Author Topic: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 215065 times)

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1125 on: May 16, 2020, 02:12:35 AM »
Try with sudo
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Offline theG4fantastic

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1126 on: May 16, 2020, 02:54:15 PM »
OK. I blessed the Mac OS 9 partition.

I got the nvram to dual boot.

The OS 9 disk appears as a selection after multi-boot. It starts for a brief second, then I get the disk with ?.

Any ideas?

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1127 on: May 17, 2020, 06:53:30 AM »
isnt that because the mini ROM already contains an OF patch which includes a reset?
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Offline Aksis

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1128 on: May 19, 2020, 07:48:46 PM »
I just got my mini working well with normal tasks but is anyone having or have had trouble with the mini crashing on pro tools or a daw dealing loading an audio file on an ssd ? Every time the system crashes when I import a wav file or run through playing it , i feel pretty defeated about hitting these forums with so much problems each time , I apologize on my idiocy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1129 on: May 20, 2020, 06:02:10 AM »
not sure sbout 5, but PT 4 likes a volume limit of <176gb ... thereīs lots of info somewhere in the protools sections.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 10:05:28 AM by IIO »
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Offline Aksis

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1130 on: May 20, 2020, 09:49:50 AM »
I totally get that my man , I should be in the clear considering itís a 50gb SSD , it doesnít like the disc allocation from my tracks made on the PowerBook (considering it has a hard drive) so Iím wondering what the issue is, but other than a crash caused by creating a new file that was already there (cause I didnít save the session after importing a track which is dumb)  Iím pretty good to go :)

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1131 on: May 20, 2020, 10:07:39 AM »
as long as you dont try to stick 3 farm cards in the mini, all will be good.
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Offline Aksis

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1132 on: May 21, 2020, 10:01:17 PM »
Never mind , I imported freshly made files into pt5 and the Mac crashed a quarter way calculating the overview and processing the audio , when I try to import audio it crashes way too often and this is horrid for the workflow, I canít chalk it to anything , it did a similar problem when I first got the machine , booted it and tried to make an alias for classilla , this is just simply unbearable

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1133 on: May 22, 2020, 09:20:37 AM »
eww, if it also happens when creating an alias then it is time to do a RAM check i guess.
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Offline Roman323

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1134 on: May 22, 2020, 03:37:15 PM »
This maybe stupid question but has anyone tried to boot Pismo into OS 8.6 or use Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 ?

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1135 on: May 22, 2020, 03:53:14 PM »
Once tried 1.2v3 on a g4 mini but was never able to get past the splash booting screen with the spinning CD (beach ball). But if you mean pismo PowerBook then not sure.
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1136 on: May 23, 2020, 08:29:10 PM »
OK. I blessed the Mac OS 9 partition.

I got the nvram to dual boot.

The OS 9 disk appears as a selection after multi-boot. It starts for a brief second, then I get the disk with ?.

Any ideas?

No ideas; I'm stuck at the same place.  I'm using version 9 of the unsupported Mini image currently.  Tried wiping the entire drive, same issue.  Tried manually booting the Mac OS ROM from Open Firmware, same issue.  I've got the thing booting into 10.6, but OS 9.2.2 is stumping me.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1137 on: May 23, 2020, 08:38:15 PM »
I've got the thing booting into 10.6, but OS 9.2.2 is stumping me.

...
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1138 on: May 23, 2020, 09:53:36 PM »
I've got the thing booting into 10.6, but OS 9.2.2 is stumping me.

...

Well, I realized I made a newbie mistake.  I booted into 10.6, fired up a terminal, and typed in
sudo bless -folder9 /Volumes/macos9/System\ Folder -use9 -bootBlockFile /usr/share/misc/bootblockdata

Then rebooted and bam!  Boot into OS 9 :)

So now I've got a G4 Mini dual booting Mac OS 9.2.2 and Mac OS X 10.6 PPC.  Still need to work out a few kinks on the 10.6 side, as some bits don't work as expected; probably need to replace with 10.5 components.  But OS 9 works great!  Thanks to everyone who spent so long putting that together!

And it feels really weird having a Mac that can run OSes released 10 years apart from the PPC era.  Usually I have to pull that off via emulation.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1139 on: May 23, 2020, 11:22:48 PM »
Quote
Well, I realized I made a newbie mistake.

it would not be a mistake if you booted into 10.6, it would be an absolute innovation.
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1140 on: May 25, 2020, 07:31:39 AM »
Quote
Well, I realized I made a newbie mistake.

it would not be a mistake if you booted into 10.6, it would be an absolute innovation.

It is :D  The current version still has some stability issues, and relies on a few 10.5 drivers, but the entire development toolchain for 10.6 works, so any open source software written against the 10.6 SDK will compile and run, and all the older PPC software will run.  x86... not so much.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1141 on: May 25, 2020, 09:21:47 AM »
Quote
Well, I realized I made a newbie mistake.

it would not be a mistake if you booted into 10.6, it would be an absolute innovation.

Just like MDD FW800 and mini didnt boot vanilla Mac OS 9 a few years ago now you can boot most G4 and G5 in Snow Leopard Developer preview

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/snow-leopard-on-unsupported-ppc-machines.2232031/
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1142 on: May 25, 2020, 09:57:16 AM »
Quote
Just like MDD FW800 and mini didnt boot vanilla Mac OS 9 a few years ago now you can boot most G4 and G5 in Snow Leopard Developer preview

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/snow-leopard-on-unsupported-ppc-machines.2232031/

Wow, like Xmas all over again, my 2nd favorite OS of all time, Logic 9.8.1 on a G4 with Snow leopard.... hhmmmmmm worth a try, but with Mac Pro 1,1 @$50 to $75, might be a waste

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1143 on: May 25, 2020, 10:37:18 AM »
almost nothing in it which is new or updated compared to 10.5. has PPC code.
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1144 on: May 25, 2020, 01:06:11 PM »
almost nothing in it which is new or updated compared to 10.5. has PPC code.

Not actually true; most people developing through 10.6 still targeted 10.4+ SDKs, which generated PPC code.  Once 10.7 came along, many people stopped targeting PPC in their builds.

Of course, this means that most PPC code was compiled against the 10.5 or 10.4 SDK, which is why I pointed out that open source software targeting 10.6 SDK can be compiled PPC and run on the G4 Mini.  Tigerbrew actually works surprisingly well with 10.6 optimizations, for example.

Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1145 on: May 25, 2020, 01:43:32 PM »
Cheers for that @darthnVader. While I understand there is a pixel clock limitation, something isn't adding up. When I received my Mac Mini G4s from eBay, they were running Mac OS X 10.4.11 and worked on my BenQ 27" monitor 1920x1080@60 straight out of the box. For fun I reinstalled Mac OS Tiger 10.4.1, I hit the fuzzy graphics/out of range issue. It wasn't until it patched all the way to 10.4.11 everything came good.

My psychic debugging tells me that Apple put something into Mac OS X 10.4.11 to deal with the pixel clock issue.

In your post there is a quote regarding SwitchResX, is there something I can do with that tool that can propagate the resolution/timings into Mac OS 9 or am I basically stuck with what I have at the time being?

The Pixel clock limit can be a real issue, compounded by the fact that most displays don't state if they are coherent/non-coherent.

I had to use the 'NDRV' from 10.3.7 for the Mini, as later 'NDRV's were not compatible with OS 9, and OS 9 'NDRV's are not compatible with 10.4.x and later. Apple changed the ways 'NDRV's work, and didn't care about OS 9 compatibility.

So check if the display works correct in 10.3.7 on the Mini @1080P, if it doesn't, then you're not going to have a whole lot of success with it in OS 9.

Apple's documentation on 'NDRV's is next to useless, and only the people that wrote the 'NDRV' for Qemu's VGA can really help us, and I don't know who that was to ask, but I've never asked at the qemu-ppc mailing list.

I missed this the first time around, but I'm one of the people who hacked on the QEMU VGA NDRV; I added specific resolution and refresh settings.  I just recemtly pulled the VGA source out of my projects folder as I figured it wasn't needed anymore (the NDRV has since been updated to do dynamic detection of supported resolutions) but I can probably find it and pull it back.

The source code requires CodeWarrior 10 under OS 9 to modify and compile, but will provide you with a binary compatible NDRV file.  If you need something tweaked in the NDRV, you should be able to do it via this source.  The real person you'd want to ask, of course is Mark; ProgrammingKid may also have some insights.

However, I figure from your Voodoo2 work that you probably are further ahead on NDRV compilation and linking than I am already.  Together we could probably figure out what Apple patched and replicate that, but yeah; maybe someone on the qemu mail list already knows the answer; that woudl save a lot of time.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1146 on: May 25, 2020, 05:14:53 PM »
Not actually true; most people developing through 10.6 still targeted 10.4+ SDKs

most third party software was universal binary anyway when 10.6 came out - i was more thinking about the components of the OS itself.

did you f.e. try all the coreservices already?

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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1147 on: May 26, 2020, 09:11:30 AM »
Not actually true; most people developing through 10.6 still targeted 10.4+ SDKs

most third party software was universal binary anyway when 10.6 came out - i was more thinking about the components of the OS itself.

did you f.e. try all the coreservices already?

Yeah; in general, working well, but CI is still a bit borked.  The guys at MacOSRumours in https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/snow-leopard-on-unsupported-ppc-machines.2232031/ are working on this, using OpenDarwin sources combined with OS X 10.5.  One of the latest things they got working was the CUPS system, which oddly has enabled Software Update to start working, prompting to update everything to the latest x86 versions.

Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1148 on: May 29, 2020, 03:14:43 AM »
So, I have come with a small report to make.

Remember a year ago I used to have an issue booting from my 512GB PATA SSD on my Mac mini G4 1.5GHz, which led me to concoct this workaround?

In my post, I say this:

Throughout the whole post, I assume the boot issue I have both with the IDE device and the external FireWire drive is that their capacity is past 128 GB, regardless of how you partition them, and that the same issue would be present with USB devices past that capacity, as well.
I'll refer to the >128GB devices as "Big Drives" and to the <=128GB devices as "Small Drives".

Turns out this whole assumption was 100% wrong, because I can directly boot from a 2048 GB (2TB) M.2 Samsung EVO 860 SATA SSD using a cheap, nameless, excellent-working M.2-SATA-to-PATA/IDE adapter, on a different, 1.25Ghz mini (likely works on 1.5GHz minis, too).

This leaves me with the following conclusion: It was the disk firmware of both the Super Talent PATA SSD and the LaCie FireWire HDD that prevented direct booting into Mac OS on the Mac mini.

Well, at least it's good to have my workaround for some of the otherwise-incompatible devices out there. :) That SSD (and 1.5GHz mini) are still healthy and perfectly functional, with no single sign of wear or issues after extensive usage, with hundreds upon hundreds of GBs of data moved around and stored among hundreds of thousands of files.

Man. Direct booting is good. OS9 on a mini is also so good. They should seriously put them back into production, :D now with 7448 processors instead, which are already OS9-compatible and Mac-mini-motherboard-compatible... (One can theoretically still buy the processor for around 500 USD brand new and solder it into the board + adjust core voltage, clock it to 2GHz and have it run even cooler than it already does, with 1MB of L2 cache instead of 512KB.)

The exact product names are MC7448HX1700LD and MC7448VU1700LD (RoHS-compliant version), and NXP (the manufacturer, who bought Freescale) points to resellers here.
Note there are many other versions of the 7448 listed on that page, but they were confirmed to be stable only with lower clock speeds, so I only highlighted above the versions of interest (1.7GHz, easily reach 2.0GHz, can only go even higher with revised, epic cooling solutions).
How-to video (in case anyone has all the equipment + knowledge/expertise to try): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnpdLt4OIFs

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1149 on: May 29, 2020, 06:05:23 PM »

This leaves me with the following conclusion: It was the disk firmware of both the Super Talent PATA SSD and the LaCie FireWire HDD that prevented direct booting into Mac OS on the Mac mini.


for the SSD this could be, but as for the HDD you would have found the very first HDD which doesnt boot into OS9. :)
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1150 on: May 30, 2020, 08:39:24 AM »
for the SSD this could be, but as for the HDD you would have found the very first HDD which doesnt boot into OS9. :)

Really? Mine is exactly like this one, but a bit more up-to-date (FireWire only 800 and no 400, for example). LaCie says the minimum system requirement even for this older model is OS X 10.5, though it could be that they just didn't bother to mention others or whatever. I can use the drive on OS 9. Just not boot from it, no matter partition sizes or amount of partitions (much like the SSD).

Anyway, weird stuff. Now time to see if drives bigger than 2 TB can also work. :) Apple docs state OS 9 (but not 8 ) has a 2 TB size limit per partition (called "volume" in Apple parlance), but no mention about drive size limits... But somehow, I always assumed 2 TB would also be the drive limit. But I want to challenge that. At least I have personally used network volumes up to 4TB via AFP successfully under 9.2.2 without any problems, for many months so far. Impressively, this already goes beyond what Apple stated was the limit for OS 9 "volumes", but maybe AFP volumes are dealt with differently. (And, who knows, maybe some crazy bugs are just silently waiting for me to cross the 2 TB line, like evil gremlins.)

There's always so much fun to be had. :D

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1151 on: May 30, 2020, 09:17:09 AM »
yeah, the 2 TB is also per drive. thats because apple partition map ist 32 bit - the adress space gives you some 217 million adresses.

maybe you find out why that disk didnt work, it could be a lesson for all of us. the case is widely used on macs, no idea what drive they sell with it.
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1152 on: May 30, 2020, 12:28:39 PM »
yeah, the 2 TB is also per drive. thats because apple partition map ist 32 bit

Yeah, I feared that was the case. But you know what bothers me? This here:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=337&expand=_a3&action=b384#b384

With this, I was able to format and use a 4TB drive with APM, at least with the device this driver is made for. But this is only for OSX 10.4/10.5 (and maybe pre-release 10.6 now, I guess).

What also irks me is that Apple's docs say Jaguar's partition (volume) limit is 8TB, and Panther's 16TB. However, both of those systems only understand/recognize APM, and not GPT (GUID Partition Table). That would mean their actual limits would also be 2 TB... unless if I'm missing something.

Offline teroyk

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1153 on: May 30, 2020, 11:04:57 PM »
yeah, the 2 TB is also per drive. thats because apple partition map ist 32 bit
What also irks me is that Apple's docs say Jaguar's partition (volume) limit is 8TB, and Panther's 16TB. However, both of those systems only understand/recognize APM, and not GPT (GUID Partition Table). That would mean their actual limits would also be 2 TB... unless if I'm missing something.

Actually APM is 32-bit in sector numbers, but I didn't find where APM says sector size (at least in Mac OS 9), that 2 TB limit is with 512 byte sector size (normal sector size in OSX), but that is not limit. Anyway max 16 partitions in one drive APM limit.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

Offline teroyk

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1154 on: May 31, 2020, 01:31:01 AM »
You can make 64kB sector size with Silverlining Pro. So APM support at least 256 TB in one drive with Mac OS 9.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1155 on: May 31, 2020, 09:53:50 AM »
What also irks me is that Apple's docs say Jaguar's partition (volume) limit is 8TB

yeah, i also was curious about that difference, too, but the sector size - or an OSX software solution - is probably the answer to it.

playing with the sector size in an OS9 machine HD is something i would not like to do, though it makes totally sense for  a disk with mostly big files on it, i wouldnt count on 100% compatiblity of such a disk with other hard- and software.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1156 on: May 31, 2020, 09:57:42 AM »
so, for future reference & to get my starting statement right: there is a 2 TB limit in OS9 because of the way OS9 and 10.4/10.5īs built-in tools format your HDs - but in theory it can be even bigger.
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Offline teroyk

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1157 on: May 31, 2020, 11:55:32 AM »
so, for future reference & to get my starting statement right: there is a 2 TB limit in OS9 because of the way OS9 and 10.4/10.5īs built-in tools format your HDs - but in theory it can be even bigger.

Actually it seems that I have been used 4 kB sector size in my Powerbook over 10 years and HD is copied from my first Powerbook (that was formated in factory). I did copy with OSX10.5 Diskutility and resized with iPartition :) So it seems that bigger sector size work at least in OS9 and OSX10.3/10.4 in long run too.

Have ever tried to format with Drive Setup of Mac OS 9 over 2 TB disk? I haven't get it work any size of USB or FW-drive with it and it is hard to find over 2 TB ATAPI-disk.
I bought my first new Mac when OS X 10.1 released. And I bought that Mac because it had Mac OS 9 too. And I bought my first 68k Mac when Apple stopped PPC Macs.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1158 on: May 31, 2020, 12:20:11 PM »
i would like to to try it, but i only use 1,5 and 2,0 TB disks (because of the 2 TB limit :P )

well, the OS9 disk tool would simply only allow you to make partitions up to 2,15, that is clear.

edit:

i could try putting 2 currently empty 1.5 disks into spanning raid mode and try out silverlining with double sector size. but i need to know prior to it how adressing works when i use spanning. ??
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1159 on: June 03, 2020, 02:53:15 PM »
Anyone have any update on power management support?  I seem to be able to sleep from the Finder menu, but I've been wanting to get Wake on LAN working, and I think we still don't have the right code in place to support this; is that correct? Is there anything I could provide that could help move this forward?

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1160 on: June 04, 2020, 02:06:47 AM »
maybe there is another software which you can replace sleeper with which supports that?
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Offline adespoton

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1161 on: June 04, 2020, 08:25:41 AM »
maybe there is another software which you can replace sleeper with which supports that?

Hmm... I'll have to plumb the depths of my memory and see if I can remember an Energy Saver replacement with WoL support.  It may come down to having to write it myself.  That may take a few years.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1162 on: June 04, 2020, 12:47:31 PM »
the init which would do this should have the following functionality:

 - do nothing for 5 minutes
 - detect incoming network traffic
 - move mouse for 1 pixel
 - repeat

any takers?

once we get hibernation working, detecting network traffic will become a bit more difficult, hahaha. :D
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1163 on: June 05, 2020, 09:41:53 AM »
the init which would do this should have the following functionality:

 - do nothing for 5 minutes
 - detect incoming network traffic
 - move mouse for 1 pixel
 - repeat

any takers?

once we get hibernation working, detecting network traffic will become a bit more difficult, hahaha. :D

Actually, you'd have to do it like this:

- do nothing for 5 minutes
- wake
- check network buffer for magic packet
- If not present, sleep

But that's only to support all hardware capable of sleep.  For the G4 Mini and other hardware from the same era, this is all handled in hardware; the Ethernet port stays active during sleep, and if the magic packet is received, the interface sends the wake command.  This is a feature that can be toggled on and off via software; Energy Saver does it, Sleeper does not (but instead passes the task off to Energy Saver to handle).  Since Energy Saver is not aware of the more modern PMU in the G4 Mini, this function doesn't work, as there's no way to set the correct flag.

So the better fix is just to figure out how to programatically set the flag on the PMU and let hardware handle the rest.

The other alternative would be to put a hardware monitor in-line between the Ethernet cable and the port, that polls the line for the magic packet going to the right MAC ID, and then sends a mouse click event to a USB port if this is detected.  Seems like something an Arduino Nano Ethernet could pull off, or if you've got the device physically near another always-on device, you could just bridge the two with a USB or Firewire cable, and have the other device monitor for the MAC and packet in promiscuous mode, and send a pulse down the line when it's seen.

The more I think about it, this is probably more along the route I'll go; I've got a server sitting beside the boxes I want to wake, so I can just set up a cable that sends a signal, and remote into the server to trigger the wakeup.

That's if we can't get PMU handling working right ;)

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1164 on: June 05, 2020, 10:40:28 AM »
maybe that what wakes the apple control panel is an apple event?
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1165 on: June 05, 2020, 03:30:37 PM »
To complicate things even further, back as far as System 7.1, some hardware was able to BOOT if data came in on the serial port (eg, modem ring).  By 1998, I believe all hardware had Ethernet (and the modem for those that had it) linked to the PMU, but the "boot on ring" feature was gone, replaced with "wake on ring".

Say... my Minis have a modem port, and do support wake on ring!  Maybe I'll just hook THAT up to a USB cable that can spike the line level....

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1166 on: June 23, 2020, 11:29:09 AM »
so, no reports yet about booting the developer trasition kit mac mini into OS9?

now i am disappointed.

jk.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1167 on: June 25, 2020, 04:35:30 PM »
Don't know if I'm posting at the right place, but I'll try my luck...
I have begun to do sound and music work again, and I'm trying to assemble a working setup using a Mac Mini 1.42 and DIGI 002, OSX and OS9.
My old setup is an OS9 DA with DIGI 001. It works, but I have come to appreciate the relative silence of working with Powerbooks. Hence the project to rebuild my studio setup around a Mini.
I have downloaded and installed the Mini-OS9 disk image v.9. It works pretty well, but there are some quirks I'd like to investigate:

Video: I have a 1920x1080 monitor. When plugged in DVI, I get full resolution from startup to the end of the extensions parade, just to where the desktop normally appears. After that the screen goes black. If I adapt to VGA, all is fine. But I'd really like if it worked from DVI, as I usually use a DVI KVM in my setup. I have this feeling there's not much missing if it starts at the right resolution... any clues?

Time: Strangely enough, there's always a four-hour offset in the clock displayed time between OS9 and OSX. If I adjust one to be right, the other one will be wrong! What Gives?

This said, hey, thanks for the wonderful work done!!   This is pretty awesome.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 05:11:17 PM by P.O. »

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1168 on: June 25, 2020, 06:35:56 PM »
Don't know if I'm posting at the right place, but I'll try my luck...
I have begun to do sound and music work again, and I'm trying to assemble a working setup using a Mac Mini 1.42 and DIGI 002, OSX and OS9.
My old setup is an OS9 DA with DIGI 001. It works, but I have come to appreciate the relative silence of working with Powerbooks. Hence the project to rebuild my studio setup around a Mini.
I have downloaded and installed the Mini-OS9 disk image v.9. It works pretty well, but there are some quirks I'd like to investigate:

Video: I have a 1920x1080 monitor. When plugged in DVI, I get full resolution from startup to the end of the extensions parade, just to where the desktop normally appears. After that the screen goes black. If I adapt to VGA, all is fine. But I'd really like if it worked from DVI, as I usually use a DVI KVM in my setup. I have this feeling there's not much missing if it starts at the right resolution... any clues?

Time: Strangely enough, there's always a four-hour offset in the clock displayed time between OS9 and OSX. If I adjust one to be right, the other one will be wrong! What Gives?

This said, hey, thanks for the wonderful work done!!   This is pretty awesome.
Trash the display preference file.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1169 on: June 25, 2020, 07:36:04 PM »
No Joy. I trashed display preference from OSX. Restarted in OS9, went well and the desktop appeared after a brief blackout at the end of extensions parade, but my mouse pointer froze (although click worked), couldn't do anything, had to force quit.
Subsequents OS9 starts led me where I was before: permanent blackout instead of desktop. Display preference file gone for good...

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1170 on: June 25, 2020, 11:22:05 PM »
Time: Strangely enough, there's always a four-hour offset in the clock displayed time between OS9 and OSX. If I adjust one to be right, the other one will be wrong! What Gives?

i had this for years until i reactivated the network time extension in OS9 again in around 2007.

i think this happens when you dont have the correct time zone set in either system but then remove the timezone control panel.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1171 on: June 26, 2020, 02:09:16 AM »
I find this strange as the time zone is set as the same place on both systems. I guess activating network time would be an easy fix, but this mini is not on any network, and I do not want it to connect to the internet.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1172 on: June 26, 2020, 04:25:14 AM »
mb it is conincidence but it was 4 hours for me, too.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1173 on: June 26, 2020, 04:29:00 AM »
No, I think it is a planned conspiration.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1174 on: June 26, 2020, 06:33:30 AM »
No Joy. I trashed display preference from OSX. Restarted in OS9, went well and the desktop appeared after a brief blackout at the end of extensions parade, but my mouse pointer froze (although click worked), couldn't do anything, had to force quit.
Subsequents OS9 starts led me where I was before: permanent blackout instead of desktop. Display preference file gone for good...

Hmmmm..................

I thought the @Elliot fixed the mouse freeze issue and that was included in the V9 CD?

Also, you have the latest Radeon drivers for OS 9?

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1175 on: June 26, 2020, 07:21:44 AM »
Well it seems to be OK now: I got it to work with the mini directly connected to the monitor with DVI when I trashed the Monitor preference folder in OS9.
When I go through the DVI KVM things don't play well and get unreliable.
I reverted to a VGA DVI, it's working well except that my DA won't go to 1920x1080 when connected in VGA.
What are these "latest Radeon drivers"? Am I supposed to pick and place them by hand?  I got "ATI Radeon 3D accelerator".

As for the time offset, I guess someone is trying to tell us OS9 is ahead of its time...

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1176 on: June 26, 2020, 08:16:09 AM »
Well it seems to be OK now: I got it to work with the mini directly connected to the monitor with DVI when I trashed the Monitor preference folder in OS9.
When I go through the DVI KVM things don't play well and get unreliable.
I reverted to a VGA DVI, it's working well except that my DA won't go to 1920x1080 when connected in VGA.
What are these "latest Radeon drivers"? Am I supposed to pick and place them by hand?  I got "ATI Radeon 3D accelerator".

As for the time offset, I guess someone is trying to tell us OS9 is ahead of its time...

I thought these maybe included in the v9 CD?

https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx

I'd say your KVM does something the Mac OS doesn't like over DVI, not much that can be done about that.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1177 on: June 26, 2020, 08:34:54 AM »

I thought these maybe included in the v9 CD?

https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx


Maybe the bits are there, but there certainly is no such installer on my disk...

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1178 on: June 26, 2020, 11:26:55 AM »
Quote
Anyway, weird stuff. Now time to see if drives bigger than 2 TB can also work. :) Apple docs state OS 9 (but not 8 ) has a 2 TB size limit per partition (called "volume" in Apple parlance), but no mention about drive size limits... But somehow, I always assumed 2 TB would also be the drive limit. But I want to challenge that. At least I have personally used network volumes up to 4TB via AFP successfully under 9.2.2 without any problems, for many months so far. Impressively, this already goes beyond what Apple stated was the limit for OS 9 "volumes", but maybe AFP volumes are dealt with differently. (And, who knows, maybe some crazy bugs are just silently waiting for me to cross the 2 TB line, like evil gremlins.)

There's always so much fun to be had.

OK, So of course it's time to further muddy up the G4 Mini Topic, I just wanted to throw out some pennies (2 cents)

1)  For newbies, the large drive obsession where some of our senior members are pushing the limits of OS 9, is a great 'theoretical" discussion; and a "cool experiment" but it's best to stick to Volumes of 200GB or less in the real world of an OS9 Audio / Video G4 that has a mechanical drive; as discussed many times here, many de fragmenting apps will run out of RAM (in OS 9) if you go bigger.  Of course you can boot to OSX (or a modified OS X CD) and run a drefrag, but this adds levels of complexity for the average users.  In a real world studio environment, de fragmenting a G4 DAW when using mechanical drives is kinda critical over time.

Also the ability to run file system checks and repairs also will also be effected when playing with volume sizes that were not even conceived of in 1999.  As far as SSD drives, no need to defragment, but the ability to run file system checks and repairs also will also be effected in OS 9 on larger than 200GB since many utilities run out of RAM when inspecting these mega volumes if they are close to full.

2)  The max number of files or files/folders under a single folder is a hard limit of 32K, the overall HFS Plus (Mac OS Extended) volume can do a lot more, but the single folder limit starts to come into play when you are using MegaVolumes... for example, if your neat freak, and you create a Volume called "Media" and then make folder called "Audio Samples" ; if you load that up with all the stuff you bought and torrented you can easily hit the max of 32,767 files or files/folders under that folder. So again, the smaller volume sizes (when it comes to an OS9 only G4) make sense. 

3) some apps will create harded limits, like Avid Media Composer
Quote
However, with respect to the Disk Cache setting we use for Avid Systems (96k) this seriously limits the amount of files to a folder to about 1200
https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/troubleshooting/en250749
So it's always good to research your main apps to make sure you plan your Volumes and Folders wisely

4) Lastly, as a side note, remember the relationship of block size when storing files on legacy systems. The best choice for Large volumes / drives under OS9 is HFS Plus because of Volume Sizes and max entries; but they actually made a big mistake IMO. Under HFS Plus, they actually LOWERED the default block size from HFS 16KB to HFS Plus 4KB, since they were concerned about tiny files eating up disk space (ex. 1 KB file under HFS ate 16KB of space). This was, IMO, a dumb move, disk space is cheap and Media files are huge, how many people write a ton of 1 KB text notes anyway ?  A file size that looks benign in today's world, say 345,098 Bytes needs a hell of a lot of 4kb blocks and thus a shitload directory entries to store the file. Thus increasing file system overhead and fragmentation unnecessarily. On a G4 DAW a good block size would be 32KB.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 11:40:32 AM by DieHard »

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1179 on: June 26, 2020, 02:28:38 PM »
Quote
Anyway, weird stuff. Now time to see if drives bigger than 2 TB can also work. :)

there are 3000 members in the facebook group, but noone seems to be able to hook iup a spare 10 TB drive to his mac. would be great if some of us could one day actually test that: connect it, format it with silverlining with 8-times the normal sector size, copy at least 2,5 TB data on it, read these files again, and and and ... it is quite some work.

yes, and then t here are media composer, protools, disk repair utils ...  those need a practice test, too.

afp? well that is not exactly the same as using a drive under OS9, but you know that. :)

Quote
1)  For newbies, the large drive obsession where some of our senior members are pushing the limits of OS 9, is a great 'theoretical" discussion; and a "cool experiment" but it's best to stick to Volumes of 200GB or less in the real world of an OS9 Audio / Video G4 that has a mechanical drive

i guess you are right that the boot drive or the "audio" drive should not be something in an experimental status with yet to discover boundaries or problems.

however, if you are a collector or if you work with data mining, you might need more than a total of 2*120 Gb in your house.

the use of a 20 TB HD which is also redable under MacOS9 has reasoning:

 - it might be easier to maintain or

 - it might be even cheaper to buy 2*20 TB compared to 20*2 TB.

for example for 2*20 TB you would need 2 8-port firewire hubs, and that is not really funny to work like that, and it is not really fun to buy those new for 180 euros because you just dont find them second hand.

however, if you really need 40 TB of storage, you are good advised not to do that with 400 100gb drives if you know what i mean. and i am not only talking about the women acceptance factor here.


Quote
if you load that up with all the stuff you bought and torrented you can easily hit the max of 32,767 files or files/folders under that folder. So again, the smaller volume sizes

that is an important advise, too. i have had smaller and bigger issues several times with b-tree errors on disks after unstuffing thousands of files or similar tasks. and that is with 1.5 gig RAM and no other apps open.

and btw. it only happens in OS9, not 10.4.

general rule in 110 land for is to try not to have more than 2000 files in one folder and not to process more than 500-1000 at the same time / in a single task.

storage of textfiles and images in larger amounts happens using toast image file here.

i recently had a broken volume on a 1,5 Tb disk. it was one of 3 of 500 mb each. we all know what would have happened if there would have only 1 partition.

always work with compromises when organizing modular structures, graphs and trees.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 02:44:22 PM by IIO »
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1180 on: June 26, 2020, 02:43:50 PM »
oh and one should of course not have more than 25 volumes all together, because - in case you need them all together from time to time - otherwise they wont automount after reboot.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1181 on: June 26, 2020, 02:57:13 PM »
oh and one should of course not have more than 25 volumes all together, because - in case you need them all together from time to time - otherwise they wont automount after reboot.
Yes, I forgot to mention that which can be an issue for those that have many volumes :(

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1182 on: June 27, 2020, 12:38:28 AM »
last year i have said goodbye to all external IDE disks and now i only have a maximum of 28 volumes required, it is already planned to limit the number further. (the orange ones are optional disks and not part of any workflow)

imagine such a desktop in a mac mini G4 with a single built-in 40 TB SSD, thatīs the future.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1183 on: July 26, 2020, 11:16:41 PM »
I just want to thank all of the people who's hard work went into this project.

I purchased a G4 mini (A1103) and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with it after I maxed out the memory and added a M.2 SSD to IDE card.
I also have an iMac G4 1.25 17" with USB 2.0 that's also in the works for upgrades that I planned on running 10.4 on.

And then I found this project, and got the mini all installed and operational. (Now to figure out all the nuances of OS9, and what else I want/can do with the machine, now that it has a purpose).

So, again - thanks. I appreciate your dedication to keeping old hardware usable even in 2020.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1184 on: July 31, 2020, 03:55:40 AM »
I recently bought a Mini specifically because of this work, and I have to say the end result is very impressive. Here are some notes from my experience with a from-scratch Ross v9 install.

The initial install process was slightly tricky on v9, specifically because for whatever reason with my setup, the mouse would get stuck on the edge of the screen after a few seconds. I worked around this by unplugging/plugging the mouse repeatedly and doing as much as I could in the two seconds after plug that the mouse would work. Thankfully the install process is simple enough that there's not a whole lot that needs to be done in that environment, and if I were to guess it was probably due to the monitor I was using being finicky with the install image.

However once the install was done and I was running off the hard disk the mouse worked normally. Honestly everything runs extremely well for my purposes short of sound. I also had some interesting experiences with monitors that I thought would be of wider benefit.

I didn't want to dedicate desk space for an older monitor specifically for the Mini, so I tried it with the monitors I already had hooked up for my primary system; since they're all >1080p, the Mini was connected via a DVI->HDMI adapter. The monitor I was initially running with was an Acer X27, specifically because I couldn't get a signal at all from the Mini on an LG 24UD58-B. On the X27 however, the Mini would only sync at 1024x768 maximum. Based on reading other posts here, I was concerned it'd be nearly impossible to get 1920x1080 over DVI on OS 9, especially with the HDMI adapter. Regardless, I tried with an LG 27GL850 and to my surprise, it connected at 1920x1080 60hz immediately with no issues. So long story short, the Mini is _really_ picky about what monitors it'll work properly with, but it is possible with certain models to get 1080p 60hz out of it, even on displays with greater than 1080p native resolution.

Another fun thing to note: the Dual Shock 4 works natively with Input Sprocket games on OS 9 over USB  8)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 06:09:40 AM by jmsq »

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1185 on: August 03, 2020, 07:42:09 PM »
Great News!

As context I am running the Mac Mini G4 1.5 Ghz. For those that are using a DVI to HDMI adapter and are unable to achieve full resolution (1920x1080 @ 60Hz), I was able to get a working combination of display drivers that both allow me to get full resolution (on a BenQ PD2700U 4K monitor) and have working 2D/3D hardware acceleration.

With v9 of the OS 9 build for the Mac Mini G4, I was getting 2D/3D hardware acceleration but was unable to change resolutions above 1280x1024 without my display doing weird things. I am using a DVI to HDMI converter which may be part of the problem.

After experimenting with various driver combinations found in various posts, I was able to get a working combination (on v9) that both gives me full 1920x1080 @ 60Hz resolution as well as hardware acceleration for 2D/3D gaming.

I am using SwitchRes to manage the resolutions and color depth, and generally scale down the resolution for gaming.

The following (attached) driver combination seems to allow my Mac Mini G4 to run, fully hardware accelerated, at 1920x1080 @ 60Hz. The experimental RockHopper driver seems to make your machine think its' using a VGA monitor, which unlocks many more resolutions than what is available with the native DVI implementation.

I am running the v9 build of the Mac Mini G4 OS 9 from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2408.1050.html

The base set of extensions comes from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4277.msg29392.html#msg29392

and the modified RockHopper driver comes from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5009.0.html

To install, just replace your existing drivers in the Extensions folder (I recommend putting your existing drivers in the "Extensions (Disabled)" folder so you can revert if you need to.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 06:28:21 PM by pixlgeek »

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1186 on: August 04, 2020, 09:29:15 AM »
Thank you pixlgeek, I am sure this will be useful to many :)

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1187 on: August 08, 2020, 08:42:20 AM »
Hi,

I recently got from flea market a silent upgrade mini G4, that is the machine with 1.5 GHz CPU and 64 MB instead of 32 MB video RAM, I replaced the quite fast!! HDD with my usual msata-to-2,5ide 128 GB drive, it has DWD-RW superdrive instead of the ususal  combo drive, otherwise totally identical to other G4 mini's except the last thing it has bluetooth 2.0 instead of v1.

I burned OS9 v9 installer found here (my last try was v8 on a regular 1,25 GHz Mini quite a long time ago). Against the advice I used digital DVI cable with my Samsung syncmaster A450 1680x1050 TFT. The very same cable with this mini works OOB with 10.4 and 10.5, properly giving 1680x1050@60Hz resolution under OSX.

While booting the CD I got extremely confusing visuals that stayed during the install. The image was there, but it was garbled somewhat, I quickly got into the Samsung internal menu in the monitor and the info section revealed the mini is sending 840x1050 pixel resolution @60 Hz. Instead of 1680 pixels witdh I got half, 840 px. Althought it was barely readable (as every second column of pixels were missing from the vision, I installed v9 from muscle memory).

After reboot I got the same 840x1050px resolution (based on monitor's internal menu) with full ATI acceleration. I launched Monitors control panel, where I started to lower the resolution, until I reached 832x624@75Hz, where I got a clear image...

... I did not tried yet the modified rockhopper2 drivers.

What I found weird is that the picture is almost there, I mean number of pixels divided by two is the only issue I have with this monitor...
Cheers!
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