to finish booting.

That's one of the main task of the Sonnet/Newertech OF scripts that enable Mac Os 9 to boot with a 7447 and a 7448 installed.

Quote
It's at the point once the nano-kernel is started that you will see the Happy Mac.

I haven't figured out if the nano-kernel is part of the elf file or int the LZSS or Parcels.

And some very early notes on the possibility of booting on the G5.
The 64 Bit version of the Book E ISA is backwards compatible with the 32 bit version.  This is actually why all the OS X versions suppored on the G5 where 32 bit.  They could write it in 32 bit and it would run on the G4, G3 and G5 with no real issue.
So the cpu will not be a limiting factor on the G5.
The error seen booting on the G5
MacOS: cascade interrupt, but no cascading bridge
Is an issue early on with in the ELF file mentioned.  In both the G4 and G5's the cascading bridge is implemented in the north bridge.
The north bridge is completely different (as noted elsewhere in this thread) on these two systems. The drivers for the Uni North are in a resource in the Mac OS ROM file.  I haven't figured out though if there is some basic initialization code that runs prior to that driver (to enable full functionality) in the boot loader because I haven't figured out if it has access to the items in the resource fork by that time in the boot process.  I think it might so if a U3 driver can be written and dropped in that resource that would solve that problem. Of course this would still not allow the G5 to fully boot OS 9.  Other things that would have to be added to get the G5 working is support for AGP 8x and pci-e.  These are implemented also in the U3 controller.  The AGP 8x ports on the G5 are not backwards compatible at all according to Apple documentation.
I have not given up hope of booting on the G5, it will just take a lot more time than getting full support on unsupported G4's and doing a couple more memory enhancements as well.

I have pointed out many times that lack of drivers for the U3 will be the first obstacle to boot a G5 with Mac Os 9.

Quote
On the subject of memory here's an interesting tidbit.
The Toolbox kernel and system resources (including the finder) are loaded into the lowest part of memory.
Applications are loaded into the top part of memory.
So when you have 2 GB of ram in OS9 and the finder takes 512 MB.  This is the first 512 MB (well starting from the kernel, toolbox)
This means that applications can run when their memory addresses are up in the top 2GB of ram.
So I am fairly confident that the memory management routines can be updated to get access to that part the finder is taking up.

That's it for my rambles.  Again nothing to show other than some understanding about early boot process.

Wow! this is really interesting. I have thought about this in several occasions but I never have found a so good idea !
The problem may be that this extra memory address may be used already (by ROM by example).
Another possibility is to use this memory as a RAM disk. This was already done with some old macs.


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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 02:35:06 PM »
Yes the Sonnet/Neweretech OF scripts over ride the cpu-version to boot the 7447 and 7448/  I'm hopping to update the code that checks that actually in the rom so that those scripts don't need to be run.

I'm not entirely sure what is using the lower 512 MB address space.  I can't really imagine it being ROM or Toolbox. It's entirely possible though.

Yes the lack of U3 drivers is the first obstacle for G5, and I'm 100% sure it's not the only one.  The key largo 2 will also be an issue.
the cascading interrupt bridge error is proof that that is the first issue to overcome.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 07:56:26 PM »
Quote
On the subject of memory here's an interesting tidbit.
The Toolbox kernel and system resources (including the finder) are loaded into the lowest part of memory.
Applications are loaded into the top part of memory.
So when you have 2 GB of ram in OS9 and the finder takes 512 MB.  This is the first 512 MB (well starting from the kernel, toolbox)
This means that applications can run when their memory addresses are up in the top 2GB of ram.
So I am fairly confident that the memory management routines can be updated to get access to that part the finder is taking up.

As Mactron mentioned, and I alluded to here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2101.msg10763#msg10763

There would be a tremendous advantage to utilize the first 512MB (or most of it) for a RAM drive when the unit has a 2 GB Memory configuration. So even if the memory management routines are not re-written, perhaps we can cheat and leave the current implementation alone and just re-write some RAM drive code; I am guessing they implemented the this standard somewhat arbitrarily since at the time of Classic Mac OS, they never dreamed that users would want, need, or even be able to afford more than a 1GB of RAM. So they probably picked a really high starting point (512MB) just in case they needed more room for juggling the low level assembly stuff later on... which again, does not make sense, since the finder does not eat up the first 512MB when the memory configuration is 1.5GB or less)... Is it possible that the RAM above 1.5GB is remapped to the first 512MB  and that 1.5GB is the real ceiling ?  If not, way does the lower memory only get effected when the physical memory is above 1.5 GB ?

At any rate, to Simplify, if we could steal, say 80% on the first 512 MB for a RAM drive (in a 2GB configuration), that would be mint !

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 09:10:05 PM »
It sounds like there is desire to put focus in to memory usage and attempt to reclaim the memory the finder takes when 2 gb is installed, possibly given to a ram disk.
I accept this challenge and will put forth the efforts there.
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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2015, 09:12:19 PM »
Just a little side note.  I'd like to thank everyone for contributing to this.  The input has been very helpful in giving me some direction.  Also to those who have questioned some ideas or poked holes in my plans, thank you very much.  This feedback is very useful as it does make me think and rethink and examine things in ways I may not have seen.  Oh the joys of a community that can have an actual discussion.!!! :)
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2015, 11:16:00 PM »
It sounds like there is desire to put focus in to memory usage and attempt to reclaim the memory the finder takes when 2 gb is installed, possibly given to a ram disk.
I accept this challenge and will put forth the efforts there.

Thanks for taking your time weighting to develop 9.3.

True Multitasking in OS9 is noted?
 
Please don't forget to put light on developing drivers/extensions for any coreimage cards. I guess ALU PowerBooks/iBookG4/iMacG4 owners would like some support on their models too.

But most of us are PM G4 QS/MDD daw users. Take this page on JapaMac as a list. There are 15 candidates to test.  :o http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/4B4B7BA2-7ABB-47F1-87AC-B03D37942BEE.html I only have a GeForce 5200 128 Mg still not flashed for Mac. Since I digout OS9 experience would be bad with that I forget about it. If you are really interested I could flash it to make some tests but I can be a better tester in the MDD 2 Gigs area.

In fact I have a MDD 866 dual with 2 gigs of ram. For any test just PM. It has an ASUS Geforce2 with 64 Megs.

I also suggest nanopico to use the DieHard DAW http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2716.0 as the "MacOS 9.2.2" to improve and to be the bed of all tests. It is sorted out clean enought to be a test field. And to be fair, it is 2015 and 8 gig footprint for an OS is "normal".  I have it on my 4 PM, from a G3 450 to the GHz Dual to the 800QS to the MDD.

Any light over the files missing on the wayback machine? You said you had something not covered yet. My sources are here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1931.0

Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2015, 11:35:55 PM »
Also, developing a driver for those cheaps chinese USB to serial things could help the MIDI old serial stuff via RS232 instead of the $$$ route can help the forum

http://es.eachbuyer.com/usb-to-rs232-serial-9-pin-db9-cable-adapter-convertor-p3402.html?currency=EUR&from=pla&gclid=CPm30NetiskCFWoJwwodLLMF_g

But don´t take this as the first on the list. Any advance giving back even a bit of  memory to the user would be AWESOME.

We should find what is common between OS9 and Panther to port graphics drivers. iMic from ThinkClassic put some light with his experiments on his iBook G4 and a iMacG4.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2015, 11:38:20 PM »
this is an oxymoron.. because. the usb technology itself would take away from the timing benefit of using serial...
while if it could work.. with a new driver.. it would enable it to work yes.. but not as well as a true serial connection..
the serial uart chip processing is superior for this type of data transmission!!!

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2015, 11:55:16 PM »
Anyway, my first request for an 9.3 will be to implement the IP - midi rendezvous thing present since tiger to have networked machines midi connected via lan instead of plain midi cables as I do today.

A stronger OMS 2.3.9 ? Or a better FreeMIDI?

I can only see things from my perspective as DAW user.

Maybe even a flash hacked to report as actual (like in OSX PPC) could help some users willing to run desktop sites instead of mobiles with classilla or IE.

Trying to add too many things to Classic OS were too much for ALL Apple Inc. See Copland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29 .It was the bed for Jobs return to Apple, as most of the new features were present on NeXT OS
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:17:01 AM by Protools5LEGuy »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 05:22:25 AM »
Just an FYI on the 2GB/512mb finder thing.
I stated that the finder was considered part of the system and was in the lower parts of ram. 
I hadn't validated that yet, but the source I found that from is just wrong.
The actual apple documents relating to this do say the rom, toolbox and some extensions sit in the lower part of ram but mentions nothing of the finder. 
The finder is sitting at the top part of ram.  I will look into this more on the systems I have with 2 GB, but on a system with 320 MB the ram layout from the top down was Control Panels, Some extensions, Control Strip Modules then the Finder, so it's not even sitting right at the top.
The rom, toolbox and system extensions were in fact at the bottom of ram. 
The process manager, which acts as the loader/linker/launcher occupies all remains ram and it allocates the ram to applications as they launch.
This is still interesting in that if the machine with 2 GB lays out the same it still means that the system can address the memory some what properly. 

There are two places the wasted space could be allocated. 
1. in the process manager when it launches the Finder
2. In the finder after it launches it grows it's heap (I think this is less likely but still possible).

If any one else has theories on this let me know.

Additionally the North bridge drivers in resource fork of the rom appear to be completely useless.  I completely removed those resources and was still able to boot a system.  I still need to test this on a few other systems as it's possible they are only needed on certain systems.
So I now know one place the north bridge drivers aren't.

Any light over the files missing on the wayback machine? You said you had something not covered yet. My sources are here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1931.0
I had found someone else had downloaded and mirrored the content as well but got it from an earlier point in time so the missing pages where on that site.  I will go through my notes to find the site.  I have the file on one of my drives here, I'll find it again if anyone is interested.

this is an oxymoron.. because. the usb technology itself would take away from the timing benefit of using serial...
while if it could work.. with a new driver.. it would enable it to work yes.. but not as well as a true serial connection..
the serial uart chip processing is superior for this type of data transmission!!!

Agreed.  I have a usb to serial RS232  adapter that has drivers for OS 9 and the performance really isn't very good.

Anyway, my first request for an 9.3 will be to implement the IP - midi rendezvous thing present since tiger to have networked machines midi connected via lan instead of plain midi cables as I do today.

A stronger OMS 2.3.9 ? Or a better FreeMIDI?

I can only see things from my perspective as DAW user.

Maybe even a flash hacked to report as actual (like in OSX PPC) could help some users willing to run desktop sites instead of mobiles with classilla or IE.

Trying to add too many things to Classic OS were too much for ALL Apple Inc. See Copland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29 .It was the bed for Jobs return to Apple, as most of the new features were present on NeXT OS

I also do look at it from a DAW perspective, as well as can I do this sort of thing.  The hack for flash could be interesting.  I'm curious though if it's worth it as most flash content at this point is requiring a version of flash that is fairly new, and all though you can trick it into working, I've found the performance on to be terrible, but that is just the experience i have had.
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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 07:32:22 AM »
Any light over the files missing on the wayback machine? You said you had something not covered yet. My sources are here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1931.0

I have two drives I keep all my documents I've amassed for this project.  Apparently one bit the dust and it had some of this stuff on it.
I found most of it through google so I'll try to pull it up.

One thing I hadn't seen posted is this.
https://www.hackcanada.com/whacked/index.html
(Warning some of the links on that site are NSFW)

Specifically this is a tutorial on cracking.  More useful as a tutorial on disassembling.
https://www.hackcanada.com/whacked/Cracking/BasicMacCracking_1-4.sit.bin

Other documents I have are Inside Macintosh.
2 versions.  One from macos8 era and one with updates for OS 9.

I've also got the documentation on the Book E ISA for Power PC and the documents outline the ISA for basic PowerPC functionality.
I've also downloaded the developer.apple.com archive that as been referenced around here.  I've found the most useful stuff in the legacy folder in that.

For anyone wanting to learn more about Forth and Open Firmware
http://www.netneurotic.de/mac/openfirmware.html

Most of what I am using as far as documentation is Inside Macintosh, the Book E ISA spec and output from Macsbug.

Most other documents/info I'm finding is too old (like System 7 era) or inaccurate.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2015, 09:15:17 AM »
Anyway, my first request for an 9.3 will be to implement the IP - midi rendezvous thing present since tiger to have networked machines midi connected via lan instead of plain midi cables as I do today.

Quote
A stronger OMS 2.3.9 ? Or a better FreeMIDI?

Quote
Maybe even a flash hacked to report as actual (like in OSX PPC) could help some users willing to run desktop sites instead of mobiles with classilla or IE.

Even Though these can be interesting things, nothing has to do with a Operating System by it self.
You should post a separate post for each one. Maybe you can achieve some answers ...  ;)

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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2015, 10:34:17 AM »
OK. Focus on NanopicoOS 9.3

Can we ask for things from Copland?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29

Quote
Following Hancock's plan, development of System 7.5 continued, with a number of technologies originally slated for Copland being incorporated into the base OS. Apple embarked on a buying campaign, acquiring the rights to various third-party system enhancements and integrating them into the OS. The Extensions Manager, hierarchical Apple menu, collapsing windows, the menu bar clock, sticky notes — all were developed outside of Apple. Stability and performance were improved by Mac OS 7.6, which dropped the "System" moniker.[37] Eventually, many features developed for Copland, including the new Finder and support for themes (the default Platinum was the only theme included) were rolled into Mac OS 7.7, which was rebranded as Mac OS 8.

With the return of Jobs, this rebranding also allowed Apple to exploit a legal loophole to terminate third-party manufacturers' licenses to System 7 and effectively shut down the Macintosh clone market.[38] Later, Mac OS 8.1 finally added the new filesystem and Mac OS 8.6 updated the nanokernel to handle preemptive tasks. Its interface was Multiprocessing Services 2.x and later, but there was still no process separation and the system still used cooperative multitasking between processes. Even a process that was Multiprocessing Services-aware still had a portion that ran in the blue box, a task that also ran all single-threaded programs (and the only task that could run 68k code).

The Rhapsody project was cancelled after several developer preview releases, support for running on non-Macintosh platforms was dropped, and it was eventually released as Mac OS X Server 1.0. In 2001 this foundation was coupled to the Carbon library and Aqua user interface to form the modern Mac OS X product. Prior to the Intel release of Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger), Mac OS X also used the 'rootless blue box' concept in the form of Classic to run applications written for older versions of Mac OS. A number of features originally seen in Copland demos, including its advanced Find command, built-in Internet browser, "piles" of folders and support for video-conferencing, have reappeared in recent releases of Mac OS X as Spotlight, Safari, Stacks, and iChat AV, respectively, although the implementation and user interface for each feature is completely different.

Some Copland specs were in Tiger or Panther or Jaguar. Even some on 9.2.2
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2015, 10:41:59 AM »
Anyway, my first request for an 9.3 will be to implement the IP - midi rendezvous thing present since tiger to have networked machines midi connected via lan instead of plain midi cables as I do today.

Quote
A stronger OMS 2.3.9 ? Or a better FreeMIDI?

Quote
Maybe even a flash hacked to report as actual (like in OSX PPC) could help some users willing to run desktop sites instead of mobiles with classilla or IE.

Even Though these can be interesting things, nothing has to do with a Operating System by it self.
You should post a separate post for each one. Maybe you can achieve some answers ...  ;)

Dude I was actually just thinking about this same thing this morning.  I will definitely take this suggestion.  I'll also make a post on outline what is OS and what is not.  I'm willing to work on both, but I don't have much free time with a family, and a full time job as a Sr Developer (which always seems to take much more than 40 hrs/week) so I'll have to see where the interests lay from users to decide where I'll put my efforts.  What do you think of the idea of a poll with some OS features and a separate one for non-os related requests?

OK. Focus on NanopicoOS 9.3

Can we ask for things from Copland?

Yes, but I'm still in an investigative mode to figure out the best way to implement various things and where some of the internal things are.
At this point I'm open to all requests as long as everyone understand that they might not all be done. And as MacTron pointed out, some of these are not OS, but would be nice.
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 10:56:10 AM »
  What do you think of the idea of a poll with some OS features and a separate one for non-os related requests?


Great! I love polls! Maybe it would be clearer if we all know what is Mac OS 9.2.2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9

Quote
Apple billed Mac OS 9 as including "50 New Features" and heavily marketed its Sherlock 2 software, which introduced a 'channels' feature for searching different online resources and introduced a QuickTime-like metallic appearance. Mac OS 9 also featured integrated support for Apple’s suite of Internet services known as iTools (later re-branded as .Mac, then MobileMe, which was replaced by iCloud) and included improved TCP/IP functionality with Open Transport 2.5.

Other features new to Mac OS 9 include:[5]

    Integrated support for multiple user accounts without using At Ease.
    Support for voice login through VoicePrint passwords.
    Keychain, a feature allowing users to save passwords and textual data encrypted in protected keychains.
    A Software Update control panel for automatic download and installation of Apple system software updates.
    A redesigned Sound control panel and support for USB audio.
    Speakable Items 2.0, also known as PlainTalk, featuring improved speech synthesis and recognition along with AppleScript integration.[6]
    Improved font management through FontSync.
    Remote Access Personal Server 3.5, including support for TCP/IP clients over Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP).
    An updated version of AppleScript with support for TCP/IP.
    Personal File Sharing over TCP/IP.
    USB Printer Sharing, a control panel allowing certain USB printers to be shared across a TCP/IP network.
    128-bit file encryption in the Finder.
    Support for files larger than 2 GB.
    Unix volume support.
    CD Burning in the Finder (introduced in Mac OS 9.1).
    Addition of a 'Window' menu to the Finder (introduced in Mac OS 9.1)

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9#Version_history
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 10:59:36 AM »
  What do you think of the idea of a poll with some OS features and a separate one for non-os related requests?


Great! I love polls! Maybe it would be clearer if we all know what is Mac OS 9.2.2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9

Quote
Apple billed Mac OS 9 as including "50 New Features" and heavily marketed its Sherlock 2 software, which introduced a 'channels' feature for searching different online resources and introduced a QuickTime-like metallic appearance. Mac OS 9 also featured integrated support for Apple’s suite of Internet services known as iTools (later re-branded as .Mac, then MobileMe, which was replaced by iCloud) and included improved TCP/IP functionality with Open Transport 2.5.

Other features new to Mac OS 9 include:[5]

    Integrated support for multiple user accounts without using At Ease.
    Support for voice login through VoicePrint passwords.
    Keychain, a feature allowing users to save passwords and textual data encrypted in protected keychains.
    A Software Update control panel for automatic download and installation of Apple system software updates.
    A redesigned Sound control panel and support for USB audio.
    Speakable Items 2.0, also known as PlainTalk, featuring improved speech synthesis and recognition along with AppleScript integration.[6]
    Improved font management through FontSync.
    Remote Access Personal Server 3.5, including support for TCP/IP clients over Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP).
    An updated version of AppleScript with support for TCP/IP.
    Personal File Sharing over TCP/IP.
    USB Printer Sharing, a control panel allowing certain USB printers to be shared across a TCP/IP network.
    128-bit file encryption in the Finder.
    Support for files larger than 2 GB.
    Unix volume support.
    CD Burning in the Finder (introduced in Mac OS 9.1).
    Addition of a 'Window' menu to the Finder (introduced in Mac OS 9.1)

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9#Version_history

Thanks.  I'm going to copy that over to the OS Development Request thread.

All requests should go to these threads now.
OS Level Requests
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2837.msg17840;

Non-OS, All Other Requests
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2838.msg17842;
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Offline Front 424

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2015, 09:07:59 PM »
I haven't really given an update as I don't have any thing to show at this point.

Au contraire!  Seems as if you have been busy figuring out a lot of things, that's definitely something to show.

After nearly 2 months of silence on this thread, my simple post provoked a flurry of new discussion I was surprised to see!

Very interesting, all of this.  I totally wish I could assist in this project.

Interesting also to see the two new threads about features/requests.  This a sign of progress, I do declare!  ;)

My very best to nanopico and all involved in this ambitious undertaking, as well as the forum in general.

Offline iMic

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2015, 08:39:43 PM »
Most of the development work I produced was from trial and error, seeing what would boot a system and what would cause it to fail. From what I can see in Nanopico's work they have a much better grasp of what needs to be done and where to find it in the system. Perhaps we may actually see some progress provided we focus on a few select areas to start with instead of attempting to cover all bases at once.

I had considered reopening this project and doing some additional work on it, but it was reaching the limits of my knowledge the last time I worked on it, so it's great to see someone more skilled working on this ongoing project as well.

Offline Front 424

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2015, 01:27:35 AM »
iMic, me agrees with you!
Nanopico definitely has some low-level skills.  Machine-level that is!  ;D 
At least he is figuring some stuff out.  Too bad there aren't more people who could give him the assistance needed with that kind of knowledge.  Not exactly an easy job for one person.

I've been thinking that there must be some old school PPC mac programmers floating around somewhere that could at least give some advice on the inner OS and processor specific workings.  Anyone else thought that?  I know they must be out there.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2015, 06:18:25 AM »
iMic, me agrees with you!
Nanopico definitely has some low-level skills.  Machine-level that is!  ;D 
At least he is figuring some stuff out.  Too bad there aren't more people who could give him the assistance needed with that kind of knowledge.  Not exactly an easy job for one person.

I've been thinking that there must be some old school PPC mac programmers floating around somewhere that could at least give some advice on the inner OS and processor specific workings.  Anyone else thought that?  I know they must be out there.

iMic, me agrees with you!
Nanopico definitely has some low-level skills.  Machine-level that is!  ;D 
At least he is figuring some stuff out.  Too bad there aren't more people who could give him the assistance needed with that kind of knowledge.  Not exactly an easy job for one person.

I've been thinking that there must be some old school PPC mac programmers floating around somewhere that could at least give some advice on the inner OS and processor specific workings.  Anyone else thought that?  I know they must be out there.

Thanks for the kind words.  Definitely feeling the support of this community.  Just hope I can pull off at least something in a reasonable time.

It sure would be fun to talk with any of the dev's that originally worked on any of the classic OS's on PPC and to get an idea of internal designs that are not publicly document.  If any one has names of them I'd be more than willing to reach out to them (though I'm sure because of NDA's I would probably not be able to get much info).
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2015, 06:47:37 AM »
On the posted MacWorld number 1 we can see
Quote
the dev's that originally worked on any of the classic OS's on PPC

the ones that worked on 68k original mac. We could try to contact Steve Capps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Capps, for example.

Andy Hertzfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hertzfeld

 Maybe we can expand that list. The last number published of MacWorld on vintageapple.org are untill the G3 B&W, so maybe there is more info.

I am afraid that the OS 8-9 developers are not thinking on OS9 anymore.

The same for ATI-nVidia developers, but we will keep the faith.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2015, 07:24:01 AM »
On the posted MacWorld number 1 we can see
Quote
the dev's that originally worked on any of the classic OS's on PPC

the ones that worked on 68k original mac. We could try to contact Steve Capps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Capps, for example.

Andy Hertzfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hertzfeld

 Maybe we can expand that list. The last number published of MacWorld on vintageapple.org are untill the G3 B&W, so maybe there is more info.

I am afraid that the OS 8-9 developers are not thinking on OS9 anymore.

The same for ATI-nVidia developers, but we will keep the faith.
It would be interesting to talk with them (if at all possible) and see if they know how much has changed since the original mac os Andy left apple in '84 so he might not know a lot about later development (but still an interesting person to talk with I bet) and Steve left in '96 so he would definitly be of interest (though he was working on newton towards the end of his days at apple).

Eric Traut wrote the 68k emulator used in 8.6 and up.  He would definitly have some knowledge about the parts of the system that I am of interest in.

Eric work's at Microsoft now.
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Offline Front 424

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2015, 01:01:17 AM »

Thanks for the kind words.  Definitely feeling the support of this community.  Just hope I can pull off at least something in a reasonable time.

Since all some of us can do is give encouragement anyway, hope it has a positive effect!

Quote
It sure would be fun to talk with any of the dev's that originally worked on any of the classic OS's on PPC and to get an idea of internal designs that are not publicly document.  If any one has names of them I'd be more than willing to reach out to them (though I'm sure because of NDA's I would probably not be able to get much info).

NDA's... never gave it much thought, but a possibility.
OS developers is a bit more ambitious than what I had in mind.. I was thinking maybe some seasoned classic programmers hanging out at some forum somewhere that might like a challenge (there has to be a developer community in a similar vein to this and other OS 9 venues), but the actual original architects of the thing wouldn't hurt, either.  ;)

Offline DieHard

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2015, 12:23:20 AM »
All I can Say is Santa (Diehard) is gonna send Nanopico some good stuff... he has been a very good boy this year :)

Offline GigaG

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2015, 09:23:43 AM »
I'd love to see Mac OS 9 be brought into the modern age. It's nice to see people interested in developing new or updated software (like Classilla) for the OS.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2015, 11:32:55 AM »

I've been thinking that there must be some old school PPC mac programmers floating around somewhere that could at least give some advice on the inner OS and processor specific workings.  Anyone else thought that?  I know they must be out there.

I tried to contact torvan but he didn't replied me about

Well, my name is Troy, and I have been on this earth for 47 years now, which means-yeah, I go back to the original Macintosh although my first one was the Mac Plus. Now i have 13 Macs ranging from that Plus to the 2014 Mini i7. I am running everything from System 6 to 10.11.1.

But out of all of them, it is OS9 that still has my heart. the way you can customize the look and feel, the speed it has on modernish hardware, and the apps designed by folks who knew what "Think Different" really meant. Plus machines that reflected personality as opposed to the prison like feel of the modern design. There is only so many rectangle aluminum boxes one can have. . . . .

I have worked for the other camp (Microsoft) in the MBU (Mac Business Unit) for way too many years before moving to Wachovia (more money, better schedule, closer commute) which as you know went up in flames during the housing crises earlier this decade. Since then I have been a stay-at-home husband and find this career is much more to my likes. 

But then again, I do "Think Different" anyway, and that is why I am a Mac man.

That remind me the old Microsoft MCU and remind me old youtube videos of MacOS8-9 MacWorld.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZzkf-IReM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZzkf-IReM</a>
Ben Waldman 49:35 probably know a few MacOS9 developers he is still alive. He is on facebook with Hillary Clinton on some photos, but I can't get in contact to.
https://www.facebook.com/BenWaldman?fref=ts


Other Mac OS known developer is Theodore Gray

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematica
Quote
Mathematica is split into two parts, the kernel and the front end. The kernel interprets expressions (Wolfram Language code) and returns result expressions.

The front end, designed by Theodore Gray, provides a GUI, which allows the creation and editing of Notebook documents containing program code with prettyprinting, formatted text together with results including typeset mathematics, graphics, GUI components, tables, and sounds. All content and formatting can be generated algorithmically or edited interactively. Most standard word processing capabilities are supported. It includes a spell-checker but does not spell check automatically as you type.

On wikipedia I cant see it working for Mac OS but on wayback machine
https://web.archive.org/web/20000817041956/http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/what.html
Quote
Mathematica runs on an unusually wide array of operating systems: Windows 95/98/NT/2000, Mac OS, Linux, SunOS/Solaris, HP-UX, IRIX, AIX, Digital Unix, and compatible systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Gray
http://home.theodoregray.com/contact/

Quote
Finally, if you actually want to email me, you can do that at theodore@theodoregray.com. This goes directly to me, no filters other than spam filtering, no one checks it first. I am at your mercy.

Maybe he could lead us to documentation from Apple itself. He has been a OSX developer and iOS developer too, but maybe if someone reach him in a nostalgic day, we could get something. Maybe he can recall old colleages.  ;D

One thing is sure. Developers keep studying daily for them to be updated to sell products for the latest technology and not get themself obsolete, while some musicians can be happy with a 20 years old OS. We are different kind of Mac lovers!

In fact, any  CoreImage card going OS9 with 2D and 3D accel would be a gift.

you wont even get those to run under OSX, because all of them are aready x8. i think it is possible to use the PCI version of the geforce 5 in a G4, but it would run slower than a geforce 3 in a x4 slot and it would probably not support any kind of acceleration under OS9. you could as well use no graphics card at all.

I think all G4 wears up to AGPx4. Since the Gigabit Ethernet the AGPx4 were modded to help ADC monitors. This Mac http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.42_dp_mdd.html could be built to order to a Radeon 9700 Pro.
From http://themacelite.wikidot.com/ati-radeon I see 9500, 9600, 9700, 9800 and FireGL X3-256MB
From http://themacelite.wikidot.com/nvidia-geforce I see a lot too

The complete list is on http://themacelite.wikidot.com/wikidownloads2 Just look PPC

We need to get to the nVidia and ATI developers on that age too. They could  help with PowerPC OSX cards to have accel 2D and 3D in OS9.

To my knowledge the lack of modern drivers has left out all ALU powerbooks, ALL iBooks G4 and all iMac G4 past the 700/800Mhz modell.

You can check the graphics chipset in first ALU books should be OS9 able.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/index-powerbook-g4.html

This PowerBook G4 867 12" http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_867_12.html has NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go and GeForce4 IS WORKING ON TOWERS
All I can Say is Santa (Diehard) is gonna send Nanopico some good stuff... he has been a very good boy this year :)
he has been a very good boy
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2015, 12:20:25 PM »
One thing is sure. Developers keep studying daily for them to be updated to sell products for the latest technology and not get themself obsolete, while some musicians can be happy with a 20 years old OS. We are different kind of Mac lovers!

This is very true, sort of.  Yes we are always studying to move forward and keep up so we don't become trapped in a corner.
The info learned over the years doesn't disappear, it may take a bit to recall it but it usually comes back pretty quick.
Most developers who are at least somewhat good, will learn concepts and general rules on how things work. Beyond that it's just another language and there really isn't a lot of difference.  If you specialize in OS dev, there are lot of concepts that are the same between modern OS's and 40 year old OS's, it's usually just the implementation that differs.  (Yes I am aware there are many many differences between modern software and ancient software, but the concepts of a lot of them are the same).

To me the hardest thing as a dev is not so much keeping up with the latest stuff, but learning old stuff that has little for documentation that can be found any more.  I've been a professional developer for the past 15 years.  I get paid for creating enterprise level applications.  One of the things we specialize in is porting legacy applications.  So I have to learn languages and systems from 15-30 years ago to know how they work so I can bring them up to the modern age.  This is what I do every single day. I've spent a lot of my own time learning, studying and exploring OS development.

Point is that with my background of being able to dig into old systems and learn them,  the level of knowledge I've attained in OS concepts and my love for Mac OS 9 is the big reason why I have decided to tackle this huge undertaking of extending the OS.
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Offline Jakl

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2015, 07:41:22 PM »
Keep up the good work - I know I can only speak for myself but I appreciate all the effort you're putting in - from the bottom of my heart.  8)

Offline IIO

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2015, 08:42:28 PM »
lots

not sure what your point is. the geforce 4 is the card which G4 were mainly shipped with, so it should not be a surprise that it works.

only x8 cards dont work in OS9 because they dont like x4 slots.
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Offline nsputnik

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2015, 09:25:23 PM »
I think you all might better spend your time expanding SheepShaver.  Getting USB working through the host machine would be wonderful.  The fact is that the hardware machines that would run a 9.3 will not last forever and there are few parts available to fix them.  But SheepShaver can last forever, even if the host OS's are abandoned there will probably be emulators, allowing for nested emulation.

Or, if Steve Chamberlin and Till Harbaum can help or recommend some way to have a hobbyist PPC computer manufactured and then firmware written as they have with MIST FPGA 68k I can see 9.3 making sense.
http://www.bigmessowires.com/2015/10/22/plus-too-mac-replica-new-progress/
http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1272302-are-there-any-powerpc-dev-boards-for-hobbyists/

Maybe it can run on this?
https://www.power.org/solution/p-cubed/

Here is a new emulator that seems to be a sort of MAME for computers:
http://wiki.qemu.org/Main_Page

Thats good since this project seemed to be stalled out: http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/about.html
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 10:05:23 PM by nsputnik »
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Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2015, 05:13:17 AM »
I think you all might better spend your time expanding SheepShaver.  Getting USB working through the host machine would be wonderful.  The fact is that the hardware machines that would run a 9.3 will not last forever and there are few parts available to fix them.  But SheepShaver can last forever, even if the host OS's are abandoned there will probably be emulators, allowing for nested emulation.

Or, if Steve Chamberlin and Till Harbaum can help or recommend some way to have a hobbyist PPC computer manufactured and then firmware written as they have with MIST FPGA 68k I can see 9.3 making sense.
http://www.bigmessowires.com/2015/10/22/plus-too-mac-replica-new-progress/
http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1272302-are-there-any-powerpc-dev-boards-for-hobbyists/

Maybe it can run on this?
https://www.power.org/solution/p-cubed/

Here is a new emulator that seems to be a sort of MAME for computers:
http://wiki.qemu.org/Main_Page

Thats good since this project seemed to be stalled out: http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/about.html

This may be true, but there are three reasons for targeting the OS to update.
1. To support newer hardware so that we are not dependent on old hardware that will become more and more scarce.
2. Updating the OS can actually add improvements to make it work better under emulations.
3. It's a challenge that's fun.

I have considered offering to help with Sheepshaver in the future.  Having a more detailed understanding of the OS to run in an emulator can help improve the emulator as well.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline Mat

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2015, 05:56:33 AM »
nsputnik , I´d like that you consider a few more thoughts about your posting:

•) Emulation
Emulation is never the real thing! I´ve never used Sheepshaver, but my experiances with "Classic" from Mac OS X show me that this is not comparable with a native OS!
I don´t think that with a reasonable amout of work a good PPC emulator can be done that makes Mac OS 9 really usable for everyday task.

•) We are not talking about Retro Hardware! People are really using their Mac OS 9! All the hardware stuff for music for example (see the Protools hardware, ...) will never be usable with an Emulator or an FPGA machine.

•) FPGA/MiST
The MiST is a nice plattform for 80ies Atari Stuff (games,...), but it has even not enough computing power for real recent Atari programs, if we are talking about modern Atari-usage. If it comes to Internet usage, it is totally underpowered, and we are even not talking about FreeMiNT usage (a modern Atari Multitasking System). The situation with FPGAs will not change much in near future, and a G4 will not be outpowered by any End-User-FPGA in the next 15 to 20 years. Beside the fact, that modelling a G4 core is a real huge task! You would need a good team working on it for years! Se how long Wolfgang Förster needed for the 68030 for his Suska boards (and the MiST just got a 68000), can you imagine how complicated a G4 core woudl be? Belive me I know what I am talking about.

•) Hardware Availability
You get G4s for free or the real good stuff like MDDs for 100 bucks recently. And not many people like to use them recently. We are taking about 30 Million computers or something that can boot Mac OS 9 natiely. I am quite sure that the availability of native Mac OS 9 hardware is of no concern the next one or two decades.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2015, 07:30:41 AM »
I think you all might better spend your time expanding SheepShaver.
We have real hardware with G4s between 1Ghz and 2Ghz, therefore emulators like SheepShaver are absolute out of business, especially if they run in x86 CPUs that can't actually emulate a  PPC, the future ARM version may have a better lucky ...
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2015, 09:54:37 AM »
Dear nsputnik,

Please do not feel like we are beating you up, and we do appreciate your input... but I will quote myself from our main website in response to your post...

Quote
There is no "Class" in "Classic"
Without getting too bogged down in the technical jargon; the computer must be capable of booting to Mac OS 9 directly and without OS X present whatsoever. This is as opposed to running OS 9 via the “Classic Environment” (a hardware and software abstraction layer in Mac OS X that allows OS 9 applications to run on Mac OS X). The main problem with Classic is that it does not allow the direct access to hard drives and audio cards (if you're building an audio or video studio Mac). Retro gaming also benefits greatly from booting directly to OS 9. Tiger was the last to support the Classic Environment and Leopard and Lion need to "shave sheep," so take my advise and spend less money and get some classic hardware for your classic OS

Offline nsputnik

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2015, 10:05:49 AM »
nsputnik , I´d like that you consider a few more thoughts about your posting:

•) Hardware Availability
You get G4s for free or the real good stuff like MDDs for 100 bucks recently. And not many people like to use them recently. We are taking about 30 Million computers or something that can boot Mac OS 9 natively. I am quite sure that the availability of native Mac OS 9 hardware is of no concern the next one or two decades.

OK, I get it but it but let's be honest, most of those machines are in landfills, as much as it pains me to think about this.  And what happens when a power supply goes out?  These machines are ok for the time being but the goal should be to eventually migrate to modern hardware like PCubed (if it is actually available).
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Offline nsputnik

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2015, 10:07:50 AM »
nsputnik , I´d like that you consider a few more thoughts about your posting:

•) FPGA/MiST


I am not suggesting you get OS9 to run on FPGA/MiST, I know it will not work. But on something modern like PCubed https://www.power.org/solution/p-cubed/
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Offline nsputnik

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2015, 10:10:55 AM »

This may be true, but there are three reasons for targeting the OS to update.
1. To support newer hardware so that we are not dependent on old hardware that will become more and more scarce.
2. Updating the OS can actually add improvements to make it work better under emulations.
3. It's a challenge that's fun.

I have considered offering to help with Sheepshaver in the future.  Having a more detailed understanding of the OS to run in an emulator can help improve the emulator as well.

Ok, point taken, everyone.
Classic as my primary platform: 1988 - 2005

Offline Mat

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2015, 10:52:55 AM »
These machines are ok for the time being but the goal should be to eventually migrate to modern hardware like PCubed (if it is actually available).
I really belive that your analysis is wrong. There is no problem in getting Mac Os 9 hardware at all. Have a look at the 68k Macs. There is no problem to get 68k Macs as well, and those are 20 years old now. I can send you some 68k Macs if you need them ;)
The point I am seeing is that the availability of High End upgrades is bad. Some 2GHz G4s would be needed for a reasonaable price, sure. But as said there are enough MDDs out there working quite well. Any "development energy" is - in my opinion - better used for the user experiance, some file format problems and such, than in trying to bring Mac OS 9 to a new unsupported hardware.

I am not suggesting you get OS9 to run on FPGA/MiST, I know it will not work. But on something modern like PCubed https://www.power.org/solution/p-cubed/
I completely got your point, even in the first posting! And of course I had a look at the pcubed link.
I just wanted to make clear that the MiST is some underpowered Retro hardware, and of course not even as fast as some original Ataris like the TT from 1989 or the Falcon. It is a ST replacement, and there is much more needed for more modern computers like the TT/Falcon or an 68k Mac.
There is simply no chance the upcoming 10 or 15 years to use FPGAs (if we can agree that FPGA farms from chip manufacturers are out of the reach for endusers) - so we are talking about cheap - let´s say below 1000 Euro - FPGAs for configuring any modern PPC CPU.
And don´t forget that there are still "G4" CPUs in production and ongoing usage.

So; no, I do not see any point in wasting time (well at least it is always the time and decision of the inolved developers and not ours to decide) with any shaggy emulator or underpowered and yet incompatible hardware.

What we would need is some cheap hardware upgrades, or OS modifications to run our OS at G5s or such fast hardware.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2015, 07:12:23 AM »
http://mcosre.sourceforge.net/index.html

McOS Re is a project dedicated to re-creation and improvement of the Traditional Mac OS.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2015, 08:03:57 AM »
http://mcosre.sourceforge.net/index.html

McOS Re is a project dedicated to re-creation and improvement of the Traditional Mac OS.

I reached out to this guy to collaborate.  We'll see what happens.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline cc333

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Re: Any one want to help build a community made OS 9.3?
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2015, 09:33:49 PM »
I think this is spectacular!

I've been following iMic's thread over at TC, and I even tested a few things for him (I have an A1106 AlBook, and a few 12" AlBooks that make for perfect testing grounds). That being said, I'd be glad to try things out on here if anybody comes up with anything (such as patched Mac OS ROMs).

Let's keep up the good work! I'd *love* to see Mac Os 9 boot natively on my Quad G5!!

c