Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)

[darthnVader]

Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

Replacing Energy Saver control panel by Sleeper this issue is solved because Sleeper control pannel disable CPU sleep from the main menu also, while alow the HD and display to sleep and wake up as usually.
This is a good solution because 7447 and 7448 don't actually need CPU sleep as it have frecuency scalling tecnology, IIRC.

Interesting, have you tried that on the Mini?

Does the display sleep and wake correctly with "Sleeper"?

[RossDarker]

The display dims until it goes off and it does wake back up, also hard disk spin down seems to work. That's using "Sleep" from special menu, or a quick Power Button press. I am making V6 of the ISO with Sleeper Panel and Strip instead of the Energy Saver ones. Also Multiprocessing is in by default because of this Sleep stuff.

Right now just fixing a few aliases and stuff, lucky I found a CD-RW lying around which helps a lot because now I don't have to burn multiple discs if I find something's wrong, I can now just correct and reburn the same disc. It fits so well too, the CD is 650MB and the ISO is 647MB.

I will also make a separate Apple Script app, as well as the whole V6 ISO, that updates from a V5 install to the new V6 stuff so you don't have to reinstall the whole OS, and so you don't have to burn another CD.

[IIO]

yes please, thanks, just the updated files to be replaced would be most welcome.

[DieHard]

*** Sound Advanced for the Mac mini - Real World Testing ***

OK, so the sound issues with the Mac Mini really put a damper on my initial testing, so I decided to Load up the DieHard Instant DAW
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2716.0.html

and Test Cubase and other Virtual instruments on the Mac mini.

So initially, I hit a brick wall Cubase would crash at the loading logo and give "error type 3" and freeze the mini 100%.  I could not force quit the application

So, thinking CuBase did NOT like the sound chip (as Mactron mentioned), I stuck in my faithful USB M-Audio Transit
This thing fuc*&ing rocks, as it will record/playback up to 24 Bit 96K audio, ebay price about $30 to $40



Now the mac mini had a Mac Keyboard in USB1, a mouse into the keyboard, and the M-audio transit in USB2
I used a 6 inch USB cable and it still looks compact.

=========================================================================

OK, so I did the install for the Transit and BAM !  Instant normal sound, route the sound control panel in/out and even if you do not record music, this is a great addition to the mini under OS 9 since it is very small and make the mini act "normal" with system sound and all apps




Ohh... and here are the added Control Panel and extensions:




=========================================================================

Now load the ASIO driver into CuBase and viola, no more crash, loads and runs like a champ !!!!




Now the shocker, I loaded a song that contained 32 bit floating point audio files (true tape) and this baby still played them back !  So the transit can actually be used to mixdown 32 Bit projects on the mini. Overall performance was great, Unit noise is Very low (super quiet) and it is a very nice DAW for OS 9

[ELN]

Very nice, DieHard! I'm glad to see this thing being put to use.

My testing has revealed that the new ROM, with its updated USBShimKeyboard, does *not* fix the mouse pointer problem. Sorry about that.

[IIO]

that you can use 32 bit float within apps is no wonder, because asio handles all of this.

the only thing i dont understand is why soundmanager sometimes chrashes on the built-in - and sometimes not? i see no pattern there yet. eventually the current solution in the mini OS is picky with denormal data.

[IIO]

completely offtopic: the latest generation of intels mini computers serve up to 6 (!) 4k monitors.

and now back to the past, where everything was better.

[DieHard]

Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32

[RossDarker]

Version 6 of the Mac mini CD and Install:
Changes are: Better performance. Multiprocessing folder in by default, Sleeper replaces Energy Saver, the CD has updated Apple Menu Items and added a Shut Down app in the CD Extras that you can assign to a FN key so if the mouse cursor gets stuck, you can shut down the Mac mini safely.

The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Update 5 to 6 (update from a current v5 install to the new v6 without CD):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jXAOuMVm85LDp_L2OaeWJTGiRdF-CVAN/view?usp=sharing
This SIT file is also attached to this post so you can directly download onto the Mac mini.

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

If you are updating from v5 to v6 using the updater, make sure the folder you unstuff is on the desktop on your Mac mini and you are currently booted off your v5 installation on your hard disk, not the CD or anything else. If you have not added the Multiprocessing folder, you will get an error running one of the updater apps, just completely ignore it, it does not matter. After the reboot, you will be running version 6, with all the new stuff.

[mrhappy]

Damn you people!! Now I have to buy a mini or 2 and one of those Transit interfaces!!

Thanks to all and nice work on the cd there RossDarker!!

[IIO]

Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32

i am not sure what the rule is (ASIO 2.0?), but the majority of ASIO supported devices on MacOS8+ can do float.

regarding the internal problem, ASIO Soundmanager is not talking to the device, there is Soundmanager in between. and it´s mister soundmanagers job to find out what the interface likes and what not. (to my knowledge soundmanager doesnt support floating point formats at all, but only 1-32 bit int.) and steinberg never allowed anyone to see the API in these days.

suspicious candidates are in the region of gestalt selector or channel initialisation of soundmanager, or in the device itself. but these thigns are a mystery to me.

[DieHard]

*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***

One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is.  So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.  Why do this ?  Why waste hard drive space ?  Well you would think there was no purpose, but 2 reasons come to mind:

1) The internal effects (Reverb, delay, etc.) were 32-bit Plug-ins and there is definitely more "numbers" to play with... the actual knobs (Volume, send, return) have more headroom (more numbers to play with) and the degree of control by using very small increments of the parameters is noticeable, it is also very hard to "peak" an audio file since you have more numbers per fader mark and mixing it easier and smoother "in the box" even if you are going to dither down to 16-Bit files in the Final Mix.
 
2) Most premium DAWS have an Audio engine that is 32-Bit internally and it actually takes less CPU to work with 32-Bit source files, then internally manipulating (padding) on the fly. So contrary to what you may think, less CPU spikes with 32-Bit, but more disk I/O, On OS 9, CPU is a more limiting factor... especially today.

So that brings us to Today's world view.  It is a famous pain the the ass that programs like Logic Pro 9 and others cannot playback 32-Bit files without converting them prior to loading them into Logic.  You can See the wave forms, but no audio is produced... and no error either.... a real stumper.  Files that are "dead silent" as Apple gave up on that "32-Bit" floating point idea all together... yes go 48K, 88K, 96K or more with Sample rates, but recording audio at 24-Bits is the ceiling.  Hmmm, in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time, but a modern mac can produce amazing results with 24-Bit Files created from excellent converters (RME, apogee, etc.). So all projects I do these days on logic are done at 44K (24 Bit); if you are using samples and loops (almost ALL are 44K) the I suggest this is your norm also; the exception would be music for film/TV, in that case go to 48K (the video industry standard).  Re-Mixing old stuff is a problem in a modern system if the source files are 32-Bit.  Again, the "I can hear a huge difference" with 32-Bit files is was always a mute point.  Even back in the day, with Cubase, as I explained, 32-Bit was great for mixing if you were going to use the internal mixer without outboard gear... I never used it because I felt I could "hear a difference" in a file at 24 bit compared to 32 Bit...

Sorry, back to the mini and OS 9 and CuBase, so the "Sound Manager" ASIO driver is limited to record and playback 16-Bit Audio files; if you select "True Tape 32-Bit" in Cubase (or even 24-Bit) it will pad zeros and create files that you cannot playback due to the Hardware limitation of the Built-in audio chips. Many 20-Bit hardware audio interfaces will playback and record 24-Bit audio files with a little "Manufacturer" magic, so the fact that the transit played back 32-Bit audio files on the mini was very surprising to me.  I originally used the transit back in the day to have an "Optical" TOSLINK port on my G4 powerbook and do some mixing on the road (with 24-Bit) files since the internal G4 Powerbook sound could not do this as explained.  I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit (since I doubt it has great converters, but I do not know), but I never tried that.  Also, we have yet to try a FireWire interface on the mini, which may be the real answer for musicians. I gave my last Audiophile FW interface to a valued member here, so it's up to a musician, mini, and FW interface under OS 9 to post the results.

To summarize, the M-Audio" transit is an excellent addition to the mini for ALL users since it routes the "Sound manager" audio to the transit and it has a nice stereo 1/8" jack for your speakers.  So I am suggesting this for mini owners until the internal sound issues under OS 9 are sorted out

[mrhappy]

 I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit

Most of the stuff I deal with is tracked through a Burl Mothership (which sounds great!). PT 12x Still lets you save sessions as 5.1 so I bring them home for the OS9 rig to do what I gotta do!

Have a Transit on the way... mini(s) soon to follow. Have a few firewire interfaces that I can try out.

All this recent OS9 activity certainly shines a new light on the 'lowly' G4 mini... I can see incorporating a few of them into my setup!!!

[mrhappy]

in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time

Yes, I think you're right about that!!

[FdB]

The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

Just a heads up, the ISO-to-a-disc did not work. Had to install v5 first,
in order to then use the "ISO to disc" CD. (No v5 on mini beforehand.)
(Might be just me?)

Now the little monster has been running PShop and Illustrator all night.
  Got a little 250GB LaCie mini FW HD with this one.

[RossDarker]

Fury deBongo what is not working with the v6 ISO? Does Mac mini not boot it, or does it boot but it's not restoring or does the restored system not work? I have it working burned it to a CD from High Sierra, and too from a PowerBook and it works fine. You could also try locking the ISO file before burning it.

[FdB]

Mini would not boot or even "see" it via a variety of methods (option-boot, C-boot, etcetera). I just installed v5 and then it would boot the v6 CD and install.
I'll try locking the ISO file before burning on any subsequent attempts. I didn't try the v6 updater version on the other mini with v5 already present.
Figured I'd just use this "full version" v6 CD. This "newer" mini is working very well with the v6. Thanks Ross!

[RossDarker]

Wait so after you have installed v5 you can boot from v6? Ok have you been able to boot from v6 at all. That would be strange if you can boot the CD after a v5 install, but not before. Or are you running the ASR app, not booted off the CD, but just running the app from an installed system, and restore to another partition? It would only be worth locking the ISO if you are burning it from 10.5 and below (because HFS standard-write support), if you were on Windows or any higher Mac OS, it should just work. Maybe try burning at a lower speed. Or you could try the toast file of v6:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DR7G3gowU7ebzwRdXj5s6B5TPC7825s7/view?usp=sharing
(before being converted to ISO), see if you can boot that.

[IIO]

*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is. So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.

who needs kansas when you can have a good offtopic discussion instead!

i am sorry tro go contrary but the true tape plug-in has nothing to do with the ability of the host to write and read 32 bit files. from a technical standpoint it does not make much sense that the app does not allow to write 24 bits when you activate the true tape recording mode. it is only a matter of convenience. (granted, this is a good reason)

the main feature of 32 bit streams is that you can write files which are over 0 db, so that you dont have to care about the gain. this is nice to have for quick mixdown - or for recording through the tape plug-in.

if you work in an app in 32 or 64 bits and send a stream to an IO, it is the job of the DAE/ASIO/CoreAudio driver to know what the IO can do (usually 24 bits) and convert that stream to 24 bits (or eventually 16) so that the converter can work with it.
to my knowwledge there is no delta sigma modulation device which can directly receive a floating point format.

oh and btw .. the conversion to 32 bit is more than padding zeros, it is a completely different format.

padding zeros is what protools did, or iOS 3 with their "24.8" or "double 24.8" formats.

digidesign explained us for decades that integer would sound better. but after PT 10 had been cracked and a third party sound engine was released in the scene (which was 64 bit float, beause it was made by humans and not chimpanzes*), digi switched to float, too a few weeks later and called it an "innovation".

...

since i use 32 bit float file formats am sometimes a bit annoyed that many of my favorite OS9 programs do not support it, so that you have to import/export/convert all the time.

and i think it is quite strange that steinberg added support for 64 bit float import and export with cubase 5 but then needed 8 years until they finally equipped their own mixers and effects in cubase with full 64 bit support, too. that just doesnt make sense.

then again, they also support DSD streams in cubase without supporting the corresponding PCM samplerate at the VST interface.

recently i argued against 32 bit integer converters on the coreaudio mailinglist - and got corrected by someone who actcually builds and sells those. he said "why not do that when it is possible?" and i could not prove that idea wrong.

*) note to self: it is "chimpanzee", not "chipmonk"

[DieHard]

For those getting lost in this "aside" off-topic, a simple explanation fro "Ask-audio"

The Theory
32 bit floating point audio files have a theoretical dynamic range of up to around 1680 dB. Compare that with the 144 dB available from 24 bit recordings and you will realise that it’s quite an improvement! In terms of resolution that’s a lot more than the human brain could ever decipher. Add to that the fact that there is no audio interface currently available that has Analog-to-Digital and Digital-to-Analog converters that are anything but either 16 or 24 bit and you may begin to wonder - what’s the point?

The Advantages
So having your 24 bit recordings in 32 bit floating point format will not change the quality of the initial recordings themselves, but creating audio files in this format before they are processed by plug-ins will help you avoid the following:
    Clipping during AudioSuite rendering
    Unnecessary noise introduced by AudioSuite dithering
    Rounding errors during signal processing

These issues then are mostly caused by the fact that with either 16 or 24 bit audio the data requires conversion at the point of processing