Author Topic: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke  (Read 7617 times)

Offline Metrophage

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B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« on: December 18, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »
In short - you've got to be very careful what hard drives you install into B&Ws. I knew this, but still had trouble. I'll go into some details of what happened and why to hopefully save others the trouble.

There are two versions of B&W G3, Rev.1 and Rev.2. The main difference is the ATA controller chip. The first one they tried can't handle more than one drive, so in trying to keep up it scrambles the data, corrupting your file system and everything on it. Even though I knew this, I thought mine was a Rev.2 what it was really a Rev.1, so I got bit on the backside. How you can tell is by reading the ATA controller chip, which is located between the fourth PCI slot and the ATA connector. The Rev.1 chips say CMD PCI646U2, whereas the Rev.2 chips say CMD 646U2-402. I think I had read that one can tell just by the serial number on the back of the case, but whatever source I had followed before was incorrect.

Another problem is that my drive was too large. I vaguely remembered a limit of about 190 GB of drive size... but that was for MDD G4s! The B&W needs a drive of 130 GB or less. I don't know how installing another drive controller might help. Hopefully it would avoid these problems entirely.

When I read that B&W "don't support" more drives (rev1) or larger drives, they meant it. This is not "unsupported" in the sense that it will work, but is not recommended. It will not work. The drive setup tools and OS installers will not warn you at all. Within a few hours of trying to set up a 9.2.2 system like this, 27% of the file system was corrupt - including the System Resources file.

Never doing that again!

Offline DieHard

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 06:05:17 PM »
Quote
The Rev.1 chips say CMD PCI646U2, whereas the Rev.2 chips say CMD 646U2-402

That is the way to tell, back in the day, when I was purchasing over 30 used G3s a week, I never found a reliable way to tell from the serial number or any other markings on the case when the unit was a 350 or 400 MHz... For eBay auctions I would look for the additional drive bracket to make a good guess on which units to buy...the full scoop from Low-end Mac
Quote
The Revision 2 B&W G3 uses a different motherboard, has an additional drive bracket, incorporates a new IDE controller chip (marked 402) that supports UDMA-33, and includes a faster version of the ATI Rage 128 video card. 350 MHz and 400 MHz models may have either motherboard; 450 MHz versions only shipped from the factory with the Rev. 2 board. The improved IDE controller supports the standard master/slave drive configuration and solves a drive corruption problem. The Revision 1 board isn’t stable with many modern hard drives on the built-in IDE bus because the controller doesn’t support UDMA (Mac OS X does an end run around this problem by disabling UDMA on the Rev. 1 motherboard).

Checking the IDE Controller chip is a little similar to checking a QS Motherboard (to see if it is 48-bit LBA compliant)... you just gotta get your hands dirty and look :) At live auctions we would take a quick look at inspection time and make notes on the good units.

In the case of the G3 B&W, the rev 1 MB was a total nightmare and corrupted stuff at random even with small drives that were Ultra DMA compliant; the rev 2 with large drives would end up in a bad situation, when you exceeded the ability to address data past the 128GB mark, you corrupt the files.

With all DAWs we made with Rev 1 Systems (and most rev 2) we added Atto SCSI cards and SCSI HDs and had No issues

Offline Metrophage

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 06:35:02 PM »
For eBay auctions I would look for the additional drive bracket to make a good guess on which units to buy

True, but somewhere along the way I think I must have installed another drive bracket it there and forgotten. I used to find the extra brackets being sold off all the time.

Checking the IDE Controller chip is a little similar to checking a QS Motherboard (to see if it is 48-bit LBA compliant)... you just gotta get your hands dirty and look :) At live auctions we would take a quick look at inspection time and make notes on the good units.

My hands can get quite dirty, it's my nose I am worried about. XD My eyes aren't great, but once my dust allergy sets me off sneezing they are even worse.


With all DAWs we made with Rev 1 Systems (and most rev 2) we added Atto SCSI cards and SCSI HDs and had No issues

Exactly what I was going to do, I have an Atto card here *somewhere* but haven't seen it since the move. It'll go nicely with this stack of lightly-used SCSI drives I saved from my last job. They won't be quiet, but they'll be fast and reliable.

supernova777

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 08:00:51 PM »
this problem is easily sidestepped by simply not using the ide controller and installing a bootable sata pci card or pci ide controller, in my rev2 450mhz i have an ACARD 6880m which is ATA133 which is leaps + bounds faster then the built in rev2 udma33/66 ide controller..

Offline IIO

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 08:53:54 PM »
Another problem is that my drive was too large. I vaguely remembered a limit of about 190 GB of drive size... but that was for MDD G4s! The B&W needs a drive of 130 GB or less. I don't know how installing another drive controller might help. Hopefully it would avoid these problems entirely.

the 190 mb limit is the max volume size when you want to boot into OS9 or lower. the cure is partitioning.

the 130 mb limit is the HD size max for any 48 bit controller. there is a cure in the form of software, but i have no idea or experience if that will work on machines before quicksilver/digital audio. and i personally dont trust such software solutions...
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Offline Metrophage

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 09:12:56 PM »
True, but I don't happen to have any of those laying around. I wanted this to be a quick and easy setup of a box for utility purposes, poised between my X systems and earlier units. Mine range from 6.0.8 to 10.6.8 for now (10.8 soonish), so having a unit which could use cheap and plentiful drives and RAM as well as easily fit with SCSI, serial, and ADB seemed ideal. Handy for interfacing with old hardware, file transfers, AppleShare, LocalTalk bridging, etc.

That Atto card will turn up sometime. One of my goals was to not spend any money on this box.

supernova777

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2014, 09:22:08 PM »
True, but I don't happen to have any of those laying around. I wanted this to be a quick and easy setup of a box for utility purposes, poised between my X systems and earlier units. Mine range from 6.0.8 to 10.6.8 for now (10.8 soonish), so having a unit which could use cheap and plentiful drives and RAM as well as easily fit with SCSI, serial, and ADB seemed ideal. Handy for interfacing with old hardware, file transfers, AppleShare, LocalTalk bridging, etc.

That Atto card will turn up sometime. One of my goals was to not spend any money on this box.

yeap the b&w g3 was right on the cusp between oldworld + newworld... 1 foot in the distant past.. 1 foot in the usb/firewire future;)
mine is destined to become a studio vision pro machine running on mac os 8.6. when i finally get it all setup..
just waiting on getting the serial adapter.. i have a serial card but it takes up a slot.. and thats alot because theres only 3 slots.. (excluding the graphics slot of course)
right now it has 2 gina 20bit audio cards in it..providing 16 channels of audio recording, which only work in non-agp graphics macs (b&w, yikes) as i recently discovered in other threads here.. + the acard 6880m.. which i found to be a neccessity to avoid problems that u just outlined here.. but ideally i want to get it running
on SSD/flash and lose the mechanical drives.. so i plan on putting IDE flash dom directly into the acard 6880m. which is luckily a low profile card

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2014, 09:41:57 PM »
I have a B&W Rev 1 G3 with newer 450 G3 chip. I have also a G4 ZIF 450 waiting to be used on it.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1213.0

Most firmwares upgrades for G3 B&W  require the boot drive to be the IDE onboard one. Also require original firmware. If it was upgraded before, bye G4ability.  :(

I bought the G3 with a Sonnet ATA 66 card from original owner.

ADB port hardware is not commom in this forum, but there out are Keyboards/Mouse/Trackpad/WebCams/... It was the last Wozniac thing on PowerPC...  :(
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 08:09:37 PM »
Most firmwares upgrades for G3 B&W  require the boot drive to be the IDE onboard one. Also require original firmware. If it was upgraded before, bye G4ability.  :(

not sure if i told u this but years before i ever joined this forum.. around 2008 i had a g3 400mhz that i was trying to update.. and it would not let me do it.. i had a g4 450 chip the same as u.. or it was a 500 one of the two.. and i was trying to upgrade the cpu and it would not work no matter what i did..
i ended up throwing the entire machine into a dumpster i felt guilty about it afterwards!!! LOL like i had killed someone + Dumped the body ;D

Offline filipetolhuizen

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 01:35:32 PM »
Most firmwares upgrades for G3 B&W  require the boot drive to be the IDE onboard one. Also require original firmware. If it was upgraded before, bye G4ability.  :(

not sure if i told u this but years before i ever joined this forum.. around 2008 i had a g3 400mhz that i was trying to update.. and it would not let me do it.. i had a g4 450 chip the same as u.. or it was a 500 one of the two.. and i was trying to upgrade the cpu and it would not work no matter what i did..
i ended up throwing the entire machine into a dumpster i felt guilty about it afterwards!!! LOL like i had killed someone + Dumped the body ;D
There are some G4 blockage removal tools around. I might still have it here somewhere. I used in my B&W to upgrade the CPU. It worked fine.

supernova777

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 07:10:23 PM »
u are probably right - it should have worked - but for some reason it didnt and i threw both the machine + the zif into a dumpster.. i was totally bummed about it too.. this was like back in 2008 or something.. !

Offline filipetolhuizen

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 04:48:03 PM »
u are probably right - it should have worked - but for some reason it didnt and i threw both the machine + the zif into a dumpster.. i was totally bummed about it too.. this was like back in 2008 or something.. !
By the end of 2007 I upgraded mine with a G4 350 which I could push up to 450mhz with voltage tweak. I did use one of the G4 blockage removal tools first. I could never manage to stably achieve 500mhz with the 2 G4 400mhz chips I have using the same voltage tweak, like one of the guys from xrl8yourmac, even with extra cooling. If only I ran into your dumpster at that date... ::)

Offline mrhappy

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Re: B&W G3 hard drive choices - data corruption is no joke
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2015, 10:23:47 PM »
i threw both the machine + the zif into a dumpster

Ahh... The 'ol 'Data Dump'! ;D