MIXER-DAW integration via analog mixer INSERTS

[supernova777]

do any of our users use Inserts on an analog mixer, wired via Stereo TRS jacks to both input + output on their soundcard?



heres a pic from ethanwiner's site  http://ethanwiner.com/mixer2daw.html

in the pic above,
only a stereo return is wired to the last stereo channel 13-14
and i assume hes using the well known "INSERT AS DIRECT OUT" trick with the jacks inserted to the first click trick.. to tap the signal
without signal interuption of the channel strip to the stereo output of the mixer...

but what im talking about is wiring it differently..to acheive each seperate track both to and from the daw..
using TRS stereo or INSERT jacks, fully inserted (2nd click?)
insert jacks as u know have 1/4" on one side, and two wires on the other side
one for send, one for return
and connecting each of these to an input & output on your audio interface
basically creating a loop to + from (through) your DAW software
back into the channel strip.. (assuming u also have it routed to the output in your software of course)

why do i want to do this?
for studio recording + mixing.. **to be able to still mix your levels on the faders of your mixer. and also for a true analog sum of all parts to the stereo out from the mixer to the monitors.. (and possibly a 2 track sum analog tape or dat or hard drive recording)

so signal path would be like this:
Source >  line/mic in > gain/trim > insert out > DAW input > processed in the daw > DAW output > INsert return >EQ >FADER > main stereo out from mixer

is this feasible?
would this introduce too much latency?

[GaryN]

It's feasible. This setup enables you to use the front end of the mixer (and therefore the mic pres) for recording and the rest for mixdown without repatching. Recording a line in level does put what may be a redundant gain stage between the instrument and DAW... not a huge deal assuming you have a decent mixer.  Latency is eliminated if you're able to get a record monitor send right from the mixer - say, via an aux. Latency comes right back if you need say, a plugin limiter or such on the record line AND you have to hear the effect of that plugin while recording. In other words, the exact same latency situation with or without the mixer. Latency is created in the DAW -  not in the analog surroundings.

[supernova777]

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?board=98.0

u can check out the progress of my research on mix desks here this past week..
if anyone knows any mixers i should look at .. im particularly interested in ones with more elaborate routing options pre/post switchable /w direct outs etc

[DieHard]

To expand on a few key points...

1) Latency would be very high on an old DAW if you were monitoring back via the same channel (running the insert signal back to the source channel on the mixer) or monitoring the stereo out of the DAW with the signals that are being recorded.

2) Remember inserts interrupt the signal and only come back if you return them, playing with the cable (the direct out trick 1 click) is just bound to mess up a track sooner or later, so that is just out if you want a reliable setup...

plug the cable in to the “first click” of the Insert Jack. This will tap the signal and send it straight out to the recorder, while still allowing it to pass on through to the mixer’s main outputs. The only drawback to this is that if you don’t get the cable plugged in just right (to only the first click), you may end up with either no signal to your recorder or no signal to the main outputs (or both).

A good trick...

So a better alternative than the “first click” or the “all-the-way-in” method is to use a special cable or adapter that both passes the signal for the channel to the send of the Insert Jack but still passes it on through to the mixer’s outputs as normal. To do this, you can use a Stereo Plug to Mono Jack adapter with a normal mono TS to TS cable. Or you could buy a special Insert Direct Out cable adapter.

Read the full story here: http://silentsky.net/wordpress/archives/113

Other approaches, if you still don't like the "turn inserts into direct outs approach", if you have an old DAW with a older mac and limited CPU power, you still have a few options if you want zero latency

A) BEST OPTION: Turn off recoding monitoring in the DAW altogether; Get a mixer with a direct out on each channel, you simply monitor all recording channels live (via the mixer); and send every channel to a corresponding input on you audio interface; make sure your signal is at a good level by checking your input levels for each channel you are recording in the DAW and adjust the trim on each channel.  Now if you alter the fader on the mixer for monitoring, the recording level will NOT change, that is why direct outs are made for recording.  You can run your stereo mix out of the DAW back to the Mixer into 2 unused inputs (just to hear the previously recorded tracks, the new tracks you are recording, you will hear live, remember in this scenario DAW monitoring is turned OFF) and you will hear everything you recorded and the new tracks all with no latency.

B) POOR MAN'S OPTION: Ok, so your mixer was only $10 at a yard sale and it has no direct outs or inserts on each channel, well that kinda sucks for you, but you can still use the aux sends (or busses if your board has them) to the inputs of your DAW audio interface. This gets a little tricky, and is only good if the number of aux sends (or busses) of your mixer is equal to or greater that the number of tracks you want to record
An example, your mixer has 4 aux sends (and none are currently being used for effects), so you wire every main Aux send out to an input of your audio interface.  Now simply, turn up the corresponding aux send knob on the channel you want to record into your DAW, but be carefull, if you have an aux send accidentally turned on on a channel you are monitoring (but don't want to record); you will ruin your track with bleed from channels you are not trying to record. 
Example of this method: In your mixer, you have a guitar in channel 1, bass in channel 2, and a stereo keyboard in channel 3 and 4; also your DAW stereo out comes back into channels 5 & 6 (panned left and right).  I think it's obvious, but... Channel 1 of the mixer will be panned center and you will turn up only Aux send 1 (Auxes 2,3, and 4 are set to 0) until your DAW input 1 has a good signal, channel 2 of the mixer will also be panned center and you will turn up only Aux send 2 (Auxs 1,3, and 4 are set to 0) until your DAW input 2 has a good signal; Channel 3 of the mixer will be panned left and you will turn up only Aux send 3 (Auxs 1,2, and 4 are set to 0) until your DAW input 3 has a good signal; Channel 4 of the mixer will be panned right and you will turn up only Aux send 4 (Auxs 1,2, and 3 are set to 0) until your DAW input 4 has a good signal; Remember all the panning stuff is only so you can monitor the tracks being recorded comfortably, it has nothing to do with what is being recorded with the  auxes.  Also, since most aux sends are pre-fader, moving the faders while monitoring will NOT mess up the recording levels

[supernova777]

the whole insert as direct out option isnt really what im looking for to be honest..
because inserts are almost always before the aux send + return.. which i want to use for effects!!! and i want to record the wet signal after Eq, and after aux return..
which is why i need a mixer with a pre-fader or post fader direct out

but that scenario wont let me do an analog mixdown on the board..

cant win!!

[mrhappy]

If your mixing console has bus inserts you could use those as your post fader 'direct outs' ... you'd have the option of Channel insert as your pre fader 'direct outs' as well.

I had ALL my console inserts wired to a half-normal patch bays to use as 'ins' and 'outs'.

[supernova777]

If your mixing console has bus inserts you could use those as your post fader 'direct outs' ... you'd have the option of Channel insert as your pre fader 'direct outs' as well.

I had ALL my console inserts wired to a half-normal patch bays to use as 'ins' and 'outs'.

thats actually a really good idea.. !!
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec99/articles/patchbay.htm

is there any type of patchbay that would allow for one touch button routing toggle? rather then physically unplug/replug
ie pressing one button to switch from a row of inputs of synths/drum machines to the inputs back from the computer (for mix down)

hmm http://www.violetaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19 maybe this is one such idea?

back to the original subject:
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/mixchoos.htm
this page is insightful

[supernova777]

pretty sure this is the setup im interested in.. which requires a mixer with tapereturns or a/b input switching aswell as direct outs

The inline console method also involves connecting the direct outputs of the channel strips used for inputs through a patchbay to the track inputs, and also providing the submaster bus outputs at the patchbay. But here, the tape returns come into special inputs on the same channel strips that feed the tape tracks. You need fewer channel strips with this method, but have a much more complicated console to use. You will also find some situations where you cannot do what you want to do due to setup limitations.

[supernova777]

came across this image in this article:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/articles/mixercomputer.asp

thought id post as its somewhat relevant to topic;)

also this:

Q. Should I be using my mixer's group outputs or its direct outs for recording?
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan06/articles/qa0106_4.htm

[mrhappy]

pretty sure this is the setup im interested in.. which requires a mixer with tapereturns or a/b input switching aswell as direct outs

Yeah if you have a board with tape returns you could switch between tape/ line for your two different sources ( while also having XLR mic inputs/pre amps)