Author Topic: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD  (Read 14398 times)

Offline DieHard

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The Acard ARS-2133 with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD

The Story Begins....

So this IDE-to-SATA Bridge is a pretty unique adapter that Chris and I have touched upon in a few other posts.  It's main advantage is that when a 2.5" SSD or Notebook Hard Drive is mounted in it, it becomes the Normal size of a 3.5" Desktop PATA Hard drive, perfect for an MDD or QuickSilver...



Quote
The ARS-2133 is an IDE-to-SATA 2.5” HDD bay adapter serving as a solution for  for IT professionals, SOHO users, industrial PCs, factory equipment, hospital equipment and professional repair technicians. For old and industrial systems that do not support SATA hard drives, the ARS-2133 can “concert” a 2.5” SATA hard drive into a 3.5” IDE hard drive. This way, users will not need to upgrade their systems for using 2.5” SATA hard drives.
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So the victim...an MDD 1.33 Ghz looking pretty sad with an OWC SSD that comes with mediocre PATA to SATA adapter connector that can come off easily (especially when mounted Vertical in an MDD). Also, it takes up extra space with it's small board and wire pigtail.



This is the standard Diehard Solo Cubase Project Studio configuration with MDD 1.33 Ghz. Single, (1) OWC SSD, (2) 500 GB PATA, 1 Powercore, 1 UAD-1, and 1 M-Audio 2496



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Here is a closer look at the OWC Madness





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Now for the Acard, bought on eBay for $49 bucks definitely not a cheap device.



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The damn thing is rock solid steel and mounts the OWC SSD perfectly in less than 1 minute !



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Now mount it in the MDD Cage...and notice it takes up no more room than the factory mechanical PATA IDE hard drive; also notice that a fast 7200 RPM, 1 TB Notebook drive with a ton of cache can also be used instead of an SSD



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Here it is next to a 500 GB PATA, sharing the same cage !



There is only 1 bummer here, the Acard has the power plug reversed, so the standard MDD dual power harness (when 1 power is reversed) will not reach, so you will have to use a pigtail if you want to put an additional standard PATA in the same MDD Cage. If you can afford 2 Acard bridges, then this will not be an issue since both power molex connectors will be in the same direction. 

I decided, in the end, to use the Acard with the SSD and simply leave it by itself and then put (2) 500 GB PATA on the other controller.  So damn neat and secure... gotta love it !
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 08:47:30 AM by DieHard »

Offline Syntho

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Those Addonics always drove me crazy. After a while they fall out the bottom of the SSD when you have it mounted vertically.

Offline DieHard

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Yeah, definitely better than using double stick tape. 

I will eventually buy another Acard and mount this... $99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822149524&ignorebbr=1

TOSHIBA PH2100U-1SHD 1TB + 8GB NAND Flash 5400 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 2.5" Internal Solid State Hybrid Drive 1 TB Notebook drive w/3 Year Warranty

Now that would be a pretty serious MDD setup, an OWC 256GB SSD and a 1 TB Rocket SATA, both low power, silent, mega fast, and on the MDD ATA-100 Controller; No PCI bandwidth loss, remember, I use a PowerCore, UAD-1, and 2496, so SATA PCI card would be a no go...

supernova777

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Jerry.. seriously..
u have never HAD A SATA PCI CARD
i find it amazing that your logical brain has illogically assumed that u will have problems
rather then actually trying it..
makes no sense.
even worse u are openly telling someone to avoid something u havent even tested yourself!!!!!!!!
i know all your experience has led u to believe that would be the case
but the fact remains
you have not ever had a sata pci..
u are unfamiliar with their performance PERIOD let alone with their performance with your current setup..

u need to actually own one and try it before u knock it + openly tell others that its a must u avoid it... because u dont know for sure.. theres a good chance it would work fantastically. YOU HAVENT TRIED IT
i was going to send u a card... and u turned it down.

fucking get one and try it.. theres performance above your wildest dreams if u would just go out and actually TRY ONE OUT..
 buy a 64bit pci sata card
like the seritek 1v4 (for sata drives)
or a acard 6885M (for IDE drives)

190MB/s dude....  u arent even getting close to that with your SSD.. u are using like 5% of the SSD's performance.. how much do u get from your SSD with it connected to the ATA100? i bet its around no more then 100MB/s

btw great post.. lol

but wheres the benchmarks???
benchmark this sucker using ATTO ExpressProTools (found on any Protools CD)



Offline Syntho

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I'm running some PCI cards for my HDs on Powermacs. It works great but there are two things I don't like about it: 1) it takes from the PCI bandwidth, and 9600s are SLOW all around in the first place, and 2) the 9600 always gives me a "you didn't shut down properly" message when starting up again so I have to disable that message altogether.

I wouldn't mind running a PCI card on a G4 for this since it's undoubtedly faster and won't take away too much from the system bus, however I need those 4 PCI slots. ALL of them. So I'm gonna stick with SATA-IDE adapters.

Offline Syntho

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Hey Chris, have there been any benchmarks done on PCI SATA cards Vs. IDE-SATA adapters on G4s? Using the same drive? I wonder what's faster.

supernova777

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Hey Chris, have there been any benchmarks done on PCI SATA cards Vs. IDE-SATA adapters on G4s? Using the same drive? I wonder what's faster.

yessssss
i did this extensively the last 2 weeks
check my thread on "acard 6885M benchmark results"
with 4 drives connected in a stripe configuration i broke the speed record and got 214mb/s READ
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2542.0

to skip to my conclusion:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2542.msg14992#msg14992

its a huge night + day difference..
SSD's arent even worth using if u dont have them connected via a SATA pci IMHO. because any sata3 mechanical drive can be just as fast. hard drives are way better then they used to be.. AND CHEAP.

that said.. u can use a new SATA3 mechanical drive on a sata drive to IDE host adapter no problem.. and it will work fantastically if the adapter works properly.. but pci sata will always trump it BY ALOT!!
simply because of the progress that was made in hard drive technologies just after the mdd's were produced... they really fucked us over by moving to the g5 model and making everything incompatible..
imagine they had of made a g4 that used all the other advances in tech.. up to 2005.. bloody shame

supernova777

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in my tests i also concluded that simply using some adapters (ide-> sata, sata->ide) can somehwat reduce read/write speed .. by between 5-15mb/s

if u want to benchmark your drive right now
http://archive.digidesign.com/download/utility/

hit this page and download v2.7 of the atto expressprotools utility
it says scsi but it will benchmark any drive on ide or scsi

direct link: http://download.digidesign.com/support/digi/mac/utilities/attoept27.hqx
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:42:41 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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this device could also be used to connect new cheap 2.5" sata drives to an internal controller such as the Acard 6880M + Acard 6885M
(this is much easier on the QS, DA models as the 4th pci slot lines up to the mounting and easier to use a normal ATA cable..
anyways these adapters are available much cheaper + provide compatibilty + HW RAID functionality !!!
i have one 500gb 2.5" hmm but its kinda costly to hvae to buy 2 of these card units..
easier to just a right IDE/SATA adapter on the half height 6880M!

Offline DieHard

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My Dear Chris...
Quote
even worse u are openly telling someone to avoid something u havent even tested yourself!!!!!!!!
I was setting up at least 20 to 25 G4 DAWs a Month with North Shore Computer in NY and YES I tried BOTH SCSI and SATA cards... both of which would cause Audio tracking issues when Multiple Powercores or Multiple UADs were used... but we did use hard drive controllers in units that had only 1 add-in PCI (like an audio interface) so I don't know why you keep thinking I never tried one; but thanks for the opinion :) 

And Yes... I never put one in one of my MDDs for that exact reason
Quote
u need to actually own one and try it before u knock it + openly tell others that its a must u avoid it... because u dont know for sure.. theres a good chance it would work fantastically. YOU HAVENT TRIED IT

You can surely build what ever G4 you want, my opinions or recommendations are obviously without merit, so please don't take my word as God; All 3 of my MDDs can run to 64 tracks without a hickup, so I am very happy with the HD performance and I would never get rid of either my UAD-1 or PowerCore in OS9... so again, thanks, I'l leave all the testing to you "young" more experienced guys.

This is from the last time we had to debate the PCI bandwidth stuff (just is case you guys wanted some background info.
Quote
From Diehard:
I am making this last response in reference to the whole PCI bus mastering discussion so that newbies or people building a DAW can make so quick notes to avoid problems; this is not a debate, this is just real world observations.
    The term "Bus Mastering" describes a protocol where the device itself performs the basic computations necessary to perform input/output, thus freeing the CPU for other tasks. UltraDMA (ATA-33) was the first version of IDE to fully use the Bus Mastering protocol. Bus Mastering interfaces and devices are usually faster than PIO.

From Chris:
My opinion is that was much more likely a limitation of the CPU's ability to handle and process what was being done on pci bus then the actual pci bus itself.
    Diehard.. I would bet u cash doing tests with different levels of macs would reveal the cpu to be the mitigating factor..  comparing a 450mhz sawtooth to a 933 qs to a 1.42mdd and finally a 2.0ghz upgraded cpu.. when the higher models have no issue at all would u say that its because their pci bus is "better"???? seriously think back to which macs were actually in use back in the day when u recall these problems... guaranteed it was back around 1998-2001 when they had a dog of a cpu.

Diehard Response:
No, the CPU has very little to do with the issues and problems we are discussing.  Firstly, these issues on older hardware is not unique to macs... remember, back in 2003, my company not only made between 5 to 15 DAWs a week, but we also made Novell Servers (we were Novell Gold certified) on rack based PCs that served both PCs and Macs.  Some of our accounts in New York City had between 100 to 150 workstations both mac and PC connecting to a single server to store files, these systems worked great as long as guidelines with the PCI bus were established.

So, now I'll get to the point, these systems (with not much CPU power) worked perfectly as long as there were ONLY 1 to 2 Bus mastering cards installed in the server... additional SCSI cards used for Tape storage and other media were all either configured as non-bus mastering, or were created from the factory as non-bus mastering cards. (Sometimes the NIC cards were bus mastering also).  The point is that the moment too many bus mastering PCI cards were used, all sorts of performance issues on the server would crop up; including slow Hard drive writes, NIC packet issues, and many other problems. Remember, to add to the confusion, some cards can be either be configured as bus mastering or not and some systems have dedicated non-bus mastering slots... so read about the actual cards and system you have.

Back to the Macs... the issue regarding too many Bus mastering PCI cards that tax the PCI bus are very real on ALL MODELS OF POWERMAC G4s from Sawtooth thru MDD EVEN with CPU upgrades; hope that makes it clear enough. On newer macs (like a Mac Pro with snow leopard), this, or course is NOT an issue.  We are specifically talking about older Mac Hardware in the G4 era.

From Knez:
The PCI bus of the MDD for example is connected to the same controller as the ATA100 controller, but they do not share bandwidth in any other way. Tons of activity on the ATA100 controller does NOT slow down the PCI stuff. Adding a controller to the PCI bus makes it use up bandwith there insted of where it's "supposed to be", and thus leaves less bandwidth to the other stuff on therse.

From Diehard:
This is 100% correct and that is why my MDD systems that all have a UAD-1, PowerCore, and Audio Interface PCI card, all have an SSD drive on on the ATA bus, NOT a SATA card.  So the bus mastering of the internal IDE is done by the CPU itself, while the cards do their own, this balances the load on a fast G4 very well with disk I/O bus mastering being done by the CPU and audio data blocks being done by the bus mastering PCI Audio interface
so to summarize...

To all reading these crazy posts that want some real-world guideline and NOT opinions and theories; as a rule of thumb (without going into specific G4 models and configurations that I have tested and built for DAWs)

1) Keep the number on Bus mastering PCI cards (Like SATA, Audio Interfaces, and SCSI) to a Max of 2, in rare cases 3, but test the system; (non bus mastering PCI cards like extra USB will have no effect and add as many as you want, research or test each card)
2) If your interface is FW, then SATA/SCSI Cards will be fine and not cause any issues
3) Always Initially test the system with just Hard Drive I/O and Audio interface, then add cards like PowerCores, UAD-1, and other PCI one at a time and test again
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 09:31:10 AM by DieHard »

Offline MacTron

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Chris have done good bandwidth test, but my picture is pretty clear, I think:



In my opinion only the 64 bits Seritek is worthy, but I usually prefer the SATA to PATA adapters.
Why?
Because are cheap, (the good ones cost around 10 $ and the bad ones around 3$), it don't use PCI bandwidth (in some G4's). And If you are using a SSD with it, even though the bandwidth will be a bit low, you still enjoy one of the best benefits of a SSD: the fast data access time.

Of course if you plan to use a SATA DVD recorder, SATA to PATA adapters are the absolute best option.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

supernova777

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keep in mind mactrons graph is for single drive only.
the speeds in alot of my benchmarks are because of using hardware raid.. (acard 6890M, acard 6880M, acard 6885M)
to achieve even faster speeds by combining more than one drive into raid that is seen as one device to the os.

Offline DieHard

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Wow... it appears the ARS-2133 has gone up from $49 to $99 !

I think that is ridiculously overpriced (even though it is very high quality)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA

I was hoping to get another one of these :(

If anyone knows of a similar IDE to SATA bridge (that has the same form factor as a IDE desktop hard drive) please post here

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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  People are using velcro and the 3-10 bucks adapter with 2.5 inches drives. I have a 7200 rpm 2.5 drive that cant be feed with some Usb 2.0 adapters. But all 5400 can.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Did that hybrid drive worked under 9?
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline DieHard

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Did that hybrid drive worked under 9?

Never tried the hybrid drive... that was my next project :)

Quote
People are using velcro and the 3-10 bucks adapter with 2.5 inches drives.

Guess I'll be a Velcro user also at those new Acard prices

Offline DieHard

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2016, 08:31:08 AM »
Wow, just checked eBay and the Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge is Still holding at $99 plus shipping !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA

That price is crazy !

I need one for a client, so if anyone knows of a similar product (not just an adapter, but a tray/adapter that emulates the perfect size of an IDE desktop drive), please post :)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 08:48:03 AM by DieHard »

Offline geforceg4

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 12:54:34 AM »
Wow, just checked eBay and the Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge is Still holding at $99 plus shipping !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA

That price is crazy !

I need one for a client, so if anyone knows of a similar product (not just an adapter, but a tray/adapter that emulates the perfect size of an IDE desktop drive), please post :)


yep 2san is based in USA, cali i think? i spoke with them before, they will never lower their prices they have taken over the old stock of ACARD and they want to get $PAID$ they dont care about clearing it out at lower cost they will raise the price if anything
http://www.2san.com/english/company.jsp


Offline MacTron

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 06:26:23 AM »
...
In my opinion only the 64 bits Seritek is worthy, but I usually prefer the SATA to PATA adapters.
Why?
Because are cheap, (the good ones cost around 10 $ and the bad ones around 3$), it don't use PCI bandwidth (in some G4's). And If you are using a SSD with it, even though the bandwidth will be a bit low, you still enjoy one of the best benefits of a SSD: the fast data access time.

Of course if you plan to use a SATA DVD recorder, SATA to PATA adapters are the absolute best option.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

macStuff

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2018, 05:59:37 PM »
Wow... it appears the ARS-2133 has gone up from $49 to $99 !

I think that is ridiculously overpriced (even though it is very high quality)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA

I was hoping to get another one of these :(

If anyone knows of a similar IDE to SATA bridge (that has the same form factor as a IDE desktop hard drive) please post here

LOL! its at 199$ now.. wtf???

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2019, 04:36:57 PM »
No matter, what money you spend on drives, adapters or what-not it is still much less, than the damage you get if you spend that money not wisely.
Buy brand new rotating drives in retail packaging and certified for 7/24.

Certify them with SoftRAID (additionally!) and take every issue very seriously. RAID-10 is the safest and always have spare drives.

I have two Thecus 8800 set-ups, each of six drives, RAID-10 and in two different countries.

Both are identical and mercilessly mirrored after every travel between both locations.

It works... Maybe sounds a bit expensive, but better not to be sorry after a disaster.


Offline IIO

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"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline GaryN

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Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2019, 05:15:12 AM »
whoa, expensive :)

i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.

current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2019, 12:01:17 PM »
whoa, expensive :)

i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.

current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.

If you notice the PCB - they are made at the same factory where most if not all FT cards used to be made.
But for small numbers and in particular to fit in small place they aren't the best: to expensive and to big.

I tried with good success JMicron-based design of eBay. There are several designs.

The one with two large condensators is a very bad design:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-To-Serial-ATA-SATA-Adapter-Converter-For-HDD-DVD/253296862444

This design is good (and only this one!)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-to-IDE-adapter-converter-2-5-SATA-Female-to-3-5-inches-IDE-male-40-pin/273076839233

Unfortunately I don't know the manufacturer.

From China directly, same good thing, for much less:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-ssd-hdd-female-hard-drive-to-ide-3-5-40-pin-male-converter-card-adapter-KQ/183966961780

The one for 2.5" IDE drives is similar, but still bad.
Remember: the moment you see two large cylinders next to each other poking out of PCB - run away. These are awful.

Occasionally bad adapters do happen, so the safest way is to buy few more (if you need a pair - buy two more).
The price is $3.31 (U.S.), so the total for four cards would be 4 x 3.31.

If you are not lucky one maybe will be a "lemon". If you are lucky, use two and sell the rest or just put them away as spares.
You always may need some extra.

The risk is very low, is exactly $13.24


Update: noticed that the above seller does not sell to the U.S.
This one does:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-ssd-hdd-female-hard-drive-to-ide-3-5-40-pin-male-converter-card-adapter-WL/233228050977

They are probably the same, selling for same price just playing different games. Never understood the shipping policy of these sellers.
Some sell to Germany, some not. Some sell to U.S., some not. And if they announce that an item is "negotiable" they spend 10-15 minutes to write an e-mail why they won't accept your $3.30 offer for what is on display for $3.34.

Notice this seller, too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-ssd-hdd-female-hard-drive-to-ide-3-5-40-pin-male-converter-card-adapter-BI/183771688630
Same thing, except that there is $0.29 shipping for a $3.05 item, yielding the same $3.34 as above. Funny these games. And I bet, none of them knows really what they sell.


Offline DieHard

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2019, 08:57:07 AM »

This design is good (and only this one!)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-to-IDE-adapter-converter-2-5-SATA-Female-to-3-5-inches-IDE-male-40-pin/273076839233

Unfortunately I don't know the manufacturer.

I think we covered this one... it looks IDENTICAL to the Kingwin we featured, but a good find :)

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3576.0.html

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2019, 03:08:38 PM »
If you notice the PCB - they are made at the same factory where most if not all FT cards used to be made.

The one with two large condensators is a very bad design:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-To-Serial-ATA-SATA-Adapter-Converter-For-HDD-DVD/253296862444

yes, those are the ones i use, i thought they were the cheapest :)

i am aware of those similar models without these big condensators, i love that they are smaller, and they seem to have the same price tag, but never saw them on german ebay when i ordered a bunch some years ago.


Quote
Remember: the moment you see two large cylinders next to each other poking out of PCB - run away. These are awful.

yes, i know, when used often, one should control how it looks from time to time.

can you tell HOW bad it is? can it damage the drive or the compuiter when it explodes one day? :P

my optical enclores are only powered on once a week. the G4s are more often...


Quote
And if they announce that an item is "negotiable" they spend 10-15 minutes to write an e-mail why they won't accept your $3.30 offer for what is on display for $3.34.

i never saw a chinese talking on ebay. sometimes they refund, sometimes not. until now everything arrived in time and in order. if one day they send me shit or forget me, i will still give them "green" even if i loose the game.

who knows, in the end i am supporting communism by buying this stuff? i wouldnt mind... there are worse countries to buy stuff from.

last week i bought a golden necklace from central china for 1,87 euro and another one for 2,24 including shipping. i have no idea how they do that as normally a postcard already costs more.
in germany the very same product costs 14 euro and every third german ebay shop will send you broken stuff and then explain you that it is your fault.

around christmas i am expecting a superb teabrick from nepal, which i had to order 4 months before i need it. not even the wholesale has it here.

btw, i once tested a chinese knock-off "apple" branded DVI to VGA adapter, which actually looks completely like the original - and makes a better picture than the original.



« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 03:37:11 PM by IIO »
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2019, 09:43:33 AM »
If you notice the PCB - they are made at the same factory where most if not all FT cards used to be made.

The one with two large condensators is a very bad design:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-To-Serial-ATA-SATA-Adapter-Converter-For-HDD-DVD/253296862444

yes, those are the ones i use, i thought they were the cheapest :)

i am aware of those similar models without these big condensators, i love that they are smaller, and they seem to have the same price tag, but never saw them on german ebay when i ordered a bunch some years ago.


Quote
Remember: the moment you see two large cylinders next to each other poking out of PCB - run away. These are awful.

yes, i know, when used often, one should control how it looks from time to time.

can you tell HOW bad it is? can it damage the drive or the compuiter when it explodes one day? :P

my optical enclores are only powered on once a week. the G4s are more often...


Quote
And if they announce that an item is "negotiable" they spend 10-15 minutes to write an e-mail why they won't accept your $3.30 offer for what is on display for $3.34.

i never saw a chinese talking on ebay. sometimes they refund, sometimes not. until now everything arrived in time and in order. if one day they send me shit or forget me, i will still give them "green" even if i loose the game.

who knows, in the end i am supporting communism by buying this stuff? i wouldnt mind... there are worse countries to buy stuff from.

last week i bought a golden necklace from central china for 1,87 euro and another one for 2,24 including shipping. i have no idea how they do that as normally a postcard already costs more.
in germany the very same product costs 14 euro and every third german ebay shop will send you broken stuff and then explain you that it is your fault.

around christmas i am expecting a superb teabrick from nepal, which i had to order 4 months before i need it. not even the wholesale has it here.

btw, i once tested a chinese knock-off "apple" branded DVI to VGA adapter, which actually looks completely like the original - and makes a better picture than the original.

The bad adapters produce a lot of noise. SATA is a fast protocol and if the noise is bad, the result is bad.
I tried the other adapters in the Xserve RAID replacing the 1TB HGST PATA drives with 1TB WDC laptop drives ("blue") and the PATA-SATA adapters. I let them work for few days in the row. 14 drives - not a single error. So they are OK. The adapters with two large cylinder failed badly within minutes. Nothing exploded, just transmission errors.

I just bought four Kingston SSD-s (240MB) for £19 each, paid something like £5 for shipment, from Slovenia. Hope they are OK. On the auction they looked new and unopened.

Offline GaryN

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2019, 02:45:37 PM »
whoa, expensive :)

i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.
current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.
Expensive? $16 ??
Maybe I should add that I previously bough a similar one on fleabay for $10.

Guess what? It did NOT work

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2019, 03:15:19 AM »
whoa, expensive :)

i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.
current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.
Expensive? $16 ??
Maybe I should add that I previously bough a similar one on fleabay for $10.

Guess what? It did NOT work

I bought probably 30 or so on fee-Bay for the two Xserve RAID-s, under $4 a piece and they do work.
It's not the price (sometimes it tells us nothing), but technology.

The two chips which are known to work are from either JMicron or Marvell. There used to be from SiliconImage, they are pretty good - but nowhere to find.
Than the manufacturer has to follow certain procedure. To make a bad adapter is not really cheaper than to make a good adapter.

To employ bad engineers is, however, cheaper at first - but ultimately very expensive.
Quite a few companies learned that. To bad, in the U.S. the culture favors managers, not engineers.

The funny twist: in USA the managers prefer to drive German and Japanese cars.
In Germany and Japan the managers prefer to drive German and Japanese cars.

In America, Germany, Russia the managers try to force down the throat of customers Indian software.
In India, in most critical places American, German, Russian software is deployed.

Something about engineering culture ;-)

Offline GaryN

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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2019, 02:13:07 PM »
I bought probably 30 or so on fee-Bay for the two Xserve RAID-s, under $4 a piece and they do work.
It's not the price (sometimes it tells us nothing), but technology.
3 dollars, 4 dollars, 5 dollars and on and on and on……

If I was buying a bunch to set up a RAID or similar (as you were) I might actually give a damn about a few bucks.
I was buying ONE. So, I just wanted it to work because I have other things to do besides debug every little thing I buy.

That said, the reason the cheaper one didn't work was because they didn't bother to include a cable select setting - only master and slave.
This did not show in the pics or description and I didn't stop to think about it…possibly partly because it was so cheap.
Could I have made it work? Possibly / probably. But rather than start chopping cable and such, I chose instead, to use it somewhere else entirely.
I replaced it with something that did work and honestly, appears to be of far better construction as well.


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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2019, 02:28:21 PM »
(S)ATAman do you work for Firmtek?

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2019, 02:31:39 PM »
(S)ATAman do you work for Firmtek?
No, I don't. But obviously I did. Long time ago. All their software and more is written by me. And my name is inside of the drivers.
Either they are electronically signed by me (post-Sierra requirement) or it's just straight there (FCode). Not difficult to find either out, just use ASP for Sierra or later.
But please no names here.

Otherwise I am not with them since almost 10 years. And the Thunderbolt development is not what I did. I think, their Thunderbolt development was unique because it was done by a SINGLE PERSON (I have nothing to do with it) and not a team. It was probably an enormous effort - which wasn't valued as much as much money and effort was put there. Sad. But that wasn't my work anymore. I am afraid, that ultimately the Thunderbolt was what consumed the resources. A very much unjust thing - why should a 2-man company (yes, all FirmTek was about TWO people. And after I had to go - essentially ONLY ONE!) finance the R&D of Intel and Apple combined?

So there is the secret... FirmTek even in it's best days was only two people. And the third (M***) was / (is?) working for free. At least when I was there, he did not get a Cent.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 02:44:01 PM by (S)ATAman »

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2019, 02:43:29 PM »
SATA to PATA adapters  provide no additional speed increase
a 64bit PCI or PCI-X card such as the Acard 6885M or the Firmtek cards provide a huge increase over the built in ATA speed
180-190MB/s  is double (probably triple) the Bandwidth any built in ATA connection can ever hope to provide with a SATA/PATA adapter

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2542.0.html
Quote
if its connected to a 64bit SATA150 pci card, 2 drives will cap out around 190-200MB/s
if its connected to a 32 bit SATA150 pci card, its gona cap out around 90-105MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA100 port, it should cap out somewhere near 60-65MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA66 port, it should cap out somewhere near 45-50MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA33 port, it should cap out somewhere near 25-30MB/s

i dont see anyone posting any disk benchmarks for SATA/PATA Adapters.. and with good reason because they are not very impressive.

even if it was possible to SOFTRAID 2 drives using SATA/PATA Adapters, that speed is going to cap out at around the same speed a single drive would on a PCI Adapter (120Mb/s - 60MB/s x 2)

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2019, 02:50:44 PM »
(S)ATAman
so you are the same guy who i saw posting on https://www.macgurus.com/forums/ ? back in the day?
if so; i was hoping you would show up some day;) happy holidays to you sir

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2019, 02:53:33 PM »
(S)ATAman do you work for Firmtek?
No, I don't. But obviously I did. Long time ago. All their software and more is written by me. And my name is inside of the drivers.
Either they are electronically signed by me (post-Sierra requirement) or it's just straight there (FCode). Not difficult to find either out, just use ASP for Sierra or later.
But please no names here.

Otherwise I am not with them since almost 10 years. And the Thunderbolt development is not what I did. I think, their Thunderbolt development was unique because it was done by a SINGLE PERSON (I have nothing to do with it) and not a team. It was probably an enormous effort - which wasn't valued as much as much money and effort was put there. Sad. But that wasn't my work anymore. I am afraid, that ultimately the Thunderbolt was what consumed the resources. A very much unjust thing - why should a 2-man company (yes, all FirmTek was about TWO people. And after I had to go - essentially ONLY ONE!) finance the R&D of Intel and Apple combined?

So there is the secret... FirmTek even in it's best days was only two people. And the third (M***) was / (is?) working for free. At least when I was there, he did not get a Cent.

Why I am saying that - just FYI: the certification of a Thunderbolt device even today costs something like $40K. For a small company this is insane burden. They may take a risk of playing with Thunderbolt - but it is a huge risk. The chances to survive being hit by a Thunderbolt are small not only during a thunderstorm. :(

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 03:04:46 PM »
(S)ATAman
so you are the same guy who i saw posting on https://www.macgurus.com/forums/ ? back in the day?
if so; i was hoping you would show up some day;) happy holidays to you sir

Thanks! The MacGurus story actually ended with some misunderstanding (regarding the word "Orthodox"), hope one day I will tell Rick that he totally misunderstood that word. I did not communicate with him since maybe 6-7 years.

As for my relationship with Apple community: I am far more fanatic and insane than just disappear. Hope, my most rebellious days are ahead of me ;)

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2019, 03:08:38 PM »
we are all indebted to your work
i have a number of cards , sonnet, firmtek, acard etc
i hope that you can help Daniel out to achieve some great result for the benefit of all  of us retro users

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2019, 04:20:13 PM »
we are all indebted to your work
i have a number of cards , sonnet, firmtek, acard etc
i hope that you can help Daniel out to achieve some great result for the benefit of all  of us retro users

Thanks! ACard starting with "66" was my personal competition. The late Sonnet cards were made by Joel of Sonnet (now Apple), competing with me - and doing a better job with advanced Marvell SATA chips, than I did later on with same. So it's by far not just me.

Regarding "retro":
- The deal with Promise/100/133 alias UltraTek/100/133 with Sonnet was done, they don't care less, so I am going to "open" all Promise Parallel ATA cards with the factory flasher. This will be done immediately as I get the Kingston 240 SSD drives. Four new are on order from eBay, i expect them to arrive before the holidays.
So the PATA is a done deal. If anyone wants to do some hacking on Parallel ATA - please wait few weeks, maybe days.

- What to do with SATA is a different story. 3124 is a possibility, will either help Daniel or make something on quick, simply preferring what yields the fastest result.
I am undecided because I know how bad 3124 internally is and how bad and useless (for the future) is it's programming interface. Marvell 6042 is much better but there are barely any cards and there is no FCode. Some other ideas are floating in my head but it could happen we just land up with 3124 for MacOS 9.x

Offline FdB

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2019, 06:13:44 PM »
Just when you might think that it’s quiet enough to take a nap…
                              yet another “rogue” enters the proverbial fold.

That MICROPΩLIS is still here and working (but gathering dust).
Could possibly be in (S)ATAman’s future, minus the SCSI drives.

If we all hang around here long enough, who knows who…
                                                 and what might just show up? ;)

Welcome aboard, glad that you're here!
This Must Be The Place

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2019, 06:56:03 PM »
Just when you might think that it’s quiet enough to take a nap…
                              yet another “rogue” enters the proverbial fold.

That MICROPΩLIS is still here and working (but gathering dust).
Could possibly be in (S)ATAman’s future, minus the SCSI drives.

If we all hang around here long enough, who knows who…
                                                 and what might just show up? ;)

Welcome aboard, glad that you're here!

Thank you guys for compliments - let's celebrate later.
If anyone knows what is an OK video card for G4 MDD which can drive a 30" monitor under "9" at the 2560 x 1600 that would be helpful.
2D acceleration is enough, it's just for CodeWarrior.

Most, if not all of the stuff does compile and build under 10.4.x on G5 Quad in the "classic" window, so there is no sense of urgency.
The current card in MDD is the original "Rage 128", this is certainly not good enough.

The stock card in my G5 "Quad" is the lowest-grade, but at least it drives the 30" monitor at the best resolution.


Offline Philgood

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2019, 12:37:10 PM »
Just bought 5 of these recommended design ide-SATA bridges.
They will arrive here in 1-2 months.

Thanks (S)ATAman.
*G4 MDD 1.25GHz (Single 2003)* with 2x 80Gb harddrives, 1Gb RAM, Tascam US-428 and Edirol FA-101 USB/Firewire soundcards-*iMac G3 DV 400MHz* with installs from OS 8.6-OSX Tiger on different harddrives-*Powerbook G4 1.67Ghz* with new SSD ! Love it.

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2019, 07:30:46 PM »
If anyone knows what is an OK video card for G4 MDD which can drive a 30" monitor under "9" at the 2560 x 1600 that would be helpful.

we believe none does that, not even the geforce 4 ti.

the "9" cards mostly end up at 2048x1536 - and you will also not be able to attach a dual-DVI monitor to ADC so easily.

the radeon 9600 had dual link dvi on a G4, but of course only in OSX. and when i rember right they are all x8? (p.s.: nevermind, i looked it up, it also is limited to 2048x1536)

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2019, 04:43:00 PM »
If anyone knows what is an OK video card for G4 MDD which can drive a 30" monitor under "9" at the 2560 x 1600 that would be helpful.

we believe none does that, not even the geforce 4 ti.

the "9" cards mostly end up at 2048x1536 - and you will also not be able to attach a dual-DVI monitor to ADC so easily.

the radeon 9600 had dual link dvi on a G4, but of course only in OSX. and when i rember right they are all x8? (p.s.: nevermind, i looked it up, it also is limited to 2048x1536)

Ok, it's not that easy and really confusing. But if nothing else I would rather live with 2028x1536 than with the lowest of the low i have for G4 MDD now.
Will be 8500 for 2048 x 1536 sufficient?

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2019, 09:18:03 PM »
i dont know by heart as there are probably more than one model of the 8500.

if you only need more screenspace the better path is to use multiple monitors.

but the 30" seems not doable.

in theory you could feed a 30" with two GPUs which each delivers 2560 x 800... but if i would have to guess... then i would think that there is also no card which can do this under OS9 (plus "multiresolutions" extension) :P

and it might look strange when the upper half is not in sync with the lower half.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2019, 02:18:40 PM »
i dont know by heart as there are probably more than one model of the 8500.

if you only need more screenspace the better path is to use multiple monitors.

but the 30" seems not doable.

in theory you could feed a 30" with two GPUs which each delivers 2560 x 800... but if i would have to guess... then i would think that there is also no card which can do this under OS9 (plus "multiresolutions" extension) :P

and it might look strange when the upper half is not in sync with the lower half.

I did see in a German-speaking forum that somebody achieved the full 2560 x 1600. In my seniority moment I forgot to save the link.

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2019, 02:45:11 PM »
hm, how long ago?

i dont know anything about it, but mb he was using a GF6 PCI-X?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2019, 04:43:07 AM »
I did see in a German-speaking forum that somebody achieved the full 2560 x 1600. In my seniority moment I forgot to save the link.

CubeOwner?
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2019, 07:14:39 AM »
I did see in a German-speaking forum that somebody achieved the full 2560 x 1600. In my seniority moment I forgot to save the link.

CubeOwner?

Could be. Now it's moot, I landed up buying an Apple 9000 Pro for £12 even and paid an other £16.26 for the shipping.

See the related thread here:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5262.0.html

If nothing else, the 9000 Pro should beat the cr@p out of the current non-pro 128 Rage.
With the "Rage 128" I can't even achieve the 1900x1080 on "9", only in "X".

The 9000 Pro card is already shipped, hope it arrives well and will do the job (1900x1080 or, better 1900x1200 on "9" with 2D acceleration good enough to feel CodeWarrior UI fast enough). I think the 9000 Pro could be even over-qualified. Unfortunately the "Rage" is completely under-qualified.

2560 x 1600 remains a dream. But given the superb font quality of "9" and the very clear UI guidelines the 1900x1200 (hope, that resolution will work on "9" with 9000 Pro) is not much less productive than my 4K on "X".

macStuff

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2019, 11:13:57 AM »
rage 128 caps out at 1680 x 1050
in its defense; monitors that big were not created yet while it was a current card
im still actually using my first flat screen monitor i ever bought.. samsung. 1680x1050 "Syncmaster 226BW"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16:10_aspect_ratio
the 16:10 ratio didnt appear untill 2003;
the rage 128 was current in 1999-2002 time period

Quote
Industry moves towards 16:10 from 2003 to 2008
Until about 2003, most computer monitors had a 4:3 aspect ratio and some had 5:4. Between 2003 and 2006, monitors with 16:10 aspect ratios became commonly available, first in laptops and later also in standalone monitors. Such displays were considered to be better suited for productive uses such as word processing and computer-aided design.[4][5]

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2019, 07:20:51 PM »
1900x1200 on "9" with 2D acceleration good enough to feel CodeWarrior UI fast enough

1920x1200 (WUXGA) works fine with all of these cards, you could say that this is the "normal" resolution for a quicksilver or MDD. it works great with the mini G4, too.

but if you go higher than that, you usually end up with 50Hz or even 30Hz... which doesnt look nice... and you needed multiresolutions to match to the vertical frequency values the monitor supports.

unlike 2k or HD, with WUXGA you must be already careful with VGA cables. cheap cables normally dont make distances of > 150-200 cm.

Quote
But given the superb font quality of "9" and the very clear UI guidelines the 1900x1200 (hope, that resolution will work on "9" with 9000 Pro) is not much less productive than my 4K on "X".

absolutely.

i am regulary pissed how the size 9 font in my apps look when i open the same stuff on windows or post 10.11 OSX.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline (S)ATAman

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2019, 02:21:14 AM »

absolutely.

i am regulary pissed how the size 9 font in my apps look when i open the same stuff on windows or post 10.11 OSX.

The problem is with every single version of "X".
I created a toolchain for CodeWarrior and every normal IOKit driver project can be created with CW.

(Un)fortunately I can't use anything later than 10.6.8 because starting with 10.7.0 there is no Rosetta anymore.

If anyone compares the very clean UI of the CodeWarrior with the total mess of the XCode they wonder, what kind of UI guidelines Apple does follow.

The worst unfortunately are the fonts. Finding good ones for CodeWarrior under PPC emulation (and with Carbon) is a joy.
Everything with Cocoa is horrific.

The later fonts (10.13.6 here) tend to be better to, but you have to work very hard.
On 42" 4K monitor I am using (if I have to) size 14 Courier New with "Relaxed Spacing".

But I rarely if ever touch XCode other way, than command-line.

All editing is done in a Snow Leopard Server window under Parallels with Code Warrior.

That automatically means, all driver projects have to be 10.6.8 compatible. They are universal, so 10.4.x (or 10.5.x) is the starting point. Since there are projects like NVMe that means I do have NVMe drivers for... of course 10.13.6 or later only. If, by coincident, anyone sees something else by mistake - it's a mirage and clear sign of bad vision.

NVMe has absolutely, absolutely, REALLY-REALLY no universal binary support. Anything earlier than 10.13 and of course G5 PowerPC NVMe ist 100% AUSGESCHLOSSEN!

This is what marketing and customer support sez and I do follow the leader.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 03:56:17 AM by (S)ATAman »

Offline IIO

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Re: The Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge with OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2019, 12:10:51 PM »
and you have luck since you are only after text engines basically - you can easily just change the font size when you migrate a project.

for me it about idiosyncratic soft GL solutions and things like that.

while OS9 just displays the pixels as they are (so that truetype looks like bitmaps), in OSX there are 3 different font smoothing options in the OS, in windows there is sometimes smoothing and sometimes not, and if i would choose to use a bigger font for all OS, it would destroy my graphical user interface.

in addition to how the OS handels font, i am also depending on how differetn versions of the enviroment are doing it.

Quote
The problem is with every single version of "X".

in PPC OSX i can use the same version of runtime in my case. fonts will look 100% the same. issues begin for me with 64 bit OSX.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com