Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)

[cc333]

Wow! This thread is quite a read-- it took me 4 days!

Did anyone ever figure out the PMU and sound issues, or is this considered done?

I actually have a G4 Mini (don't recall the specs), so I'll have to give this a try...

c

[Astroman]

As mentioned earlier: any compatible USB sound device will do.
I got a tiny M-Audio Transit for about 20bucks, the first version of the M-Box is also known to work. For a more sophisticated multi-channel mixer setup the Tascam FW devices (Firewire) are very affordable. They have an OS-9 driver, but of course may need some extra check for mechanical function (featuring motor faders).

[tommi]

hi folks

i´m still very fond of my OS9 powered mac mini - it works great as a playback machine

but

to Keep it simple

short question: did anyone manage to do some new recordings successfully ? if so, please give some details about interface hw and daw sw that was involved

thx a lot in advance
tommi

[Jubadub]

So, I finally thought of upgrading my mini's 40GB HDD (Fujitsu) with a 512GB SSD (Super Talent) and suddenly Mac OS 9 and Drive Setup (both 1.9.2 and 2.1) won't even see the "disk". I cannot get to even initialize or partition it, under OS 9. I also tried Hard Disk SpeedTools 3.6 (from an external FW disk) and same symptoms.

Other relevant info:
- Mac OS X Tiger sees, formats and partitions the SSD just fine;
- This exact SSD works with OS 9.2.2 on a G3 Wallstreet (RIP) (although it only sees its max size as 128GB, since it's a G3 Mac);
- I tried making OS 9 see it on the mini by formatting the SSD on Tiger another 2 times, the first with "Install Mac OS 9 Drivers" selected and the second time not selected. Same results.
- Just in case, I tried partitioning every partition with no more than 60 GB, but the drive is still not seen in OS 9 on the mini.

When I format the SSD with the V8's install image (using OS X's "restore" on disk utility) and/or when I mount the image and drag, from OS X, the contents into another partition, when I "alt-boot", I see 1 OS 9 boot option appears (although nameless), but when booting from it, I get the same symptom I did as when I tried booting OS 9 on the mini from a 1TB LaCie FireWire external hard drive: a diskette icon with a question mark in it.
The install image is the one called "Macintosh HD", by the way.

I never used partition sizes greater than 192GB for OS 9. I also tried partitions lower than 128 GB. No use. OS9 on mini won't see the drive, and OS9 on mini won't boot if otherwise installed on the drive.

Any ideas? Thoughts?


The one thing I realized I did not try yet (on both my internal SSD and my external FW drive) is to use HFS as opposed to HFS+, which I'll attempt shortly, although I'm not optimistic about that working out. Other than that, considering the same drive works on another OS-9-equipped Mac, is to try another version of the hacked Mac OS ROM or, worse yet, try inspecting the ROM to see what's wrong (which I completely lack the skill to do as of now).

I also wonder if maximum drive size could have anything to do with it. Or if it's because it is specifically a "Super Talent" drive.

[FdB]

Jumper or selector "setting" set correctly to “Master” on your adapter / SSD “bridge”?

[Jubadub]

I wasn't sure if jumper settings could be related, but good call! (I'm so unused to IDE/PATA!)
There are no jumpers set in place on the IDE SSD pins, which means, according to Super Talent's documentation, that it is set to "slave", and not "master". (The document is made for their IDE SSDs up to 128GB, but I figure it should still apply. I didn't find separate documentation for their 256GB and 512GB drives.)

I'll add a jumper there later tonight! Thanks for the idea!

[FdB]

The ONLY reason I thought to mention it was that when I installed the first SSD here “at the ranch” in a mini, using a sled adapter… at the very last moment I read the small, one-sheet instructions that mentioned those settings. Otherwise, I’ve been known to chase my own tail before…

Whatever your previous installed drive’s jumper setting was… well, that’s it.

Have fun with that hotter, faster performance!

[IIO]

Did anyone ever figure out the PMU and sound issues, or is this considered done?

when i rember right the current state is something like "we first need to code our own coding tools to fully disassemble the missing parts of the mac os rom, firmware and system" because that might be less work than fixing issue by issue. (we have yet some powerbooks to happen)

[Jubadub]

So, I set the SSD to be "master" with a jumper and, while I think the setting was successfully set, sadly there were some issues...

- The CD/DVD drive doesn't work / is not seen anymore (and it doesn't look like there is a way for me to set that to "slave", is there? It is part of the same IDE interface, though...);
- I can't "alt-boot" anymore, as it locks up / freezes the Mac. This happens both when the SSD is completely empty (recently-formatted) and when I try "restoring an image" via Tiger's Disk Utility with both an image of Ross' v8 disc and of the "Macintosh HD" disc image that comes within, each to a different partition of the SSD (since I can't use the CD/DVD drive to boot into OS 9), and then I "alt-boot". I guess it could be that it tries to "see" the v8 CD I have inside the mini (or maybe even if it is empty?), but failing because the CD/DVD drive is unavailable?

Within OS X, the drive is now seen as "disk0" instead of "disk1", but I can't tell if that's because it was set to be "master", or if it defaulted to that because the CD/DVD drive isn't detected.

Since Tiger (and Ubuntu) could use the SSD before I set the drive to "master", maybe the original problem I'm having with OS 9 is unrelated to jumper settings?

In any case, I'm nearly out of ideas, just like it happened with my plans to boot OS 9 via my 1TB LaCie FW drive. |:

Edit / Note: Setting the SSD into "Cable Select" mode makes it behave like it did when no jumpers were set ("slave").

[FdB]

I could be mistaken about “Master / Cable Select” jumper setting (memory fog from time to time) but did you check the original jumper setting on the drive that you removed from the mini for reference?

I also seem to recall (there’s that fog again) installing one SSD… first into a Quicksilver (running OS 9.2.2) as a “slave” where it was partitioned & formatted (& also possibly installing the OS there as well) - before then changing the jumper setting to Master and placing it into a mini.

Just removed an original Samsung 160GB HD from an open mini here and it has no jumpers on… and is thusly in “Master” mode.

Could it be that your CD/DVD drive is not correctly re-installed? Check-check, double-check everything / ya know? And of course it could all be related to something else entirely. (i.e. “things” not adequately connected or re-seated, etc.) Also, re-check/review just exactly how Master setting jumper is to be set on that SSD… proper up/down and side-to-side orientation.

AND your SSD is a "direct-connect" requiring NO adapter?

[Jubadub]

AND your SSD is a "direct-connect" requiring NO adapter?

Yup, a "direct-connect" IDE drive, no adapters used.

My mini's previous drive had no jumpers on it. If I understand its surface label correctly, no jumpers = Master mode. According to that PDF I linked to, it's supposedly the opposite of my SSD drive (for which no jumpers = Slave mode).

I made sure not to mistake which side of the drive should be facing up or down, and I also made sure the jumpers were properly put where they should be. I'll keep quadruple-checking everything, though.

I wonder, however, regardless of jumper settings, why Mac OS X and GNU/Linux see and handle it just fine in either case/configuration. And why vanilla OS 9.2.2, on a G3 WallStreet laptop, does too.

But seriously, I greatly appreciate your support, it helps me pull through the ordeal. I'll keep trying things on my end, and keep you posted.

[Jubadub]

UM, WHAT?!

I accidentally got OS 9 booted on the mini... not from IDE/PATA, not from FW... BUT USB?! AND THAT TOO WITHOUT OPEN FIRMWARE MANUAL INPUTS?! WTF?!

https://i.imgur.com/c7HDCVa.png

Did anyone else give this a shot?! Has this ever happened to anyone with OS 9, especially on the mini, and that too without any Open Firmware commands?


Although, damn, USB 2 is SO much slower than FireWire 400, let alone IDE/PATA (HDD or SSD), it's not even funny. But it is... serviceable.

(Note: it doesn't seem like Drive Setup can initialize USB drives, but you can initialize/partition them in OS X, then boot into OS 9 and use Apple Software Restore on it instead, which is how you can format USB drives with HFS as opposed to HFS+ if desired, something we can't do in OS X, nor even in GNU/Linux with GParted if your HFS partition is bigger than 2 GB.)

[FdB]

Undoubtedly, directly attributable to that south-of-the-equator Coriolis effect!!!

But seriously now… unbelieveable.

Will now have to attempt same, as time permits.

Bookmarked!

Now tell us that you can “see” the SSD, mount V8 disc in CD/DVD
and then hopefully format and then install V8 on that SSD?

(Too soon?)

[Jubadub]

Now tell us that you can “see” the SSD, mount V8 disc in CD/DVD
and then hopefully format and then install V8 on that SSD?

(Too soon?)

Nah, no wa--- WHAT?!

Impossible. No. What. It saw the drive.

Also, while I'm overjoyed, it's still early to celebrate, as this thing is behaving like my FW drive, meaning it's able to have OS 9 installed on it, but fails to boot (by showing a diskette icon with a question mark, as opposed to showing a folder icon with both a question mark and a Mac OS logo trading places with one another, within said folder icon).

Still, at least I can SEE the drive under OS 9 now!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, the USB OS 9 boot has a little trick / explanation to it that I noticed. It will never show as an option during "option-boot" / "alt-boot", but it can be selected as an OS 9 startup disk, and it will work. It will also work when you try to boot OS 9 unsuccessfully (like when I try to boot OS 9 from my FW or internal SSD drives), because then it starts searching for other OS 9 sources for booting, and that's when it sees the USB drive and boots from it (and that's how I discovered this).

While you need a "proxy" to select USB OS 9 as a Startup Disk once, from there on you never have to do it again, unless you change the default OS you'll boot into. Because then you have to redo this process. The v8 disc works just fine as said proxy.

[Jubadub]

That Happy MacTron and floppy icon are put up by the early 68k environment. The disk starts working but then the early MacOS can’t mount it.

I just tried using this as a cue to trying to understand the base problem, so I figured that, perhaps, trying to boot in a way that would be "very friendly" to very old Macs could help. So I installed OS 9 on an HFS (non-HFS+) partition smaller than 2 GB (which once was the partition size limit for the original HFS on very old Macs).

Alas, however, my innocent thinking had the same problem yield.

EDIT: I noticed something kinda big/important: Drive Setup 1.9.2 only sees 128GB of my SSD, while Drive Setup 2.1 sees the whole 512GB. Can anyone else try seeing if this is also true on non-mini Macs, as well, for internal PATA / IDE drives that exceed 128GB?

In any case, to me it feels more and more that, as far as booting from OS 9 on the mini goes, at least with the current hacked ROM, it's important that the drive, external or internal, does not exceed 128 GB in capacity. Just a hunch...
By the way, wasn't there some special adapter that could be used on G3 and some G4 Macs to bypass the hardware-related 128GB internal PATA / IDE limit? I know there was also a software-only solution, but that was for OS X only as far as I know, so an actual physical adapter that bypasses that would be interesting for me to try out.

EDIT 2: Was the Power Mac G4 Cube one of the G4 Macs affected by the 128GB problem? (EDIT 3: Yes.) I wonder if another Mac model being chosen for spoofing could solve this issue. Although I guess that'd likely make the ROM not work on the mini... EDIT 4: Earlier, the QuickSilver 2002 was used for spoofing by ELN at some point, but due to sound issue reports, it was quickly reverted back to the G4 Cube: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5049 One thing to notice, however, is that the QuickSilver 2002 did not have the 128GB limit, so I wonder if that matters for the mini...

[Astroman]

There is no USB-2 support in OS9, what you experienced was the fall back of the port to USB-1 speed settings. I never had trouble booting from USB media (and used it), but it's a true snail.

Regarding the 128GB barrier: be careful. There are large drives that pretend to work, but they will start overwriting once anything is located beyond 128 GB.
Iirc this applies to the boot drive, but not to 'non-blessed' disks, according to my faint memory.

A 512GB PATA SSD is a rare object, they may use a special onboard controller.
Since OS9 doesn't manage SSDs, leave at least 100GB unpartitioned as a spare region for internal drive management.

[Jubadub]

USB 1 speed settings? The time it takes to boot certainly makes it feel like that, even though OS 9 called it "USB 2.1.1" (which can be seen on my earlier screenshot). A snail indeed. Still, first time I hear of this being a thing! Pretty cool.

I'd be surprised if this drive doesn't actually deliver its 512GB promise properly, I hope that is not the case, but only time will tell, and I'll make sure to use it with the assumption it will work. At least, I certaintly paid the price for such a drive...
128 GB version: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Talent-2-5-Inch-Internal-FE8128MD2D/dp/B00L53B6W2
512 GB version: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Talent-DuraDrive-512GB-Solid/dp/B014KLAKJA
Thanks for the warning, though! It may save me in the future.

By not managing SSDs, you mean OS 9 lacks TRIM, right? If so, yeah, IIRC overall SSD manufacturers say to then leave between 10% to 20% of its maximum capacity unused (roughly 51GB to 102 GB in my case), with the % needing to be increasingly higher the higher the capacity (20% was needed for 2 TB drives IIRC, while between 10% to 15% would suffice for a 512GB drive like mine).
However, I do remember clearly they state that, contrary to popular belief, you don't actually need to leave that data unpartitioned, as the drive does its internal management regardless of partitions (with the argument being along the lines of partitions having no relevancy on the drive firmware level, only higher). As long as the sum of unused space across all partitions (and unpartitioned space) matches the target %, it should be good.
If I find the source for my statements, I'll post the link here. The latter bit I'm pretty sure was on Kingston's website, on some corner.

[Astroman]

tbh I don't know very much about the internals of SSD management, so it may well be that the drive doesn't care about where the blocks are located as long as enough are available.

My concern about the drive's possible problems are based on my attempts to replace a PATA Zip drive in a Roland SP808 sampler by some flash storage medium.

A journey that left me with 4 IDE storage bays and a dozen CF Cards of various size and type.
Nothing ever worked except those PCMCIA cards that Cisco used in their network routers.
Not worth mentioning if the SP808 wouldn't have a twin: the Edirol A6, which is the same hardware with different key labels - and this runs flawless with any of the media that failed on the SP808. (verified by loading the A6 firmware to the SP808)

Things under hood of ATA/IDE can be tricky and sometimes mysterious.

[drzeissler]

What is the newest version of the G4-OS9-CD and is there a changelog?
Will the sound-driver issue every be fixed, or do I have to use speakers with volumecontrol?
What do you use?
I will use tripple-boot: 10.4.11 / 9.2.2 / Morphos

[Astroman]

The sound driver issues are unlikely to be fixed (not worth the effort writing for a rather humble hardware), but can be bypassed by installing the drivers of the M-Audio Transit USB interface.
As reported by someone here this fixes the issues even without the Transit physically present.