Author Topic: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power  (Read 22534 times)

Offline Syntho

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Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« on: August 27, 2014, 10:14:33 PM »
I'm having a slight issue with the termination I think. I removed the internal SCSI HD completely and I'm running on an SSD. Currently my setup is as follows:

CD - ID3 Terminated

CD - ID4 unterminated

Zip - ID5 Terminated

The SCSI HD was terminated but since I took it out I'm getting CDROM freezes. Maybe I should set the CDROM ID to 0 and leave it terminated?

Offline Syntho

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 10:43:47 PM »
Setting that to ID0 doesn't help. For some reason my 9600 isn't liking that I don't have a SCSI HD in it. I guess it kind of 'expects' to see one. The main reason I got an SSD is because that SCSI HD is LOUD!!!

Offline IIO

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 10:44:54 PM »
in case the board and scsi of the towers (i never had one) is similar to the 7300, using IDs starting with 0 seems to be a good idea.

the internal scsi should be 2 or 2-fast and (in opposite to the external scsi 1 port) that should not require a end-terminator plug. (in case i am wrong here, using one will be a solution, too.)
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Offline IIO

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 10:50:28 PM »
hehe, if you have to buy a new scsi terminator that will cost more than a new CD drive. (which will be solution #3)
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Offline Syntho

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 11:51:23 PM »
I'm having some weird problems. My CDROM is freezing me and I think it has to do with termination. I seemed to have had to leave the SCSI HD actually connected with the SCSI cable to not freeze (but I disconnected the power). That gets the proper termination going on SCSI ID 0. Then after that I have a CDROM on ID 3, another CDROM on ID4, and then comes the Zip drive which is terminated.

I also see my SATA HDs but it says that's on SCSI Bus 2. The other chain above says SCSI Bus 0. With the setup I've got right now I'm getting freezing when inserting a CDROM. Here's how I've got it hooked up:

SCSI Bus 0:

(no ID) - SCSI HD, terminated, but with power unplugged
ID3 - CDROM, unterminated
ID4 - CDROM, unterminated
ID5 - Zip, terminated

SCSI Bus 2 (SATA, automatically fills in IDs)

ID0 - SSD
ID2 - 1TB drive

On the SCSI Bus 0, the ID3 CDROM seems to want to be terminated sometimes. I tried the exact rig as posted above but with the ID3 CDROM terminated as well, but no go.

This is turning into a SCSI Labyrinth!

Offline IIO

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 12:15:00 AM »

I also see my SATA HDs but it says that's on SCSI Bus 2.

that part is so far normal, dont worry.

in OS9, PCI-SATA-connected devices are seen as "SCSI" (because it is serial), and in OSX they are seen as "ATA" (because it is ATA).

and on digital audio and quicksilver/MDDs the system profiler wont show the disks at all but only sees the PCI card - as "ATA".

Quote
the ID3 CDROM seems to want to be terminated sometimes. I tried the exact rig as posted above but with the ID3 CDROM terminated as well, but no go.

ok, so if that also does not work, then i have no idea.

as a workaround maybe leave the SCSI disk in and put it to sleep after startup? or do you need the space where it hangs around. :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 11:52:42 AM by IIO »
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Offline Syntho

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 02:34:10 AM »
I think the issue is mainly due to me disconnecting that internal SCSI drive. The CDROM is ID3 so it should be terminated when the SCSI HD is disconnected. The Zip drive is ID5 so it should also be terminated. That should be my ticket, but it doesn't seem to clear up the freezing issue.

That's why I mentioned the SCSI Bus 2. 9600s have a SCSI Bus 0 (internal I think) and SCSI Bus 1 (external SCSI). The 9600 seems to augment those two with SCSI Bus 2 when you use a PCI SCSI or SATA/IDE controller. And since I've added a SATA card, the two SATA HDs show up as ID 0 and ID 2, with those IDs being assigned automatically. I'm thinking that those two drives might be interfering with the internal SCSI Bus 0 or something seeing as it's assigning them IDs automatically.

I thought that the different buses had their own termination chain going on, but maybe not. If the SSD is taking on ID 0, it expects it to be terminated. There is no termination on an SSD...

Offline Mat

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 03:01:59 AM »
Do you guys remember that the last physically attached device in the chain needs to be terminated, not the last ID?!

Is it possible that the HD is the last device (especially as the 9600 has that one HD in the top)? can you put the ZIP to the last connector of the cable?
And when you use it with the HD attached the ZIP isn´t terminated, or is it?

Offline Syntho

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 03:03:09 AM »
I just read briefly about an internal pass-through SCSI terminator. My rig works 100% when I've got that SCSI HD in there which is obviously terminated, no freezing when loading CDROMs. But no matter what I do when I disconnect it, I freeze.

I'm thinking that the CDROM's termination isn't 'good enough' and that I'll need one of those internal pass-through terminators, or something like that.

Offline Syntho

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 03:05:48 AM »
Do you guys remember that the last physically attached device in the chain needs to be terminated, not the last ID?!

Is it possible that the HD is the last device (especially as the 9600 has that one HD in the top)? can you put the ZIP to the last connector of the cable?
And when you use it with the HD attached the ZIP isn´t terminated, or is it?

I've never heard that you actually have to go by the way things are connected on the cable. I personally go by the ID and I've had success with mixing and matching. I can maybe try this, but it's gonna take a lot of work. I'm thinking I'll just need an internal terminator. Don't know much about them but I'm around to read up and see.

I imagine the HD is the last (or first?). The zip is always terminated in my rig since it's the last/highest ID (ID 5).

Offline Mat

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 03:18:29 AM »
I am wondering how it worked previously when your ZIP and HD are terminated, ... ?
Well it is the bus (the cable) that needs to be terminated at both ends. One end is the SCSI controller itselve (always ID 7) and the 2nd is the last device at the cable. The IDs do NOT tell anything about any physically order!

Just investigate a little bit:
http://lowendmac.com/1998/termination-explained/
http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html
http://www.scio.k12.or.us/shs/staffweb/mettsg/comptec/SCSI/Scsi_termination_tutorial.htm#TERMINATION

I am quite sure if you put any terminated device as last one to the cable, everything works well again.

Offline Mat

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 03:23:15 AM »
And to be crystal clear, every device between the controller and the last one needs "Termination Power" (trmpwr, tpwr, ...) enabled. As well the last device that needs to be terminated only has to be the last one at the cable, not the last cable connector! In fact this is one of the reasons for termination, that the cable may be longer and without further devices, so that you "cut of" the signals after the last device.

Offline DieHard

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 10:51:57 AM »
A few quick notes on SCSI termination and term power...

Always OVERLOOKED, check Term POWER first
Make sure your SCSI controller or at least one your devices provides "Term Power' to the SCSI Bus.
Term Power is NOT the same as termination, term power is a voltage  (+5 VDC, or LVD requires a 3.3 VDC) that travels down the SCSI bus used to power the SCSI terminator. So check the settings of your SCSI controller and enable Term Power. You need at least 1 device supplying term power... and I personally recommend only 1 device supplying Term Power unless your  SCSI chain (all cables together) are longer than 9 feet. (Having more than one device on the bus providing term power often desirable to reduce problems of voltage "droop" caused by IR losses in long SCSI cables). But remember, some devices have a  Termpwr fuse (PTC Resistor) which goes to high resistance if too much current flows while providing Termination Power to the SCSI devices. FOR MOST SETUPS, Turn on the Term Power of your SCSI controller and turn it off on all other devices.  If your controller does NOT supply temp power, turn it on via a Hard drive or other device(s).
Quote
For the SCSI Bus to work properly with controllers that do not supply termination power, the device itself, would have to provide Term power to the SCSI Bus. You will need to check your SCSI device documentation on how to set term power for the specific device. Most SCSI devices provide termination power, but not all. To ensure, please check with your product documentation or check with the device manufacturer.
Most of Adaptec SCSI controllers do supply termination power (Term power) to the SCSI Bus, but you must research it !

Now that we have that done... let's review Termination rules again

TERMINATION RULES:
1) As stated in another post, the last PHYSICAL device in the EXTERNAL SCSI chain Must be terminated, makes sense, think of the SCSI chain, like an old coax Ethernet, you don't want SCSI signals to attempt to shoot past the last device, hence termination is needed.... duhhhh

2) As stated in another post, the last PHYSICAL device in the INTERNAL SCSI chain Must be terminated, makes sense, think of the SCSI chain, like an old coax Ethernet, you don't want SCSI signals to attempt to shoot past the last device, hence termination is needed.... duhhhh

3) Obvious, but sometimes overlooked, If there are External and Internal devices present (On the same SCSI Controller), make sure the SCSI card is not Terminated (sometimes requires jumper removal or a dip switch set, or a SCSI BIOS setting).

4) Also Obvious... If your internal SCSI Cable has a big square block on the end of it that is a SCSI terminator and NO device should be terminated.

5) Problems... if any device midway in the external or internal chain IS terminated, then you will have all sorts of issues and shit will not function correctly... if at all; Check Hard drive jumpers and or remove long red terminator blocks (if present)

6) IDs in any order are OK as long as ther are unique (per channel), but try to number the card as SCSI ID 0 and increment starting from the card outward, so the first connected device is ID 1, next ID 2...and so on... since the internal channel and external channels are separate, you can use the same method for each channel without a problem or you can use a different starting point for external stuff to avoid confusion.... for example, a system with 2 internal HDs and 1 external Jazz drive...
Card is ID 0, first internal HD is ID 1, 2nd HD is ID 2 (Terminated or end of cable terminated)
Jazz is ID 6 and terminated.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 06:02:47 PM by DieHard »

Offline mrhappy

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2015, 08:48:01 AM »
Nice explanation DieHard!! ;D

Offline DieHard

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2015, 08:26:21 AM »
Glad you like it Mr Happy, I don't know if many still use SCSI, but at least it's there for the few :)

Offline Irisman

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2015, 11:13:51 AM »
Glad you like it Mr Happy, I don't know if many still use SCSI, but at least it's there for the few :)

I am one of those few using SCSI.  8)

Offline mrhappy

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2015, 12:13:08 PM »
Have only one SCSI external drive and a couple SCSI CD burners but they they don't get turned on very often.

Offline IIO

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 05:42:22 AM »
Glad you like it Mr Happy, I don't know if many still use SCSI, but at least it's there for the few :)

why would you use SCSI in a powermac when you can get a IDE PCI card and a IDE HD for around $3,95 ?

sometimes i wonder if wether SCSI users are helpless nerds or i am a complete ignorant.

or maybe both is true.
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Offline mrhappy

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2015, 06:39:49 AM »
Glad you like it Mr Happy, I don't know if many still use SCSI, but at least it's there for the few :)

why would you use SCSI in a powermac when you can get a IDE PCI card and a IDE HD for around $3,95 ?

sometimes i wonder if wether SCSI users are helpless nerds or i am a complete ignorant.

or maybe both is true.

In my case the SCSI stuff is a 'hold over' from when you HAD to use SCSI... Have no reason to remove the cards and the stuff still works... but like I said, I don't use it that often these days. As you can see in this thread, the whole ID/ termination thing was/is confusing to a lot of people. DieHard's informative, clearly explained post is just the ticket for those who still use or want to use any SCSI devices!! ;D

Offline MacTron

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Re: Proper SCSI Termination & Term Power
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 06:47:16 AM »
SCSI Drivers were way better than ATA at its time. ATA 66 and ATA 100 even though they don't where better than SCSI 3 at least was a lot of cheaper.
Now a days, Serial SCSI is very similar to Serial ATA.

why would you use SCSI in a powermac when you can get a IDE PCI card and a IDE HD for around $3,95 ?

IIO: You'll always surprised me with your low prices. :D May be you are thinking into a New gold backed deutsche mark. LOL

BTW: where I can find a IDE PCI card and a IDE HD for around $3,95 ?

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