Author Topic: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 55194 times)

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #525 on: April 30, 2018, 04:14:39 PM »
So, my dear Gurus, if we can tell Open firmware that the mouse is a Genuine Apple mouse, I think we will have no more "Frozen Mouse"

i am afraid that it will also act like an apple mouse when you do that, but interesting find.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #526 on: April 30, 2018, 06:32:08 PM »
I meant for the Non-Apple mouse, to tell OF that the mouse was a Genuine Apple mouse, when it is in fact a generic

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #527 on: April 30, 2018, 06:38:41 PM »
i know what you mean, but that "mouse" is the INIT of usboverdrive, isnt it?
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #528 on: April 30, 2018, 06:47:02 PM »
Obviously, since I changed no other settings, it is "seeing" the 2 devices differently regardless or the default setting

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #529 on: May 01, 2018, 12:30:42 AM »
OF doesn't really care what mouse we use, seems to be Apple's USBhid driver.

We could give Open Firmware the Apple Vendor and Product ID's, but most of the time OS 9 drivers are wise to these sort of hacks. I've noted with PCI Device ID's that overriding them in OF, OS X will use the property you hack onto the Device Tree, while OS 9 drivers will poll the hardware.

Now if it is a property built into the device tree by the Boot ROM or an Option ROM, OS 9 is none the wiser about changes made to those sort of properties.

OS X is wise to PVR hacks, mach_kernel reads the PVR value from the CPU, not the device tree, however OS 9 will just take whatever value we give the CPU in the device tree.

I'll check and see what info we can hack about our mices ;D

Adding to the confusion OF builds properties for the via-pmu adb mouse, the pseudo-hid mouse, and the USB mouse.

I would assume that the classic Mac OS have some deep hooks for ADB.

Offline ELN

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #530 on: May 05, 2018, 04:46:06 AM »
OS X is wise to PVR hacks, mach_kernel reads the PVR value from the CPU, not the device tree, however OS 9 will just take whatever value we give the CPU in the device tree.

The NanoKernel and the CPU Plugin seem to be exceptions: they ignore the device tree (the NK would have trouble even accessing it), and use the PVR directly. This is actually quite annoying, because it makes a NanoKernel patch necessary to support full power management on a new CPU.

Unfortunately, issuing an "mtpvr" instruction has no effect (it actually crashes QEMU).

Offline ELN

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #531 on: May 05, 2018, 06:03:13 AM »
RossDarker,

I've just been refamiliarising myself with iMic's excellent ROMs for unsupported machines. He included the extension "Insomnia" to prevent those machines from sleeping that would crash. Instead of omitting the important Apple CPU Plugins file from the default install, could you please include Insomnia?

Great work on that CD, by the way. I used it recently to set up my own mini!

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #532 on: May 05, 2018, 06:16:21 AM »
Thanks. Yes I will put this in both CD and the install I guess. I cannot find this extension however. If you can link me to it I can start making v6 of the CD. Does this mean that if you try to sleep, even with Multiprocessing and Insomnia extension in, it will stop you from sleeping?
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #533 on: May 05, 2018, 06:20:50 AM »
Wait I just found the Insomnia extension with "1021v1_Generic_ROM.sit". I'll get making.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #534 on: May 05, 2018, 06:45:50 AM »
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.
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Offline ELN

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #535 on: May 05, 2018, 07:16:00 AM »
It's certainly possible to remove it, but I'm not very keen to dive into that. I'd rather keep the pressure on to get sleep working!

Offline ELN

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #536 on: May 05, 2018, 07:31:43 AM »
I have an idea about the mouse pointer problem. Here's what information seems to be available on the forum:
  • The issue can affect more late-G4 machines than just the mini.
  • Fiddling with the USB bus can work around the problem.
  • Any brand of mouse can be affected, and USB Overdrive is not a factor.
  • A System Enabler in the Mac OS ROM file does not help (sorry about that!).
  • The Application Switcher extension is not the cause (sorry about that too).

Here's what else I know:

  • The "Custer" 10.2.1 ROM, released with the FW400 MDDs, contains only two significant changes: the backlight parcel, and the USBShimKeyboard resource.
  • I once reproduced the problem on my FW800-cum-400 MDD using a hacked ROM with the following properties: no System Enabler, 9.6.1 binaries, and possibly the mini prim-info patch (although I doubt that last one).

Could it be that the new USBShimKeyboard contains a fix to this very problem? Let's give it a go! Attached is a ROM file containing the new resource.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #537 on: May 05, 2018, 09:09:17 AM »
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

Replacing Energy Saver control panel by Sleeper this issue is solved because Sleeper control pannel disable CPU sleep from the main menu also, while alow the HD and display to sleep and wake up as usually.
This is a good solution because 7447 and 7448 don't actually need CPU sleep as it have frecuency scalling tecnology, IIRC.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 09:26:58 AM by MacTron »
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #538 on: May 05, 2018, 10:43:43 AM »
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

the easiest way to remove a menu entry (without causing disorder of the items or bringing up errors when it is missing) is to rename the item to --- which will turn it into a dividerline, i.e. the item is still present but noone can accidentially click it (or its set command key combination)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #539 on: May 05, 2018, 12:30:32 PM »
Quote
he easiest way to remove a menu entry (without causing disorder of the items or bringing up errors when it is missing) is to rename the item to --- which will turn it into a dividerline, i.e. the item is still present but noone can accidentially click it (or its set command key combination)

Interesting, I will try that

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #540 on: May 05, 2018, 03:01:23 PM »
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

Replacing Energy Saver control panel by Sleeper this issue is solved because Sleeper control pannel disable CPU sleep from the main menu also, while alow the HD and display to sleep and wake up as usually.
This is a good solution because 7447 and 7448 don't actually need CPU sleep as it have frecuency scalling tecnology, IIRC.

Interesting, have you tried that on the Mini?

Does the display sleep and wake correctly with "Sleeper"?

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #541 on: May 05, 2018, 03:30:16 PM »
The display dims until it goes off and it does wake back up, also hard disk spin down seems to work. That's using "Sleep" from special menu, or a quick Power Button press. I am making V6 of the ISO with Sleeper Panel and Strip instead of the Energy Saver ones. Also Multiprocessing is in by default because of this Sleep stuff.

Right now just fixing a few aliases and stuff, lucky I found a CD-RW lying around which helps a lot because now I don't have to burn multiple discs if I find something's wrong, I can now just correct and reburn the same disc. It fits so well too, the CD is 650MB and the ISO is 647MB.

I will also make a separate Apple Script app, as well as the whole V6 ISO, that updates from a V5 install to the new V6 stuff so you don't have to reinstall the whole OS, and so you don't have to burn another CD.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #542 on: May 05, 2018, 03:56:06 PM »
yes please, thanks, just the updated files to be replaced would be most welcome.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #543 on: May 05, 2018, 04:16:03 PM »
*** Sound Advanced for the Mac mini - Real World Testing ***

OK, so the sound issues with the Mac Mini really put a damper on my initial testing, so I decided to Load up the DieHard Instant DAW
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2716.0.html

and Test Cubase and other Virtual instruments on the Mac mini.

So initially, I hit a brick wall Cubase would crash at the loading logo and give "error type 3" and freeze the mini 100%.  I could not force quit the application :(

So, thinking CuBase did NOT like the sound chip (as Mactron mentioned), I stuck in my faithful USB M-Audio Transit
This thing fuc*&ing rocks, as it will record/playback up to 24 Bit 96K audio, ebay price about $30 to $40



Now the mac mini had a Mac Keyboard in USB1, a mouse into the keyboard, and the M-audio transit in USB2
I used a 6 inch USB cable and it still looks compact.

=========================================================================

OK, so I did the install for the Transit and BAM !  Instant normal sound, route the sound control panel in/out and even if you do not record music, this is a great addition to the mini under OS 9 since it is very small and make the mini act "normal" with system sound and all apps




Ohh... and here are the added Control Panel and extensions:




=========================================================================

Now load the ASIO driver into CuBase and viola, no more crash, loads and runs like a champ !!!!




Now the shocker, I loaded a song that contained 32 bit floating point audio files (true tape) and this baby still played them back !  So the transit can actually be used to mixdown 32 Bit projects on the mini. Overall performance was great, Unit noise is Very low (super quiet) and it is a very nice DAW for OS 9


Offline ELN

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #544 on: May 05, 2018, 05:30:45 PM »
Very nice, DieHard! I'm glad to see this thing being put to use.

My testing has revealed that the new ROM, with its updated USBShimKeyboard, does *not* fix the mouse pointer problem. Sorry about that.

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #545 on: May 05, 2018, 06:38:11 PM »
that you can use 32 bit float within apps is no wonder, because asio handles all of this.

the only thing i dont understand is why soundmanager sometimes chrashes on the built-in - and sometimes not? i see no pattern there yet. eventually the current solution in the mini OS is picky with denormal data.


"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #546 on: May 05, 2018, 06:44:42 PM »
completely offtopic: the latest generation of intels mini computers serve up to 6 (!) 4k monitors.

and now back to the past, where everything was better. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #547 on: May 05, 2018, 07:26:41 PM »
Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #548 on: May 06, 2018, 07:37:28 AM »
Version 6 of the Mac mini CD and Install:
Changes are: Better performance. Multiprocessing folder in by default, Sleeper replaces Energy Saver, the CD has updated Apple Menu Items and added a Shut Down app in the CD Extras that you can assign to a FN key so if the mouse cursor gets stuck, you can shut down the Mac mini safely.

The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Update 5 to 6 (update from a current v5 install to the new v6 without CD):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jXAOuMVm85LDp_L2OaeWJTGiRdF-CVAN/view?usp=sharing
This SIT file is also attached to this post so you can directly download onto the Mac mini.

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

If you are updating from v5 to v6 using the updater, make sure the folder you unstuff is on the desktop on your Mac mini and you are currently booted off your v5 installation on your hard disk, not the CD or anything else. If you have not added the Multiprocessing folder, you will get an error running one of the updater apps, just completely ignore it, it does not matter. After the reboot, you will be running version 6, with all the new stuff.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 07:52:11 AM by RossDarker »
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Online mrhappy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #549 on: May 06, 2018, 12:31:43 PM »
Damn you people!! Now I have to buy a mini or 2 and one of those Transit interfaces!! ;D ;D

Thanks to all and nice work on the cd there RossDarker!!

Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #550 on: May 06, 2018, 01:09:00 PM »
Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32

i am not sure what the rule is (ASIO 2.0?), but the majority of ASIO supported devices on MacOS8+ can do float.

regarding the internal problem, ASIO Soundmanager is not talking to the device, there is Soundmanager in between. and its mister soundmanagers job to find out what the interface likes and what not. (to my knowledge soundmanager doesnt support floating point formats at all, but only 1-32 bit int.) and steinberg never allowed anyone to see the API in these days. :)

suspicious candidates are in the region of gestalt selector or channel initialisation of soundmanager, or in the device itself. but these thigns are a mystery to me.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #551 on: May 06, 2018, 06:16:54 PM »
*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***

One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is.  So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.  Why do this ?  Why waste hard drive space ?  Well you would think there was no purpose, but 2 reasons come to mind:

1) The internal effects (Reverb, delay, etc.) were 32-bit Plug-ins and there is definitely more "numbers" to play with... the actual knobs (Volume, send, return) have more headroom (more numbers to play with) and the degree of control by using very small increments of the parameters is noticeable, it is also very hard to "peak" an audio file since you have more numbers per fader mark and mixing it easier and smoother "in the box" even if you are going to dither down to 16-Bit files in the Final Mix.
 
2) Most premium DAWS have an Audio engine that is 32-Bit internally and it actually takes less CPU to work with 32-Bit source files, then internally manipulating (padding) on the fly. So contrary to what you may think, less CPU spikes with 32-Bit, but more disk I/O, On OS 9, CPU is a more limiting factor... especially today.

So that brings us to Today's world view.  It is a famous pain the the ass that programs like Logic Pro 9 and others cannot playback 32-Bit files without converting them prior to loading them into Logic.  You can See the wave forms, but no audio is produced... and no error either.... a real stumper.  Files that are "dead silent" as Apple gave up on that "32-Bit" floating point idea all together... yes go 48K, 88K, 96K or more with Sample rates, but recording audio at 24-Bits is the ceiling.  Hmmm, in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time, but a modern mac can produce amazing results with 24-Bit Files created from excellent converters (RME, apogee, etc.). So all projects I do these days on logic are done at 44K (24 Bit); if you are using samples and loops (almost ALL are 44K) the I suggest this is your norm also; the exception would be music for film/TV, in that case go to 48K (the video industry standard).  Re-Mixing old stuff is a problem in a modern system if the source files are 32-Bit.  Again, the "I can hear a huge difference" with 32-Bit files is was always a mute point.  Even back in the day, with Cubase, as I explained, 32-Bit was great for mixing if you were going to use the internal mixer without outboard gear... I never used it because I felt I could "hear a difference" in a file at 24 bit compared to 32 Bit...

Sorry, back to the mini and OS 9 and CuBase, so the "Sound Manager" ASIO driver is limited to record and playback 16-Bit Audio files; if you select "True Tape 32-Bit" in Cubase (or even 24-Bit) it will pad zeros and create files that you cannot playback due to the Hardware limitation of the Built-in audio chips. Many 20-Bit hardware audio interfaces will playback and record 24-Bit audio files with a little "Manufacturer" magic, so the fact that the transit played back 32-Bit audio files on the mini was very surprising to me.  I originally used the transit back in the day to have an "Optical" TOSLINK port on my G4 powerbook and do some mixing on the road (with 24-Bit) files since the internal G4 Powerbook sound could not do this as explained.  I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit (since I doubt it has great converters, but I do not know), but I never tried that.  Also, we have yet to try a FireWire interface on the mini, which may be the real answer for musicians. I gave my last Audiophile FW interface to a valued member here, so it's up to a musician, mini, and FW interface under OS 9 to post the results.

To summarize, the M-Audio" transit is an excellent addition to the mini for ALL users since it routes the "Sound manager" audio to the transit and it has a nice stereo 1/8" jack for your speakers.  So I am suggesting this for mini owners until the internal sound issues under OS 9 are sorted out :)

Online mrhappy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #552 on: May 06, 2018, 07:53:55 PM »

 I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit

Most of the stuff I deal with is tracked through a Burl Mothership (which sounds great!). PT 12x Still lets you save sessions as 5.1 so I bring them home for the OS9 rig to do what I gotta do! ;D

Have a Transit on the way... mini(s) soon to follow. ;D Have a few firewire interfaces that I can try out.

All this recent OS9 activity certainly shines a new light on the 'lowly' G4 mini... I can see incorporating a few of them into my setup!!!


Online mrhappy

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #553 on: May 06, 2018, 07:57:40 PM »
in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time

Yes, I think you're right about that!! ;D

Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #554 on: May 06, 2018, 10:03:06 PM »
The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

Just a heads up, the ISO-to-a-disc did not work. Had to install v5 first,
in order to then use the "ISO to disc" CD. (No v5 on mini beforehand.)
(Might be just me?)

Now the little monster has been running PShop and Illustrator all night.
 ;) Got a little 250GB LaCie mini FW HD with this one.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #555 on: May 06, 2018, 10:23:01 PM »
Fury deBongo what is not working with the v6 ISO? Does Mac mini not boot it, or does it boot but it's not restoring or does the restored system not work? I have it working burned it to a CD from High Sierra, and too from a PowerBook and it works fine. You could also try locking the ISO file before burning it.
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Offline Fury deBongo

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #556 on: May 06, 2018, 11:15:00 PM »
Mini would not boot or even "see" it via a variety of methods (option-boot, C-boot, etcetera). I just installed v5 and then it would boot the v6 CD and install.
I'll try locking the ISO file before burning on any subsequent attempts. I didn't try the v6 updater version on the other mini with v5 already present.
Figured I'd just use this "full version" v6 CD. This "newer" mini is working very well with the v6. Thanks Ross!
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #557 on: May 07, 2018, 03:46:39 AM »
Wait so after you have installed v5 you can boot from v6? Ok have you been able to boot from v6 at all. That would be strange if you can boot the CD after a v5 install, but not before. Or are you running the ASR app, not booted off the CD, but just running the app from an installed system, and restore to another partition? It would only be worth locking the ISO if you are burning it from 10.5 and below (because HFS standard-write support), if you were on Windows or any higher Mac OS, it should just work. Maybe try burning at a lower speed. Or you could try the toast file of v6:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DR7G3gowU7ebzwRdXj5s6B5TPC7825s7/view?usp=sharing
(before being converted to ISO), see if you can boot that.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:08:22 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #558 on: May 07, 2018, 05:15:46 AM »
*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is. So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.

who needs kansas when you can have a good offtopic discussion instead!

i am sorry tro go contrary but the true tape plug-in has nothing to do with the ability of the host to write and read 32 bit files. from a technical standpoint it does not make much sense that the app does not allow to write 24 bits when you activate the true tape recording mode. it is only a matter of convenience. (granted, this is a good reason)

the main feature of 32 bit streams is that you can write files which are over 0 db, so that you dont have to care about the gain. this is nice to have for quick mixdown - or for recording through the tape plug-in.

if you work in an app in 32 or 64 bits and send a stream to an IO, it is the job of the DAE/ASIO/CoreAudio driver to know what the IO can do (usually 24 bits) and convert that stream to 24 bits (or eventually 16) so that the converter can work with it.
to my knowwledge there is no delta sigma modulation device which can directly receive a floating point format.

oh and btw .. the conversion to 32 bit is more than padding zeros, it is a completely different format.

padding zeros is what protools did, or iOS 3 with their "24.8" or "double 24.8" formats.

digidesign explained us for decades that integer would sound better. but after PT 10 had been cracked and a third party sound engine was released in the scene (which was 64 bit float, beause it was made by humans and not chimpanzes*), digi switched to float, too a few weeks later and called it an "innovation". :D

...

since i use 32 bit float file formats am sometimes a bit annoyed that many of my favorite OS9 programs do not support it, so that you have to import/export/convert all the time.

and i think it is quite strange that steinberg added support for 64 bit float import and export with cubase 5 but then needed 8 years until they finally equipped their own mixers and effects in cubase with full 64 bit support, too. that just doesnt make sense.

then again, they also support DSD streams in cubase without supporting the corresponding PCM samplerate at the VST interface. :D

recently i argued against 32 bit integer converters on the coreaudio mailinglist - and got corrected by someone who actcually builds and sells those. he said "why not do that when it is possible?" and i could not prove that idea wrong.

*) note to self: it is "chimpanzee", not "chipmonk"
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 05:36:14 AM by IIO »
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #559 on: May 07, 2018, 08:19:32 AM »
For those getting lost in this "aside" off-topic, a simple explanation fro "Ask-audio"
Quote
The Theory
32 bit floating point audio files have a theoretical dynamic range of up to around 1680 dB. Compare that with the 144 dB available from 24 bit recordings and you will realise that its quite an improvement! In terms of resolution thats a lot more than the human brain could ever decipher. Add to that the fact that there is no audio interface currently available that has Analog-to-Digital and Digital-to-Analog converters that are anything but either 16 or 24 bit and you may begin to wonder - whats the point?

The Advantages
So having your 24 bit recordings in 32 bit floating point format will not change the quality of the initial recordings themselves, but creating audio files in this format before they are processed by plug-ins will help you avoid the following:
    Clipping during AudioSuite rendering
    Unnecessary noise introduced by AudioSuite dithering
    Rounding errors during signal processing

These issues then are mostly caused by the fact that with either 16 or 24 bit audio the data requires conversion at the point of processing

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #560 on: May 08, 2018, 04:06:37 AM »
i guess we just hijacked the thread.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #561 on: May 08, 2018, 07:13:33 AM »
i guess we just hijacked the thread.

Ok then one more silly post till we get back on track...

Hey DieHard, I just noticed your tooth brush in one of your pics... are you related to the Osmond family??  ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #562 on: May 08, 2018, 08:13:12 AM »
Quote
Hey DieHard, I just noticed your tooth brush in one of your pics
Yeah, we use all sorts of stuff on people's computers when they are not looking :)

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #563 on: May 08, 2018, 12:40:13 PM »
  He also has a couple of PS2-to-USB adapters there - Gasp!

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #564 on: May 09, 2018, 10:25:36 PM »
Great Work! I installed it on one of my Mini's and it worked like a charm.

Although i'm not able to make a network connection. It won't get a DHCP address, when I add an address manually it also won't work. Or an i just to Stopid :D I didn't worked much whit OS9. 

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #565 on: May 10, 2018, 04:38:51 AM »
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)

this limit only applies to the "first" or "Boot" drive partition right?
to have it be under 190GB
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #566 on: May 10, 2018, 07:56:57 AM »
@Roman78, Sometimes you can open the Setup assistant again, I think it's in Applications (Mac OS 9):Utilities:Assistants: then I think you don't run "Mac OS Setup Assistant", but go in another folder and run the setup assistant in there, you'll know it's the right one if you get the blue screen and welcome movie. Now go through the setup until you reach the internet part. Click "use existing internet service" (something like that), then select DSL modem. After, enter your email address into the first two boxes, and in the 3rd type something like "smtp.gmail.com", leaving all optional boxes blank, then click continue and after it should say "Your Going Online" click connect, and it should open IE5 and give a server invalid error. Now you should be able to browse best with Classilla, (which you copy from the CD Extras folder on the Mac mini OS 9 CD).
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #567 on: May 10, 2018, 10:54:49 AM »
@RossDarker, Thanks for the reply. But now it just worked after i restarted. I have the same strange thing on my hacky. When i Boot without cable it won't work. Do i boot whit cable it works. Now i have to connect my NAS.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #568 on: May 10, 2018, 11:04:03 AM »
Nice
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #569 on: May 10, 2018, 12:11:44 PM »
DHPC with fixed adress basically works like on OSX, it is just not called explicitely "DHCP with manual adress", it is called "manually" and you have to make sure that your IP is actually in the correct range.

in OS9, networking prefs is spread across several control panels, and for DHCP or LAN jobs you only need to configure the TCP/IP one.

evenntually you also have to turn off appletalk (with the "chooser" application in the apple menu (what a silly place to put apps!)), but on the mini install CD it is of course off by default.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #570 on: May 11, 2018, 11:25:35 PM »
Hi, I have installed v6 on my 1.42Mini. I made a partition table in OS9:

60 MB DH0
20 GB OS9
40 GB OSX
16 GB DH1

OS9 did install on the 20GB Partition. First start the mouse-pointer freezed. I hava a pro-keyboard and installed the usb-mouse in an USB plug on the mini. then it worked. The first restart I recognized that there is no audio from the internal speaker. I cannot change that yet. Is there something wrong or do I need a USB sounddevice?

After that I installed Pather. If I am not pressing the "choice" key. always panther will be loaded. That is no a big issue but I will have to wait long if I would like to start OS9.

DH0 and DH1 are prepared for MorphOS, but the installer of MorphOS seems to have problems with the partitiontable OS9 created on the HDD.

Doc 

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #571 on: May 12, 2018, 12:55:52 AM »
@drzeissler,  thanks for trying out the v6 CD. The mouse cursor can get stuck yes, and people in this thread are trying to fix it.

About the sound, the internal speaker does not work yet, but for me I didn't ever use the internal speaker (in my opinion it's just meant for the chime). The way I get sound is connect a HiFi to the headphone jack. It needs to have a volume control on the speaker you connect because you can not adjust the sound from the OS, and so only from the speaker. A USB sound device or even FireWire would probably work too.

You say that it will load panther if not using option key. Now you can set the startup disk using the OS 9 Startup Disk control panel, it's also listed in the Apple Menu in the Control Panels folder. This should let you choose either to load OS 9 or Panther by default (click the triangle on the disk to select startup system folder). You probably have to use option key to choose Morph OS (if you get it installed) though you can set it in Open Firmware I think to choose which default partition.

You could try and follow and mix together these guides, to get OS 9, OS X and Morph OS:
http://lowendmac.com/2010/create-a-triple-boot-mac-with-os-9-os-x-and-linux/
https://dreamolers.binaryriot.org/dualboot.pdf

They use disk utility in that second one, but it won't let you choose OS 9 drivers on the Mac mini in OS X, so you probably will have to use the terminal and "diskutil partitionDisk" with the correct options to get the drivers in.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #572 on: May 12, 2018, 02:30:21 AM »
Thx!
I wanted to use that MorphOS guide but it hangs during hdd-setup. I make some pictures of it.

Within panther it recognizes the OS9 system folder for "classic" but tells me that he will have to make changes. I did not do that.
Classic is not usefull anymore if I get native OS9 on the Mini.

Changing the "startup-disk" from os9 or osx is not working from both sides. I 'll have to checkout from which side it was not working and it's not that thin I want.

I want a startmenu like I have on my other Systems that is displayed everytime I startup the machine and that let's me choose which OS I want.

e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/94839221@N05/41310819881/in/dateposted-public/

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #573 on: May 12, 2018, 02:35:20 AM »
There is probably a way of getting the "multi-boot" command to happen, every time you startup. Like if you go to CMD+ALT+O+F, and type multi-boot, you will get to the option screen. You could put it in the NVRAM and have it display every time without holding the OPT key. Not quite sure how to do this though, but be careful when you nvedit.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #574 on: May 12, 2018, 04:18:36 AM »
As to the startup disk:

We do not yet have an NVRam driver for OS 9, so OS 9 can't set the startup disk, OS X will refuse to select OS 9 as a startup disk on an unsupported system. However you can set OS 9 as a startup disk from the terminal, something like:

Code: [Select]
sudo bless /path/to/OS 9/System Folder/ -setboot
Once you have OS 9 set in the NVram, then you'll just have to option boot to select OS X. If you have both OS 9 and OS X installed on the same partition, then you will only see the folder that is blessed when you option boot, and that can be problematic.

I recommend avoiding installing 9 and X on the same partition.

 

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #575 on: May 12, 2018, 04:23:28 AM »
Would:
Code: [Select]
nvedit
multi-boot

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore
setenv use-nvramrc? true
reset-all

Make it so you see the startup disk (OPTION key) screen every time you turn on/restart the computer?
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #576 on: May 12, 2018, 05:32:41 AM »
Here are some shots of my system.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94839221@N05/albums/72157666841174377

Panther is always bootet. If I want OS9 I'll have to hold the Option-Key and WAIT.
As you described above, neither OS9 can change the bootup-partition nor OSX.

MorphOS installer sees crap-partition-table and perhaps destroys it if I correct the wrong ending-sektors

Greetings
Doc

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #577 on: May 12, 2018, 08:16:55 AM »
If I want to change the partition table that was created with OS9
I think I have to boot the v6-CD again, but that leads to a black desktop after a while ... :(
Booting OS9 of the HDD is fine though.

Any idea why ?

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #578 on: May 12, 2018, 08:40:27 AM »
Do you see the desktop at all from the CD?
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #579 on: May 12, 2018, 08:48:40 AM »
Yes I see it about 10-20 seconds, then it gets all black and stays black.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #580 on: May 12, 2018, 08:51:06 AM »
That is strange, I will make a new CD, v7, a remake, I do need to change something in the Base System too, so it is a great time to do this.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 09:06:07 AM by RossDarker »
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #581 on: May 12, 2018, 12:41:14 PM »
It was an issue with the dual-in setup (PC/MAC). Using only the mac and everything is ok.

Do you think there will an "option" for the internal speaker or is it completely useless in OS9?
Using a powered sub-sat system leads to "plops" when using the menu and the sound seems completly oversteered.

What Sound device is optimal for that OS9-Mini ?

Thx!

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #582 on: May 12, 2018, 01:37:57 PM »
Right now the internal speaker is completely useless.

The speaker I connect the Mac mini too is called an AZATOM UFO, which I got a few years ago for my iPod touch.
It works well with the Mac mini in OS 9.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #583 on: May 12, 2018, 03:41:56 PM »
What Sound device is optimal for that OS9-Mini ?

anything firewire or usb with OS9 drivers will work.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #584 on: May 13, 2018, 06:26:35 AM »
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #585 on: May 13, 2018, 07:11:33 AM »
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM

Avoid the M-Audio Firewire models, the Audiophile in particular, we have no working OS 9 drivers for it. There is a thread about it:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3471.0

I've been working all day trying to get the one DieHard sent me to work under OS 9, however nothing I do has made it work, and I'm unsure what the trouble is, I'll update that thread if I ever figure the trouble.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #586 on: May 13, 2018, 08:10:03 AM »
This one took me a day because of the amount of problems I ran into, but I have finally perfected, Mac mini OS 9 CD v7.
Everyone should use this as it is far better than v6 & v5. The performance is much better, and the new Suitcase makes the system cleaner, and the CD install is easier to use.

Download ISO here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-bPJg1dqEPTbE5GNEuEP_V-KqgMl-dm6/view?usp=sharing
Burn, boot, install.

Completely remade the CD, though it is very similar to v6
Mac Torrent now in CD Extras folder, as well as USB Overdrive, Classilla, Bugdom (SW), Shut Down.
As in v6, Multiprocessing is in by default.
Sleeper Control Panel & Control Strip and Scripting Addition replace Energy Saver ones.
Apple Menu on the CD contains all the apps you need to make the install, and took out useless Apple Menu Items for installing.
System Suitcase no longer uses the patched boot resource ID 3.
Once again, you should all use this.
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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #587 on: May 13, 2018, 09:24:13 AM »
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM

Avoid the M-Audio Firewire models, the Audiophile in particular, we have no working OS 9 drivers for it. There is a thread about it:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3471.0

I've been working all day trying to get the one DieHard sent me to work under OS 9, however nothing I do has made it work, and I'm unsure what the trouble is, I'll update that thread if I ever figure the trouble.

So what should I go for if I want to use OS9/OSX 10.3.9 and ScummVM and a real MT32/CM32L.
Should be small and not too expansive.

Thx
Doc

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #588 on: May 13, 2018, 11:04:49 AM »
ScummVM and a real MT32/CM32L.

i have no idea what that is. however, it doesnt matter much what hardware or sofware you want to use, an audio interface is an audio interface.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #589 on: May 13, 2018, 09:59:08 PM »
You are right. Using my LaCie USB-Speakers do not solve the Audio-Problem because they are 100% loud and can not be regulated through the pro-keyboard-buttons, that's (really) bad :(

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #590 on: May 15, 2018, 08:22:20 AM »
LaCie also produced a firewire speaker-set, but I think it will be the same. 100% loud.

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #591 on: May 15, 2018, 11:09:06 AM »
if you want to use speakers with a mini, they should have a volume control. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #592 on: May 15, 2018, 01:21:42 PM »
if you want to use speakers with a mini, they should have a volume control. :)

currently yes, any chance of fixing that?

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #593 on: May 15, 2018, 07:01:32 PM »
yes, get some with volume control. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

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Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #594 on: May 15, 2018, 10:32:12 PM »
Im actually a bit lost with it. If anyone wants to have their own look at the Apple Audio Extension, Id be happy to help. Attached to a previous post is a version of the extension with all the PEF binaries moves to resources. This might make it a bit easier to pull apart.

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Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
« Reply #595 on: May 17, 2018, 05:51:37 PM »
I've got a G4 Mac Mini on the way and I'm pretty keen to get OS9 on to it. 

I'm curious about the Instant DAW CD too.  I assume that this wont work for the Mini since the OS is modified and the Instant DAW restores a different OS version.  Is that correct?

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Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
« Reply #596 on: May 17, 2018, 06:33:44 PM »
That is correct. The Instant DAW CD does not have the Mac OS ROM file needed to boot on the Mini.

If you particularly wanted the Instant DAW on the Mini, you could install the Mini CD on a temporary partition, insert the DAW CD (not booting off of it) to use Apple Software Restore to put Instant DAW on the main partition, then copy the Mac OS ROM file (and a few others) to the DAW System Folder from the Mini System Folder. Then, the DAW partition would be bootable.

Maybe someone will whip up a CD so you don't have to do System Folder brain surgery to get Instant DAW on a Mini.

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Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
« Reply #597 on: May 18, 2018, 07:09:16 AM »
I've got a G4 Mac Mini on the way and I'm pretty keen to get OS9 on to it. 

I'm curious about the Instant DAW CD too.  I assume that this wont work for the Mini since the OS is modified and the Instant DAW restores a different OS version.  Is that correct?

youd neeed 2 optical drives, then it should be doable without too much hassle.

boot from the mini CD and initialize the HD from there, then mirror the disk with the instant daw installer CD, then replace the modified components for the mini (or better replace the system folder) with the one from the mini CD.



« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:22:43 AM by IIO »
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
« Reply #598 on: May 18, 2018, 08:26:07 AM »
That is correct. The Instant DAW CD does not have the Mac OS ROM file needed to boot on the Mini.

If you particularly wanted the Instant DAW on the Mini, you could install the Mini CD on a temporary partition, insert the DAW CD (not booting off of it) to use Apple Software Restore to put Instant DAW on the main partition, then copy the Mac OS ROM file (and a few others) to the DAW System Folder from the Mini System Folder. Then, the DAW partition would be bootable.

Maybe someone will whip up a CD so you don't have to do System Folder brain surgery to get Instant DAW on a Mini.

Well the Instant DAW would require too many CDs; the way I installed it on the Mini (assumes you have 2 macs) was...
1) Boot the Mini in target mode
2) Connect to a working OS 9 unit that has:
     a) instant DAW files already downloaded on it
     b) The famous Ross mini CD image mounted on desktop
3) Run instant DAW and pick the mini's hard drive (connected via "target mode" as an external HD) as the destination drive
4) remove the newly created "multi-processing folder" under the extensions on the mini
5) copy from the Ross image to the mini hd:
     a) the ROM file
     b) any ATI extensions (delete the current ATI extensions on the mini)

Now you can boot to mini, but remove the ASIO drivers (BEFORE you attempt to launch Cubase) on the mini under the Cubase/ASIO and install firewire ASIO or USB ASIO for a working interface under OS 9, the stock system sound ASIO drivers will lock up Cubase and they are unusable

Lastly, if you just have the mini only: (no other OS 9 unit)
1) make 2 partitions
2) Install ROSS CD on Partition 2
3) Boot to partition 2 and follow the instructions above to create the instant DAW on the first partition

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
« Reply #599 on: May 19, 2018, 02:50:17 AM »
Diehard, if you use the v7 CD (at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RDrQY3bUePLRWoDQmqWNEc1Uf8ooh-Kd/view?usp=sharing [updated 19th may 2018] ) the multiprocessing folder does not need to be removed, just also make sure to copy Sleeper control strip, Sleeper control panel, and sleeper scripting addition over as well as the ROM and ATI extensions, if you are copying them to the instant DAW.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 01:12:08 PM by RossDarker »
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