Author Topic: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 38118 times)

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #675 on: June 11, 2018, 10:05:16 AM »
centering is complicatd but you can move the window by moving its WIND or DLG resources right in resdit. the possition will be s aved to all other possibly needed flags in other resources.

i am using a modified app myslef, with green background a disabled command-key for formatting in the menubar since syste 7, so i can tell by heart it has regular window resources. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #676 on: June 11, 2018, 10:09:08 AM »
good that i havee macos9 minis, so that i can easily look it up :D

DLOG ID 256

then in resedit: resource menu in menubar / "autoposition" / lets you center with 2 clicks.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #677 on: June 11, 2018, 10:11:56 AM »
Cheers IIO I'll try it
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #678 on: June 11, 2018, 10:14:15 AM »
...
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Online DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #679 on: June 11, 2018, 10:31:50 AM »
Diehard, I did actually include both versions of drive setup on the Mac mini CD (1.9.2 and 2.1), the one that opens when you startup is 2.1, but 1.9.2 is found in:
Mac mini OS 9 CD:Applications:Drive Setup 1.9.2
That is great, your higher self knew it would be needed :)

And that is cool, with 1.9.2, I can initialise FW disks from the Mac mini.
M.A.R.L. Labs was right again, this makes no sense that the older version succeeds and v2.1 doen not (Fuc&ing Apple, same old shit), but it has proven to be true, this is great news for those who want to run the mini with an External FW drive, also remember, that daisy chaining off the single FW port should work !  It is critical, IMO, you power all FW devices if you attempt this and NOT draw too many amps from the little mini logic board

Although, the version of drive setup on my Titanium PowerBook is v2.1, and that can format FW drives, but only on the ti and not the mini. (don't have any other os 9 machines to test)
Really, now that is unexpected; again, makes no sense as usual, since version 2.1 does NOT work on QS Tower or MDD when wanting to partition FW drives, HDST app with work, but search the forum, I am not a fan of Hard disk speed Tools these days since it modifies the disk drivers and can sometimes cause drives that are moved to a different mac not to mount... I am guessing the TI working with drive setup 2.1 on FW drives is a real mystery; maybe the guy at apple developed it on a TI and did not test it on other units and the "bug" was never realized. IMO, it has to be a bug... unless the goal was to remove functionality from the last version 2.1

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #680 on: June 11, 2018, 10:40:52 AM »
that is where this utility called "Tiger" comes to play; it formats your firewiredisks and even allows partitions. ;)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Online DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #681 on: June 11, 2018, 10:51:03 AM »
that is where this utility called "Tiger" comes to play; it formats your firewiredisks and even allows partitions. ;)

In OS 9 ?  Never heard of that utility

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #682 on: June 11, 2018, 12:04:14 PM »
Guys I'll have a new ISO soon, to make Drive Setup 1.9.2 to autostart instead of 2.1, and replace the alias in apple menu items with the 1.9.2 one, also it's modded so it will come up in the centre instead of corner and not get covered, thanks to IIO's method.

And also a new SIT archive (well IMG inside the SIT archive, that will still do everything for you automatically, but there was 1 extension I missed off copying over in the last one, so this new one will add that in too).

I'll either have these today or tomorrow, just got to test it all first.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #683 on: June 11, 2018, 01:31:54 PM »
see post below for v8.
Ignore attachment (old)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 01:57:40 PM by RossDarker »
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #684 on: June 11, 2018, 02:19:00 PM »
In OS 9 ?  Never heard of that utility

nah, unfortunatley you must install it parallel to OS9 :D
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #685 on: June 11, 2018, 02:33:09 PM »
Just had a thought that I should edit the System IMG you restore, so that has Drive Setup 1.9.2 in instead of the 2.1. I will do that tomorrow, so for now don't put the ISO above on the download thing just yet as I'll have yet another one tomorrow. And maybe I will change the updater so it also puts in 1.9.2 when you use the "update to v7" app. So yeah don't put anything up that I posted above yet as I'll have newer versions tomorrow.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #686 on: June 11, 2018, 02:37:45 PM »
And if anyone wants to try on a mac that isn't a ti or a mini, (this won't work on mac mini as the model is changed in the rom again), change your model id of your machine, in open firmware, to what the ti is (PowerBook3,5), and see if you can use Drive Setup 2.1 on FW drives. If you still can't then maybe the Ti has some unique hardware feature that will allow 2.1 to format FW drives.


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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #687 on: June 11, 2018, 11:20:21 PM »
if 2.1 doesnt have any new features, one should ban it from everywhere.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #688 on: June 11, 2018, 11:47:35 PM »
COMPLETELY in agreement with you there IIO!
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #689 on: June 12, 2018, 12:10:10 PM »
Just had a thought that I should edit the System IMG
you restore, so that it has Drive Setup 1.9.2 instead
of the 2.1. I will do that tomorrow.

Just reformatted the mSATA with Drive Setup 1.9.2
(booted and used from like-formatted FW drive)
and now, V.5 installer AND… 10.4 Tiger recognize
all partitions set up via 1.9.2. I await the IMG
mentioned above before re-installs of Tiger and 9.2.2.

Previous partitions set up via Tiger install disk were
not recognized by the V.5 installer.

V.5 is still the only version that allows (Option-boot
or C-boot) installs here. CDs of V.6 and V.7 do not.

I do have a pared-down, patched-up version of V.7
on the slow FW drive to boot from.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #690 on: June 12, 2018, 12:45:43 PM »
V.5 is still the only version that allows (Option-boot
or C-boot) installs here. CDs of V.6 and V.7 do not.

what could be the reason you cant boot from a v7 CD? or have we (or actually you two) discussed that before?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #691 on: June 12, 2018, 01:29:49 PM »
Really don't know. And we have discussed it before. I've just hacked and whacked around it.
Even now, with the Drive Setup 1.9.3 used to format, it won't (Option or C-boot) from V6 or V7 CDs.
Will see if latest version proves any different, later today perhaps?
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #692 on: June 12, 2018, 01:30:27 PM »
Have no clue why Fury can't boot the CD anything after v5 because no one else has that problem, you can use the updater to update to v8, if you still can't boot the CD, anyway got a new ISO and updater, v8 this time...

ISO (v8) : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RocAG5EizhVw_YjY4VlKi0OG4d7wQARj/view?usp=sharing

Updater app (combo update any config of OS 9 to run on Mac mini) : https://drive.google.com/file/d/17n20BaT_bLgBtsGJwS0D-6sNWJ-Kuluh/view?usp=sharing

and updater app is also attached for convenience.

v8 has improvements from v7 and below.
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #693 on: June 12, 2018, 01:42:46 PM »
Speak of da devil. Downloading V8 now (even sounds more powerful and possibly, healthier?)  ;)
I just accept the possibility that I may have to hack around a bit, always. Genetics? A curse?
Who knows? Descartes' evil genius fooling' with me (again).
Cogito ergo (raspberry sound). ::)
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #694 on: June 12, 2018, 02:49:35 PM »
Answer: D. None of the above.

Operator error. Doing it wrong in El Crapitan 10.11.6 ...since v.6.

V8 now installing after Option-booting the CD.

My apologies. I am quite verily ashamed. :(
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #695 on: June 12, 2018, 03:28:22 PM »
Well that's good to know you got it working.
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Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #696 on: June 13, 2018, 02:27:14 AM »

Pictures 1 to 7 MacBench 3 results

Picture 8 and 10 (no 9) MacBench 5

Please, someone with a fast Mini, tell me if  my 17" PB machine is Faster (CPU/FPU/Graphics) than yours 1.x machine due to the 7448 and the L3 cache. Take account that I run the tests at native 1440x900 resolution.

Mod:     PowerPC 7455 (G4)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:44:19 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #697 on: June 13, 2018, 05:14:20 AM »
17” PB = 1Ghz or 1.5 GHz?

Only ran one series of MacBench 3.0 tests with Processor and FPU checked,
on a 1.5GHz mini with the Ableconn and the 120GB Zheino… and didn’t run the
Graphics tests. (Sorry text only - no charts.) Read/Write disk tests, here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4435.msg31650.html#msg31650

Just installed v.8 last night and eventually will run MacBench 3.0 again.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #698 on: June 13, 2018, 10:38:50 AM »
7448 and the L3 cache
A 7448,,,  where?  ???
... and with L3 cache?  :o
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #699 on: June 15, 2018, 12:53:44 PM »
I do have a pretty decent build system that I am more than happy to share, to help with, or just to run on request. It is useful even just to make changes to the Open Firmware script a la iMic. So if anyone on the board wants to tinker but needs help getting started — or if they know someone who might — then get in touch!

Just wanted to state I'm interested, but only around September in case no one else steps up before then. The reason I can't act any earlier is because my hands are tied, as I'm currently immigrating countries (dual citizenship, woo), then will have to secure work and house first, on top of getting ready for getting married before the end of the year.

Also, guys, great job on those newer Mini ISO releases. :) This is looking fine!!

Thanks to this project and everyone's efforts (particularly ELN and the other core developers), my mini became my main OS 9 machine. Compact and perfect. Thank you all once more.

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #700 on: June 15, 2018, 05:44:36 PM »
7448 and the L3 cache
A 7448,,,  where?  ???
... and with L3 cache?  :o
   PowerPC 7455 (G4) I were wrong.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Hyram

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #701 on: June 15, 2018, 07:31:33 PM »
Ta-daa!



For Fury's edification, here's the adaptor in some detail:



Adaptor bought via:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/381616689178

- Input Voltage: 5 Volts
- Chipset: JM20330
- 1 x 52-pin Mini PCI-E SATA female connector
- 1 x 44-pin IDE 2.5inch male connector
- Compliant with SATA specification 3.0.
- Compliant with UDMA6 ATA/133 specification.
- Supports 50mm full-height mSATA SSD.
- Supports 3.3V Mini PCI-E SSD (mSATA Module).
- Mximum capacity: 2 TB
- Max sequential read: 100MB/s
- Max sequential write: 50MB/s


As mentioned in that epic macrumors thread from a few years back:

"The JM20330 chip does not work correctly with TRIM, and performance will suffer if the OS is using TRIM. Windows XP does not do TRIM, but Windows 7 and above do TRIM on all SSDs by default, so it must be disabled."

Remember, I bought ten of these two years ago, knowing full well that these aren't a patch on the Marvell-based red Able-Delo-ddonick jobbies, because they were headed for the insides of some old iBook G4's that are part of a performance-visuals rig. Speed wasn't even remotely a consideration, the goal was getting rid of moving parts where possible. Their job is to run "iVideo", a combination videclip database and playback app (think iTunes for movies) - five iBooks sourcing key-word-searchable short clips from a 2TB portable NAS and playing them into an Edirol video mixer for further processing. A 16GB mSATA went into each one, which was plenty to hold OS X and little else.

I still had two left in the spares-box, so when v7 appeared I found a Samsung MZMPC032HBCD 32GB mSATA drive and tucked it into a spare adaptor and tackled the Mini. With pleasing results, I ordered a Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS 128GB mSATA off eBay and it arrived just as v8 landed so I started a'fresh, and the chart above was with the new 'build'.


Hey Ross, you know that "mouse-death" problem? I struck it just about every time I booted the installer CD, sometimes I'd have to punch 'er in th' guts two or three times until I got a boot I could actually drive Drive Setup with ... until I tried something odd and I never encountered the pointer-freeze again. I used an Apple Pro Mouse. Yep, that's right, forget the Logitech & Microsoft & two-dorra horrible rodents, with an old Pro Mouse plugged in, I never encountered the freeze.

Weird, huh.
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #702 on: June 15, 2018, 07:59:13 PM »
Hey Ross, you know that "mouse-death" problem? I struck it just about every time I booted the installer CD, sometimes I'd have to punch 'er in th' guts two or three times until I got a boot I could actually drive Drive Setup with ... until I tried something odd and I never encountered the pointer-freeze again. I used an Apple Pro Mouse. Yep, that's right, forget the Logitech & Microsoft & two-dorra horrible rodents, with an old Pro Mouse plugged in, I never encountered the freeze.

I also noticed this when I switched from my Microsoft USB mouse to an Apple ADB one (connected to a Mac ADB keyboard) using iMate (an ADB-to-USB adapter). Not sure if that actually solved the issue, or if I'm still equally likely to stumble on it, but so far, it has yet to happen again.
(A downside of this adapter, though, is that the keyboard is only being recognized after boot, no matter what, thus preventing me from accessing OF on it etc..)

By the way, regarding the sound issue, I realized that there's another problem with it (in my case, anyway): the sound is partly messed up. At first, I thought the speakers I connected to it were faulty, but then I noticed two things:
1) They work perfectly under OS X;
2) The exact same issue persisted with all my other speakers and earphones/headphones, which are known to be working.

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #703 on: June 15, 2018, 11:21:23 PM »
Only apple mice I have now are:

Wireless Mighty Mouse from iMac G5
Wired Mighty Mouse from 2008 Mac Pro
And 2x Magic Mice version 1

Maybe Mac Pro Mighty mouse would work?

Used to have an Apple Pro mouse, with a iMac G3 Indigo summer 2000 dvd-rom slot load,
but that was sold with everything it came with and box a few years ago, which did include the mouse.

Just using a Dell badged mouse, in System Profiler it is Logitec. I still get mouse stuck every now and then but ok for me now. Take "shut down" app from the CD Extras folder and put in your Utilities folder, then assign it to an FN key. Then you can press that key when you next get stuck, to shut down safely.



About the sound, how messed up is it for you. Distorted? Maybe not right word to use, but I only notice just the slightest of this, barely noticable, when I have the volume really quite high, it can help if possible to use an apps in game sound controls, but I don't notice it really. It was when ELN set the ROM so the Mac mini had Quicksilver identity, that I noticed a lot of distortion or whatever, but we are back on G4 Cube identity which seems much better for sound.
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #704 on: June 16, 2018, 12:50:40 AM »
After rebooting my mini many times today, I finally got the mouse issue for the first time with the setup I described in my previous post. =| It was bound to happen, afterall.
On that note, I should point out that I noticed the exact moment the freezing occurs is sometime after the Start Up screen pops up, whilst (or slightly before?) extensions get loaded.

The sound issue I have on my end is pretty bad. Even if volume is decent, the "distortion" may be best described as "sound tearing". It seems to happen for specific sound outputs, rather than any sound output. The affected outputs are always the same. That is to say, they are not "randomized".
I'd say the "tearing" is bad enough that no music can be really appreciated: It gets irritating/annoying pretty fast.
... But on second thought, I'm also being a bit stupid: I'm still using the v1 install of the ISO (still "detected" as a G4 Cube) since I was quite content with it, but to make sure we always stay on the same page as far as troubleshooting goes, I'll make sure to update to v8 ASAP. I'll reinstall everything from scratch using the CD (after backing up my programs etc.).

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #705 on: June 16, 2018, 01:09:25 AM »
You can use "Update to v8.sit", to update from v1 if you want to not loose any data. That will give you all the new stuff replacing any old stuff, it's attached to a post above. And yeah v1 does use a different ROM to the one in V5 and after that
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Offline Ninester

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #706 on: June 16, 2018, 06:36:28 AM »
After rebooting my mini many times today, I finally got the mouse issue for the first time with the setup I described in my previous post. =| It was bound to happen, afterall.
On that note, I should point out that I noticed the exact moment the freezing occurs is sometime after the Start Up screen pops up, whilst (or slightly before?) extensions get loaded.

The sound issue I have on my end is pretty bad. Even if volume is decent, the "distortion" may be best described as "sound tearing". It seems to happen for specific sound outputs, rather than any sound output. The affected outputs are always the same. That is to say, they are not "randomized".
I'd say the "tearing" is bad enough that no music can be really appreciated: It gets irritating/annoying pretty fast.
... But on second thought, I'm also being a bit stupid: I'm still using the v1 install of the ISO (still "detected" as a G4 Cube) since I was quite content with it, but to make sure we always stay on the same page as far as troubleshooting goes, I'll make sure to update to v8 ASAP. I'll reinstall everything from scratch using the CD (after backing up my programs etc.).

With version 7, I had zero mouse or keyboard problems over many boots and clean install. This with M$ mouse and Dell keyboard.

Now I have installed the version 8 upgrade, Apple USB keyboard with same M$ mouse. Mouse locks up at end of every 5 or 6th boot.  On shutdown I see that mouse still has power, so I unpluged from Apple keyboard straight into powered hub, mouse happy now.  Will continue to swap things around.

Analog out sound broken up as in old comments.  Switched to cheap USB DAC, sound now excellent through powered desktop speakers.

BTW, RossDarker, having fun with the mini, thanks for your effort!

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #707 on: June 16, 2018, 06:38:33 AM »
It must be coincidence, v8 is similar to v7, no rom or extension changes.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #708 on: June 16, 2018, 07:05:33 AM »
ninester did you use the full install and therefore lost your prefs..?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Ninester

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #709 on: June 16, 2018, 08:13:02 AM »
It must be coincidence, v8 is similar to v7, no rom or extension changes.

I opened trash can to compare what the updater replaced with old color labeled system items thrown away. Was a bit mystified on same for same items.  Are there any change logs published?

Thx!

Offline Ninester

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #710 on: June 16, 2018, 08:19:16 AM »
ninester did you use the full install and therefore lost your prefs..?

No sir, just the updater. As RossDarker noted, must be coincidence.  My QS does the random mouse freeze as well in 9.2.2.  Overall, really happy with 9.2.2 over my OS 7.6 days, last century.

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #711 on: June 16, 2018, 09:03:18 AM »
Reason you might have some same items, it's just for incase you have older versions. E.g you have installed 9.2.1, with older ATI Drivers on that volume, the updater will just replace the items if they already exist, and if it needs to, so in this case it would update the old ATI drivers to the new ones that run on the Mac mini. As you know DarthnVader's got his custom ATI drives for the Mac mini, which the update will put in place of the old ones.
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Mac mini QuickBench - Drive Setup
« Reply #712 on: June 17, 2018, 09:03:45 AM »
if 2.1 doesnt have any new features, one should ban it from everywhere.
Just might have to retract my complete agreement with IIO concerning the use of Mac OS CPU Software 5.9 / v.2.1
over Drive Setup 1.9.2 …due to current QuickBench results from a 1.5GHz Mac mini - 1GB RAM with the
Zheino/Ableconn combo, re-initialized for each test and running clean installs of v.5 and v.8.

However, cold-boot startup time did increase to 50 seconds [v.8 with DS v.2.1]
…over previous 34 seconds (optimized OS) & with Drive Setup 1.9.2
But, I do still use 1.9.2 to format external drive(s) with the mini.

Also, current updated costs per GB of OWC, Zheino, DogFish
and the KingSpec DOM for the Mac mini:

OWC                                      120GB = $1.06/GB
Zheino / Ableconn combo      120GB = $0.54/GB
DogFish combo                      120GB = $0.43/GB
KingSpec - 44 Pin           32GB DOM = $2.47/GB

Still, would be interesting to see QuickBench results from an OWC in a mini.

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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #713 on: June 17, 2018, 09:17:09 AM »
Are you saying 2.1 gives faster boot time than 1.9.2, or the other way round, reading that post slightly confused me. When you say v8 with 2.1, the one that opens when you start of the v8 CD is 1.9.2, not 2.1. Drive Setup 2.1 is still on the CD, but you must open it yourself if you wish to use it.
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Mo' Mini QuickBench
« Reply #714 on: June 17, 2018, 10:34:41 AM »
Other way around.

Read/Write QuickBench results are better with v.8 initialized with 2.1.
Boot times DO increase with 2.1.

But check those transfer size rates per second…
in comparison to the Zheino initialized with 1.9.2.

I can wait 16 seconds more for the mini to boot with a 2.1 initialized disk
…if it’s going to give me improved read/write performance while I work.

And also, the Mac mini QuickBench results for the Ableconn/Zheino combo
(in a Mac mini) approximate the QuickBench, OWC SSD results from DieHard’s
1GHz Powerbook. (But that’s a 1.5GHz mini’s processor up against a 1GHz PB.)
At nearly half the cost of the OWC, the Zheino is no slouch in the mini.

Still like to see PT5’s QuickBench results in his similar PB after using 2.1
…to see how the Ableconn/Zheino combo compares, head-to-head.

Intend to do additional MacBench 3.0 comparisons (not QuickBench) later on.

DH’s OWC PB QuickBench results attached.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:58:39 AM by Fury deBongo »
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Online DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #715 on: June 17, 2018, 11:46:04 AM »
From Fury,

Quote
Read/Write QuickBench results are better with v.8 initialized with 2.1.
Boot times DO increase with 2.1.

But check those transfer size rates per second…
in comparison to the Zheino initialized with 1.9.2.

I can wait 16 seconds more for the mini to boot with a 2.1 initialized disk
…if it’s going to give me improved read/write
performance while I work.

Great job Fury !!! If true for all units, this is something that was never discovered before.  We need M.A.R.L. Labs to verify that the boot times differ and the transfer rates.  The different versions of the drive setup copy different OS drivers to the HD, but I cannot imagine why there are such differences; again, we create more questions than answers...

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #716 on: June 17, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »
what should an app have to do with a longer boot time?

i am using my hacked v1.8 something driver setup (german) in my 9.2.2. (US) since 16 years and never had any issues with it. (formatted about 45 to 50 HDs with it)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #717 on: June 17, 2018, 01:04:41 PM »
DH: while you re on it, test it against a disk formatted with the disc utility shell script as well.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Mac Mini - Occam's razor?
« Reply #718 on: June 17, 2018, 01:49:24 PM »
And here are the MacBench 3.0 results…

They seem to confirm the difference between using 1.9.2 and 2.1.
Overall, individual reported numbers vary slightly over the
QuickBench results, but not by a great difference.

Both MacBench 3.0 Comparison’s “report order”
has been rearranged to match the QuickBench format of:
Sequential Read - Sequential Write - Random Read and Random Write sequence.
[SR-SW-RR & RW]

The V5 “Disk Mix” numbers appear odd in the sense that the 1.92 results
report a 519.77 score versus a 435.95 score for 2.1.
(A reduction instead of an increase, by comparison.)

My apologies for the small text… trying to keep my image file sizes down.
(Ahh hell, I’ll leave the V5 text “at size”.)
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #719 on: June 17, 2018, 02:23:36 PM »
Maybe it's the version of the "Mac OS 9 Drivers" that are put on the disk. Like 1.9.2 puts older drivers on, 2.1 puts newer. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but different versions of these OS 9 Drivers could have different speeds.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #720 on: June 17, 2018, 02:25:02 PM »
that´s interesting.

so you suggest that as consequence 2.1 should be used as default and the older one is only an alternative in case you have problems with certain oxford controllers?

this would affect the universal 922 iso as well i think. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3089.msg19892.html#msg19892

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #721 on: June 17, 2018, 02:51:05 PM »
If 2.1 yields me better working read/write performance in the mini (as it appears to do)
then I'll use 1.9.2 when I have to... to format any externals (that I might need to).

And sure, I question the validity of all benchmark apps... but QuickBench
and MacBench 3.0 seem to agree with each other in this particular instance.

As I now consider the possible differences for HDs in Quicksilvers & MDDs. :o

Yet... I'll wait for confirmation/denial from "other" testers.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #722 on: June 17, 2018, 02:54:49 PM »
Maybe I should change some of the v8 iso so it mentions this, make 2.1 the default again. And I can put both versions so they appear in the apple menu of the CD.

If this is possible... Can you format a drive with 1.9.2, then update the drivers from 2.1. But then 2.1 might not let you update the drivers if it is <not supported>. And also a chance that it has nothing to do with the disk drivers.
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #723 on: June 17, 2018, 03:18:09 PM »
Wouldn't get in a big hurry to change anything until someone else confirms the results.
I wiped and re-initialized the drive before re-installing the OS in each test. (Not fun.)
But it was an "either-or" test from the onset. If it works out and is confirmed, then you
might consider an "update".

And, the tests were performed with only the basic OS from the install disks installed.
No other software was installed on the Zheino during the tests.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #724 on: June 17, 2018, 07:36:37 PM »
Had a version of Tiger working on a Mac mini 1.25GHZ with SSD Drive.

Was keen to get Os9 working on it as well.

Used v7 to create 2 partitions one for OSX one for OS9.

Can install OS9, but OSX installers now just stall.

any thoughts?

John

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #725 on: June 17, 2018, 09:22:14 PM »
Not an OWC SSD by any chance?

If you’ve a Tiger install CD and the mini won’t boot (or Option-Boot)
from it to install (I had that problem after installing v.7). You might try
the Open Firmware boot option described below. (Typed exactly as shown.)

Then there’s also Firewire Target Disk mode too,
if you’ve another machine to attempt the install from.

But, you say it “stalls” as if you’re able to get into the install… just so far?

A little more info from you might be needed.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #726 on: June 18, 2018, 12:28:45 AM »
more info..

Aim: wanting a faster PPC machine to open old music files both on OS9 and OSX

Initially:
After installing the SSD inside the Mac mini, I transferred a working version (dual) boot of a system 10.4/OS 9 running on a G4 iMac.
using CarbonCloner with the drive under Target mode.

All worked fine, except it would not boot in OS 9,
Google researched and ended up here.

After partitioning the device into 2 drives (both with OS9 Drivers and one Extended, the other Extended Journaled (for OS X), I have tried installing via
- Target Boot and Carbon Cloner a disk image of previous install.
- Tiger CD install direct from CD.

Both process start but kinda stop part way through then cursor freezes and SWOD.

Hope that helps.

numbers times, now I cant get an OS X image on the OS X partitions

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #727 on: June 18, 2018, 02:01:34 AM »
two other things i would try first (before using target disk mode to clone a partition or booting from OF)

 - using an alternate optical drive via usb or firewire

 - boot into OS9 first, select the tiger install CD via "startup volume" control panel.

"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #728 on: June 18, 2018, 02:05:24 AM »
two other things i would try first (before using target disk mode to clone a partition or booting from OF)

 - using an alternate optical drive via usb or firewire

 - boot into OS9 first, select the tiger install CD via "startup volume" control panel.

tried both..
Went the OS9 route first and it really didn't like booting up via the CD for OS X
OS9 installed successfully.

So went far enough to create 2 partitions that had OS 9 Drivers and thought get OS X installed first and then return to an OS9 install..

this is where I am.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #729 on: June 18, 2018, 04:32:40 AM »
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

If you want a partition for OS 9, and one for OS X, it would be something like:


Code: [Select]
diskutil partitionDisk /dev/disk1 2 OS9Drivers HFS+ MacHD 4000M JHFS+ OSXHD R
This would create 2 partitions, one name MacHD formated HFS+ that is 4000 Megabytes, and one names OSXHD formated JHFS+ that would use the remainder of the disk.

Just adjust the size in megabytes you want for you OS 9 partition, and insure you are partitioning the correct disk( /dev/diskx ).

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #730 on: June 19, 2018, 05:23:54 AM »
thanks for all your help... appreciated it and let me know if this is not the place for this discussion.

Tried Terminal and getting "Does not appear to be a valid disk size"

Offline Ninester

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #731 on: June 19, 2018, 06:18:46 AM »
thanks for all your help... appreciated it and let me know if this is not the place for this discussion.

Tried Terminal and getting "Does not appear to be a valid disk size"

I boot from mini mod OS9 cd.  Initialise, create two partitions, install os9. Restart, check for good boot os9. Restart and insert Tiger disk, use "C" key to boot into Tiger installer, install Tiger in other partition.  This mainly to insure good Tiger boot CD images from Mac Garden. I have the four CD and single Tiger DVD boot image.  Worked many installs, no bootable FW for me.

If, all your CD's good, no SSD errors, then ?  Boot into Tiger then run disks utilities to verify SSD?

..send your mini to FdB, he will put it on the "rack"..;)

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #732 on: June 19, 2018, 06:38:39 AM »
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

if there are scenarios (other than user error) where the mini-CD can cause that a mini refuses to boot from a tiger CD we need to fix that on another level.

aand for now i assume a user error or something with USB - because why would a mac not boot from a volume only because some other volume on aanother drive isnt right?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #733 on: June 19, 2018, 09:16:41 AM »
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

if there are scenarios (other than user error) where the mini-CD can cause that a mini refuses to boot from a tiger CD we need to fix that on another level.

aand for now i assume a user error or something with USB - because why would a mac not boot from a volume only because some other volume on aanother drive isnt right?

Myself (occasionally being the involuntary practitioner of user error)…
have just discovered that using Drive Setup 2.1 on the “mini-mod” v.8 install disk, and then two-partitioning the drive before installing the “mini-mod” v.8 software… the mini then allows the C-boot install of Tiger 10.4 (from single DVD) AND even Tiger 10.4.6 (also from single DVD)… whereas before, I invoked the Open Firmware method to boot from the Tiger install DVDs (when I had used Drive Setup 1.9.2 previously, which would not allow the Tiger C-boot).

Yet another reason to use Drive Setup 2.1 when installing the “mini-mod” v. whichever number?

In other, related news…

Last night I went ahead and ran the comparison between the two Drive Setups on a 1.25 GHz mini with a (probable) 4200 RPM Seagate 80GB HD to check which Driver version was installed and it checked out… 3.25 vs. 3.3 (as expected). Quickbench results weren’t as dramatic as with the 1.5GHz with Zheino, but there were improvements. Suppose that with a slower drive, one can’t expect that much drama.

Re-initialized a 1.25 GHz mini with Drive Setup 1.9.2 from the v.8 install CD and it installs HD Driver 3.2.5 …whereas Drive Setup 2.1 installs HD Driver version 3.3. QuickBench comparisons for both (below) show a slight increase in performance with the 80GB Seagate standard HD. Not nearly as dramatic as the Zheino results in the 1.5 GHz mini… but still, a little boost in some areas as the XFer sizes increase.

Did not check cold boot times but I did discover that my earlier report of 50 seconds on the 1.5GHz mini was incorrect. Had timed that with the 1.92 Drive Setup on the 1.5GHz with the 3.25 HD driver in place. After that discovery, re-initialized the 1.5GHz with Drive Setup 2.1 and clocked that cold-boot @ 38 secs. A mere 4 seconds more (without any pruning) than my previous 34 second, best…

So, there is no 16 second increase in boot time when using 2.1.
(The increased cold boot time came with 1.9.2.)

My apologies. Erreur de l'utilisateur!

FireWire and frozen mouse noise, later.

 
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #734 on: June 19, 2018, 10:50:15 AM »
And then...

After C-booting the Tiger 10.4.6 install disk and before installing the OS… using Tiger’s disk utility I then erase the second partition set up previously with the mini-mod and format that second partition as “Extended Journaled” before installing OS X. Afterwards, if I want to boot OS 9, I must Option-boot to choose it. If I want to re-boot into OS X, I can select that from the Startup Control Panel… but OS 9 is not available in the OSX  System Prefs under Startup Disk.

All the above on the 1.25 GHz mini, but I’m almost certain it’ll be the same in the 1.5 GHz mini. (Also, no time-shift weirdness as of yet, between OS 9 and X.)

FireWire External

Formatting the VST 10GB FW drive with 2.1 yields an “Unrecognized” or “not mounted” comment via mini-mod OS 9.2.2 v.8 (or something like that). So I format the FW drive with Disk Setup 1.9.2 which seems to work best across various Mac OS'es and machines. However, after mounting the FW drive and even after ejecting it, QuickBench then reports the reduced 1.9.2 performance results. Yes, even after it’s been put away / disconnected. But, after a reboot, the improved performance QuickBench results return. Go figure.

Frozen Mouse

Encountered many freezes at startup on the 1.25 Ghz mini last night. I’m using an Apple 20” Cinema Display (metal) and plugging my keyboard and mouse into that as a sort of USB hub. Probably demanding a lot from the mini. But, I simply moved the USB plug from that Cinema Display to the USB port (USB 1) closest to the mini’s video-out and haven’t had a freeze since. Know that sounds odd, but it’s true. Perhaps someone with more internal knowledge of the mini might explain this? Good Ju-Ju?

For now, I rationalize it as the USB port closest to the FireWire port on the back of the mini has had more use by previous owner(s), who… like me, used that port thinking to allow easier in/out access for thumb drives and/or other USB devices? Before adopting the USB 1 approach, I always tried to keep the mouse/cursor moving until complete boot (which seemed to help for the most part). But, unattended boots too often resulted in el-freeze-o de-Lux.

(I don’t plug the Cinema Display’s Firewire connector into the mini’s… I reserve that for direct connect to external FW drives.)

Question for IIO: If you’re using Drive Setup version 1.8 "something-or-other", what Driver version number is showing up in your Apple System Profiler under OS 9 on your G4 Mac mini?

 
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #735 on: June 19, 2018, 11:19:30 AM »
sorry my current machines are all "built" with OX, i.e. all IDE volumes have versions 3.3 and all SATA volumes have 8.1.4 (the raids have "not available")
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #736 on: June 19, 2018, 11:30:38 AM »
wait i am wrong, most fw disks are older than the last rebuild. i think it doesnt show any info tho. will check again with the tiger utility later.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com