Author Topic: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 168991 times)

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #300 on: March 09, 2018, 08:13:35 AM »
  Further to this, when I look at the same device section on the MDD FW400 (which happens to be "snapper" by name and is also on I2S at exact same location), there are a hell of a lot more property entries which define its capabilities and operating parameters (there's even mention of a USB subwoofer).  Presumably all this is necessary information for the device in the Mini too but is all missing from OF.  If we can determine which missing properties are needed on the Mini and what values they should hold, we may be able to write these into the ROM code so that it performs the necessary additions at startup.

 Just as an example to give you a sense of what I'm talking about, here are all the additional property lines from the MDD FW400:

#-detects 00000003
#-inputs 00000002
#-features 00000003
#-outputs 00000004
default-monitor 6e6f6e65 00
equalizer-id 33353353 30333033
harware-types 00000003
icon-id ffffbf4d
info-id ffffbf44
model 35350303
name-id ffffbf4d
object-model-version 00000001
sample-rates 00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format 00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio 00000100
sub-frame 00000000
sound-objects (One line for each instance of the number of detects/inputs/features/outputs defined in the above parameters, detailing all the necessary parameters/addresses for each entry.  Very long strings.)

  I imagine we would need similar entries in the Mini for most if not all of these property lines.  Even "inputs" includes a definition for a "no input" type.  We would need to change the counts in the first four properties to align with the number of these subcomponents present, which are then detailed in the multiple lines of the "sound-objects" property.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:39:53 PM by MacOS Plus »

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #301 on: March 09, 2018, 11:04:10 AM »
I believe it is supposed to be an enumerated property, akin to "screamer" that has been added to the compatible property on other machines to gain basic function.  There is a named driver in OS X specifically for the Toonie.  I thought I saw it in the detailed branch of the tree for the i2s device, but I'll have to go take another look at it again.

Update - So I got it confused with some monster listing I saw online somewhere.  Here's the device and its properties from OF on my machine:

dev /pci@F2000000/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound .properties
name: Sound
device-type: Soundchip
compatible: AOAKeylargo
vendor-id: 0000106b
layout-id: 0000003a
object-model-version: 00000002

  As "AOAKeylargo" compatible (Apple Onboard Audio - Keylargo), this would imply Apple didn't re-invent the wheel with this device variant.  The bridge to it is I2S format but the function should be handled the same way as Keylargo.  Why it then isn't fully working using the existing Keylargo code, I don't know.  Can someone with more knowledge of past Keylargo device handling please comment?  The missing link here could be something incredibly simple.

Here are the .properties from the "snapper" sound device in the iBook G3:

Code: [Select]
0 > dev pci1/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound  ok
0 > .properties
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              snapper
vendor-id               0000106b
#-detects               00000001
#-inputs                00000002
#-features              00000002
#-outputs               00000002
default-monitor         6e6f6e65 00
device-id               00000018
equalizer-id            33353353 30333033
hardware-types          00000003
has-anded-reset         00000001
icon-id                 ffffbf4d
info-id                 ffffbf44
model                   353S0303
name-id                 ffffbf4d
object-model-version    00000001
sample-rates            00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format       00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio  00000100
sub-frame               00000000
sound-objects           feature index 0 model Proj16PowerControl
                        feature index 1 model Equalizer
                        detect index 0 bit-mask 2 bit-match 0 device 2 registry-name extint-gpio12 model GPIOGenericDetect
                        input index 0 icon-id -16521 name-id -20532 port-connection 4 port-type 0x696D6963 zero-gain 0x00000000 model InternalMic
                        input index 1 model NoInput
                        output index 0 device-mask 2 device-match 2 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6864706E model OutputEQPort
                        output index 1 device-mask 2 device-match 0 icon-id -16563 name-id -20525 port-connection 2 port-type 0x6973706B model OutputEQPort
                       

 ok
0 >

Here is the PowerBook 12' G4:

Code: [Select]
0 > dev pci1/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound .properties
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              AOAbase
built-in               
layout-id               00000048
object-model-version    00000002
vendor-id               0000106b
platform-tas-codec-ref  /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c@18000/i2c-bus@0/codec@6a
 ok
0 >
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 11:19:08 AM by darthnVader »

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #302 on: March 09, 2018, 11:37:38 AM »
Here is the source for Apple Onboard Audio, tho I'm not sure any of it will do us any good. We don't have the source for the AppleK2Driver, and as far as I can find Apple never released a sound/audio DDK that I can find.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/AppleOnboardAudio/AppleOnboardAudio-258.3.1/

So we would pretty much have to disassemble the Apple Audio extension, or one of the 3rd party sound drivers.

It's perplexing that we don't have a DDK for audio devices, I'm sure it exists, as 3rd parties made sound manager compatible audio drivers, but they must have had to NDA.


Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #303 on: March 09, 2018, 02:10:45 PM »
It is an interesting coincidence that the Apple PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz (17" Aluminum Model M8793LL/A - PowerBook5,1 - A1013) has a similar sound issue where external speakers work, but no "Internal" sound, also that unit as I have documented:
Quote
2) Internal Speakers will only work if 1/8" adapter or external speaker jack is plugged into headphone jack and then BOTH speakers and Line out work simultaneously

so try this with the Mini, insert a 1/8" only half way and see what happens

Offline nanopico

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #304 on: March 09, 2018, 02:55:50 PM »
Here is the source for Apple Onboard Audio, tho I'm not sure any of it will do us any good. We don't have the source for the AppleK2Driver, and as far as I can find Apple never released a sound/audio DDK that I can find.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/AppleOnboardAudio/AppleOnboardAudio-258.3.1/

So we would pretty much have to disassemble the Apple Audio extension, or one of the 3rd party sound drivers.

It's perplexing that we don't have a DDK for audio devices, I'm sure it exists, as 3rd parties made sound manager compatible audio drivers, but they must have had to NDA.

There is (and I don't recall where) documentation on creating audio devices (sound manager) for OS 9.  So that with the PCI DDK and or USB driver stuff one could write a driver given the right information.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #305 on: March 09, 2018, 03:30:54 PM »
It is an interesting coincidence that the Apple PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz (17" Aluminum Model M8793LL/A - PowerBook5,1 - A1013) has a similar sound issue where external speakers work, but no "Internal" sound, also that unit as I have documented:
Quote
2) Internal Speakers will only work if 1/8" adapter or external speaker jack is plugged into headphone jack and then BOTH speakers and Line out work simultaneously

so try this with the Mini, insert a 1/8" only half way and see what happens
  My guess with the Powerbook is that the reading of the jack insertion detection switch is inverted from what it should be, much like with the inverted behavior of the backlight control slider.  It could be as simple a matter as the logic handling of a single data bit.  I've seen evidence in the device properties that this state may be detected using a GPIO line.  Getting small details like logic high vs logic low = data 1 is often a function of a specific device's driver (or plug-in) such that the common code doesn't have to handle these variances directly.  The property "has-anded-reset" in the example given by darthnVader for an iBook G3 sounds a lot like a logic compensation flag to me.

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #306 on: March 10, 2018, 05:26:41 AM »
I was going to post the output of my QuickSilver's sound device, but for some reason I have no input in a telnet session.

@MacOS Plus, I'd really like to see the full output of the MDD FW400.

You may already know how to telnet in, but I'll post the answer anyway for everyone:

https://www.fenestrated.net/mirrors/Apple%20Technotes%20(As%20of%202002)/tn/tn2004.html

Basically, you just need two computers connected directly with an ethernet cable, I don't think it needs to be a crossover cable, unless your using a really old computer, as most ethernet is auto sensing, and will switch on it's own.

I'm not sure if both computers need to be auto sensing, or just one, maybe someone can answer that?

Anyway, on the Mac you want to control over telnet, boot into Open Firmware( Command+Opt+O+F ) at boot, and type:

Code: [Select]
" enet:telnet,10.1.2.3" io
Then on the computer you want to control from, set your ethernet address to something like 10.1.2.4, and telnet in:

Code: [Select]
telnet 10.1.2.3
Then you should see the screen go black on the target Mac, and have control of Open Firmware from telnet. Allowing copy and paste.


Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #307 on: March 10, 2018, 06:00:10 PM »
  I was doing telnet logging in the past for nanopico when we were working on getting the Xserve to boot OS 9.  I can do it through my network from any machine to any other machine if I select an unused 192.168.0.xxx IP.  Here is the complete OF device tree from the MDD FW400:

Code: [Select]
ff87f638: /cpus
ff87f8e8:   /PowerPC,G4@0
ff87fd10:     /l2-cache
ff87ff48:       /l2-cache
ff880ba8:   /PowerPC,G4@1
ff880fd0:     /l2-cache
ff881208:       /l2-cache
ff881518: /chosen
ff881730: /memory@0
ff8819d0: /openprom
ff881b78:   /client-services
ff882e60: /rom@ff800000
ff883060:   /boot-rom@fff00000
ff883290:   /macos
ff883398: /options
ff8834a0: /aliases
ff8854a8: /packages
ff885588:   /deblocker
ff885f20:   /disk-label
ff8869e8:   /obp-tftp
ff8902c8:   /telnet
ff890bc8:   /mac-parts
ff892478:   /mac-files
ff895430:   /hfs-plus-files
ff89a4b0:   /fat-files
ff89c2a8:   /iso-9660-files
ff89d108:   /bootinfo-loader
ff89ed78:   /xcoff-loader
ff89f810:   /pe-loader
ff8a0260:   /elf-loader
ff8a1908:   /usb-hid-class
ff8a4498:   /usb-ms-class
ff8a70e8:   /usb-audio-class
ff914c60:   /sbp2-disk
ff917820:   /ata-disk
ff919d60:   /atapi-disk
ff91bef0:   /bootpath-search
ff922870:   /terminal-emulator
ff922980: /firewire-disk-mode
ff9383b0: /pseudo-hid
ff9384b0:   /keyboard
ff938ba8:   /mouse
ff939140:   /eject-key
ff939610: /pseudo-sound
ff939940: /multiboot
ff94d758: /diagnostics
ff94d838: /nvram@fff04000
ff94e488: /uni-n@f8000000
ff94e960:   /i2c@f8001000
ff94f478:     /fan@58
ff9502f8:     /i2c-hwclock@ca
ff950ae0:     /temp-monitor@92
ff9511c8:     /cereal
ff9518f8: /pci@f0000000
ff99ce10:   /uni-north-agp@b
ff99d120:   /ATY,ApacheParent@10
ff9c36c8:     /ATY,Apache_A@0
ff9c4570:     /ATY,Apache_B@1
ff952b58: /pci@f2000000
ff9555e8:   /mac-io@17
ff95c0c8:     /interrupt-controller@40000
ff95c318:     /gpio@50
ff95c548:       /extint-gpio1@9
ff95c838:       /programmer-switch@11
ff95cae0:       /gpio5@6f
ff95cd00:       /extint-gpio15@67
ff95cf88:       /gpio6@70
ff95d1a8:       /extint-gpio16@68
ff95d498:       /extint-gpio14@66
ff95d720:       /gpio12@76
ff95d938:       /gpio11@75
ff95db50:     /escc-legacy@12000
ff95ddc0:       /ch-a@12004
ff95dfc0:       /ch-b@12000
ff95e1c0:     /escc@13000
ff95e448:       /ch-a@13020
ff95ee70:       /ch-b@13000
ff95f808:     /i2s@10000
ff95fa38:       /i2s-a@10000
ff95fd68:         /sound
ff960600:     /timer@15000
ff9607f8:     /via-pmu@16000
ff963ec0:       /pmu-i2c
ff964ce0:         /i2c-hwclock@1d4
ff965590:         /i2c-hwclock@1c8
ff965e10:       /rtc
ff966508:       /power-mgt
ff9c76f0:         /usb-power-mgt
ff966818:     /i2c@18000
ff9672d0:       /cereal
ff967a00:       /deq
ff967b40:     /ata-4@1f000
ff96a880:       /disk
ff96b0c0:     /ata-3@20000
ff96de00:       /disk
ff97a5b0:   /usb@18
ff982238:   /usb@19
ff9c5610:     /hub@1
ff9c5818:       /mouse@2
ff9c5b38:       /device@3
ff9c5cb0:         /keyboard@0
ff9c6040:         /interface@1
ff953dd8: /pci@f4000000
ff98a000:   /ata-6@d
ff98d1e8:     /disk
ff98d820:   /firewire@e
ff997a28:   /ethernet@f
ff9c7bb8:     /ethernet-phy
ff955038: /vsp@f9000000
ff955328:   /veo@f9080000
ff955488:   /veo@f9180000

The complete properties listing for the sound device in that machine is as follows:

Code: [Select]
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              snapper
vendor-id               0000106b
#-detects               00000003
#-inputs                00000002
#-features              00000003
#-outputs               00000004
default-monitor         6e6f6e65 00
device-id               00000016
equalizer-id            33353353 30333033
hardware-types          00000003
icon-id                 ffffbf4d
info-id                 ffffbf44
model                   353S0303
name-id                 ffffbf4d
object-model-version    00000001
sample-rates            00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format       00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio  00000100
sub-frame               00000000
sound-objects           feature index 0 model Proj14PowerControl
                        feature index 1 model Equalizer
                        feature index 2 model USBSubwoofer
                        detect index 0 bit-mask 4096 bit-match 4096 device 4096 registry-name extint-gpio14 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        detect index 1 bit-mask 2 bit-match 2 device 2 registry-name extint-gpio15 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        detect index 2 bit-mask 4102 bit-match 4 device 4 registry-name extint-gpio16 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        input index 0 icon-id -16521 name-id -20630 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6C696E65 zero-gain 0x00000000 model LineInput
                        input index 1 model NoInput
                        output index 0 device-mask 2 device-match 2 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6864706E model OutputEQPort
                        output index 1 device-mask 4102 device-match 0 icon-id -16563 name-id -20525 port-connection 2 port-type 0x6973706B model OutputMonoEQPort
                        output index 2 device-mask 4102 device-match 4 icon-id -16563 name-id -20523 port-connection 3 port-type 0x6573706B model OutputDallasEQPort
                        output index 3 device-mask 4096 device-match 4096 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 4 port-type 0x6C696E65 model OutputEQPort

  BTW, on the topic of temperature monitoring on the Mini, look at the last section of the OF device tree on the Mini and you'll see there are two clearly defined sensors, one being the CPU on-die.  It appears the necessary device declarations and connections are present to allow reading the sensors, but for some reason this wasn't ever made accessible at the software level.  Some of the other neighboring entries are similarly intriguing.

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #308 on: March 15, 2018, 05:01:47 AM »
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!

It seems the temp on the Mini is exposed via the via-pmu on the i2c bus.

Not sure how the Apple CPU plugin handles i2c, or the via-pmu, but maybe we can get it to look for the THRM value here?

Also, the AppleKeyLagro , AppleVia, and Applei2c are open source, so if we need any info we should be able to glean it from there.

https://opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1058.html


« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 05:16:17 AM by darthnVader »

Offline Daniel

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #309 on: March 15, 2018, 12:10:52 PM »
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!

It seems the temp on the Mini is exposed via the via-pmu on the i2c bus.

Not sure how the Apple CPU plugin handles i2c, or the via-pmu, but maybe we can get it to look for the THRM value here?

Also, the AppleKeyLagro , AppleVia, and Applei2c are open source, so if we need any info we should be able to glean it from there.

https://opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1058.html
Is the exposed temperature the CPU temp or the air temp?

Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #310 on: March 15, 2018, 05:59:53 PM »
The THRM registers are PowerPC “special purpose registers” that you can access directly from supervisor mode code on the CPU. If the mini CPU temperature probe is on a different bus, then some hacking is called for. :D

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #311 on: March 15, 2018, 06:47:40 PM »
The THRM registers are PowerPC “special purpose registers” that you can access directly from supervisor mode code on the CPU. If the mini CPU temperature probe is on a different bus, then some hacking is called for. :D

Here's some OF device lines in regards to temperature and fan in the Mini:

dev /sep/fans/main-enclosure@0
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-pwm-fans/fan

dev /sep/temperatures/cpu-bottomside@0
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-i2c/temp-monitor@190/local@0

dev /sep/temperatures/cpu-on-die@1
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-i2c/temp-monitor@190/remote@1

  Interesting to note that they define the external temp sensor as "local" while the cpu on-die sensor is "remote".  Does the above imply that sensor data would be accessed centrally through the PMU itself?  That would make sense.

Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #312 on: March 17, 2018, 07:18:30 AM »
Hi guys,

I've been looking into the Power Manager. I want to get this sorted out before I move on to audio.

Mac OS 9 on a G4 does not directly control fans, or routinely monitor the CPU temperature. Fan control is delegated to a chip on the motherboard. The OS is only interested in the CPU temperature when the NanoKernel takes a "thermal event" interrupt on G4s that support this (later ones don't). The few calls to the GetCoreProcessorTemperature function are largely superfluous. In fact, the THRM registers that they depend on are absent on later G4s, causing the mini to crash when a CPU plugin is present.

The attached ROM contains the following NanoKernel hacks, specific to the 7447a:
  • Return an error for all calls to the CPU plugin's buggy core temperature getter
  • Enable CPU idling (previously the only G4s that could do this were the 7400/7410) -- this might be buggy?

Everyone should use this ROM. Now you can get rid of that hacked-up Apple CPU Plugins file that I posted earlier.

Also, there seems to be interested in easy customisation of the boot script. Get the command line dev tools and Python 3, and you're good to go:

https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #313 on: March 17, 2018, 08:19:09 AM »
  This ROM did allow the video to sleep but that's as far as it got.  The computer itself and the USB wouldn't sleep, nor could it then recover from this state.  This condition is often what happens on other machines when one PCI/AGP card can't sleep.  I'd be willing to place a small bet on the 9200 being mis-handled, but more inclined to believe the PMU control is still not quite right.  I was actually running with no CPU Plug-ins file at all in the System folder before trying this ROM, and only put the original back now for the test.

  One other observation not related to this ROM - I've been having occasional problems with no mouse pointer movement when the Finder loads.  Everything had been fine from the beginning and then suddenly it started happening recently.  Disabling the ATI Monitor extension fixed this initially, and often is a re-produceable fix, but a couple times it happened even without that.  I'm not sure what the nature of the issue is.  The mouse itself works because the button clicks the Apple menu where the pointer defaults to at startup.  For now it is almost always working with the extension disabled.  I have a QuickKeys sequence programmed to allow me to shut down the system from the keyboard so that at least I can gracefully turn it off whenever there is a mouse issue.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #314 on: March 17, 2018, 12:03:33 PM »
It's like we're racing to the finish line... there is a possibility that the "PPC Mac Mini Universal Install Image" is coming soon to a theater near you :)

Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #315 on: March 17, 2018, 06:04:19 PM »
Sorry MacOS Plus, I think I over-promised. This ROM does not help with system sleep. It only enables the CPU's internal "NAP" mode.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #316 on: March 17, 2018, 07:23:54 PM »
Sorry MacOS Plus, I think I over-promised. This ROM does not help with system sleep. It only enables the CPU's internal "NAP" mode.

  Maybe I just got a little over-excited. ;)  How would I be able to tell if it was actually 'NAPping'?

Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #317 on: March 17, 2018, 07:40:39 PM »
Good work ELN, the Mini is a nice little OS 9 machine with the way you've been able to code it.

MacOS Plus, I have the same issue with the mouse working for clicks but not moving, sometimes, tho a reboot fixes it.

I've done a little debugging of sleep issues under OS X, I think the app is called SleepyX, tho it's been a number of years and I'm not sure it can help us with enabling sleep in the Mini.

I'll look into it when I have time and see if I can find anything that maybe useful.


Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #318 on: March 17, 2018, 10:13:10 PM »
I'm thinking mouse pointer trouble is likely related to video driver interaction, since I've seen this sort of thing occur for similar reasons on very rare occasions even on non-Mac OS systems.  The GPU is supposed to handle the mouse pointer redraws function as a separate dedicated process and is actually partly responsible for allowing the pointer to move in response to user input, if I remember correctly.

  I really don't get why it's a random glitch, nor why it works properly during boot right up to the point where the Finder takes over and then the redraw stops.

  Also, I don't recall if this is normal, but if I boot to OS X and then back to OS 9, the system clock is wrong every time.  PRAM battery is good.

Offline FdB

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #319 on: March 17, 2018, 11:27:28 PM »
MOS+

Perhaps completely unrelated and possibly too simplistic, yet…
installed new drive and OS 9.2.2 on a Rev.A B&W G3 last night.
Mouse froze just after finder load. Extensions off = okay boot.
After a few attempts and finally a “command-option-esc” upon
freeze, there was some ATI extension that force quit and then
it went on to full boot. Don’t remember exact extension title,
but I did switch it off. (Too lazy to go downstairs right now.)

Also, after OS X install and shuffling back between the two, I’m
also having the old faulty time ritual… that years ago I remember
somehow solving. Alas, that complete memory also fails me now.

And, just keep it up you all. When time actually begins folding into
and on top of itself and that gaping rift opens up into the space-time
continuum void… the last thing you’ll hear is the Ghost of Jobs
chanting “Redrum, redrum, REDRUM!…”

Absolute heresy! Get thee behind me Satan!

Alright, I may soon begin the Mini Quest as well. ;)   
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #320 on: March 18, 2018, 11:05:02 AM »

The attached ROM contains the following NanoKernel hacks, specific to the 7447a:
  • Return an error for all calls to the CPU plugin's buggy core temperature getter
  • Enable CPU idling (previously the only G4s that could do this were the 7400/7410) -- this might be buggy?


I've tested this ROM it on the eMac (7447A@1.250) with the CPU plugins installed, and the system don't hung at startup as usually but the the system don't go to sleep and a dialog box appears saying that part of the system software is missing... so it seems that this ROM prevent the CPU plugins to load ... (at least on the eMac)
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Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #321 on: March 19, 2018, 12:29:31 PM »
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines. I’d be very happy to help you build your own NewWorld ROMs. Unless you want to play with the 3 and 4 MB layers, all the binaries in the repo are pre-built. You only need to edit one text file to enable some boot-script-based hacks, and I’ve commented that file pretty thoroughly.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #322 on: March 20, 2018, 02:26:36 PM »
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines.
OK I understand :)

but now the eMac goes to sleep well with your ROM for the Mac mini :)
but it doesn't wake up  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline darthnVader

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #323 on: March 20, 2018, 05:05:42 PM »
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines.
OK I understand :)

but now the eMac goes to sleep well with your ROM for the Mac mini :)
but it doesn't wake up  ;D ;D ;D

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #324 on: March 21, 2018, 02:21:20 PM »

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...
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Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #325 on: March 21, 2018, 07:47:13 PM »

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...

  It was worth hearing that, because the behavior with that ROM is the same on the Mini.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #326 on: March 22, 2018, 08:52:52 AM »
(2) Mac Minis on the way,

(1) 1.25 & (1) 1.33 w/power supplies, combined price for both with shipping $76...lol

So... is the latest ROM attached the one to use ?

This is gonna be fun, I might transfer a bunch of stuff, so I have a "quieter" OS 9 unit

Offline nanopico

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #327 on: March 22, 2018, 11:54:06 AM »

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...

Not too far off topic though.
I thought I saw someone say something about the G4 Cube or something (or maybe a powerbook) being closest to the mini architecture wise.  If you dig through Apple documentation on the mini and other machines, the closest one too it is an eMac.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #328 on: March 22, 2018, 01:31:57 PM »
... If you dig through Apple documentation on the mini and other machines, the closest one too it is an eMac.
You're right,
This is the block diagram of the Mac Mini:


Most of this unsupported G4s are based 7447A and Intrepid controller.

This is the block diagram of the eMac:



This is the block diagram of the iBook:


But in the other side the Cube is more similar to a G4 Sawtooth:


All this basic Apple Hardware info can be found here:

http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/hardware2.html
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 02:09:15 PM by MacTron »
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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #329 on: March 22, 2018, 07:35:22 PM »
Very persuasive. Maybe I should broaden my efforts to understanding the Intrepid architecture better. Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #330 on: March 22, 2018, 08:22:32 PM »
  That's really neat how the Mini and eMac are laid out almost exactly the same.  For some reason I never knew AirPort Extreme was a form of PCI device - perhaps I should try to graft a real PCI slot on to that?  Is there any pinout documented for that AirPort Extreme connector type?

  The Mini is only akin to the Cube in the sense of cosmetic form factor and the associated marketing take and target end user.  Some might consider it a 'romantic notion' perhaps, but overall the Mini is vitually identical in general features to the Cube, with the exception that the AGP video is integrated.  When it comes to the true internal architecture though, you're right, it's most like an eMac from a logic and layout standpoint.  That's more a generational thing though.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #331 on: March 22, 2018, 09:34:34 PM »
A thought just occurred to me. I have been distributing ROMs with the "System Enabler" part cut out. Later versions of the Enabler contain an "NQDResidentCursor" fragment, which seems to enable a hardware cursor. Maybe reinstating the Enabler will fix our occasional cursor problem.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #332 on: March 23, 2018, 02:14:28 AM »
In fact, I can confirm that this is our problem. My MDD G4 just exhibited the same issue after booting from a ROM with everything present except for the Enabler!

Please bear with me while I rejig my build system to account for this.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #333 on: March 23, 2018, 06:22:16 AM »
Very persuasive. Maybe I should broaden my efforts to understanding the Intrepid architecture better. Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?
I thought I had mentioned this somewhere here before.

Intrepid appeard (based on the apple hardware docs and the source for OS X) to contain both uninorth and keylargo.  The thing is when they are rolled up into one things do change due to being able to more tightly couple some functions.  Also changes were probably made to the keylargo portion to better support the layout and design of these G4 machines.  Communication out of and into Intrepid is probably routed differently.  It may function at a very low basic level, but as OS 9 boots it will try to enable the full feature set, but fail as it won't be able to properly communicate with the hardware pieces, specificly in the PMU.

OS X code for these chips is interesting.  The instruction out of keylargo and intrepid to the various parts are the same, but they go out on different memory addresses.  Since OS X doesn't actually rely as heavily on OF to initialize hardware, a lot of the OS X only machines may leave some of the required information out of the device configuration and thus out of the device tree.

Just my rough knowledge from my research.

Edited to add the following:
The chips external intrepid, if you dig deap into documentation, had the most commonality between the mini and the emac.  This is not shown by simply looking at the block diagram.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 07:21:04 AM by nanopico »
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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #334 on: March 23, 2018, 08:37:14 AM »
Now my curiosity got the best of me so I had to go look stuff up.
Intrepid has an extra usb port vs the older keylargo. 
There is an extra register for it.  To put the system to sleep, all three need to be suspended/set to sleep. Before the system sleeps it polls the USB controller to make sure it can sleep.
So OS 9 probablly doesn't know to put the thrid port/bus to sleep so the controller reports not ready so the system can't sleep or stuff properly.

Code: [Select]
   // USB for KeyLargo requires the FCR4 bits before any of the other registers are
    // touched. Since FCR4 is ALL USB, then I moved it to the top of the programming list
// USB for Intrepid also supports a third bus that uses FCR3

Not that this is proof, but it's an interesting comment from  the Keylargo code in the turnOffUSB method.

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #335 on: March 23, 2018, 08:07:16 PM »
I just wanted to take a second to chime in and say how you guys (all of you) are amazing for reaching this far, and committing to this so competently and consistently. Admirable.

Sorry I couldn't join the testers: I'm still waiting for the Firewire 400 card I ordered in January for my G3 Wallstreet (shipping anything overseas sucks in Brazil). Nonetheless, if anything isn't yet 100% functional by the time it arrives, it'd be an honor to join the cause. We will see...

Anyway, things are looking good for 7447a! At work, I eagerly lurk on this thread whenever I get the chance... :)

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #336 on: March 23, 2018, 08:37:36 PM »
2. Remove the "Multiprocessing" folder from the System folder.  I did this as a precaution, perhaps not a necessity, but obviously you're not going to need it on this machine.  There's no sense chasing ghosts if you have a problem because of it.
(Bold emphasis mine.)

Actually, according to an Apple Note I read, it seems this may be not as obvious as one would normally (and understandably) speculate: https://web.archive.org/web/20020820202755/http://docs.info.apple.com:80/article.html?artnum=25048
Basically, according to this, even a single core single processor Mac is better off with it left intact. Interesting.

But hey, you guys mentioned waking from sleep problems, right? I know you all came to very good leads as to why that is happening, but could it be the last bit of that link I put also be related to it? I highlighted it in bold below:

"The files in this folder do not occupy any significant RAM or hard disk space, so you will not benefit by removing it. Although your Macintosh may have a single processor, we strongly discourage removing the Multiprocessing folder. Applications which are multiprocessor-aware rely on the software in this folder and may crash if it is not present. Also, some recent Macintosh models may not wake from sleep if this folder is removed."

Offline MacTron

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #337 on: March 24, 2018, 11:13:19 AM »
...Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?
None.  :o

Intrepid was introduced into 2004 machines ... So... why Mac Os 9 works perfectly (in some machines) with it?

This may be the reason:
Intrepid appeard (based on the apple hardware docs and the source for OS X) to contain both uninorth and keylargo.  The thing is when they are rolled up into one things do change due to being able to more tightly couple some functions.  Also changes were probably made to the keylargo portion to better support the layout and design of these G4 machines.  Communication out of and into Intrepid is probably routed differently.  It may function at a very low basic level, but as OS 9 boots it will try to enable the full feature set, but fail as it won't be able to properly communicate with the hardware pieces, specificly in the PMU.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #338 on: March 25, 2018, 11:49:36 AM »
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.


« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 01:07:24 PM by RossDarker »
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #339 on: March 25, 2018, 01:31:57 PM »
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.
I was able to start downloading it, so I think it is public (I stopped downloading right after I started because I don't actually have a Mac Mini).

Offline Jubadub

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #340 on: March 27, 2018, 06:42:03 AM »
Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

I downloaded and burnt it successfully, and used it on my Mac Mini 1.5 GHz. Held "C" on my keyboard, and it completed the entire boot sequence successfully. Awesome! But then a few issues started popping up:

- After the Desktop started loading, the screen seemed to try to adjust its resolution. I used a 1080p Samsung LED monitor/TV and, while I expected the screen to go dark from what I read happened to others, mine didn't. But the text on the desktop was completely messed up. Unreadable, save for a few letter combinations (barely). I tried adjusting monitor/resolution/color settings, but to no avail. I also noticed the control strip was missing, not sure if its extension was purposefully removed or if it just failed to load. All icons were such a blurry mess that I couldn't tell;

- Despite the aforementioned issue, I tried proceeding with installing OS 9 anyway. So, I ran what I believed mounted the image of the to-be-installed instance of Mac OS 9. That image was, seemingly, mounted successfully. When I opened the image's folder, I saw 3 folders and 3... blank icons, with some gibberish text underneath (again, probably because of my monitor: I don't think the actual text data was incorrect). I figured one of the 3 blank icons were supposed to handle the installation, but trying to open any of the 3 of them gives me an error. I couldn't read the error's message text.

And that's how it went for me. Not sure if any of that input of mine is of any use.

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #341 on: March 27, 2018, 07:52:52 AM »
Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

I downloaded and burnt it successfully, and used it on my Mac Mini 1.5 GHz. Held "C" on my keyboard, and it completed the entire boot sequence successfully. Awesome! But then a few issues started popping up:

- After the Desktop started loading, the screen seemed to try to adjust its resolution. I used a 1080p Samsung LED monitor/TV and, while I expected the screen to go dark from what I read happened to others, mine didn't. But the text on the desktop was completely messed up. Unreadable, save for a few letter combinations (barely). I tried adjusting monitor/resolution/color settings, but to no avail. I also noticed the control strip was missing, not sure if its extension was purposefully removed or if it just failed to load. All icons were such a blurry mess that I couldn't tell;

- Despite the aforementioned issue, I tried proceeding with installing OS 9 anyway. So, I ran what I believed mounted the image of the to-be-installed instance of Mac OS 9. That image was, seemingly, mounted successfully. When I opened the image's folder, I saw 3 folders and 3... blank icons, with some gibberish text underneath (again, probably because of my monitor: I don't think the actual text data was incorrect). I figured one of the 3 blank icons were supposed to handle the installation, but trying to open any of the 3 of them gives me an error. I couldn't read the error's message text.

And that's how it went for me. Not sure if any of that input of mine is of any use.

I know the 1.5ghz models have double the vram of the others. Doubt that caused anything though but it might have done. I am using a Cinema Display 20" over DVI at 1680x1050 and I think 1080p might of had an issue(not sure). Maybe if you are using your TV with a DVI to HDMI adapter, use DVI to VGA instead. Or just a native DVI monitor. The three blank icons are just labels that read "Drag the 3 folders in to the root of your destination disk", they don't control the installation and are just in the disk image to guide you. Yeah so don't open the blank icons they won't do anything, you just drag the 3 folders above them to the root of a destination disk. If you have any other monitors at all, be sure to try those, see what happens.

Also, about the control strip, it is not included on this CD image, but it is on the image, inside of this image (it's in the copy that you install, just not on the CD)

Have a look at:
https://imgur.com/e3z5dYM

https://imgur.com/DJE5Kpq

(This is what it should look like when you have booted off the CD and mounted the image by running the Application)
You could try booting the CD and holding shift when you see the small Happy Macintosh to turn off extensions.
You could also try to copy the 3 folders from the Disk Image you mount to an erased Hard Disk with os 9 drivers (with drive setup) and reboot. If still same errors, try reset the PRAM. Maybe delete the Preferences folder from System Folder on the install copy and reboot. See if this gets you anywhere, else try a different monitor if you have one and report back.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 08:46:56 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #342 on: March 27, 2018, 08:46:47 AM »
Quote
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

2 Minis arrived yesterday, I will Test CD Install

Ross, Which modified ROM version did you use ?,  Please make some notes. I will post it for the entire forum

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #343 on: March 27, 2018, 09:14:39 AM »
Quote
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

2 Minis arrived yesterday, I will Test CD Install

Ross, Which modified ROM version did you use ?,  Please make some notes. I will post it for the entire forum

I am using the ROM that doesn't enable the mini to sleep at all, it will just say you have to shut down or cancel if you try to sleep. I chose this because it is not quite right if people put it to sleep and have to reboot to wake it up, so I will wait for some more progress on the ROM to update it. Think I am using the ROM from Post 267. Ignore the attachment I attached, on this very comment as it has not been stuffed.
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #344 on: March 27, 2018, 09:24:45 AM »
Alright Ross, I'll follow all of these directions and report back accordingly. I do have one CRT monitor to dust off, so I'll do that tonight. I'll also try connecting the Mini with a VGA adapter onto the TV/monitor's VGA slot instead of the HDMI one (as you have guessed, I did use a DVI-to-HDMI connector at first). That's a pretty good suggestion... I should have thought of that!

So excited to try this out! :D Also, somehow, only now I took notice of how you guys pointed out there are Mac OS 9 drivers for the Mini's GPU! That's awesome!
(I assumed this wouldn't be the case! I thought it'd be like the 1.67 GHz Aluminum PowerBooks... Which still make me wonder if their GPUs could be flashed with an earlier ATI GPU's ROM, slightly modified, that has OS 9 drivers...)
And, man, OS 9 looks so sexy on that 20" display... I'm green with envy! So awesome! Haha.

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #345 on: March 27, 2018, 09:43:46 AM »
Good luck. I must say by the way that I have only used a drag and drop installation method because I could not get Apple Software Restore to like the image file. Its on the toast image, in the System Folder, called OS9Base.img
It kept saying something like outdated checksum. Edit: if you did use Software Restore, not sure if it would work anyway because that base image does not have OS 9 drivers in. That is why you are taking the folders and putting it onto a Mac OS 9 driver formatted drive you can make with drive setup, instead of a full restore. Then boot from the drive. Works fine as it is.

Also, hint: To mount that OS9Base image on High Sierra or just any new OS X, it will say needs to be converted, but you can type in terminal:

hdid -nomount /Volumes/Mac\ mini\ G4\ OS\ 9\ CD/System\ Folder/OS9Base.img
 (then look at what is listed and type)
diskutil mount /dev/diskX
 (X being the number that was given to you)
(The layout of the blank icons and folders will look all messed up in OS X)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 10:14:48 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #346 on: March 27, 2018, 08:03:13 PM »
I'm posting this from my Mac Mini, on OS 9. Ross, everything worked as planned. I didn't need to bring my CRT monitor along, afterall: picking up a VGA cable to plug directly on the monitor was all I needed. A DVI-to-VGA converter was used on the Mini's end.

(Note: At first I tried using the converter on the monitor/TV's end, combined with an analog-signal-capable DVI cable, but then the cable wouldn't have enough room to be plugged on it, due to the way it's physically constructed! That's why I had to switch the converter and cable around like I did.)

Also, as reported by others, no sound works at all, currently. Out of curiosity, I did try following DieHard's tip and partially plugged a pair of earphones, expecting sound to finally work, but no matter how much of it I plugged in or left unplugged, no sound came from either the Mini nor the earphones.

By the way, this LED monitor of mine really doesn't seem to be well-suited for anything other than HDMI, but, despite an odd "blur-to-the-right" shadow kinda thing, Mac OS 9 on the Mini is perfectly usable with it, visually. I'm currently using it at 1920x1080p 60Hz with Millions of colors pre-set, and it works just fine. The blur would be a bother for the eyes for daily use, so I think I'll dust off my CRT monitor anyway, but this is still pretty acceptable.

Again, I take my hat off to you guys' success on this. What an accomplishment, what a feat. With the respectful clock rate, and a driver-compatible GPU, it's as if the Mini was DESTINED to be mainly an OS 9 machine. :D This runs so juicily!

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #347 on: March 28, 2018, 12:05:57 AM »
@Jubadub

Great you got your Mac mini to boot OS 9 and run it well. I have also had problems with HDMI to DVI.

To get sound, try and connect the Mac mini to a speaker that has a volume control on, for example: Digital Keyboard, Amp, hifi, radio. Because the Mac mini will only output its volume at a certain volume, you would use the volume control on the speaker to raise/lower the volume. My mini is connected to a hifi and has sound.

If you have been testing the platinum sounds (like when closing, moving, expanding windows) you will have to enable them in Appearance Control Panel.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 12:17:37 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #348 on: March 28, 2018, 06:20:43 AM »
Ah, yes, a device with volume control, I knew I was forgetting something. I'll try out a pair of speakers with volume control tonight, thanks for the heads up. :)

Offline MacTron

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #349 on: March 28, 2018, 08:18:48 AM »
... With the respectful clock rate, and a driver-compatible GPU, it's as if the Mini was DESTINED to be mainly an OS 9 machine. :D This runs so juicily!
That's what I always thought, I had one at its time and after failing Mac Os 9 booting using the mythical Custer ROM, I sold it.  >:(

BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?
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Offline Jubadub

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #350 on: March 28, 2018, 08:26:14 AM »
Every source I read stated 1 GB being the absolute maximum, but I guess it couldn't hurt to try, if anyone has both a PPC Mini and that particular DIM...

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #351 on: March 28, 2018, 08:59:48 AM »
a pair 2GB DDR1 UDIMM is something I have been looking for, for a long time

the RackMac3,1 (Xserve G5) the 2005 one was compatible with them.

the thing is there are plenty of 2GB DDR1 RDIMMs out there registered DIMMs dont work in PPC macs, you need un-registered DIMMs and 2GB ones are neigh on impossible to find (for cheap anyway) I have never seen any on ebay

although kingston did make a kit for the Xserve (they are ECC but not registered) I have not been able to track down any,

as well testing a 2GB UDIMM in a MM G4 I would love to try them out in my PowerMac G5 7,3s (both my 2004 one and 2005 have the U3 heavy memory controller which supports ECC RAM and im hoping the 2005 PowerMac7,3 can boot with 2GB DDR1 sticks and max out at 16GB Just like how the 2005 Xserves do) the Kingston kit in question is the kta-g5400e/4g (a kit of 2 2GB ECC DDR1 UDIMMs)

Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #352 on: March 28, 2018, 07:36:41 PM »
From Mactron...
Quote
BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?

I was at this all day today, trying all sorts of RAM in the single slot of both the Mini 1.25 and Mini 1.33 that I got on eBay... 1 GB is the max.

I burnt the CD from Ross via the finder in a Mac Pro 3.1 with el cap... neither MINI will boot to it, So I ran the mini in target mode and transferred the folders from the "Ross" image... still a blinking folder with no boot :(   Have to give it more that 30 minutes tomorrow

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #353 on: March 28, 2018, 11:11:43 PM »
From Mactron...
Quote
BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?

I was at this all day today, trying all sorts of RAM in the single slot of both the Mini 1.25 and Mini 1.33 that I got on eBay... 1 GB is the max.

I burnt the CD from Ross via the finder in a Mac Pro 3.1 with el cap... neither MINI will boot to it, So I ran the mini in target mode and transferred the folders from the "Ross" image... still a blinking folder with no boot :(   Have to give it more that 30 minutes tomorrow

Diehard are you definitely burning the whole image instead of just the HFS volume. Make sure you don't mount the toast image and just right click the toast image and choose "burn disk image to disc" because there are the other mac os 9 drivers on that disc image required. Also if you just transfer the files from the base image make sure your mini's internal disk has os 9 drivers and if its blessed. Otherwise not sure because Jubadub and I have it working. Do your minis boot of an X disc?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 11:37:42 PM by RossDarker »
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Offline grhmhome

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #354 on: March 29, 2018, 07:34:30 AM »
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

Wow, thank you. I am going to give this a try on my Mac Mini. Cheers!

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #355 on: March 29, 2018, 07:54:59 AM »
Wow, thank you. I am going to give this a try on my Mac Mini. Cheers!

Good luck. Just remember to burn the image by right clicking the toast file and select "burn disk image to disc"

Don't burn the HFS volume on its own. To test if it has burned right (whole image) put the CD back in the OS X machine, pull up a terminal and type "diskutil list". If multiple partitions are shows under the CD, including Apple_Partition_Map, and others ASWELL as the HFS+ partition, then you have done it correct.  (Only HFS partition will mount, but the others HAVE to be on the CD.)
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Offline grhmhome

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #356 on: March 29, 2018, 08:56:46 AM »

Good luck. Just remember to burn the image by right clicking the toast file and select "burn disk image to disc"

Don't burn the HFS volume on its own. To test if it has burned right (whole image) put the CD back in the OS X machine, pull up a terminal and type "diskutil list". If multiple partitions are shows under the CD, including Apple_Partition_Map, and others ASWELL as the HFS+ partition, then you have done it correct.  (Only HFS partition will mount, but the others HAVE to be on the CD.)

I got it to work by converting .toast to .iso with Windows. The only issue I had was that 2 of my USB mice wouldn't work, but I found a older USB mouse that I thought was broken, but it works. The first mouse that I used is one that I use all the time, but when the drive setup window appears the mouse freezes. The 2nd mouse will work, but when the drive setup window appears, it will float to the bottom of the screen. The 3rd mouse which I thought was broken, works with no issues. Thanks again. I'll report back to this thread if I find any issues. Specs: I'm using a G4 1.33 GHZ Mac Mini with 1GB of ram, USB Magic Keyboard, and a Samsung 1920x1080 monitor.

Edit: I was able to use my ethernet out of the box. I installed Classzilla and am going to get GraphicConver US Classic to work since very old versions are now free to use. I'm using that so I can convert my screenshots to png or jpg. So much nostalgia to be had. Now, I just need some retro themes to pimp my classic mac desktop. I did find one issue, but not a serious one. When I downloaded the .sit file for the image converter, I tried opening the .sit file from Classilla's download manager and it almost froze the desktop. I got a message where I couldn't open the .sit file, so I had to open stuffit expander 6.x. Fortunately the desktop didn't crash.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:38:46 AM by grhmhome »

Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #357 on: March 29, 2018, 10:20:16 AM »
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #358 on: March 29, 2018, 11:01:59 AM »

Edit: I was able to use my ethernet out of the box. I installed Classzilla and am going to get GraphicConver US Classic to work since very old versions are now free to use. I'm using that so I can convert my screenshots to png or jpg. So much nostalgia to be had. Now, I just need some retro themes to pimp my classic mac desktop. I did find one issue, but not a serious one. When I downloaded the .sit file for the image converter, I tried opening the .sit file from Classilla's download manager and it almost froze the desktop. I got a message where I couldn't open the .sit file, so I had to open stuffit expander 6.x. Fortunately the desktop didn't crash.

Nice try getting Stuffit Deluxe from here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1280.0.html

Extract the sea file before getting rid of Stuffit 6 just incase.

After extracted, remove all programs related to and including Stuffit 6

Then install stuffit deluxe 7.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #359 on: March 29, 2018, 11:02:54 AM »
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)

Great to hear.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #360 on: March 29, 2018, 01:10:46 PM »
Attempting to make Apple Software Restore (ASR) for the mini, will be nicer to use than the drag and drop in my opinion and easier to understand. Just found a little guide in DHIDAW about it, so I am seeing what I can do.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #361 on: March 29, 2018, 02:37:43 PM »
I've put together a new toast image that uses ASR to intall Mac OS 9 now (instead of drag and drop). Works well. I have also put a CD extras folder on this image which includes Bugdom, USB Overdrive and Classilla 9.3.3, for if you wish to install those. I will upload this toast image tomorrow because have got to go for a bit.
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #362 on: March 30, 2018, 05:45:35 AM »
Removed. See my post below for ISO file instead of Toast.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 02:55:25 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline ry755

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #363 on: March 30, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »
The install image worked! And yeah, it's much better than draging and dropping. Posting this from my G4 Mini! :D

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #364 on: March 31, 2018, 02:44:50 AM »
Here is an ISO file, with better credits in the Read Me file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZWthPpEkt_eNgpdJDZpCweXqMi9fXxgf/view?usp=sharing
Click Download Anyway, after you have clicked Download.
If you use Chrome, it may say this file can harm your computer, make sure to NOT discard it and instead keep it, by going to Chrome://downloads

Mac mini G4s will boot off this if this ISO is burned to a CD/DVD.
(Uses Apple Software Restore instead of Drag and Drop, nicer way to install the OS)
This image will be read & write if you are using Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard and below, so lock the file to avoid writing to it. Windows users, you probably won't be able to read this file at all, but you can still burn it.

To burn this file
On Mac OS X, without opening the toast file, right click on the toast file and select "Burn Disk Image "Mac mini OS 9 CD.iso" to Disc..."

If this option does not show up, open up Disk Utility, deselect anything that is selected then press burn. Select the toast file and burn it.

On Mac OS 9, you can use Toast application to burn the ISO file. Make sure to select bootable options.

On Windows, right click the ISO and choose burn disc image to disk.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 03:21:54 AM by RossDarker »
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Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #365 on: April 01, 2018, 08:17:21 AM »
Great to see so many people having fun with their minis! Attached is a ROM with a couple more tweaks: now it declares the machine to be a PowerMac3,5 (Quicksilver 2002), and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

I have spent a bit of time picking apart the NanoKernel's interrupt handling code, mostly out of curiosity. The interrupt architecture of the Classic Mac OS is very unusual: PowerPC interrupts get serviced by emulated 68k handlers. This "temporary hack" was supposed to be replaced by Copland's PowerPC-native interrupt architecture within a couple of years of the introduction of the Power Mac. But instead, the Copland model was grafted *on top* of the Classic 68k model. The code that implements all this within a multitasking environment is hard to reverse, full of edge cases, and very very fast. I think that this kind of "liberating desperation" is what attracts a lot of us to the Classic Mac OS.

But when I get back to the mini, I intend to sort out first sound, then sleep.

Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #366 on: April 01, 2018, 12:59:29 PM »
@ELN, nice new ROM, I will put this in the ASR CD tomorrow. Here is a little Custom Mac mini G4 Picture, if you look carefully I changed the CD that is out half way to an OS 9 CD.
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Offline IIO

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #367 on: April 01, 2018, 01:02:42 PM »
something tells me i should better stay away from files uploaded today.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
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Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #368 on: April 01, 2018, 06:27:38 PM »
@ELN, nice new ROM, I will put this in the ASR CD tomorrow. Here is a little Custom Mac mini G4 Picture, if you look carefully I changed the CD that is out half way to an OS 9 CD.

OK... that image is awesome !

Offline DieHard

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #369 on: April 01, 2018, 06:29:31 PM »
Great to see so many people having fun with their minis! Attached is a ROM with a couple more tweaks: now it declares the machine to be a PowerMac3,5 (Quicksilver 2002), and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

But when I get back to the mini, I intend to sort out first sound, then sleep.

Nooooo, the "Cube" thing was really cool... let's take a vote....

Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #370 on: April 01, 2018, 06:52:03 PM »
Great picture, RossDarker. :D

The only reason I’ve changed the reported model is that there could well be some code somewhere that checks it anc changed behaviour on that basis. That would be a very nasty hack, but I have seen it happen. I’ll investigate further.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #371 on: April 02, 2018, 07:03:14 AM »
... and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

As you know I was using the Mac Mini develop, with my unsupported Mac, with great successful. But I had never suffered the frozen-mouse problem ...
What I suffer is a sporadic and continous  "open upper drive" command that last a few time, and don't allow the drive plate to be closed, what ever you do, it is forced to stay open. While this is occurring, the mouse is frozen,  I had thougth that the drive was damaged, and the mouse is stopped as a typical effect of an IOWait...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 07:41:16 AM by MacTron »
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Offline RossDarker

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #372 on: April 02, 2018, 11:28:10 AM »
@ELN, I have made an ASR CD with the new ROM (Quicksilver identity and that System Enabler). The mouse cursor has not frozen at all but the sound coming out through speakers is either really loud or distorted. I have tested things and this does not happen with the older ROM. For now I will just have the link to a G4 Cube identity as that has better sound for the Mac mini. Do you know the reason behind this sound issue?
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Offline ELN

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #373 on: April 02, 2018, 04:13:42 PM »
Uh-oh! Better revert to the Cube ROM. But I expect that a batter unterstanding of the prim-info structure will clear this up.

Offline MacOS Plus

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Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
« Reply #374 on: April 02, 2018, 05:05:38 PM »
   From what I can tell, the signal from the Mini is essentially coming out at maximum gain by default without the Sound control panel able to set proper variables.  Whatever program is supplying the audio source has to have its own level control or else the content can be loud enough to cause distortion or clipping.  Certainly this was the case when I was testing MP3 playback with WinAmp.  Presumably the Mac OS ROM has some machine-specific overrides that have unpredictable results if applied to another unintended machine model.  It would be nice if we knew how to cap the gain to a safe maximum on the Mini, at least as it applies to line level signal output.