Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)

[MacTron]

Mactron, I remember a youtube guy saying your "Well Tempered" Mac OS logo you made for my ARS install had a typo, just though I would mention that for future reference, I think he meant a spelling error ?

The sentence is based on J.S Bach "Das wohltemperierte Klavier" work, which is translate into "The well-tempered clavier"  while in some places appears as  "The wel tempered clavier" may be that's the typo...

[MacTron]

cant the startup screen be added by placing a picture file in the system? like in OSX?

Yes, it can. Any PICT file named "Startup Screen" can be used.

[RossDarker]

Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.

[MacTron]

I would prefer that changes be made to the part of the OS that has actually been modified: the NewWorld ROM. Otherwise we're changing parts of the System file that were language-localised. How about a subtle, non-textual tweak to the Happy Mac icon? I have attached a BinHexed resource file containing the 'cicn' resource from the ROM.

Funky desktop patterns are, of course, super cool!

I'm Agree.
Furthermore, the changes should be as neutral as possible, and never should implie a overload of the system, nor minimum.

[MacOS Plus]

Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.

So true!

  The only things I really ever desired as improvements were clearly showing the OS sub-version number (ie, 9.2.2 rather than just 9.2), and a verbose boot display mode akin to how OS X does it.  The option to manually step through extension loading one-by-one while in verbose display mode would be a nice bonus.  I'm still hoping for some sort of 'pre-boot' text-based PRAM editor that uses plain english rather than the 'cryptic' OF commands, basically a 'friendly' OF UI and boot menu.  PCs almost always had BIOS post screen and menus, while Apple gives you virtually nothing lest poor timid Apple users run terrified from their computers at the slightest sight of 'details' or 'text'.  I find it maddening that we can't even see a basic early RAM count - instead we get an extra-helpful black screen.

[Daniel]

Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.

So true!

  The only things I really ever desired as improvements were clearly showing the OS sub-version number (ie, 9.2.2 rather than just 9.2), and a verbose boot display mode akin to how OS X does it.  The option to manually step through extension loading one-by-one while in verbose display mode would be a nice bonus.  I'm still hoping for some sort of 'pre-boot' text-based PRAM editor that uses plain english rather than the 'cryptic' OF commands, basically a 'friendly' OF UI and boot menu.  PCs almost always had BIOS post screen and menus, while Apple gives you virtually nothing lest poor timid Apple users run terrified from their computers at the slightest sight of 'details' or 'text'.  I find it maddening that we can't even see a basic early RAM count - instead we get an extra-helpful black screen.

I have some knowledge of OF and have successfully used the client interface api. I may eventually be able to do the things you want.

[Jubadub]

I would prefer that changes be made to the part of the OS that has actually been modified: the NewWorld ROM. Otherwise we're changing parts of the System file that were language-localised. How about a subtle, non-textual tweak to the Happy Mac icon? I have attached a BinHexed resource file containing the 'cicn' resource from the ROM.

Funky desktop patterns are, of course, super cool!

I agree to this sentiment.

If I also may add, I know some people will prefer everything cosmetic left untouched, to feel like the "true" OS 9 is truly available on their otherwise-unsupported machine. And it is a "true" OS 9 when nothing but the NewWorldROM is tampered with, since it's the minimum, one and only modification truly required!

Maybe y'all may want to offer more than 1 download option by the end, for the sake of making cosmetic changes a choice? Or keep it raw and provide directions for such modification... Or whatever else y'all find better, really.

[RossDarker]

Yeah right now I have just kept the mini CD between the Unsupported G4's CD and a Generic CD, as in I have left the startup screen as it is, and the finder, but it still uses some elements from as what MacTron called the "MacTron System Folder" (fast boot desktop background and stuff).

[Jubadub]

did any of you already try to add OSX again to a fresh OS9 mini?

Yes and it only ever gets to a Prohibitory Symbol. Doing a Verbose Boot of X hangs at a specific line. I think its the disk drivers because when I erase it with terminal, I can boot X but not 9!! (Even with OS9Drivers option). Booting 9 after an X install gives a flashing ? On a floppy, but X boots fine, but booting X after 9 install will only boot 9). Not quite sure why but that seems to be the case when I tried anyway. I dual boot Tiger and Z1-9.2.2 on my tiBook. For my Mac mini, I boot 9 from internal drive, and Tiger from a FW disk, and that works great.

Not sure if it counts, but I kept both OS 9 and OS X 10.4.11 Tiger Client on the same internal, physical HDD, but each in a different logical partition. When in OS 9 or when booting with Option (AKA Alt) pressed, I can pick either OS 9 or OS X without any problem whatsoever, but when in OS X, it won't allow me to pick OS 9. (In that case, I just reboot holding Option, so no biggie.)

Oh, also, that was an EXCELLENT post, MacTron! It's very helpful. It's one of the things I have been searching for when I joined.

[Jubadub]

I forgot to mention something unrelated in my earlier post: I never provided feedback on later experiences I had with the Mini!

So, in order of importance:
- As others also experienced, sound finally worked on the Mini once I got a sound device plugged that has a proper, analog volume controller. Unfortunately, sound is way too low for me to actually be able to enjoy music or sound in general, be it through gaming or by listening to music as a standalone, especially since the Mini's fans almost outdo the volume of the Mini sound;
- As a few others also noted, sometimes after booting or rebooting OS 9, the mouse won't move. It's not that it doesn't work, because clickling still works. But the cursor is frozen in place. Rebooting again normally solves the problem, but the behavior is indeed abnormal;
- I do get the impression the Mini's fans are louder than when using OS X on the Mini, even when nothing much is running. I believe ELN already elaborated on this if my memory serves me right, but I'm also stating my experience to further confirm to others what is the current situation of things. For me, at least so far, the fan isn't really that much of a problem: it is not obnoxiously louder.


I'm not sure if this is also relevant, but as I mentioned in another thread, I formatted my internal HDD with 2 HFS+ partitions, one with OS 9 only, and another with OS X Tiger 10.4.11 Client only. I can boot on either one just fine, too.

But there is one not-so-important problem I noticed: While I can run apps just fine in OS 9, I can't run those same OS 9 apps well (it freezes the picture a lot) on Classic when it is configured to use the OS 9 installation from the other partition (rather than its own internal one, which I'm not yet sure if it is missing, if it doesn't come with my Tiger install CDs or if it IS indeed missing simply because I overlooked something). I don't know if this happens simply because OS 9 is in another partition or because of the modified video drivers, ROM and/or absence of the Multiprocessing folder that are currently required to boot OS 9 on the Mini natively. Or because of some other reason.

I figured mentioning this can't hurt, even if it is not all that relevant.

[RossDarker]

Doesn't the Classic environment use "Mac OS X Fake Finder v1.0" and a system suitcase, that are both found in /System/Library/CoreServices/ There should be a System Suitcase, that I think classic uses, and two items called Finder. If you get info on both Finders in the CoreServices directory, 1 is just the OS X finder, but the other has a version string of "Mac OS X Fake Finder v1.0", and if you open that fake finder in textedit, it looks just like a Mac OS ROM. If I remember correctly that is.

When I got my mini off ebay, it came with all its box and polystyrene inside and manuals and CDs and there were 3 CDs: The two Restore disks, the first is OS X 10.3.7 and the second has Mac OS 9 and additional software on. The 3rd CD is titled Mac OS 9, with the words Mac mini underneath and this contains an install package that installs the latest 9.2.2 to run in Classic, I believe no Mac OS ROM is installed by this CD, unless this is the CD that makes "Mac OS X Fake Finder", which seemed to be a Mac OS ROM, but placed in the CoreServices of OS X system instead of the System Folder the classic CD installs. When you run classic environment after install, it does not say anything about updating it to work in classic.

If you want I can make a disk image of that 3rd CD so you can use Classic stuff in OS X, but better to just boot the modified os 9 for the mini.

[RossDarker]

Not sure if it counts, but I kept both OS 9 and OS X 10.4.11 Tiger Client on the same internal, physical HDD, but each in a different logical partition. When in OS 9 or when booting with Option (AKA Alt) pressed, I can pick either OS 9 or OS X without any problem whatsoever, but when in OS X, it won't allow me to pick OS 9. (In that case, I just reboot holding Option, so no biggie.)

I tried that too. What did you use to initialize the disk, Drive Setup on the Mac mini CD? When I tried Drive Setup, both partitions would show up with openfirmware "multi-boot" (option key at startup), 9 would boot but X would hang.

[Daniel]

The fake finder and fake suitcase are there to prevent an OS9 system from un-blessing the directory by mistake (and for booting X on Old World Macs). They have no bearing on Classic.

[RossDarker]

Before we could boot OS 9 on the minis, I used classic in tiger and there was never a Mac OS ROM file, it wasn't invisible either. Definitely wasn't one in the classic System Folder. It must have taken it from somewhere else, but I see what you mean about blessing, because Finder and System and the drag and drop thing.

[IIO]

like jub says, the built-in speaker is so low that it is almost impossible to use it for anything more than the warning beep. so this seems to be the least important.

but the headphone jack, which was also affected by the same illness, might be a solution which musicians can already enjoy. though it is not very loud either, some -15db according to my mackie bus...

i will upgrade 4 of my minis with audio interfaces (edirol, behringer) in the next days and see how practicable it is to use usb or firewire IOs - which raises the clutter on the desk, but provides better dynamic and lower latency for the use of the mini as musical instrument.

which brings me to the question that, if a mini is upgraded with OS9, if ASIO streams might also have problems (i.e. not only for the ASIO Soundmanager but also for device drivers)

[RossDarker]

You've just got to make the volume louder from the external speaker. Lile you can't change the volume from the OS, but I can get range from very quiet to very loud by using the volume control (physical + and - buttons) on the hifi I am using over aux. Not sure the internal speaker works at all does it?

[MacOS Plus]

  I'm getting plenty of level from the Mini's output passed through a mixer to powered monitors.  It appears to be driving at line level, so basic powered speakers that are expecting a headphone driving output level from the jack will not likely get much volume.  If it goes through something else with a proper preamp first then there should be no problem, or a typical hifi amp/speaker combo alternatively.  Even my relatively small Fostex powered monitors blast air in my face from the bass ports when I crank some House music!

[IIO]

it is nice to hear that you guys seem to connect speakers directly to your minis, but that was not exactly my plan.

[ELN]

A reminder: the latest mini ROM (grab a copy here) works with the Apple CPU Plugins file. If you disable the file, the mini will run hot and loud!

[ELN]

The OF properties for the i2s-a device (as opposed to the i2s-b device, which is the modem) seem to match my FW800-cum-FW400 pretty well. It doesn't look like an OF fix will work here.

Here's where I am on the Apple Audio Extension.

Never before have I needed to patch a PEF container that lives in a data fork with other containers. I found that the easiest way to do it was to move all the data fork binaries to 'ndrv' resources, which patchpef handles well. If anyone is interested, I have attached an extension with that change made ("AudExtR"). The new ndrvs have resource IDs in the range 13000-13021.

That being done, I have patchpef'd the I2SAudioPlugin to dump some rudimentary output from "__SndIOInitialize" to the NK log. It seems to get called twice during boot. More to come, of course.