MDD Water cooling

[Syntho]

I remember posting this about a year ago but no one knew what I was talking about: why is it that when I click down with my mouse, the pitch of the whirring noise coming from my MDD changes? It goes down in pitch.

[supernova777]

I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

you may have thought u swapped them them for decent-enuff fans but i guarantee that your effort is best placed finding better replacements
i have come to that conclusion for my own fans for one of my mdds ...

"There wasnt much of a difference" that says it all.. re-read what u wrote ...... !

heres the thing, ive used different fans in both of my mdds, one is whisper quiet (well.. its no louder than a normal pc) + the other is still kind of noisy (to the point that i purposely shut it down to get rid of the noise) because the fans i used to replace in that one kind of sucked (hah.. no pun intended) -- the 60x60x25mm fans might loook the same but they differ greatly in audible noise + airflow.

in my quiet mdd, the black fans that i got.. i got them from a small business in my area that had definately taken them out of some other computers they were junking... they werent new.. and i have no idea what make + model they are.. otherwise id be detailing that for your benefit!

if your mdd is still noisey... the fans in your powersupply are to blame.. 100% and your replacement effort didnt do the job because the ones u replaced the originals with are still too freaking loud. its a great satisfaction to have a whisper quiet mdd.. its worth spending 20-30$ on fixing. but the problem is,
which brand + model of fans to use? it could get expensive if u are buying pairs of 60x60x25mm fans that still arent fixing the noise problem.
this is why i had originally asked people to share which fans they are happy with if they are still available for order from some place so other people can achieve the same satisfaction of less noise.

my mdd that is noisey.. i used fans i bought from ebay.. probably from taiwan or china or something.. and they suck!!! they were like 2$ each or somethng i guess u get what u pay for..  one of them broke as i was installing it somehow too but i was ok because i ordered 4 of them expecting as much
its better to go to a specialized american/canadian retail/e-shop that stocks alot of cooling gear. (such as frozen cpu)
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g36/c15/s57/list/p1/Fans-12_Volt_Fans-60mm_x_25mm_Fans-Page1.html

20CFM 17DBA >> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/19346/fan-1205/Fractal_Design_R2_60mm_x_25mm_Silent_Series_60mm_Fan_-_3000_RPM_FD-FAN-SSR2-60.html?tl=g36c15s57

22CFM 30DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/10638/fan-693/Akasa_60mm_x_25mm_Auto_Thermal_Fan_-_1500_-_4500_RPM_25C_-_45C_-_AK-192BKT-B.html?tl=g36c15s57#blank

24 CFM, 15DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/9352/fan-585/Noiseblocker_NB-BlackSilentFan_XR2_60mmx25mm_Ultra_Quiet_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_15_dBA.html?tl=g36c15s57

20CFM 27DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/6383/fan-359/FrozenCPU_60mm_x_25mm_DC_Fan_DFC602512H.html?tl=g36c15s57

23CFM 32DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/2430/fan-118/Evercool_60mm_4_LED_Aluminum_Fan_-_Multicolor.html?tl=g36c15s57

23CFM 32DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/2452/fan-147/Evercool_60mm_4_LED_Aluminum_Fan_-_Blue.html?tl=g36c15s57

after a quick comparison the quoted specs (true or not) look best on these two models.. the fractal design + noiseblocker
noise blocker being a better choice because u dont want to go down too far in cfm. the originals were what.. 40cfm?
plus theres two of them side by side... so 17 + 17 = 34dba . which is a helluva lot better then 35+35 = 70dba which is prob what you are hearing now

WAIT i made a mistake that noiseblocker fan is only 14CFM!!! and not suitable
but yea, review specs on your own.. aim for 25CFM + under 25 DBA if possible

[Syntho]

I'm switching the power supply.

[blemk]

I'm switching the power supply.

If you plan to keep the MDD, would recommend it. The ATX adapter is a bit of an investment in $$$ and/or time, but if you plan to keep the mdd going a ATX(or micro atx) power supply is an easy choice. Once you have adapter purchased/made, take your pick of atx power supply whenever you need one and atx power supply and be recycled on a standard pc later (worst case). If you mod atx power supply (changing pin out without a nice plug and play adapter), that is also an option but you will be undoing your mod if you ever want to use that power supply in something else.

If the MDD power supply was somehow using 80 MM or above fans, this would be an easy upgrade. but 60 mm fans with any decent amount of cfm are going to be ear bleeders when you factor in frequency and amplitude of the noise.

[Syntho]

Actually my MDD has always given me problems since over a year ago so I'm probably going to get a QS machine for a new Pro Tools rig. The MDD has had hardware trouble since the beginning so I think I'll retire her for good and use her for emergencies only.

I'm going to get a QS first and see what it's like, then switch out the main big fan with the one in my MDD. After that I'll see about switching out the power supply altogether with that adapter you posted a link to.

I wonder if that would be enough to get it about as quiet as it's gonna get. The MDD has that little fan on the door but I'm not sure about what else is in the QS.

[Syntho]

And by the way, let me clear something up about your MDD pics.

The fan on the left which is on the side of that additional HD bay - that one seems like it's for blowing on the heatsink (but you've removed it).

The very small thin fan on the door itself looks like it's for blowing on the additional HD bay.

You seem to have added a two-fan contraption which looks like it's blowing air out the back of the case,

and you also seem to have placed a smaller fan on top of that two-fan setup which blows directly on the CPU.

Is that correct?

If I can switch out the power supply, the only other fan I'll replace is the one that I said looks like is blowing on the heatsink. I wonder if that will be enough to cool the QS/MDD as much as I need to. It seems like adding more fans would make it more loud which is what I'm trying to avoid. If I get a power supply like you posted, the air from it would be blowing into the case now though, so maybe an additional case fan at the back would be necessary.

[blemk]

K.. About images an fans.

Start with -> http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2027.0;attach=1660;image

Top to bottom of image. Black box up top with fan facing you as you lock at image is power supply.
Bottom right corner of power supply leads to control interface for the Corsair H80 (normally on cpu/waterblock/pump, but I extended cables so I could move it remotely).
That control module is on top of 120mmx120mmx40mm (approx. 40mm) radiator for watercooling with 120x120mm fan on each side of radiator sucking/blowing air from inside case to back (through original mdd case vent holes in back when door is closed).
Little lower to the left, I replaced the original 120 pabst/delta fan with a more moderate 120 mm fan that maxes out at approx. 2000 rpm (probably not needed with 2x 120mm fans around the radiator).
Final black colored mass in image is water-block/pump on top of cpu which just barefly clears the radiator when the door is closed.

Next image:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2027.0;attach=1662;image
You can barely see them (actually you can only see edge of one) past the blue-metallic sata cables way toward the front of the case there is a pair of 80x80x10mm fans between the lower hd cage and the front of the case.  This image also gives better shot of the 120mm fan that replaced the original mdd 120 mm fan. Far right side of image you can see the side of the 120mm-fan->radiator->120mm-fan sandwich.

In any of the images I included so far, no other fans have been net added to the case. I noted I was going to replace the factor 60x60mm fan that is normally mounted into the door itself (the one that lines up with the air inlet holes in the dvd/cd cage/mount when you close the door). I just got the slower/lower flow fan in yesterday and put it in Will still provide what I think is more then needed air for my burners that really never get hot enough to deserve their own fan (which is only reason I can see for the fan being there).


I am about to experiment with fitting a few 50x50 mm fans along the back end of the case on the non-door side of the case (where AC power connector for power supply is). This will provide a bit of stead airflow above/out the case by the AGP/PCI cards when the door is closed without having to use a pci slot for a "slot-cooler" type fan.


Hoping to do experiments with 50x50mm fans tonight/tomorrow.. Finish moding 3 ping fan connector to a 2 pin setup for the 60 mm fan in the door as well.   but I can take some more photos after (bit more detailed and will do some basic MSPAINT circle/arrows/comments/numbers to note the changes too. But really it is about the change to a micro atx power supply and from there the h20 cooling of the cpu. Those two alone I could probably unplug all other fans in the system and be fine and very quiet (would say quieter then what many would consider "average pc quiet" with the h20 cooling).

[Syntho]

I'm thinking replacing that original heatsink fan and the power supply alone would probably be good enough. The only thing I'm worried about is that if I get a power supply like you've got there, that more hot air will blow inside the case instead out the back of it. Maybe I can position it differently, or maybe add a smaller fan to blow air out the back.

As you mentioned, if you've got the water cooler cooling the CPU, I don't think you need the big 120mm heatsink fan since the two fans on the radiator seem like a replacement for it. Maybe take it out if you find it's cool enough and you want to see how much quieter it can get without it.

As for me, I'm gonna do the power supply + heatsink fan (already have a Silenx for the heatsink) and I HOPE that'll be good enough.

[Syntho]

^^^ this is the SilenX Ixtrema Pro IXP-76-18 120mm x 38mm Silent Fan that's in my MDD right now. The only noise I notice coming from it is the actual air that's being moved so I don't know how loud it actually is due to the power supply masking everything else. I imagine that with the case closed, it would probably be near silent.

[Syntho]

Ok, now this QS 2002 933 is a little different from the MDD. It looks like the power supply in it is the same size as a Micro ATX, so maybe switching it out will be easier. I also notice that huge fan underneath it and I guess that is for the big heatsink. I wonder if I could fit my Silenx in there.

I don't notice any other fans on the inside of it.

Are the guts of this incomplete? Seems like there's a chunk missing from the left of it where you could mount HDs or something.

[blemk]

Lower speed 120mm and even the copper heatsink sink in the mdd is ok, but going to be a bit toasty.. I got more splash heat soaking in the case using that setup then with the water cooling venting heat out directly.

Regarding the power supply and heat inside, depends on power supply.. MDD power supply was actually warn/hot to the touch on the inside of the case with stock noisy 60 mm fans.. Micro atx I got almost creates no heat at all in comparison and any heat there is will be vented out in space behind it (basically above pci cards).

The QS, last I knew, pretty much uses a power supply the size of a ATX (vs micro atx).  The micro atx is actually incredibly easy to fit and affix in the MDD case. I have an easier time getting it in and out of the case then the original MDD power supply.

BTW, besides power supply and noise, reason you want to go with a QS? (have a big single core, pre-MDD CPU upgrade laying around or something?)... If not, and heat/noise the only concern, I would take a 167 MHz bus MDD system over a QS any day once you get rid of the noise. Performance I have seen from the FSB makes me glad I didn't pickup any pre MDD PowerMac G4.

[supernova777]

I'm probably going to get a QS machine for a new Pro Tools rig.

PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA
my qs 933mhz i turned it on just yesterday to test the digi 001 asio drivers
and i kept thinking it wasnt even on..
its 100% silent compared to an mdd.. and thats STOCK with no modifications at all.
the single 933mhz + dual 1ghz could be the best machines for silence.

remember the digital audio g4's are basically the same as a qs. but with the older style case.
ultimately id love to have a cpu upgraded g4 digital audio one day. anything above Dual 1ghz would be fine.

i still hold the faith of finding better fans for my mdd's tho

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpFkxE9BjwA[/youtube]
there are better products out there if look

i think i will guy buy a few of these
http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_130&item_id=060185
fractal design R2 fans + compaer them to the other fans i got

[Syntho]

I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

[Protools5LEGuy]

its 100% silent compared to an mdd.. and thats STOCK with no modifications at all.
the single 933mhz + dual 1ghz could be the best machines for silence.

remember the digital audio g4's are basically the same as a qs. but with the older style case.
ultimately id love to have a cpu upgraded g4 digital audio one day. anything above Dual 1ghz would be fine.

My DA with QS'02 Dual GHz CPU is really silent. But I have modded it a little: I will try to explain what I did


Look at that picture and use your imagination. That black plastic thing that is on the right of the heatsink...I don't have it. I bought the CPU module and the heatsink but this black plastic cage for smaller fan not.

Instead of having small fans on the right of heatsink, I have a BIG fan on the left. A fan as big as the one in front of the PCIs.

That fan has to be cutted round on one of its corners to close the box. Has to be cutted carefully. My first attempt took me to a broken fan, so just that, cut it carefully Chris. That fan is held with just 2 screws.  The other 2 corners, one is missing because I cutted...

I also naked the modem conector and kept the inside of the modem on the box, in direct contact with the memories. No worry because that metal cage around that is outside the machine, just in case we found a way to use modem conectors works as MIDI network... It rendered on a Hole on the conectors side of the backside for the air to pass... 

The end of the CDbay, has a semicage with holes for the air... That thing is outside my box too. The bay is funtional (I have a hard drive under the CD too). You just need to take some tape to put the cables outside of the place where the big cpu fan will finish. In that way, the CPU fan will force refresh the PSU and CD-bay too! 

I have been working with this mod for more than 3 years now.

I needed to make a mod with the molex conectors to the wiring ot that fan. I use +12 and +5 to make it run at +7 volt so it runs at "less" RPM. That, added to the need of using a +12 volts wire to the QS CPUs to work on DAs I used some electric things like

to have more molex stuff. The first one I used finished toasted because of the heat after a year. Then I redid with new things as pictured and it is working perfectly to this date.

I guess this PSU is working perfectly because the system was never upgraded (DA 466 with ATI Rage 128 AGP and a maxtor 5400 rpm drive) until I get it for free in 2008. And that low-wattage use for the first years of the machine had "cooked" a lasting PSU. This PSU has never feed an ADC monitor.

I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

My MDD 866 with original unrevised AcBel 400W PSU is definetivelly louder than my DA. But I have the loudest MDD on forum... My silentest machine is my G3 B&W, even having a small fan at full throttle. When I use SCSI at 10000 rpm it is my loudest machine.

[supernova777]

I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

this i would presume is another case of someone mistaking the MDD for the Quicksilver.. its alot more common then u would think that people dont know which is which..
syntho. forget all of the coments.. and just know that the quicksiler is pretty much silent compared to the mdd, and requires no modification at all.
rest assured, i give u my word, there is no way that the noise is in anyway comparible to the mdd.
the mdd case is flawed re: air flow .. period. they tried to put too much in there.. the design of it is retarded really.. i mean look at it.

the original b&w g3 cases has better airflow.. space for air to move around ..they also had perforations all along the right side of the bottom of the case + a removable hard drive tray..
i have no idea why they wouldnt have kept that design throughout the entire series.. the airflow was better. the removable hard drive tray was cool aswell.
sucks that they didnt just keep that design for the rest of the g3/g4s


this image above shows the tray if u look closely..
jus behind the tray there were 3 lines of perforations allowing fresh air to be uptaked by the 120mm fan
which would then be exhausted out the back via the powersupply fan exhaust
so there was a good flow of air from bottom of the case.. being blown directly onto the pci cards + cpu
and then being sucked out the back of the psu and exhausted

the same principle is applied to the mdd with the air intake coming from the front i guess.. moving over the hard drives
to the cpu and around the cd drive bays and up to the wind tunnel top..  but it seems very tight + Constricted by comparison
thast for sure

if u ask me, the fans u choose to put in the mdd can make or break your modification, rendering your effort useless or achieving perfection
i say that coming from the experience of being happy with one of my mods, and unhappy with the other.. the only difference? the brand/model of fan


this must be diehards place

[supernova777]

http://www.coolerguys.com/60.html

we will have to rename thsi thread from water to air cooling 

this thread :https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2339022
mentions the stock specifications as:
Stock fans (2ea) 60x60x25mm specs:
+Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 - 5300rpm / 25CFM 38dB
+Delta AFB0612EH 60x60x25mm - 6800rpm / 38 CFM 47 dB

so whoever has a really loud mdd probably has the delta fans

heres a chart from manufacturer "Sunon"
we need to stay in 12 vdc product range...
here u can see a comprehensive breakdown of speed to CFM to noise

5200rpm / 27cfm / 36.5dba
4500rpm / 23.5cfm / 33.5dba
3800rpm / 19.3cfm / 29dba
3100rpm / 16cfm / 21dba

even the loudest fan by sunon is equal to the less noisey stock mdd fan
the real culprit of most noise polution on mdd is these delta fans with
6800rpm / 38cfm / 47dba

original sunon doc here: http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/DCFAN/MB6025_U.pdf

[supernova777]

ive decided to go with the fractal design R2 which claims 3000rpm / 20cfm / 17DBA which is a PWM fan
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/19346/fan-1205/Fractal_Design_R2_60mm_x_25mm_Silent_Series_60mm_Fan_-_3000_RPM_FD-FAN-SSR2-60.html?tl=g36c15s57#blank
compare those specs to the best case stock fan Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 - 5300rpm / 25CFM / 38dBa

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LBDbpNwlHc[/youtube]

now i just need to buy some type of pwm fancontroller to attach them to give me control over their speed
http://www.overclockers.com/vantec-nexus-fan-controller/
perhaps i could find one to fit in a 5.25" drive bay



is the folding mirror door able to be removed???
and replaced with this pwm controller?

more controllers : http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g34/c17/list/p1/Bay_Devices-Fan_Controllers.html

this one is perfect! with usb ports!
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/18020/bus-337/Akasa_3_Channel_Fan_Control_Junior_Dual_USB_-_35_Bay_-_Silver_AK-FC-06-SL.html?tl=g34c17

but its for 3.5" bay..

direct link for 5.25" controllers only : http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g34/c17/s286/list/p1/Bay_Devices-Fan_Controllers-525_Controllers-Page1.html

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9369/bus-200/Lamptron_20W_-_4_Channel_Aluminum_Rheobus_w_Blue_Backlit_LED_-_Silver_FC-4.html?tl=g34c17s286



i wonder if the R2 fan cord would be long enough to get its power from this sittin in the top 5.25" drive bay.. maybe i would have to make a hole for the cords to go thru to get to the control panel

[blemk]

we will have to rename thsi thread from water to air cooling 

Not only that, you are switching from MDD to QS topic.

Out of the box, can see QS as quieter. If you have an MDD I would still invest in it before the QS unless the processor for the MDD is very very much a lower clock speed. The MDD is a better machine once you get past the under designed cooling.

About the 60 mm fractal design fans (picked one up at some point and experimented with 50 mm model for the MDD). Not bad, they are pretty light on actual air they move though.

The fan controllers, unless you plan to be adjusting the speed all the time (assuming you think you can keep up with temperature changes by manually turning knobs), I generally don't use them or if I get one it is to manually set the speed once. In which case, I put it in the case tucked away and don't even make it visible on the outside of the machine.

[supernova777]

http://www.s155158671.websitehome.co.uk/watercoolyourmdd.html

check this link to get back to the original topic

[blemk]

Checked, and recall seeing it before. 

Back on a spree of things at work so Mac OS and classic Mac work came to a halt almost instantly. Should visit local hardware store to put together example of about $5 worth of random hardware that I used to mount the Corsair H80 block. Yet to pickup a H81 to try this with, but maybe within the next couple/few weeks.