Author Topic: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic  (Read 8108 times)

Offline Mat

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Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« on: February 01, 2013, 06:20:47 AM »
One point that annoys me the last decade it the fact, that terms are not correclty defined.

Classic is the emulation used in later Operating Systems for booting Mac OS 9
So Mac OS 9 IS NOT Classic!

That is recently very important as I think. Especially when you look at different problems people got with Classic or other emulations, and blame the Operating System. It makes sometimes a bad feeling towards Mac OS 9 (or below) even if it is simply about the poor emulation!

How to deal with this? I have no correct term for Mac OS 9.2.2 and below. And I belive Apple itselve is not sad about the mixed up terms. I would love if we could try to establish a correct term. "Mac 9 and prior" or similar terms are too long and complicated. Any ideas?

Offline Ari

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 09:13:26 AM »
Why not use the term "Pre- OS X" :)?

Offline Mat

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 10:42:29 AM »
No. As X and 9 are totally different Operating Systems thats not a good solution. That would be like calling AmigaOS "pre MorphOS" ;)

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 12:19:40 AM »
When I created the Mac OS 9 Lives site I alluded to the the fact that there is no "Class" in classic; meaning that the Classic Environment of OS X was not good enough and that it was not as the definition would imply (classic - something of lasting worth or with a timeless quality) and that booting directly to Mac OS 9 was far superior.  I am with you that we need a term that describes running Mac OS when booting directly to it and not via an emulation... maybe "Pure Mac OS" or some other term that implies it has not been tainted thru an emulator...LOL

Offline rg8766

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 01:47:12 AM »
Would not simply referring to it as OS9 or System 9 (the later linking it more to the System 6 System 7 lineage, the former linking it to the OS8 alterations) be sufficient.

Offline Mat

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 07:49:36 AM »
Well "OS9" is something completely different - a very interresting philosopy, but has nothing to do with Macs. "Pure Mac OS 9" sounds good in my opinion.
BTW in some forums the iCrowd starts to post more and more Mountain Lion questions at Mac OS 8 & 9 subforums,

supernova777

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2015, 05:47:05 PM »
lets be clear on this fact ..

the emulator is named after the reference to the os.
Mac OS 9 .. is, for all intents & purposes, the "9th edition" of the "CLASSIC" mac operating system.

yes there is an emulator also called "CLASSIC" within Tiger.. but its called this in reference to the "Classic" macintosh opertating system
so there isnt just one definition .. of "Classic"  -- "classic" refers both to the emulator within the newer OSX Operating System & to the "classic" mac os, its dubbed classic mac os because after its longterm use, it has been REPLACED... some people use the word "legacy" to refer to old products.. some use words like "classic".. in the case
of the macintosh os.. i think the term "classic" is more than fitting!

its confusing only to people that think that one word should only one meaning.



Offline IIO

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2015, 11:07:49 PM »
Would not simply referring to it as OS9

because OS9 is something different.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 08:36:28 AM »
Yeah, we have to "Think Different"

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 08:40:39 AM »
maybe one of these days we can share the story how each one of us fell in love with os9 :D

Offline ProfileName

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 11:25:21 AM »
The distinction is clear, no need for a new label.
Classic is the emulator
OS 9 is the system
OS 9

Offline geforceg4

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2016, 02:54:48 PM »
diehard looks like its time to change the registration questions when u have spambots registering + posting on the forum!
like the user above!


By Diehard...
Yeah... I deleted the post... looks like I'm going to have to check the newbies better again :(
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 08:00:10 AM by DieHard »

Offline GaryN

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 03:47:32 PM »
I feel nitpicky today so I'm going back to the beginning of this entire discussion to take issue with the definitions herein.

Classic is the emulation used in later Operating Systems for booting Mac OS 9

I submit that OS9 Classic is not an emulation.

Although it descends from The Rhapsody Blue Box, it does not operate as an abstraction. Rather…

It is a unique complete instance of an OS9 System folder, with System, Finder and a New World ROM File running in a sandbox simultaneously with OSX.

This is possible because it runs on Power PC systems only - up to and including G5.
All other SheepShaver-type emulators that run on Intel hardware are far more complex and less efficient because they have to actually imitate the OS9 functions in a "foreign" environment.

Offline nanopico

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 08:23:30 PM »
C
I feel nitpicky today so I'm going back to the beginning of this entire discussion to take issue with the definitions herein.

Classic is the emulation used in later Operating Systems for booting Mac OS 9

I submit that OS9 Classic is not an emulation.

Although it descends from The Rhapsody Blue Box, it does not operate as an abstraction. Rather…

It is a unique complete instance of an OS9 System folder, with System, Finder and a New World ROM File running in a sandbox simultaneously with OSX.

This is possible because it runs on Power PC systems only - up to and including G5.
All other SheepShaver-type emulators that run on Intel hardware are far more complex and less efficient because they have to actually imitate the OS9 functions in a "foreign" environment.


The ROM though is actually part of the classic/blue box (which the binaries for classic are still labeled blue box in a lot of places). Just to further ad that it is not emulation.  You can remove the ROM from your OS 9 System folder for classic and it still works since Classic sort of acts like an Old World ROM machine. The ROM it uses is a shim that just maps most of the system calls in the ROM to the native OS X.  That's the short of it anyway.

I completely agree that it is not in any way an emulation!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline DieHard

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2016, 08:13:14 AM »
Great Job Guys :)

It's nice to teach an old dog new tricks... appreciate the clarification here.

I originally posted posted on the main site...
Quote
Without getting too bogged down in the technical jargon; the computer must be capable of booting to Mac OS 9 directly and without OS X present whatsoever. This is as opposed to running OS 9 via the “Classic Environment” (a hardware and software abstraction layer in Mac OS X that allows OS 9 applications to run on Mac OS X). The main problem with Classic is that it does not allow the direct access to hard drives and audio cards (if you're building an audio or video studio Mac). Retro gaming also benefits greatly from booting directly to OS 9.

Not incorrect... but vague... If I get time I will try to clarify it without getting too specific, but I will add the "PowerPC" only info. and mention that it is NOT an emulation since the vast majority will assume this...

So, now we got that straight... please add the "Classic Environment" to Leopard when you have some time guys :)

Offline nanopico

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2016, 12:25:09 PM »

So, now we got that straight... please add the "Classic Environment" to Leopard when you have some time guys :)

As if I haven't tackled enough, but I think this might be a weekend project, or a fall flat on my face and go back into hiding project.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline MacTron

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2016, 07:34:06 AM »
Emulation not only refers to hardware emulation but software also. (or both)
The whole Classic environment in Mac Os X creates a virtual machine that emulates a Mac Os 9 environment to allow to run classic mac applications. (note the low and capital letters).
Apple called this environment Classic. But we can - using correct meaning language - to call classic apps and classic operating systems (Mac Os 9, Mac Os 8.x, System 7.x etc...) to ones before Os X or "modern" SO.

Furdermore the whole Classic environment will fade in to irrelevance in computer history. While mac Os classics apps, hardware am SOs will remain a hit in computer history. So I state for using this term for Mac Os 9, Mac Os 8.x, System 7.x ... hardware and software, while the use as Classic Environment on Mac Os X fades into irrelevancy.
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Offline torvan

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2016, 03:12:42 PM »
To me, and this might be technically incorrect but it is "feeling" correct:

I just trash all the "Classic" items in the System Folder. Sure, I would not be able to run OS9 and older apps when in OS X, but I use OS X only apps in OS X anyway.

I also use Greg's Browser to look at the OS 9 drive (note there are two drives-OS 9 and X) and remove all the "." items that OS X uses.

Offline Mat

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Re: Mac OS 9 is NOT Classic
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2016, 10:24:50 PM »
I cannot tell if it is technically seen an emulation or VM or RTE or whatever. And that even doesn´t really matter if we care about the real problem. It still is, that many people think running Classic or even SheepShaver shows them Mac OS 9.
And most problems they are running into, are about the poor "emulation" not the OS. So I really would love to avaoid all terms like "Classic, classic, classic OS" or similar when we talk about our OS.