Many, many, many recording questions...

[MisterKeeks]

I've posted about this before but my considerations have changed somewhat. Here is the other thread:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=932.0

I play the cello and would like to have a good way to make reasonably good audio (plus maybe some video) recordings of my playing. I know a fair amount about Macs/Computers in general. However, I am clueless about audio.

The main considerations:
1. Most important: Be able to create good quality solo cello recordings
2. If possible, I would like to use the MIDI capability of an organ that is in the room that I would record in often. I would use this for Finale 2007 transcriptions. This software is based on PowerPC, so a PowerPC Mac would be preferable. I also would like to use this to somehow record and play back organ playing. This does not need to happen on the same computer as the recording, in fact, it might be easier to use a different computer. Also, the recording and playing back would not be for permanent recording.. more for practice purposes. The organ does have 3.5mm line in and out. I have used this, in conjunction with a USB audio interface, to record using Audacity on an iMac G4, but the audio was horrific. I suspect the USB audio card, but maybe the organ. I'll try again after I post this and see.
3. Being able to record other instruments (string quartet or cello with piano, etc.) would be nice. Not the main consideration, and possibly not worth the expense. Just something to consider when purchasing equipment, to have this expandability.
4. I might want to have video recordings with the cello as well. I think one would simply record using an iPhone and add in the audio after?

My big questions:
1. What microphones/microphone placement do you think would be best for this situation. Links and brand names/model numbers would be preferable here, as I don't know anything (ANYTHING) about microphones.
2. What program should I use? I know that this will be an opinion question, but I don't really know what to look for in a program and would just like some opinions here.
3. What kind of hardware (Sound Cards/Firewire interfaces, etc) should I purchase for this. I understand that this totally depends on the program that I end up using.
4. For MIDI use, what kind of interfaces are recommended. I think I saw a thread by chris that I will need to dig up. I currently have a MIDIMan 1x1. Again, MIDI can be on a different computer than the computer than I am using for recording, so any operating system is fine.

I have a fair amount of computers to throw at this project. While one option is a 2011 i7 Macbook Pro, I would prefer using one of these PowerPC options:
PCIe Power Mac G5 (Quad) (OS X Only)
2x PCI-X PMG5 (OS X Only)
PowerMac G4 that is capable of OS 9 to OS X Leopard
or a 2006 Mac Mini 1.83 Core Duo (no power at all, but silent- noise can be worked around though for the PowerPCs)
Have some PowerPC Laptops, but they probably aren't powerful enough (1.33GHz G4, 900MHz G3).

I also have a 5ish year old Core 2 Duo Windows computer, and some older Pentium D/4 computers, but please don't make me use those...

Some setups that were recommended in the previous threads:
Protoolsguy
Software- Logic Fun/Protools Free
Hardware- Motu??? or Digidesign 001 (I've found these, they are not too expensive)
Plus some sort of preamp- what kind, brand, etc?

Knezzen
Software- Protools (which version)
Hardware- Digidesign 888/24 interface (one of these?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGIDESIGN-888-24-I-O-Audio-Interface-Pro-Tools-MH068-Rev-W-/231641638242?hash=item35eeeae562)
Plus Pro Tools 24 MIX system-- what exactly is this

Chris
Software- any of the following:
-cubase
-nuendo
-logic
-live
-digital performer
Hardware:edirol ua-25, digi001, da-2496, motu 828, tascam-us428
^^Looking at these, the digi001 seems to be the cheapest. Is it only compatible with Pro Tools, or would I be able to use other software with it?^^

Mactron
Software- Soundedit 16
Hardware- Line-in
^I've heard bad things about the line in. Also what kind or microphone could I use with it?

Overall, the Protools setup is the one that I understand the best. Therefore, it is currently the one I like the most. What I really need are A-to-Z explanations of exactly what I need... Thanks!

[MisterKeeks]

I'll add that I'm not looking for a setup that is specifically os9. Just one that matches my hardware and needs. I have more experience with os x and more g5s, and I really do like the g5s a lot, at least when compared with some people here. But if os9 best meets my needs, os9 it is.

[supernova777]

keeks.. theres so many possibilities..
there is nothing wrong.. just pick one of whichever + experiment. everything we do we learn + Grow from.. 1 step at a time...15 days from now u could be in full swing.. if u get started now!

dont be paralyzed by doubts or trying to understand everything in one gulp..
its hard not to .. but its really best to keep blinders on and focus only on whatever small task u need to do at the moment. if the big picture is overwhelming.. let it be that way.. but dont let it stop u from taking a small step forward at a time.

everything is frustration + mystery when we dont understand or are unfamilar with how to accomplish something...

and truth be told u can even make music + record without an inteface if your mac has a line input.... ive done this using pro tools free recording from another computer running reason, synching reason to pro tools free via midi time code (MTC) and it works... alot of us get caught up with the technicalities.. its better to be focused on what music u are writing + sounds u are combining... yes technical helps.. to be able to record more then one channel at at a time but really the whole pt of tracking is to record one sound + then go back and record another sound and carefully pay attention to how they are combining + mixing..
i wish i had been focused more on my compositional skills the past year or 2 rather then all the technical stuff but ohwell..  we only have so much time.. gott to focus on the important stuff!

[MacTron]

and truth be told u can even make music + record without an inteface if your mac has a line input.... ive done this using pro tools free recording from another computer running reason, synching reason to pro tools free via midi time code (MTC) and it works... alot of us get caught up with the technicalities.. its better to be focused on what music u are writing + sounds u are combining... yes technical helps.. to be able to record more then one channel at at a time but really the whole pt of tracking is to record one sound + then go back and record another sound and carefully pay attention to how they are combining + mixing..
i wish i had been focused more on my compositional skills the past year or 2 rather then all the technical stuff but ohwell..  we only have so much time.. gott to focus on the important stuff!

That's a good advice.
It is important to choose stuff that fit in a step or two further away where you are, just in case. By example: You should choose a good mic, because it can be used with the Mac standard audio in -at first-, or with a sound card like the M-Audio  Audiophile 2496 if you need a better audio quality or a Digidesign hardware to achieve a full PRO audio system. Thus you avoid to lose the investment done in a mic, because with a good mic at first, its deficiencies won't arise with a better audio system.
I think this would help a lot of people.

[MisterKeeks]

and truth be told u can even make music + record without an inteface if your mac has a line input.... ive done this using pro tools free recording from another computer running reason, synching reason to pro tools free via midi time code (MTC) and it works... alot of us get caught up with the technicalities.. its better to be focused on what music u are writing + sounds u are combining... yes technical helps.. to be able to record more then one channel at at a time but really the whole pt of tracking is to record one sound + then go back and record another sound and carefully pay attention to how they are combining + mixing..
i wish i had been focused more on my compositional skills the past year or 2 rather then all the technical stuff but ohwell..  we only have so much time.. gott to focus on the important stuff!

That's a good advice.
It is important to choose stuff that fit in a step or two further away where you are, just in case. By example: You should choose a good mic, because it can be used with the Mac standard audio in -at first-, or with a sound card like the M-Audio  Audiophile 2496 if you need a better audio quality or a Digidesign hardware to achieve a full PRO audio system. Thus you avoid to lose the investment done in a mic, because with a good mic at first, its deficiencies won't arise with a better audio system.
I think this would help a lot of people.

Yeah, future-proofing this system is definitely something that I have considered.

If I used the line-in, what microphone/other hardware would you recommend? Obviously every instrument, etc, is different, but if you had to guess, is there something specific you could say? People have recommended multiple microphones for recording cello in general, but that would not be possible with line-in, correct?

In a way, I'm still sort of leaning towards the Digi001- it seems like it would have the best quality of these options, the most expandability of them, and isn't too expensive compared to the sound card.

[supernova777]

If I used the line-in, what microphone/other hardware would you recommend? Obviously every instrument, etc, is different, but if you had to guess, is there something specific you could say? People have recommended multiple microphones for recording cello in general, but that would not be possible with line-in, correct?

In a way, I'm still sort of leaning towards the Digi001- it seems like it would have the best quality of these options, the most expandability of them, and isn't too expensive compared to the sound card.

when using the built in "line-in" on the back of a mac g4.. theres 2 channels.. L + R
so really, u could have this connected to a small format mixer, with two seperate XLR mics.. but of course u would want to have 2 microphone preamps to amplify the signal.. heres a list of 2ch preamps u can buy http://www.sweetwater.com/c662--2-channel_Preamps/low2high u hear alot of people talking about the quality of preamps on interfaces and this is part of the defining character of each recording interface.. but u could use a standalone pre-amp + mic with the built in line in of the g4.. not saying that you SHOULD do this. but its possible to achieve good results doing just that.. mactron was saying that either way mics are defiantely something u need so u cant go wrong investing in that first of all.. logically.. because whatever the solution u decide upon, any of the possibilities will require microphone. therse many different levels of quality of mics but a common one that ive heard referenced alot is a shure sm58 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SM58/

but check the sweetwater site under mics: http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/live-sound/microphones/
you will see on the left  a list of categories, the first two categories are the two u should worry about
1)dynamic mics http://www.sweetwater.com/c106--Dynamic_Microphones
2)condenser mics http://www.sweetwater.com/c105--Condenser_Microphones
i would suggest u buy one of each type, and then u have "all the bases covered" and then you can learn, thru practice + experimentation, which microphone type is more well suited to captures a better resultin which scenario, and play with the distances + placements of the mics. (to do so you may need to spend money on mic stands, or holder aparatus aswell)

so to recap, i suggest u buy: (keep in mind these are the CHEAPEST OPTIONS)


1 x dynamic mic (such as a sm58 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SM58/)


1 x condenser mic (such as a behringer c1 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/C1m or c2 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/C2m)

and then 1 x 2channel preamp - preamps are found in many different products whether they be,
a) a small format mixer
b) a computer recording interface
c) standalone preamp
d) standalone digital to analog or analog to digital converter
for simplicity sake i will for now suggest the cheapest standalone preamp such as behringer ultragain pro http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIC2200


heres how it looks from the back, u can see it has XLR + 1/4" inputs + outputs, which would mean, if u were to use this to connect your mics to the actual line in interface of the g4 itself, u would need possibly a series of adapter cables such as a 3.5mm headphoen jack to 2 ch RCA cable, as well as  a 2 ch RCA to  2 ch 1/4" or XLR to be able to connect it

or more simply perhaps u could find an XLR to headphone cable!

http://www.swamp.net.au/headphone-splitter-cable.html like this but u would need a big headphone to small headphone adapter aswell... many different possible configs

now remember u can swap out different dynamic mic, diff condenser mics, diff preamps/interfaces...
but those 3 things u are gonna need no matter what!

with those 3 things, the two different types of mics, + the one two-channel preamp, given the right cables to connect, u could wire this into the line-in of the mac itself and achieve professional grade results but more importantly you would be on your way to mastering the fundamentals of recording

the apogee mini-me that i talked about the other day in a different thread could be something thats applicable for a 2 channel preamp aswell https://www.gearslutz.com/board/apogee-electronics/mini-me-g1327/
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun03/articles/apogeeminime.asp


im not trying to cover every single interface imaginable right now just trying to think..
what is a good very high quality 2 channel solution that includes 2 ch preamp for you
protoolsle5guy mentioned the RME ADI-2 which is a high end 2 channel AD/DA converter
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ADI2
another 2 ch AD converter was the Rosetta 200 by apogee
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/apogeerosetta.htm

theres many different interfaces that are both compatble + incompatible with mac os9 that include 2 ch of preamp so really theres tons of products u could plug your mics into, u could do many different configurations..

one 2ch preamp connected via analog to "built in line-in" on g4
one 2ch preamp connected via analog to an a/d converter box connected via digital to a "soundcard" device with digital input
(such as ULTRAGAIN PRO connected to a
one 2ch preamp/ad converter box combo interface connected to g4 via USB1.1 (such as an MBOX or tascam us-122 or edirol ua-25)
one 2ch preamp/ad converter box combo interface connected to g4 via firewire (such as a DIGI002)
one 2ch preamp/ad converter box combo interface connected to g4 via PCI (such as a DIGI001)

perhaps u should get something like a tascam us-224 to go with the mics
which isnt reputed to be very high quality but would meet your needs to get working + get your feet wet


other simple fixes would be get the two mics + edirol ua-25


or get the two mics + a digi 001


it dpends on which app u want to use..
if u wanted pro tools u could get an AMIII card to use in combination with 2 mics + preamps
or u could simply use pro tools free with the "line in"

if u wanted to use cubase or ableton live u must have an ASIO capable device

[supernova777]

perhaps it would be best if u got 1 of the two mics to start,
and simply an original mbox..
would be dirt cheap..

the mbox will work with all your different macs + pcs practically every one

a mic + original M-box would get u started mr keeks


or u could buy a digi 002
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec02/articles/digi002.asp

many options!!!!
i think u should just buy a buy a mic + an mbox for now and go from there
wont break your bank+ u will learn tons

[supernova777]

some other 2ch preamps; (theres tons of these.. literally tons of makes/models)

M-audio Audiobuddy
www.m-audio.com/products/view/audio-buddy

M-Audio DMP3
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/m-audio-dmp3-2-channel-mic-pre-direct-box

Nady DMP-2
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/nady-dmp-2-dual-microphone-preamp

ART USB Dual Pre
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/USBDualPrePS

ART PRO MPA II
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProMPA2

ART TPS II ***
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TPSII

Focusrite ISA two
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ISATwo

presonus bluetube dp (original)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun05/articles/bluetubedp.htm

presonus bluetube dpv2
https://www.presonus.com/products/BlueTube-DP-v2

FMR audio "really nice preamp"
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/fmr.asp

avalon ad2022
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AD2022

[supernova777]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCqRa1nCYTY[/youtube]

video comparing condenser to dynamic mics
remember everytime u see a reference to phantom power.. thats all about being able to use "condenser" type mics

[IIO]

no idea about microphones, but for recording a cello 24 bit conversion (not 001!) and an analog preamp with a limiter is duty.

[Protools5LEGuy]

001 is up to 24bit48kHz using analog or digital inputs. I guess IIO ask for a better AD/DA converter than a 001, but only worth buying if you plan on make serious demos and use mics that cost more than 200$.

Offtopic: Audiomedia III is 18 bits AD/DA but 24 bits using SPDIF.

We can have a LOOOONG talk about recording with or without limiters. When I record basses I try a soft optical compression on the focusrite trackmaster.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov01/articles/trackmaster.asp
Better to have little compression that you can push more later than have a too much compressed nasal sound impossible to put in your face.

[IIO]

nah i actually thought its only 16 bit