Author Topic: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades  (Read 32476 times)

supernova777

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powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« on: November 16, 2013, 05:57:12 AM »
Archived copy of ppc mac upgrade cpus on everymac: (web archive links tend to be slow  :o)
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/
http://web.archive.org/web/20061201152704/http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/index.html
by manufacturer:
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/by_manufacturer/
by processor:
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/by_processor/powerpc7400.html
by system:
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/by_system/

heres the link for powerpc g4 74** upgrades
>>>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20061111091700/http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/by_processor/powerpc7400.html

ALL SONNET UPGRADES:
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=120#position_content



http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=g4+upgrade+%28processor%2C+newer%2C+powerlogix%2C+OWC%2C+sonnet%2C+encore%29+-microsoft+-intel+-hp+-amd+-samsung&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xg4+upgrade+%28processor%2C+newer+technology%2C+powerlogix%2C+OWC%2C+sonnet+encore%29+-micro.TRS0&_nkw=g4+upgrade+%28processor%2C+newer+technology%2C+powerlogix%2C+OWC%2C+sonnet+encore%29+-microsoft+-intel+-hp+-amd+-samsung&_sacat=0

check the link above to browse listings on ebay for upgraded processors up to dual 1.8ghz g4 i believe !

DUAL:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/fc6c3c290206637

pdf: http://web.archive.org/web/20051219042501im_/http://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_datasheets/duet_datasheet.pdf
keep in mind theres some type of app u have to run to check to see if your g4 motherboard will support a dual processor upgrade or not
this would be visible on the box if the pic was larger

SINGLE:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/20bd18290206638

pdf: http://web.archive.org/web/20051221062456im_/http://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_datasheets/encore_stg4_datasheet.pdf

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonnet-Encore-ST-G4-PowerPC-1-GHz-1000-2M-CPU-for-Apple-Mac-/271320297018?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 01:47:15 PM by chrisNova777 »

Knez

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 02:12:37 PM »
The Sonnet Dual G4's are a bad option for a MDD or FW800 G4. The Sonnet CPU's simply lacks L3 cache (and has less L2 cache than Apples CPUs) which makes for instance the dual 1.8ghz slower than a dual 1.42ghz G4 when doing CPU intensive tasks that uses alot of FPU power (using VSTi's, RTAS, rendering audio files etc).

I have an "original" Dual 1.25ghz board overclocked to 1.5ghz in my MDD. Have worked great the past two years I'v had it, even during the warmest summer days.

Go buy yourself a $50 original Dual 1.25ghz board and overclock it. It's the fastest and cheapest way to maximize the power of your MDD ;)


Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 02:50:32 PM »
The Sonnet CPU's simply lacks L3 cache (and has less L2 cache than Apples CPUs) which makes for instance the dual 1.8ghz slower than a dual 1.42ghz G4 when doing CPU intensive tasks that uses alot of FPU power (using VSTi's, RTAS, rendering audio files etc).
The sonnet Dual 1.8 is faster than any 7455@1.42. I'd tested my MDD@1.42 against Sonnet Dual 1.8 upgraded MDD of a friend of mine and the Sonnet was always faster. The things only become more equal when I'd overclocked mi MDD to 1.66. But the 7455@1.66 is unstable, at least in summertime :(

I have an "original" Dual 1.25ghz board overclocked to 1.5ghz in my MDD. Have worked great the past two years I'v had it, even during the warmest summer days.
I have a 1.25 (beige ring chip) overclocked to 1.5 working hard since 2005 without any problems too. But I have another 1.25 that can't pass 1.42 (grey ring chip). I also have another 1.25 with grey ring chip to test −when I have time− if the color of the "chip ring  " has something  to do with oveclock ability.
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Knez

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 02:57:22 PM »
That's strange. We benchmarked my friends 1.6ghz G4 against my dual 1.5ghz and mine allways came out faster.
What did you use to benchmark it? I just assumed that the 1.8ghz was a bit crap too :P

supernova777

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 03:54:16 PM »
perhaps one of you guys can do a thread for us on overclocking the mdd?
i have a dual 867 mdd... is it possible to do a safe overclock on it?

and re: The Sonnet Dual G4's are a bad option for a MDD or FW800 G4.
i think you are right thats probably why they dont list compatibility with these models on the front of the box
aiming the product at the lower g4s instead
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 01:34:13 PM by chris9Lives »

supernova777

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 04:46:27 PM »
The sonnet Dual 1.8 is faster than any 7455@1.42. I'd tested my MDD@1.42 against Sonnet Dual 1.8 upgraded MDD of a friend of mine and the Sonnet was always faster. The things only become more equal when I'd overclocked mi MDD to 1.66. But the 7455@1.66 is unstable, at least in summertime :(

the sonnet duet is a 7447A chip right i think??
7447A cames after 7455 i think?

Offline DieHard

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 11:31:45 PM »
Wow... I never noticed the "color" ring theory... I will look at all my MDDs (5 total) to check that out...

From personal experience, I spent many a late night up trying to hunt down some small Application issue or system instability due to 3rd party CPU upgrades...

I am now older and less bold, so I stick to stock apple CPUs only... I also agree that CPU cache is the key with audio apps & VSTis... bench a 733 QS against a 733 DA and the DA
will run circles around the Quicksilver... A Quicksilver 933 is the best (with no mods) when you compare the "Acoustic Noise to Power" ratio.  The MDD (if quieted down enough to be is the same room as a microphone) is still by far, my favorite  ;D

Back in the day, I setup many dual processor G4 systems for Video and graphic artists with awesome results, but as far as DAWs go, they seem to be more stable on single CPU G4s....please let me know if you guys have had luck with Cubase or PT being very stable on a Dual G4, and if so...what config ? (cause I tried many)

supernova777

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 01:27:31 AM »
The Sonnet CPU's simply lacks L3 cache (and has less L2 cache than Apples CPUs)
are you sure? review the info posted here re: L2 + L3 cache, its an image screengrab of the pdf also linked now:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/20bd18290206638

Knez

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 06:38:46 AM »
If you look at that PDF at the bottom left you see what I mean. The high-end CPU's  (1.8ghz single and dual) only have L2 cache, which is 512kb.
The Apple CPU's have 256kb L2 and 2mb L3 cache, this makes a HUGE difference when doing for instance FPU intensive tasks.

Hence the Dual 1.5ghz (overclocked 1.25ghz) being the over all winner in speed and in price.

EDIT:
MacTron, what did you use to benchmark the machines?

Here's a selection of my benchmarking of my computers running Geekbench 2 (OSX):
http://browser.primatelabs.com/user/32648

What I know, theres not one benchmarking app for OS9 that benchmarks accuratly.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:46:53 AM by Knez »

Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 12:36:50 PM »
Here we have the table with the results of the test "Cinebench 2003"

Sonnet@1.8G4@1.667
Rendering (Single CPU): 1631583.16%
Rendering (Multiple CPU):3092974.04%
Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 181190-4.74%
Shading (OpenGL Software) : 473494-4.25%
Shading (OpenGL Hardware) :474511-7.24%

The test was done in two MDD with Mac os 9.22. One with sonnet 7447A@1.824 dual and the other with 7455@1.42 Dual overclocked to 1.66.

The 7447A@1.824  win against the 7455@1.66 the "Rendering (single CPU)" test by a short 3.16 %. If 7455 are overclocked  at 1.5, the 7447A@1.824  win by 15%.
So in a MDD the sonnet 7447A@1.824 is comparable to a 7455@1.66 and faster than a 7455@1.5 and of course even more faster than a 7455@1.42.
If the diffence in speed worth the price of the sonnet, is other business.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 02:13:37 PM »

yeah u would think they dropped the L3 cache because they noticed that it wasnt making that much of a difference..

I don't know for sure, but removing L3 cach
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supernova777

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 02:19:48 PM »
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/encore_g4/encore_st_g4_1.2.html

i have an opportunity to grab this for 30$ and the bonus is it comes inside a whole new sawtooth hehehe
its got 256kb / 2mb cache so it should def be a huge improvement over 450mhz with 0kb L2 /1mb L3

 ;D

heres the list of other sonnet chips that were made:
http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/

Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 01:17:10 PM »
Wow... I never noticed the "color" ring theory... I will look at all my MDDs (5 total) to check that out...
Well, I'm not sure... but I have overclocked three single 1.25 CPU's, two of them achieve easily 1.5 Ghz and have both "gray ring" and the other one only hardly achieve 1.42 Ghz and have the "beige ring".
May be casual, but I think that the ring color has something to do with it. May be the gray ones were better series...
I have attached two pictures to better explain what grey and beige rings mean.
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Offline DieHard

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Hmmm... Arctic Silver Leakage...
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 08:36:17 PM »

I could be wrong, but I think your "Gray ring" version is simple a sloppy Arctic Silver job by Apple (or done later)... the beige ring is probably how they all looked at one time

I have personally seen this on many g4s and it is actually a real problem since the over application of Arctic Silver (which is conductive by the way) gets under the clear coating that surrounds the CPU on the daughter board and is now impossible to get out... too much conductive paste can kill the CPU if it spreads under the film to a large area... so the rule of thumb is to apply a very small amount that will spread just cover the CPU and not over-flow and to use the new high-tech non-condutive versions...

See Japmacs approach here...

http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/9AE7FE0E-0CF2-4A7C-8003-489B282582BC.html

Offline MacTron

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Re: Hmmm... Arctic Silver Leakage...
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2013, 08:23:42 AM »

I could be wrong, but I think your "Gray ring" version is simple a sloppy Arctic Silver job by Apple (or done later)... the beige ring is probably how they all looked at one time

I have personally seen this on many g4s and it is actually a real problem since the over application of Arctic Silver (which is conductive by the way) gets under the clear coating that surrounds the CPU on the daughter board and is now impossible to get out... too much conductive paste can kill the CPU if it spreads under the film to a large area... so the rule of thumb is to apply a very small amount that will spread just cover the CPU and not over-flow and to use the new high-tech non-condutive versions...

See Japmacs approach here...

http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/9AE7FE0E-0CF2-4A7C-8003-489B282582BC.html

The ring color remains after a careful thermal compound removal, even in those areas and below capacitors protected with transparent plastic.
I will attach a better picture when I can.
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Offline DieHard

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2013, 01:24:01 PM »
Wow...we have to look into this ring thing... maybe there are 2 different revs of the CPU daughter boards and one overclocks better

Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2013, 03:58:34 PM »
Wow...we have to look into this ring thing... maybe there are 2 different revs of the CPU daughter boards and one overclocks better
That's my theory. But I'm not sure −of course− I've tested it only in three 1.25 single.
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supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 10:03:57 PM »
i think what was missed here is that there are many different versions of the encore ST duet .. because i see this one on ebay and it has a different box design etc:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-G4-1-8-GHZ-UPGRADE-/251425662240?pt=CPUs&hash=item3a8a232520



compared this with:


supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 10:48:55 AM »
http://solitudo.net/hardware/manuals/encore_stg4_datasheet.pdf

heres the data sheet on the 1.2ghz cpu i hope to  be getting for nearly free..

from what i understand this cpu provides a geekbench score of 614.. in a sawtooth.. running at 100mhz fsb
which means it could probably perform alot faster in a 133mhz digital audio or qs

note the cache chart which indicates that the sonnet cpus all feature 2MB L3 up till the 1.4ghz model
and then afterwards on the 1.6ghz + 1.8ghz models the L3 is omitted but the L2 is bumped up to 512kb (double that of any stock apple cpu?)
perhaps in sonnets opinion... the performance gain of 512kb L2 makes 2MB L3 redundant?? ..  i think we've discussed this before tho;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 11:05:53 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 09:41:19 AM »
G-Celerator G4/1.3 Dual AGP/100 (5D-1213G) Specs
Giga Designs G-Celerator Dual
   
The Giga Designs G-Celerator G4/1.3 Dual AGP/100 features dual 1.3 GHz PowerPC 7455 (G4) processors (1.2 GHz overclocked to 1.3 GHz) each with AltiVec "Velocity Engine" vector processing units, 256k on-chip level 2 caches, and 2 MB backside level 3 caches. The card plugs into the processor socket provided by AGP-based, 100 MHz bus models in the Power Macintosh G4 series, replacing the original processor card. All upgrade cards in this series are designed so that both the bus and backside cache ratios can be adjusted.
   

G-Celerator G4/1.2 Dual AGP/133 (5D-1212Q) Specs
Giga Designs G-Celerator Dual
   
The Giga Designs G-Celerator G4/1.2 Dual AGP/133 features dual 1.2 GHz PowerPC 7455 (G4) processors (1.0 GHz overclocked to 1.2 GHz) each with AltiVec "Velocity Engine" vector processing units, 256k on-chip level 2 caches, and 2 MB backside level 3 caches. The card plugs into the processor socket provided by AGP-based, 133 MHz bus models in the Power Macintosh G4 series, replacing the original processor card. All upgrade cards in this series are designed so that both the bus and backside cache ratios can be adjusted.
   

« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 09:45:50 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2014, 09:48:11 AM »
G-Celerator G4/1.8 Dual AGP 7A (7AD-1418U) Specs



The Giga Designs G-Celerator G4/1.8 Dual AGP 7A features dual 1.8 GHz PowerPC 7447a (G4) processors (1.42 GHz overclocked to 1.8 GHz) each with an AltiVec "Velocity Engine" vector processing unit, and a 512k on-chip level 2 cache operating at the same speed as the processors. The card plugs into the processor socket provided by AGP-based (Sawtooth), Gigabit Ethernet, Digital Audio, Quicksilver, and Quicksilver 2002 Power Macintosh G4 models, replacing the original processor card. Please note that not all AGP-based (Sawtooth) systems are dual-processor compatible (they must have a uni-N of 7 or greater to be able use this card). All upgrade cards in this series are designed so that both the bus and backside cache ratios can be adjusted. Requires MacOS X 10.3.5 for installation, compatible with MacOS 9.2.2 but Giga Designs does not provide a warranty "third party software operations under OS 9". Another version, the 7AD-1416C, for the Power Macintosh G4 Cube is also available. It runs at 1.6 GHz and includes a Cube VRM upgrade and a low speed fan kit.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 09:57:49 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Totusek

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades - MDD
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 10:54:01 AM »
Whether trying to get a
Sonnet dual 1.8 GHz Encore/MDX G4 Duet
CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
[ http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/mirrored.jpg ],
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/xg4d_qsg.pdf
(see full range here) >>>> http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=120#position_content

or a Giga Design Dual 1.33 GHz 7455
CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
[ http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/giga-mdd.jpg ],

isn't one of the issues theses days, where to find them, to begin with ?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 12:19:30 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades - MDD
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 11:31:42 AM »
Whether trying to get a Sonnet dual 1.8 GHz Encore/MDX G4 Duet CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
 http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/mirrored.jpg ],
or a Giga Design Dual 1.33 GHz 7455 CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
[ http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/giga-mdd.jpg ],
isn't one of the issues theses days, where to find them, to begin with ?

i dont think u can upgrade a MDD tower.. only quicksilver, gigabit, digital audio, AGP(Sawtooth)
i think these ones u have linked are very rare..

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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 12:05:49 PM »
At that price, better to be stock and buy another MDD.
There is a thin line between cheaps PowerMacs and $$$$ Apple collectors CPU upgrades.
I will not cross that $$$$ line for sure. If you can make music with a G3 233-450 why spend 500-800 bucks on a 866 to 1.x upgrade?
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2014, 12:17:34 PM »
well there are MANY cpu upgrades.. some of them more common then others..
i personally havent seen any MDD upgrades on ebay for sale, EVER.

@mactron: i thought there was only one duet
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=315#position_content
the ST/DUET series i guess excludes the MDD
i had thought there was no MDD

so is this MDD DUET the one that we are seeing in teh benchmarks at the top?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 12:35:24 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 12:41:34 PM »
... If you can make music with a G3 233-450 why spend 500-800 bucks on a 866 to 1.x upgrade?
Each one has his own needs...
I made my first songs with a Mac LC (68020 @ 16 Mhz) and  now a days I easy exhaust my Sawtoth (Single 7448@2.0), MDD (Single 7455@1.5) & MDD (Dual 7455@1.66) only with midi tracks on Cubase and NI FM7 + NI Kompakt ;)
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Offline MacTron

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 01:06:32 PM »
so is this MDD DUET the one that we are seeing in teh benchmarks at the top?

If you mean to this:
Here we have the table with the results of the test "Cinebench 2003"

Sonnet@1.8G4@1.667
Rendering (Single CPU): 1631583.16%
Rendering (Multiple CPU):3092974.04%
Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 181190-4.74%
Shading (OpenGL Software) : 473494-4.25%
Shading (OpenGL Hardware) :474511-7.24%

The test was done in two MDD with Mac os 9.22. One with sonnet 7447A@1.824 dual and the other with 7455@1.42 Dual overclocked to 1.66.
Yes.
Some time ago Kameron Kaiser (the creator of Clasilla) and I, tried to see what is the most powerful Mac Os 9 machine ever made.  MDD with MDD DUET 7447@1.8 against my MDD 7455@1.66 Dual.
In my opinion only a 7448@2.0 machine can overpass this but only in some aspects, as the MDD is far better in almost everything.
I love all my Macs. I never count them all. But if the point is power and speed under Mac Os 9, don't loose your time, "those are the ones" ;)
I
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Offline Totusek

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades - MDD
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2014, 05:18:56 AM »
When I tried the links on the Office Secialties "Sonnet XG4D-1800 Encore/MDX Duet 1.8 GHz - Processor Upgrade G4" page, I got:

We are sorry, but the requested product is currently not available.
For more information visit our store at http://www.officespecialties.com/


Therefore, again it's not that this CPU upgrade for G4 MDD Towers doesn't exist, but theses days, it's where to find them...

Whether trying to get a Sonnet dual 1.8 GHz Encore/MDX G4 Duet CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
 http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/mirrored.jpg ],
or a Giga Design Dual 1.33 GHz 7455 CPU upgrade for a G4 MDD tower
[ http://lowendmac.com/musings/07/art/giga-mdd.jpg ],
isn't one of the issues theses days, where to find them, to begin with ?

i dont think u can upgrade a MDD tower...
Of course you can.
http://www.officespecialties.com/sonnet_xg4d_1800_encore_mdx_duet_1.8_ghz_processor_85649_prd1.htm

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2014, 10:05:10 AM »
our manuals directory is now public open + browsable.

u can view all the pdfs on sonnet cpu upgrades for instance at this url:
http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/manuals/hardware/sonnet/

Offline MacTron

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2014, 01:38:38 PM »
our manuals directory is now public open + browsable.
Great idea.
I've added 3 new manuals in NI folder, and created two new folders "MacOs" and "MusicTheory" and I'm adding some extra content to those new folders also.
Perhaps will be more convenient to start a new tread with this stuff...
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Offline DaCat

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2015, 11:04:43 AM »
Just got a Newer Technology Maxpower G4 7448 Dual 1.7Ghz Processor on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newer-Technology-Maxpower-G4-7448-Dual-1-7Ghz-Processor-/221721711338?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=2YCLlJuNJOY7TwM3n8vTLSwjevA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Installation with a firmware upgrade seems slightly tricky, also whenever one resets the PRAM apparently you have to redo the firmware, which is a slight hassle IMO.

Wanted to try this on my 2002 Quicksilver DP 1 GHz to see if it does much for Opcode Studio Vision, Digital Performer or BIAS Peak, granted even the stock Quicksilver is way more computer than the programs were designed for. I will also test out Digital Performer & Peak in Leopard.

From what I gather the last MDD that boots OS9 would likely outperform this setup, but considering a lot of Studio Vision Pro users seem to think >2002 G4 are overkill & unstable it will be interesting to see how this works, so far I've had no issues with these programs on the stock Quicksilver. I have two identical models so will test on my spare. The only difference in it has half a GB less memory & the slower video card, if everything works out OK I will make this one the new work machine and transfer the memory & video card over.
G4 Yikes!; (2) G4 Quicksilver DP 1 GHz; Early 2008 MBP 2.5 GHz 17"; MOTU 2408 MkIII; MOTU 828 MkII, MOTU 828 MkIII, Opcode Studio 5 LX; Opcode SVP 4.5.1; MOTU DP 5.5; BIAS Peak Pro 6; (2) Roland VM-C7100 mixers/processors linked; Roland DS-90A monitors; Sony VAIO VGC-RA716GY P4 3.20E GHZ HT with EMU 1212M PCI cards & Emulator X software; Akai S6000; Akai Z8; EMU Proteus MPS+; Yamaha DJ-X; Roland R-8M; misc. Roland Guitar & Bass synths; Roland D-110; Steinberger Spirit guitar; Boss GT-6; Roger Mayer Octavia

Offline IIO

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2015, 11:31:37 AM »
this is not what you want to hear atm. :) , but, to make best use of dual processor machines, use software which supports dual processors.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2015, 11:44:52 AM »
sweet cpu u got there!!

From what I gather the last MDD that boots OS9 would likely outperform this setup, but considering a lot of Studio Vision Pro users seem to think >2002 G4 are overkill & unstable it will be interesting to see how this works

only for stability with 1998 and before software.... for everything else (classic software coded from 2000-2004) MDD;s kick ass...

Offline MacTron

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2015, 12:15:00 PM »
this is not what you want to hear atm. :) , but, to make best use of dual processor machines, use software which supports dual processors.

None 7448 has ever worked in dual configuration in mac Os 9. AFAIK
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Offline GaryN

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2015, 11:38:30 PM »
The Sonnet Dual G4's are a bad option for a MDD or FW800 G4. The Sonnet CPU's simply lacks L3 cache (and has less L2 cache than Apples CPUs) which makes for instance the dual 1.8ghz slower than a dual 1.42ghz G4 when doing CPU intensive tasks that uses a lot of FPU power (using VST's, RTAS, rendering audio files etc).

I have an "original" Dual 1.25ghz board overclocked to 1.5ghz in my MDD. Have worked great the past two years I've had it, even during the warmest summer days.

Go buy yourself a $50 original Dual 1.25ghz board and overclock it. It's the fastest and cheapest way to maximize the power of your MDD ;)

I have a FW400 MDD. I started with a dual 1.25, replaced those with 1.42s, and finally I now have one of those rare bird Sonnet dual 1.8s.  I can say that without any question, my experience is that the Sonnet is measurably and empirically fastest in all aspects. This is true in both OS9 AND 10.5.8 - L1,2,3 caches and /or single or dual procs being present / used notwithstanding. Running the same software (which includes StudioVision, Peak, SonicWorx, etc. etc., many VST's, various iterations of Adobe Creative Suite and on and on) the speed bump on each upgrade was immediately apparent - especially with the Sonnet. In OS9 I have no concern about track counts or how many plugins in use. In OSX it almost feels like a G5. With TenFourFox's Quicktime extension, I get full-screen (1920 x 1200) glitch-free 720p video on YouTube all day long. My main bottlenecks now are the 7200rpm drives - my next upgrade will be 2 SSD's. I held my breath when I bought the Sonnet… it was NOT cheap, but it was well worth it. Over the years, I've gone all the way from a Mac Plus to what is the fastest OS9 config there is, as far as I can tell. The Sonnet is the engine that made it happen.

Offline MacTron

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Re: CPU Upgrades
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2015, 09:16:09 AM »
The Sonnet Dual G4's are a bad option for a MDD or FW800 G4. The Sonnet CPU's simply lacks L3 cache (and has less L2 cache than Apples CPUs) which makes for instance the dual 1.8ghz slower than a dual 1.42ghz G4 when doing CPU intensive tasks that uses a lot of FPU power (using VST's, RTAS, rendering audio files etc).

I have an "original" Dual 1.25ghz board overclocked to 1.5ghz in my MDD. Have worked great the past two years I've had it, even during the warmest summer days.

Go buy yourself a $50 original Dual 1.25ghz board and overclock it. It's the fastest and cheapest way to maximize the power of your MDD ;)

Well, the MDD overclocked at 1.5 is one of my favorite macs, it is fast, cheap and stable. But it is not as fast as the sonnet 1.8 upgraded MDD, so forget about 1.25 or 1.42.
This is the proof:


and compare it with GaryN Sonnet 1.8 upgraded MDD:


I have a FW400 MDD. I started with a dual 1.25, replaced those with 1.42s, and finally I now have one of those rare bird Sonnet dual 1.8s.  I can say that without any question, my experience is that the Sonnet is measurably and empirically fastest in all aspects. This is true in both OS9 AND 10.5.8 - L1,2,3 caches and /or single or dual procs being present / used notwithstanding.

Yes you are right, but in the comparison with the overclocked 1.66 or even the 1.5, the Sonnet 1.8 don't goes so far, especially in real task ...

But in my opinion,overclocking, buying an SSD and nVidia ti 4600 is the best way to greatly improve the performance of those MDDs.
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Offline IIO

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2015, 12:46:46 PM »

None 7448 has ever worked in dual configuration in mac Os 9. AFAIK

not sure what you mean by that.

however, what i tried to say before is that "if you mainly use vision and peak, you would have been fine with a single processor."
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline MacTron

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2015, 02:20:39 PM »

None 7448 has ever worked in dual configuration in mac Os 9. AFAIK
not sure what you mean by that.

If you install a dual 7448 upgrade, it only can work as a single CPU under Mac Os 9 due to a weird and unsolved incompatibility with "Apple CPU plugins" file.
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2015, 02:57:25 PM »

If you install a dual 7448 upgrade, it only can work as a single CPU under Mac Os 9 due to a weird and unsolved incompatibility with "Apple CPU plugins" file.

I thought it happened on all dual 7448 but Sonnet
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Offline IIO

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2015, 05:10:03 PM »
that is sick :(
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DaCat

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2015, 10:22:50 AM »
I'm going to be able to do some shootouts in both OSs with a variety of popular music DAWs, just bought an Apple G4 1.25 (MDD 2003) M8570 on eBay, the question I'm wondering is it looks like it has a Sonnet CPU upgrade though the outside Apple sticker lists it as the DP 1.25.

It came from a graphic design house so for an intensive use like graphics they might well have boosted the CPU. I will have to wait till the end of the month when I've paid to find out. The CPU is red colored and has a triangle logo that looks like Sonnet but I'm not familiar with them so not sure.

If anyone wants to take a guess you can see it here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Macintosh-G4-1-25-MDD-2003-M8570-/141627439029?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=h4phA1xR5CsQcJBLPJbux%252F2DKII%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
G4 Yikes!; (2) G4 Quicksilver DP 1 GHz; Early 2008 MBP 2.5 GHz 17"; MOTU 2408 MkIII; MOTU 828 MkII, MOTU 828 MkIII, Opcode Studio 5 LX; Opcode SVP 4.5.1; MOTU DP 5.5; BIAS Peak Pro 6; (2) Roland VM-C7100 mixers/processors linked; Roland DS-90A monitors; Sony VAIO VGC-RA716GY P4 3.20E GHZ HT with EMU 1212M PCI cards & Emulator X software; Akai S6000; Akai Z8; EMU Proteus MPS+; Yamaha DJ-X; Roland R-8M; misc. Roland Guitar & Bass synths; Roland D-110; Steinberger Spirit guitar; Boss GT-6; Roger Mayer Octavia

Offline Knezzen

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2015, 10:38:46 AM »
If it has a Sonnet CPU upgrade it's a very valuable one. The MDD upgrades didn't exist for very long on the market. The heat sink is also wrong for a Dual 1.25ghz model. That's the Dual 1.42ghz heatsink (copper).

If you ever want to sell the Sonnet upgrade, tell me! :)

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2015, 10:40:00 AM »


If anyone wants to take a guess you can see it

It seems the copper heatsink from the dual 1.42 machine.

Can't say any more with those pictures. It is a FW 400 model. Go to http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?board=62.0, pick up one and check if your CPU is the 1.25 dual original or a newer 1.42 dual as the heatsink suggest.
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Offline Knezzen

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2015, 11:37:23 AM »
Ah, now I get it... The block with the red triangle is just the stock heatsink ford the dual 1.42ghz MDD. This is an original apple part. You will have to remove the heatsink to see the CPU.

Just look in the menu "About this Mac" when you get it. If it's a Dual 1.25ghz G4, it's the stock CPU like it says in the listing.

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2015, 12:05:35 PM »
my single procssor 1.25 2003 definately doesnt have a copperheatsink  :'(
it must be a dual... i thought the fw800 machines were the only ones that came with copper heatsinks?

its most likely the stock dual 1.42 cpu from a fw800 thats been swapped in.. to be able to use the higher level cpu with mac os 9.. either that or they just somehow got given the copper heatsink .... the listing is definately wrong tho.. the 2003 mdd did not come with a copper heatsink!!!!!!

the dual 1.25 was introduced in 2002.. it must be the 1.25ghz dp 2002 model. but its confusing because it actually says 2003 on the back case...  so apparently they were still selling the 2002 dp in 2003..

supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2015, 01:04:04 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Sonnet-Encore-G4-CPU-upgrade-1-6ghz-XG4DG-1600-B01-MDD-XSERVE-/111640919194?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fe513c9a&nma=true&si=jGDsy0aZwHfdZY%252BSkp1uqfKAXds%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

here u see a sonnet mdd cpu upgrade for an xserve..
with its signature purple heatsink..

how is it they were able to make the heatsink so small
compared to the stock apple cpus

Offline Blazeoptimus

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2015, 10:38:18 AM »
here u see a sonnet mdd cpu upgrade for an xserve..
with its signature purple heatsink..

how is it they were able to make the heatsink so small
compared to the stock apple cpus

There is a couple of reasons the sonnet cooler is much smaller. The first is that it's using a 7447a chip.  The 7455 series ran hotter due to a higher power requirements (the 7455 was built on a 180nm process and the 7447a was built on a 130nm process - smaller process nodes require less power to operate).  It's the reason apple was able to stick a 1.67ghz part in a PowerBook G4 and it wouldn't overheat.  Imo, the cooler running processor is also a compelling secondary reason to upgrade to a sonnet mdx

The second is that this particular sonnet upgrade requires an active cooler (a fan, etc).  The 1.42 copper cooler is passive and depends on that small fan at the front of the case to provide enough air flow to dissipate it's heat.  As soon as you apply even a small dedicated fan to the built in cooler it becomes much more capable. 

Imo , the fastest technically possible upgrade for an MDD (to the best of my knowledge has never been made though) would have been a dual 7448 - which easily scaled to 2 ghz.  The built in 1mb cache, would have given the discreet 2mb l3 a run for it's money (or surpassed it).  As the mdd had the highest available FSB/memory bandwidth with MPU capabilities, it could have surpassed all other G4 implementations.  But I guess there just wasn't enough of a market for that type of an upgrade.

Offline GaryN

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2015, 10:20:15 PM »
The second is that this particular sonnet upgrade requires an active cooler (a fan, etc).  The 1.42 copper cooler is passive and depends on that small fan at the front of the case to provide enough air flow to dissipate it's heat.  As soon as you apply even a small dedicated fan to the built in cooler it becomes much more capable. 

Methinks you might be confusing the MDD with something else? The MDD has one big 120mm fan smack in the middle that ends up adjacent to the CPU sink when you close the case.
My Sonnet 1.8 runs all day long with just that fan.


supernova777

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2015, 10:25:42 PM »
i never said that?

Offline GaryN

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2015, 10:28:04 PM »
You're right - you didn't. That was Blazeoptimus. I don't know how it was attributed to you…

Offline GaryN

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2015, 10:28:40 PM »
AND WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-PowerMac-Sonnet-Encore-Duet-MDX-Dual-G4-CPU-upgrade-1-6ghz-MMD-and-XServe-/161711331572?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a6bf18f4

The $249 price reflects the rarity and the CPU is the earlier, slower 1.6GHz but there it is.
The seller is also showing a tiny fan on the heatsink that might fit on an Xserve but is unnecessary on an MDD.

Offline Blazeoptimus

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2015, 07:00:48 AM »
You're right - you didn't. That was Blazeoptimus. I don't know how it was attributed to you…

I think you quoted my quote maybe?  I figured the fan was probably pretty close, but in any case most of the mods for cooling listed on this site (or for CPUs in general) implement active cooling right on the cooler.  If you stuck a fan on the back of the cooler that pulled air through it, I feel certain that it heat dissipation would be better. Eh, it's just a thought. I tend to lean toward the 7447 has having a greater impact on heat generation.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2017, 12:06:38 PM »
At that price, better to be stock and buy another MDD.
There is a thin line between cheaps PowerMacs and $$$$ Apple collectors CPU upgrades.
I will not cross that $$$$ line for sure. If you can make music with a G3 233-450 why spend 500-800 bucks on a 866 to 1.x upgrade?

Just bought a 1.8 dual Sawtooth/GE with 1.75 Gigs of Ram mainly for its CPU.  My 4th G4 Dual.
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: powermac g4 CPU Upgrades
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2017, 04:26:15 PM »
Nice!! ;D