Author Topic: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...  (Read 14721 times)

supernova777

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revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« on: August 17, 2015, 05:09:55 AM »
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=400.0

i know ive brought this up before.. but im bringing it up once more!!
because for some reason im intrigued by the way i used to use DVD-RAM discs to back up my work at an advertising agency i used to work at.. I remember i was easily able to Erase + write on the fly to a DVD-RAM disc.. (one of the ones in plastic cartridges) and im fairly certain i used to do this using photoshop + illustrator on mac os 9.. it was around 1999-2001 that i remember doing this.. and it was the way we were told to backup our working files by the network administrator Tech lead of the agency..

now i know that alot of these older DVD-RAM drives are very slow.. but what im trying to figure out + the question that comes to mind for me now is.. if mac os 9 has built in support for DVD-RAM drives.. does this include both SCSI + IDE versions?? i believe so..
but will it support using DVD-RAM media on more modern FAST DVD-RAM drives such as those burners which specify DVD-RAM compatibility made by hitachi + LG

DVD-RAM media is hard to find nowadays.. elsewhere other then ebay that is.. BUT.. is it worth investigating? to be able to use it as an additional protection/backup that is erasable + rewritable... In my opinion yes!!! obviously due to capacity its not something u would want to use for backing up terrabytes of data.. but for important documents + project files.. this is perfect!!!!!!  rewritable DVDs are a pain in the ass because u have to WIPE the whole disk if u want to rewrite the disk.. BUT DVDRAM works just like a hard drive!! at least thast what i remember.. i remember being able to drag files to the trash off the DVDRAM disc + rewrite it as many times as u needed to.. which means u can fully edit the contents + organize it .. renaming folders + such .. massaging it till its perfect... the same way u would do this on a hard drive..

the newer Hitachi + LG drives that support DVD-RAM dont support Cartridge DVD-RAM media obviously as they load discs bare like any other DVD drive.. but u can buy single sided 4.7gb DVD-RAM disks .. and what im interested to figure out is..

a) will mac os 9 support a new modern DVD-RAM capable drive, using single sided DVD-RAM discs?
B) will it support it at the full MODERN speed regardless of using the old os?

going on newegg.ca and doing a search for dvd-ram i see this:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=dvd-ram&N=-1&isNodeId=1

10$ for 3 x 4.7GB DVD-RAM discs.. (single sided)

that means for 3.3$ each u can have these 4.7gb backup discs. reusable indefinately!!

still decent for backing up small size documents.. wav files.. samples... mp3s..  project files

Quote
Verbatim DVD-RAM media in a Type 4 Cartridge offers 4.7GB of rewritable storage capacity and superior recording quality.  This single-sided disc is encased in a protective (Type 4) cartridge.  The disc can be removed from the cartridge for playback in DVD-ROM drives which have DVD-RAM playback capability. Verbatim 4.7GB DVD-RAM 3X discs are compatible with drives and video recorders from Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, JVC, Samsung, LG and others.

4.7GB single-sided media in disc-removable Type 4 cartridge

3X high speed recording & high capacity data transfer

Store 120min of high quality DVD video

Phase change recording technology

Provides high reliability & random access editing

Drag & drop storage just like a hard disk

Write/rewrite more than 100,000 times

Hard coating protects disc from scratches and fingerprints

Designed for data intensive, high performance applications

Compatible with DVD-RAM drives and video recorders from Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, JVC, Samsung, and LG

it says the discs only support 3x disc burning speed

so basically to use this type of disc in a dvd-ram capable drive, (taken out of its cartridge) it acts just like a floppy disc/ hard disk!!! completely reusable / rewriteable.. by dragging files to the discs folders + deleting files by dragging to trash

does anyone here have any DVD-RAM capable burner in their G4?

does anyone here have any DVD-RAM media to try to test to see if the mac os will support the newer modern drives + media?


this is a "trick in the wall" (lol) that mac os 9 has that mac os x CANNOT do .. i remember reading that DVD-RAM support was not integrated into mac os x..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Jv9OdIjvQ[/youtube]

Offline mrhappy

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 08:03:44 AM »

for some reason im intrigued

Me too... now! ;D

supernova777

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 12:14:52 PM »
honestly.. its really a cool thing to be able to drag files + delete files from an optical disc..
in my opinion its how all rewritable cd/dvds should work on all operating systems!!!

but we have been fooled into accepting "Write-once" as the standard because they are CHEAPER to make... 

im really surprised that u guys arent more interested in this!!!

Offline DieHard

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 01:43:54 PM »
Quote
honestly.. its really a cool thing to be able to drag files + delete files from an optical disc..
in my opinion its how all rewritable cd/dvds should work on all operating systems!!!

You are very right... it is cool, and it should have been integrated into X... I remember back in the day setting up servers that had regular hard drives and also Magneto Optical storage (Optical Juke Box) and file requests would AUTOMATICALLY pull needed files off the Optical drive and copy to the Network volumes and then archive older files (when used rarely) and automatically copy them to the Optical drives....

Anyway, in today's world, with flash storage so cheap I prefer FW compact flash over optical; Optical is VERY SLOW in comparison

supernova777

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 04:14:51 PM »
true flash storage is cheaper then ever..
+ the compact flash firewire driver !!! i keep forgetting to order one.

but tbh government agencies + lawyers still use DVD-RAM because they last even longre then normal dvds...
i think DVD-RAM are said to last about 30-40 years!!! guaranteed it will outlast any compact flash or flash storage.

dvd-ram is a great way to store important documents.. like family photos, ancestry information,  identification records, anything thats important data that should not be lost!

check out this article :
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/

m-disc is the only one longer then DVD-RAM said to last theoretically up to 1000 years!!!
normal store bought are the WORST!!!
CDs and DVDs: 5-10 unrecorded 2-5 recorded
only 2-5 years guaranteed. horrible
article rates flash storage at 5-10 years before failure
floppy disk beats that! @ 10-20 years! lol

this article talks about rumors of companies developing a 300gb optical disk
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/bringing-back-the-dead-the-birth-of-the-new-optical-disk/

Quote
The two companies anticipate that they’ll be able to develop an optical disk that can record at least 300 GB by the end of 2015.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:14:22 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline DieHard

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 08:44:25 PM »
Thanks Chris, that was an awesome blog -afro-

I just checked some 25 year old floppy disks and they all read and verified with no errors

supernova777

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 10:19:17 PM »
Thanks Chris, that was an awesome blog -afro-

I just checked some 25 year old floppy disks and they all read and verified with no errors

i actually won some type of award from my school when i was about 10 years old back in 1988,
i did my school project on CDROM's. and my project was called "cd-rom optical storage, the medium of the future!"
i still haev it somewhere in a duotang binder, but it was going on and on about the amazing ability of cdroms to keep doubling + tripling storage capacity beyond that of a normal cd..  which blows me away because if they knew that was possible in 1988...
what else do they know that isnt made public!! being that 1988 was 27 years ago!!!

the real issue with dvd-ram is that they dont want people to use this media, because it doesnt go bad the way normal dvds do, they want us using the crappy ones that u can only use once and then throw out
anyways i still wish i could use normal dvds to copy one file at a time if i wanted to..

i remember there was a system for doing this with windows i think that let u do this drag files to the cd to burn
natively in the os, (seperate from Track at once TAO, or disk at once DAO)  using a windows "live filesystem" http://www.7tutorials.com/how-burn-files-and-folders-disc-windows-explorer http://www.howtogeek.com/126547/htg-explains-live-file-system-vs.-mastered-disc-formats-in-windows/
http://lifehacker.com/391598/live-file-system-turns-blank-discs-into-pseudo-flash-drives
i bet practically none of us uses optical media for incremental backup of small 'mission critical' type data anymore
but yea just pointing out the difference of DVD-ram to using TAO for incremenetal small burning 'tracks' onto a dvd..
dvd-ram is like the ultimate rewritable in that u can erase small portions of the disk and the files are truly erased + space re-claimed.. if u were to erase files frm a normal dvd u lose that amount from the total capacity of the disk obviously.. for backup this could be good tho because the data is technically still there and able to be read if u use a software that is able to select the older track indexes on the disk

the other older technology on windows i was trying to think of a second ago i think was called "packet writing" and this was prevalent back in the windows 98 days i think.. (which was the same time as mac os 9's prevalance)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=VKsAroUnIxsC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=packet+writing+windows+98&source=bl&ots=z2SkZhZx6w&sig=DhqotsNJdP9AJdpp2B_3Ma6jw1o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCmoVChMIheKhz_ixxwIVCEySCh3BzAFE#v=onepage&q=packet%20writing%20windows%2098&f=false

which was cool + new at the time but i guess now its just UDF format disks lol


ive never even had a blueray disc drive
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=bd-r&N=-1&isNodeId=1

65$ canadian for 50 discs.. hey thats not really so bad..
thats less then $2 per 25GB backup..
but thats 1.25 tb of backup but spread over 50 different discs.. hurtin
but the cost isnt so bad.. backing up 100gb of samples/software on 4 BD-Rs..
at a cost of 8$.. is pretty cost effective id say

we really need a new format for backup!!!!!!
if they really did come out with a 300gb optical format..
id be pretty excited about it!
even 100gb would be good.. imagine having 1 TB of data backed up over 10 discs..
or even 8 discs. that would be doable.... 50 discs?? FUGGETABOUTIT

300gb discs would be amazng..
1 TB backups in 3-4 disc sets..
3 TB backups over 10 discs..

i wonder what the price point for the discs would be..
it would have to be about 15$ for a 300gb optical disc..
otherwise noone would buy them if they were more i think
people are too lazy they would just go buy empty hard drives instead
the way most of us have been doing things.. but hard drives die..
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 11:57:04 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2015, 11:36:40 PM »
http://www.digistor.com/Company/Panasonic-DVD-RAM-Cartridge-Drive-Burner-IDE-Black-Bezel
Quote
This DVD-RAM cartridge load drive has IDE/ATAPI connectors as used on most Windows desktops and server computers.
DVD-RAM is the most stable and secure of all DVD disc formats, recommended for data back-up and archiving.

im still considering finding a cartridge drive..
9.4GB per double sided DVD-RAM!!!!!!!!!!!!




if i could find one that takes cartridges.. does both Blueray + DVD-RAM id go for it

Quote
DVD-RAM Cartridge Drive is Most Reliable DVD format for Data Back-up & Archiving


oooh shiney.. 9.4gb per disc... lasts 30-40 years
compare that to 8gb dual layer dvd, that is supposedly only suppose to last 5  years!!!

ok hold up
Quote
Verbatim M-Disc™ optical media is the new standard for digital archival storage. Unlike traditional optical media, which utilize dyes that can break down over time, data stored on an M-Disc is engraved on a patented inorganic write layer – it will not fade or deteriorate. This unique engraving process renders these archival grade discs practically impervious to environmental exposure, including light, temperature and humidity.

http://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/m-disc/
this says there is Blueray M-disc now.. new format.. which means
u can get the combination of longevity + high capacity.. hmm id prefer 300gb M-disc!! ;)
but 25gb + 200 year longevity works!!! at least u know u arent wasting your time/money
on something that will eventually not read + just go bad .. sitting in a drawer or shelf somewhere
Quote
M-Disc media has a projected lifetime of several hundred years.

finding one burner that supported both dvd-ram 9.4gb and mdisc bdr 25gb would be excellent!!!!!!

Quote
lets review the critical success factors
1) capacity
2) longevity
3) write/read speed
4) erasable/reusable vs burn-once

it says on the burn once 25gb mdisc BD-R that its 4x speed
the rewritable 9.4gb dvd-ram says its 3x speed

times for burning 25gb BD-R

i wonder if mdisc bd-r would be the same speed as normal bd-r
the mdisc bd-r disc said 4x speed so
if so, 25min per 25gb disc.. so thats 1min per 1gb
but of course Blueray is not supported for mac os 9..
but im just trying to find the best way to backup my stuff
ive lost all my data before in a hard drive crash and ever since ive been paranoid as hell about this stuff!!
better safe then sorry!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:06:17 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline mrhappy

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supernova777

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Offline IIO

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Re: revisiting DVD-RAM drives...
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 12:41:13 PM »
How about some referbs?? Will these things work??

i dont know why people are so into these cartridges, i use "normal" DV-RAM since ever and it is a great medium.


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