Author Topic: MDD Water cooling  (Read 17253 times)

supernova777

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MDD Water cooling
« on: December 04, 2014, 05:32:19 AM »


who was the member who discussed this recently?

i think this would be of tremendous benefit to all of us MDD lovers
if we could get some more into + visual direction on how to go about
implementing water cooling.

http://aqua-mac.com/newsataqua-macaq.html

this page is the best thing to start with.. but.. i dont understand really what im looking at or how it works to attach this thing.. ???

http://www.s155158671.websitehome.co.uk/moremddcoolingmo.html

too bad theres no way to water cool the power supply..
as the power supply fans are the biggest problem
i need to find a better quality fan the ones i have are still too loud for my liking
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:07:07 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 01:07:36 AM »
My final fans are on the way (a few 50x50 and 60x60 mm fans, one of which is to get rid of that nasty dvd/cd-rom fan), but I plan to share images when done. If I could source enough of the random nuts/bolts/hardware I could piece together a means/kit of mounting a corsair h80 water cooling system quite easily to a MDD FW400/FW800 that would easily fit in the lower back section of the case (mine is already in there and working great). Corsair H80i might even work better (would look prettier at least)

In any case, I have had mine running under OS 9 with a Dual 1.42 running, without benefit of OS X reducing temps, for hours and hours straight. Very very quiet and very cool (not warm).

It's an investment, but get rid of the factory power supply unless you absolutely want ADP support (well, power for ADP video card anyway). Even in working condition, those factory power supplies must have hideous efficiency ratings with the heat they throw off. A nice modern 300/400/450 Micro ATX will fit beautifully in the MDD and clear a lot of space and reduce internal case temps quite a bit. If you get one like below, I can tell you the powersupply is likely to be the quietest component in the system (far quieter then either of the MDD G4 power supplies by far).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CP07PQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Above is what I went with, plus (since it was a big time saver if not $$$ saver) a ATX adapter from a guy on etsy.com (http://atxg4.com/).  Not sure I should share this as before I experimented with water cooling I ended up with two of the nice big copper fin and heat pipe apple heatsinks I may be interested in selling shortly due to how well the Corsair H80 is working.  ;D

This is first night in a while (again, as I seem to get only a night every so often to work on it and read/post about it/classic-macs on the web) I have gotten back to it like I keep wanting/trying to do.

One thing to note, don't hook up Corsair water coolers to standard 4 pin molex or sata power connectors and put your mac to sleep without significant testing.. Pump will stop running.. I got mine pretty much worked out, but I would avoid trying it unless you are adamant about getting sleep to work. This could be dealt with by a bit of a circuit to keep the water cooling pump and at least one 120 mm fan spinning a bit.

Anyway, figure I might have been one mentioning the water cooling in progress..... Will see how soon I want o share pics of it (last parts should be here right before or right after holiday). Will visit local hardware store first chance I get to see if I can get generic specs and/or part numbers for the few pieces of od hardware I used make it work.

Oh, last comment.. Biggie compared to other methods/solutions I have seen. No cutting of meta or plastic. I took out the little support brackets right below the power supply (just took the rivits out, but turns out I didn't need to.. ). So yeah, not metal or plastic cutting. Case looks unmodified inside and out.

Offline MacTron

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 05:41:49 AM »
The water cooling MDD is a very interesting topic. I'm specially interested in it, to enhance the cooling of some overclocked MDDs ...
So please, keep us informed of your progress in this subject ..
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 06:57:14 PM »
Will be post holiday before I get remaining fans and what not in for small remaining work, be gentle on it's appearance (loose cables are normally not loose or seen as some are not even plugged in right now).

(typing, and realize I forgot or don't know how to reference attached images so sorry please see file attached).

2-block.jpg and 1-overallf.jpg





Early fit info basically for you.. This is with a corsair H80. Top part of waterblock/pump/controls removed and internal 3 ping connectors (for power and controller) extended to put controller elsewhere. If you don't remove it, the block/pump/controller will be crushed by the radiator and the door won't close. The Corsair H80i's lower profile block should fit without modification, but you loose the simple 3 speed push botton control (only controlled by corsair usb link or whatever they call it). Disregard the zip ties around the for posts/mounting-pins/bolts. Could easily get a thin acrylic sheet with holes on top to deal with holding them straighter if needed, but really needed the water block fits very tight between the 1.25/1.33/1.42 dual processor 4 hole pattern around the dual cores. Note, this will not work for anything without that whole pattern on the cpu module (which means, pretty much dual processor modules only from what I have seen).

Control module is on top of 120 mm standard Corsair H80 radiator and 2 included 120 mm fans. 3 built in speed settings. Lowest easily keeps the dual 1.42 under the waterblock cold under max load. Control module could really be anywhere I guess. Works there in case I want to access it quick by opening the door.

"3-front facing.jpg" and "4-between 120 and 120.jpg"






Quick look of radiator spacing and replacement Cooler Master 120 mm fan (optional, provides a bit steadier fan speed from the coolermaster fans on the radiator as it helps provide (in combo with a pair of 80x80x10 mm fans way up front in front of drive cage) a nice quiet steady flow of air. Had wired them into the onboard fan header (may return there if the motherboard speeds up the replacement 60mm fan I have on the way for the dvd/cd drive too much with no load on the normal 120 mm cpu fan header). But at max rpm of 2000 RPM the cooler master 120 mm fan is nice and quiet. Video card is easily louder yet.

"2-upper psu area.jpg" and "5-2.5hdmount.jpg"





3m 2 side taped a very simple 2.5 dual drive mount to the top of the cd/dvd sub-chassis. Comes out with the cd/dvd chassis without interference. I wanted a couple more drive bays back from loss due to radiator position. Earlier images, you will see similar adaptation to the original 3.5 mount brack under the cd/dvd sub-chassis. Went with nice 2.5 inch 7200 RPM sata drives and 2.5 inch sata ssds. Small size of modern mechanicals might as well be taken advantage of as well right? Well.. I don't need any super 1tb/2tb/3tb/4tb/6tb range 3.5 inch drives right now anyway. But they would fit in lower bays if needed.

Other notable points in images, the FSP 450 watt micro atx power supply and simple little mod of a power cord (cut off, shortended and soldered to a simple socket). Power supply is 3m double side taped in. It will come off any day I want it off hard enough, but it isn't coming loose and fits perfectly in the depth of the original power supply (actually, it is a little thinner). Fan in it is controlled by PSU. 4 drives, Geforce 4 TI4600 or Geforce 7800 C (one or other, but either), water cooling, 2x burners, all fans.... the Fan barely turns on. Well over need of hardware in the mac, but it allows the power supply to run at lower output levels (less heat, less to cool). Silverstone makes a version of almost identical powersupply (same oem from what I have read), but atx 24 pin cable is quite a bit shorter and will make it tricky to reach the motherboard with or without your own custom adapter.

Little support bracket is taken out under power supply, but was not needed to fit anything in the case (does clear a spot for the h20 cooler controls though  :)).


So..

Parts list minus hardware to mount water block/pump.

Corsair H80 water cooler all in one kit. (you find via google, not H80i will also likely be fine)

ATX adapter from: http://atxg4.com/mdd.html   Note, I added one more pin so onboard firewire would be powered (vs unpowered and requiring external power for firewire devices.. wire is one left out by most people as it is for 25v normally used for Apple ADC).

450 watt FSP Micro ATX power supply (really, any micro atx should fit wonderfully.. take your pic but remember it is a long way to reach the motherboard).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CP07PQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

IEC 60320 C14 Socket (for power supply)
There are several sources/brands for this type of part. This one comes with screws etc that could be used to affix this after simply sliding it in from the back of the MDD G4 case. I did that and essentially epoxied (high temp hot glue) on the inside to hold it in when you pull the external power cable out of the socket. Design of socket makes it so you can't push it into the case. Make sure you are comfortable with soldering/electronics if you do this approach as I do not support/suggest-this/etc (don't take my word on this.. went to school for electrnonics amongst other things but I am not saying this as certified electrician or anything of that sort. That is my public statement for today on this.).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00917Z96S/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

If you don't want to extend the internal connections in the water-block/pump/control setup.. You can get a 2 pin and a 3 pin fan extension cable from various sources.



I know, I left out mounting method. Will see if I can pick up a second set of misc bolts, take pics and show I I crafted a mounting method/clamp for this as soon as I can get to hardware store and commit to building the second setup like this for the FW800 (currently this is all in my FW400 board/case combo).


« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 07:40:31 PM by MacTron »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 07:28:39 PM »
Oh, and before someone asks.. Nothing special done with original heatsink to hold the cpu module in there. Left the plastic bracket in, and snapped in the module socket. it has never come close to pulling out even as I open and close the side panel with the water-block/pump/hoses attached. If I pull on it from the edge close to the back plate (usb connectors/etc) I can disconnect the cpu easily enough. Otherwise, it isn't coming off on it's own.

Offline custos

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 02:12:45 PM »
Just put the MDD inside a mini fridge.. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgT_zcsrCj0
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Offline Metrophage

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 02:49:30 PM »
Just put the MDD inside a mini fridge.. lol

This may or not be joke, but there are some things which can go drastically wrong with chilling a computer directly in a fridge or freezer. Differences in temperature can cause condensation on the board and components, which would be not-so-good. Also, as it starts to freeze, not only mechanical things such as rotational media freeze, chemical reactions such as capacitors lose their effectiveness.

For total system immersion cooling, I would sooner consider one of those mineral oil baths. The trick then is breaking out your connectors so that they aren't in the oil.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 02:57:03 PM »
Lol.. Fridge.. Yeah, I have worked with peltier (TEC) and refrigerant cooling of CPUs in years long past..  Temperature extremes have to be dealt with very carefully when by electronics.

The water cooling, discounting my mounting and little bit of modification to the stock H80 kit, ran me all of $50 (got the refurbed Corsair H80 cheap). The rest.. Well. Going for PowerMac G4 upgraded with modern hardware options.. SATA as much as possible (even cd/dvd) and more so the power supply and cooling. I have a nice little corsair h60 (much smaller radiator) bound for either the GF4 TI4600 or the 7800 OC to keep that quiet.. Think I have enough space inside that little MDD case yet to do it too.  ;D So I don't see it as extreme at all.  ;)

Offline custos

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 04:07:59 PM »
It was a joke, :P But it can be done. Not really worth the effort though.

I like the mineral oil Idea. Seems easy an cheap. Plus it looks cool too. drawback is its too much of a mess if anything needs serviced.
"Things don't have to change the world to be important." -Steve Jobs

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2014, 08:13:05 PM »
How much more quiet is the MDD after applying all of that?

I'm in the predicament that I simply can't extend all of the cables and move the powermac out of the room since I have a Pro Tools rig that comes with a proprietary 12-15ft cable and it can NOT be extended.

I'm looking into getting a 2002 QS 933 machine and I'd love to silence it. I didn't realize you could put in just any ol' power supply like that.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2014, 08:24:41 PM »
Oh crap... I just read that using the power supply adapter disables the ADC thing. I use an Nvidia card with a DVI and an ADC port. I actually don't use Apple displays, I have an ADC-DVI adapter so I can connect 2x regular DVI monitors. I'm not sure if that means that the ADC port won't work at all or what, but it looks like I'll need a new Nvidia card with 2x DVI outs. I forget which cards for Powermacs have that.

My current MDD is way too loud. There's this weird whirring noise and I have no idea where it comes from, but it's not the power supply or the big fan pointing on the DVD drives since I replaced all of those already. My video card has no fans either, so the noise is probably either something internal on the power supply or it's the CPU heatsink fan.

I imagine if I can get the power supply replaced and get those CPU fans removed and replace with something, the QS or MDD would be just about dead silent.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 08:36:08 PM »
Also, is that power supply you posted very thick? I'm afraid the case won't close since the Pro Tools cards would hit the power supply when closing it up. It's already a really tight fit so if that power supply is any thicker than the one in there I may have an issue.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 08:55:21 PM »
3 posts 3 answers:

1. Quieter, much much quieter. All the threads and sites I have seen, it is a toss up as to what to target first.. But to me, that power supply has got to go. Replace the fans, but that thing puts off so much heat with stock fans I don't think I would really recommend decreasing airflow in it. If you decrease airflow that much, I would guess it is only going to help hasten the death of a MDD power supply that was likely already destined for a short life.  Which leads to a replacing it vs modifying stock.. I went 450 watt, but there are cheaper 400 and 350 (maybe even 300) that would be far more efficient/cooler and still be plenty for what you could probably be running inside a MDD G4..  . Next, the 60 mm side fan is noisy as can be (way to high rpm for a 60 mm to ever be quiet), if you have modern burners I can not see one or even two optical drivers deserving that kind of airflow. The 120 MM fan for the cpu is sill pretty loud with the copper heat pipe heatsink. Dual, or in my case 3x, 120 mm thinner (standard thickness for 120) fans with that big radiator does a lot.

2. Haven't read far enough into it as I didn't have an ADC card or displays I wanted to use (video card  I intentionally went out looking for non-adc).. Biggie with that ADC supply line, it provides 25v DC.. Maybe someone here can confirm, but I would guess that 25v is not used by any ADC card directly but instead just passes it through to the pins on the ADC display cable to power the ADC display you would normally be attaching. Given I have seen ADC to DVI adapters and a goofy ADC to DVI+ADC Power injector cable to provide power to ADC displays without an ADC card....... well... I am guessing you could plug the ADC card in an it might work fine as long as you are not expecting an ADC monitor to work.

2/3. The power supply, really any micro atx as the thickness (from back/far side panel towards forward/close) is a standard defined in micro atx. And it is thinner, just slightly, than an a standard MDD power supply so you should not have any issues is everything fits with a stock MDD power supply.


Can tell you, if you want to go all out, get another 120 MM x 120 MM x 40 mm (or so thickness) radiator to add to the cooling loop and you could really slow the fan down I think (it already is really slow, if I had an H80i vs H80 I would plug in the the usb interface to a PC to monitor the fan speed).

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2014, 09:10:49 PM »
I just put my ear to the MDD and it seems that about 80% of the noise is coming from the power supply, and that's even after I replaced the fans in it.

I got confused for a second about which fan does what, but my MDD is open at the moment and I'm seeing two fans: a giant one that's placed right behind the DVD drive (looks like it cools the heatsink?) and another, small and thin fan that's on the side door that opens. I think that's probably for the DVD drive.

I replaced that big fan sitting behind the DVD drive with something similar to this:



^^ that one is probably as quiet as it's gonna get, so next up is to get that power supply replaced.

I need to re-read this thread to see about that one that's built into the door...

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2014, 09:28:33 PM »
one on the side you wont be able to hear much until the 60mm in the psu is gone.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 03:49:30 AM »
syntho u would be better off trying different fans inside the powersupply
those ones are the ones that are the culprit

the problem is if u use any fans close to the CFM amount that was there originally
it will always be too loud.. so u have to take it down to around 20 cfm

http://g4chronicles.blogspot.ca/2006/08/5-replacing-psu-fans.html
Quote
According to Bits and Pieces, the stock fans within the PSU of the June 2003 MDD are Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 60 x 60 x 25mm fans, running at 5300rpm, with 25CFM @ 38dB. Compare this with the original PSU fans in the first revision of the MDD: Delta AFB0612EH at 6800 rpm with 38 CFM @ 47 dBA

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835191005
16 dba is great but 18 cfm is a bit too low and would make diehard have a heartattackk..
so what is reccommended (by me?) is keeping the cfm at least up to 25 CFM
and finding a fan that is in the range of 25-30dba
thats the real challege. regarding finding the right replacement 60mm fans.



just found a post by a guy saying he was happy with the combo of thruput + noise  with these:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6650/fan-398/Aluminum_60mm_Fan.html?tl=g36c15s57

the best thing to do to deal with this issue is for everyone whos concerned to post links of different fan types with prices + availability so we might 'find the perfect fan' it needs to be at least 25 CFM, and 30DBA or lower.. high thruput of air.. with low noise (duh!)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:04:47 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 03:57:56 AM »
I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 04:05:00 AM »
I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

yes the fans u chose to use suck.
err they blow.. (no pun intended - LOL!)

its not just the fan, its the 'wind tunnel' design of the power supply it makes the fans even louder then they are when u power them up uninstalled. whatever fan u put in there will be louder then it actually is when put into that position which is why u need to find the right combijnation of noise/airflow..

a really intelligent person would find a way to regulate the voltage to the fans to
be able to have speed control wired to an external dial control. this would give u complete control over the volume instead of having to find a specific fan that just happens to operate at the desired noise level..



http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12489/bus-249/Sunbeam_20W_Rheosmart_PCI_Slot_Smart_Fan_Controller_-_PL-RS-PCI.html?tl=g34c17s1375

i wonder if its possible to somehow attach this fan controller bracket to another card that has no peripheral connection (such as a UAD-1 or internal sata pci)
as to not require wasting a pci slot in your config 

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 04:32:22 AM »
No, they don't. The fans I replaced them with are much better. There's some kind of weird whirring noise or something going on with the power supply so that's why I want to replace it. I'd rather take that route than to replace them again.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 06:40:37 AM by Syntho »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 06:23:29 AM »
What was said above about the power supply itself is partially true. Size/dimension of powersuppy, plus biggie is size of the fans. Expecting any real airflox out of a something smaller then 80 mm fan you should also expect audible noise. In particular, of a certain frequency that is likely to be heard over a lot of other sounds/noise.

More fan you can get to bigger blade sizes moving slower, ie 80mm or better 120 mm, better the machine will sound. Besides the power supply being cooler in general (fan not moving even), it is the reason I wanted a ATX (usually 80 mm fan at smallest, 120 mm fan common these days) or micro atx. To completely eliminate the design/shape of the power supply that necessitated the choice of original 60 mm fan or "quieter" (but still 60 mm) fan that still had a distinct sound to it.
 

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2014, 06:40:01 AM »
I remember posting this about a year ago but no one knew what I was talking about: why is it that when I click down with my mouse, the pitch of the whirring noise coming from my MDD changes? It goes down in pitch.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2014, 02:02:25 PM »
I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

you may have thought u swapped them them for decent-enuff fans but i guarantee that your effort is best placed finding better replacements
i have come to that conclusion for my own fans for one of my mdds ...

"There wasnt much of a difference" that says it all.. re-read what u wrote ...... !

heres the thing, ive used different fans in both of my mdds, one is whisper quiet (well.. its no louder than a normal pc) + the other is still kind of noisy (to the point that i purposely shut it down to get rid of the noise) because the fans i used to replace in that one kind of sucked (hah.. no pun intended) -- the 60x60x25mm fans might loook the same but they differ greatly in audible noise + airflow.

in my quiet mdd, the black fans that i got.. i got them from a small business in my area that had definately taken them out of some other computers they were junking... they werent new.. and i have no idea what make + model they are.. otherwise id be detailing that for your benefit!

if your mdd is still noisey... the fans in your powersupply are to blame.. 100% and your replacement effort didnt do the job because the ones u replaced the originals with are still too freaking loud. its a great satisfaction to have a whisper quiet mdd.. its worth spending 20-30$ on fixing. but the problem is,
which brand + model of fans to use? it could get expensive if u are buying pairs of 60x60x25mm fans that still arent fixing the noise problem.
this is why i had originally asked people to share which fans they are happy with if they are still available for order from some place so other people can achieve the same satisfaction of less noise.

my mdd that is noisey.. i used fans i bought from ebay.. probably from taiwan or china or something.. and they suck!!! they were like 2$ each or somethng i guess u get what u pay for..  one of them broke as i was installing it somehow too but i was ok because i ordered 4 of them expecting as much
its better to go to a specialized american/canadian retail/e-shop that stocks alot of cooling gear. (such as frozen cpu)
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g36/c15/s57/list/p1/Fans-12_Volt_Fans-60mm_x_25mm_Fans-Page1.html

20CFM 17DBA >> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/19346/fan-1205/Fractal_Design_R2_60mm_x_25mm_Silent_Series_60mm_Fan_-_3000_RPM_FD-FAN-SSR2-60.html?tl=g36c15s57

22CFM 30DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/10638/fan-693/Akasa_60mm_x_25mm_Auto_Thermal_Fan_-_1500_-_4500_RPM_25C_-_45C_-_AK-192BKT-B.html?tl=g36c15s57#blank

24 CFM, 15DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/9352/fan-585/Noiseblocker_NB-BlackSilentFan_XR2_60mmx25mm_Ultra_Quiet_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_15_dBA.html?tl=g36c15s57

20CFM 27DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/6383/fan-359/FrozenCPU_60mm_x_25mm_DC_Fan_DFC602512H.html?tl=g36c15s57

23CFM 32DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/2430/fan-118/Evercool_60mm_4_LED_Aluminum_Fan_-_Multicolor.html?tl=g36c15s57

23CFM 32DBA >> www.frozencpu.com/products/2452/fan-147/Evercool_60mm_4_LED_Aluminum_Fan_-_Blue.html?tl=g36c15s57

after a quick comparison the quoted specs (true or not) look best on these two models.. the fractal design + noiseblocker
noise blocker being a better choice because u dont want to go down too far in cfm. the originals were what.. 40cfm?
plus theres two of them side by side... so 17 + 17 = 34dba . which is a helluva lot better then 35+35 = 70dba which is prob what you are hearing now

WAIT i made a mistake that noiseblocker fan is only 14CFM!!! and not suitable
but yea, review specs on your own.. aim for 25CFM + under 25 DBA if possible



« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 02:31:23 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2014, 07:11:07 PM »
I'm switching the power supply.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2014, 07:50:58 PM »
I'm switching the power supply.

If you plan to keep the MDD, would recommend it. The ATX adapter is a bit of an investment in $$$ and/or time, but if you plan to keep the mdd going a ATX(or micro atx) power supply is an easy choice. Once you have adapter purchased/made, take your pick of atx power supply whenever you need one and atx power supply and be recycled on a standard pc later (worst case). If you mod atx power supply (changing pin out without a nice plug and play adapter), that is also an option but you will be undoing your mod if you ever want to use that power supply in something else.

If the MDD power supply was somehow using 80 MM or above fans, this would be an easy upgrade. but 60 mm fans with any decent amount of cfm are going to be ear bleeders when you factor in frequency and amplitude of the noise.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2014, 07:57:48 PM »
Actually my MDD has always given me problems since over a year ago so I'm probably going to get a QS machine for a new Pro Tools rig. The MDD has had hardware trouble since the beginning so I think I'll retire her for good and use her for emergencies only.

I'm going to get a QS first and see what it's like, then switch out the main big fan with the one in my MDD. After that I'll see about switching out the power supply altogether with that adapter you posted a link to.

I wonder if that would be enough to get it about as quiet as it's gonna get. The MDD has that little fan on the door but I'm not sure about what else is in the QS.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2014, 08:04:54 PM »
And by the way, let me clear something up about your MDD pics.

The fan on the left which is on the side of that additional HD bay - that one seems like it's for blowing on the heatsink (but you've removed it).

The very small thin fan on the door itself looks like it's for blowing on the additional HD bay.

You seem to have added a two-fan contraption which looks like it's blowing air out the back of the case,

and you also seem to have placed a smaller fan on top of that two-fan setup which blows directly on the CPU.

Is that correct?

If I can switch out the power supply, the only other fan I'll replace is the one that I said looks like is blowing on the heatsink. I wonder if that will be enough to cool the QS/MDD as much as I need to. It seems like adding more fans would make it more loud which is what I'm trying to avoid. If I get a power supply like you posted, the air from it would be blowing into the case now though, so maybe an additional case fan at the back would be necessary.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 11:16:58 PM »
K.. About images an fans.

Start with -> http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2027.0;attach=1660;image

Top to bottom of image. Black box up top with fan facing you as you lock at image is power supply.
Bottom right corner of power supply leads to control interface for the Corsair H80 (normally on cpu/waterblock/pump, but I extended cables so I could move it remotely).
That control module is on top of 120mmx120mmx40mm (approx. 40mm) radiator for watercooling with 120x120mm fan on each side of radiator sucking/blowing air from inside case to back (through original mdd case vent holes in back when door is closed).
Little lower to the left, I replaced the original 120 pabst/delta fan with a more moderate 120 mm fan that maxes out at approx. 2000 rpm (probably not needed with 2x 120mm fans around the radiator).
Final black colored mass in image is water-block/pump on top of cpu which just barefly clears the radiator when the door is closed.

Next image:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2027.0;attach=1662;image
You can barely see them (actually you can only see edge of one) past the blue-metallic sata cables way toward the front of the case there is a pair of 80x80x10mm fans between the lower hd cage and the front of the case.  This image also gives better shot of the 120mm fan that replaced the original mdd 120 mm fan. Far right side of image you can see the side of the 120mm-fan->radiator->120mm-fan sandwich.

In any of the images I included so far, no other fans have been net added to the case. I noted I was going to replace the factor 60x60mm fan that is normally mounted into the door itself (the one that lines up with the air inlet holes in the dvd/cd cage/mount when you close the door). I just got the slower/lower flow fan in yesterday and put it in Will still provide what I think is more then needed air for my burners that really never get hot enough to deserve their own fan (which is only reason I can see for the fan being there).


I am about to experiment with fitting a few 50x50 mm fans along the back end of the case on the non-door side of the case (where AC power connector for power supply is). This will provide a bit of stead airflow above/out the case by the AGP/PCI cards when the door is closed without having to use a pci slot for a "slot-cooler" type fan.


Hoping to do experiments with 50x50mm fans tonight/tomorrow.. Finish moding 3 ping fan connector to a 2 pin setup for the 60 mm fan in the door as well.   but I can take some more photos after (bit more detailed and will do some basic MSPAINT circle/arrows/comments/numbers to note the changes too. But really it is about the change to a micro atx power supply and from there the h20 cooling of the cpu. Those two alone I could probably unplug all other fans in the system and be fine and very quiet (would say quieter then what many would consider "average pc quiet" with the h20 cooling).

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 11:47:18 PM »
I'm thinking replacing that original heatsink fan and the power supply alone would probably be good enough. The only thing I'm worried about is that if I get a power supply like you've got there, that more hot air will blow inside the case instead out the back of it. Maybe I can position it differently, or maybe add a smaller fan to blow air out the back.

As you mentioned, if you've got the water cooler cooling the CPU, I don't think you need the big 120mm heatsink fan since the two fans on the radiator seem like a replacement for it. Maybe take it out if you find it's cool enough and you want to see how much quieter it can get without it.

As for me, I'm gonna do the power supply + heatsink fan (already have a Silenx for the heatsink) and I HOPE that'll be good enough.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 11:52:39 PM »


^^^ this is the SilenX Ixtrema Pro IXP-76-18 120mm x 38mm Silent Fan that's in my MDD right now. The only noise I notice coming from it is the actual air that's being moved so I don't know how loud it actually is due to the power supply masking everything else. I imagine that with the case closed, it would probably be near silent.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 11:57:55 PM »


Ok, now this QS 2002 933 is a little different from the MDD. It looks like the power supply in it is the same size as a Micro ATX, so maybe switching it out will be easier. I also notice that huge fan underneath it and I guess that is for the big heatsink. I wonder if I could fit my Silenx in there.

I don't notice any other fans on the inside of it.

Are the guts of this incomplete? Seems like there's a chunk missing from the left of it where you could mount HDs or something.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2014, 01:50:24 AM »
Lower speed 120mm and even the copper heatsink sink in the mdd is ok, but going to be a bit toasty.. I got more splash heat soaking in the case using that setup then with the water cooling venting heat out directly.

Regarding the power supply and heat inside, depends on power supply.. MDD power supply was actually warn/hot to the touch on the inside of the case with stock noisy 60 mm fans.. Micro atx I got almost creates no heat at all in comparison and any heat there is will be vented out in space behind it (basically above pci cards).

The QS, last I knew, pretty much uses a power supply the size of a ATX (vs micro atx).  The micro atx is actually incredibly easy to fit and affix in the MDD case. I have an easier time getting it in and out of the case then the original MDD power supply.

BTW, besides power supply and noise, reason you want to go with a QS? (have a big single core, pre-MDD CPU upgrade laying around or something?)... If not, and heat/noise the only concern, I would take a 167 MHz bus MDD system over a QS any day once you get rid of the noise. Performance I have seen from the FSB makes me glad I didn't pickup any pre MDD PowerMac G4.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2015, 09:32:37 AM »
I'm probably going to get a QS machine for a new Pro Tools rig.

PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA
my qs 933mhz i turned it on just yesterday to test the digi 001 asio drivers
and i kept thinking it wasnt even on..
its 100% silent compared to an mdd.. and thats STOCK with no modifications at all.
the single 933mhz + dual 1ghz could be the best machines for silence.

remember the digital audio g4's are basically the same as a qs. but with the older style case.
ultimately id love to have a cpu upgraded g4 digital audio one day. anything above Dual 1ghz would be fine.

i still hold the faith of finding better fans for my mdd's tho

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpFkxE9BjwA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpFkxE9BjwA</a>
there are better products out there if look

i think i will guy buy a few of these
http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_130&item_id=060185
fractal design R2 fans + compaer them to the other fans i got
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 09:54:52 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2015, 09:50:54 AM »
I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2015, 10:56:19 AM »

its 100% silent compared to an mdd.. and thats STOCK with no modifications at all.
the single 933mhz + dual 1ghz could be the best machines for silence.

remember the digital audio g4's are basically the same as a qs. but with the older style case.
ultimately id love to have a cpu upgraded g4 digital audio one day. anything above Dual 1ghz would be fine.


My DA with QS'02 Dual GHz CPU is really silent. But I have modded it a little: I will try to explain what I did


Look at that picture and use your imagination. That black plastic thing that is on the right of the heatsink...I don't have it. I bought the CPU module and the heatsink but this black plastic cage for smaller fan not.

Instead of having small fans on the right of heatsink, I have a BIG fan on the left. A fan as big as the one in front of the PCIs.

That fan has to be cutted round on one of its corners to close the box. Has to be cutted carefully. My first attempt took me to a broken fan, so just that, cut it carefully Chris. That fan is held with just 2 screws.  The other 2 corners, one is missing because I cutted...

I also naked the modem conector and kept the inside of the modem on the box, in direct contact with the memories. No worry because that metal cage around that is outside the machine, just in case we found a way to use modem conectors works as MIDI network... It rendered on a Hole on the conectors side of the backside for the air to pass...  ;)

The end of the CDbay, has a semicage with holes for the air... That thing is outside my box too. The bay is funtional (I have a hard drive under the CD too). You just need to take some tape to put the cables outside of the place where the big cpu fan will finish. In that way, the CPU fan will force refresh the PSU and CD-bay too! 

I have been working with this mod for more than 3 years now.

I needed to make a mod with the molex conectors to the wiring ot that fan. I use +12 and +5 to make it run at +7 volt so it runs at "less" RPM. That, added to the need of using a +12 volts wire to the QS CPUs to work on DAs I used some electric things like

to have more molex stuff. The first one I used finished toasted because of the heat after a year. Then I redid with new things as pictured and it is working perfectly to this date.

I guess this PSU is working perfectly because the system was never upgraded (DA 466 with ATI Rage 128 AGP and a maxtor 5400 rpm drive) until I get it for free in 2008. And that low-wattage use for the first years of the machine had "cooked" a lasting PSU. This PSU has never feed an ADC monitor.

I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

My MDD 866 with original unrevised AcBel 400W PSU is definetivelly louder than my DA. But I have the loudest MDD on forum... My silentest machine is my G3 B&W, even having a small fan at full throttle. When I use SCSI at 10000 rpm it is my loudest machine.
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2015, 11:12:57 AM »
I've heard some say the QS is the LOUDEST machine they've ever heard, while others say they can barely hear it. Maybe the early QS machines and the DP models are loud and the 2002 933 is  different?

this i would presume is another case of someone mistaking the MDD for the Quicksilver.. its alot more common then u would think that people dont know which is which..
syntho. forget all of the coments.. and just know that the quicksiler is pretty much silent compared to the mdd, and requires no modification at all.
rest assured, i give u my word, there is no way that the noise is in anyway comparible to the mdd.
the mdd case is flawed re: air flow .. period. they tried to put too much in there.. the design of it is retarded really.. i mean look at it.

the original b&w g3 cases has better airflow.. space for air to move around ..they also had perforations all along the right side of the bottom of the case + a removable hard drive tray..
i have no idea why they wouldnt have kept that design throughout the entire series.. the airflow was better. the removable hard drive tray was cool aswell.
sucks that they didnt just keep that design for the rest of the g3/g4s


this image above shows the tray if u look closely..
jus behind the tray there were 3 lines of perforations allowing fresh air to be uptaked by the 120mm fan
which would then be exhausted out the back via the powersupply fan exhaust
so there was a good flow of air from bottom of the case.. being blown directly onto the pci cards + cpu
and then being sucked out the back of the psu and exhausted

the same principle is applied to the mdd with the air intake coming from the front i guess.. moving over the hard drives
to the cpu and around the cd drive bays and up to the wind tunnel top..  but it seems very tight + Constricted by comparison
thast for sure

if u ask me, the fans u choose to put in the mdd can make or break your modification, rendering your effort useless or achieving perfection ;D
i say that coming from the experience of being happy with one of my mods, and unhappy with the other.. the only difference? the brand/model of fan


this must be diehards place
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 11:29:17 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2015, 11:40:22 AM »
http://www.coolerguys.com/60.html

we will have to rename thsi thread from water to air cooling  8)

this thread :https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2339022
mentions the stock specifications as:
Stock fans (2ea) 60x60x25mm specs:
+Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 - 5300rpm / 25CFM 38dB
+Delta AFB0612EH 60x60x25mm - 6800rpm / 38 CFM 47 dB

so whoever has a really loud mdd probably has the delta fans

heres a chart from manufacturer "Sunon"
we need to stay in 12 vdc product range...
here u can see a comprehensive breakdown of speed to CFM to noise

5200rpm / 27cfm / 36.5dba
4500rpm / 23.5cfm / 33.5dba
3800rpm / 19.3cfm / 29dba
3100rpm / 16cfm / 21dba

even the loudest fan by sunon is equal to the less noisey stock mdd fan
the real culprit of most noise polution on mdd is these delta fans with
6800rpm / 38cfm / 47dba

original sunon doc here: http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/DCFAN/MB6025_U.pdf

« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 11:55:13 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2015, 11:59:25 AM »
ive decided to go with the fractal design R2 which claims 3000rpm / 20cfm / 17DBA which is a PWM fan
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/19346/fan-1205/Fractal_Design_R2_60mm_x_25mm_Silent_Series_60mm_Fan_-_3000_RPM_FD-FAN-SSR2-60.html?tl=g36c15s57#blank
compare those specs to the best case stock fan Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 - 5300rpm / 25CFM / 38dBa

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LBDbpNwlHc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LBDbpNwlHc</a>

now i just need to buy some type of pwm fancontroller to attach them to give me control over their speed
http://www.overclockers.com/vantec-nexus-fan-controller/
perhaps i could find one to fit in a 5.25" drive bay



is the folding mirror door able to be removed???
and replaced with this pwm controller?

more controllers : http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g34/c17/list/p1/Bay_Devices-Fan_Controllers.html

this one is perfect! with usb ports!
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/18020/bus-337/Akasa_3_Channel_Fan_Control_Junior_Dual_USB_-_35_Bay_-_Silver_AK-FC-06-SL.html?tl=g34c17

but its for 3.5" bay..:(

direct link for 5.25" controllers only : http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g34/c17/s286/list/p1/Bay_Devices-Fan_Controllers-525_Controllers-Page1.html

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9369/bus-200/Lamptron_20W_-_4_Channel_Aluminum_Rheobus_w_Blue_Backlit_LED_-_Silver_FC-4.html?tl=g34c17s286



i wonder if the R2 fan cord would be long enough to get its power from this sittin in the top 5.25" drive bay.. maybe i would have to make a hole for the cords to go thru to get to the control panel
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 12:45:40 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2015, 01:23:57 PM »

we will have to rename thsi thread from water to air cooling  8)


Not only that, you are switching from MDD to QS topic.

Out of the box, can see QS as quieter. If you have an MDD I would still invest in it before the QS unless the processor for the MDD is very very much a lower clock speed. The MDD is a better machine once you get past the under designed cooling.

About the 60 mm fractal design fans (picked one up at some point and experimented with 50 mm model for the MDD). Not bad, they are pretty light on actual air they move though.

The fan controllers, unless you plan to be adjusting the speed all the time (assuming you think you can keep up with temperature changes by manually turning knobs), I generally don't use them or if I get one it is to manually set the speed once. In which case, I put it in the case tucked away and don't even make it visible on the outside of the machine.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2015, 10:21:47 AM »
http://www.s155158671.websitehome.co.uk/watercoolyourmdd.html

check this link to get back to the original topic

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2015, 07:52:02 PM »
Checked, and recall seeing it before.  ::)

Back on a spree of things at work so Mac OS and classic Mac work came to a halt almost instantly. Should visit local hardware store to put together example of about $5 worth of random hardware that I used to mount the Corsair H80 block. Yet to pickup a H81 to try this with, but maybe within the next couple/few weeks.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2015, 02:00:34 AM »
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4FT2332201&cm_re=fractal_design_r2_60mm-_-9SIA4FT2332201-_-Product

gonna order 4 of these badboys to redo my psu fans on both my mdd's ;D
pretty sure im gonna need a PWM controller of some sort to plug them into like i said before
rather then splicing the cables

i think this pwm controller will fit thru the holes of the mdd cd drive
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/7618/bus-144/Bitspower_XPIII_525_HDD_Status_Display_Fan_Control_Panel_-_Silver_w_Blue_LED.html?tl=g34c17s286#blank
kind of hard to tell from looking at it

need to find one with pushbuttons that dont stick out or sliders
then again i guess i could just mount it a bit farther back so the door can still close!! problem solved!

this thing would be a perfect fit:
http://www.bitfenix.com/global/en/products/accessories/recon

im assuming thats some type of touch screen

imagine seeing that behind your mirror doors:)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 03:25:15 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2015, 03:01:58 AM »
found the service manual for the mdd!
maybe this can shed some light on whether or not theres a way to remove the mirror door on one of the 5.25 bays

Offline juansolo

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2015, 10:56:08 AM »
I stumbled upon this site when I was searching for ways to once again silence an MDD (I've been acquiring old Macs of late... because I can). Sadly mourning the passing of Verax who made a magnificent temp controlled custom fan set for an MDD, if very expensive. So I've been looking for other options.

Anyhow... I also water cooled my original MDD back in the day and thought you might be interested. Indeed I restored those sections back to my website even though the info is quite out of date now. But still, as I say, you might be interested. For what it's worth. I got it to the point that the HDD was the loudest thing in it ;)

Offline MacTron

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2015, 01:37:06 PM »
Good work. Especially on to make the CPU bracket. But I don't like the idea of the the external refrigerator.
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2015, 08:15:41 PM »
looks clean! great job!  8)

Offline DieHard

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2015, 11:11:10 PM »
Awesome job Juansolo ! A sweet Mod :)

NOTE TO OTHERS: As a side note, I have every repair manual for every G3/G4 if one is needed, if you cannot find it on the web, then PM me... these are very helpful in proper dis-assembly for modding.


« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 08:32:37 AM by DieHard »

Offline juansolo

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2015, 03:30:15 AM »
Good work. Especially on to make the CPU bracket. But I don't like the idea of the the external refrigerator.

I was struggling with finding a way of doing it internally at the time in all honesty. The big tower seemed a neat solution. The beauty of it was that you could still get in and out of there no trouble and the whole machine could be reverted back to normal. Well normal-ish. Which it was when I sold it. The big downside of course was moving it. As you couldn't really without draining and disconnecting it first.

Offline madalynmcworm

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2016, 09:42:29 AM »
Swapping out the PSU for an ATX simply disables the ADC on a video card or it disables the entire card if it has ADC on it?