ATI Radeon 9200 + Mac OS 9.2.2

[Nameci]

I have tried the drag and drop method as it seems previous poster on this thread was successful. It booted well but still with the same issue. I forgot to state that the screen is "out of range" right before it goes into login on the desktop, so it seems that the screen resolution outputted from the vid card was way beyond the screen that could handle. It would display fine on the startup screen, just that it would not display the desktop. And also I have noticed the it would not load the video acceleration extensions.

Btw, the screen is connected via VGA, there is another option on the screen for the DVI connector. I am not sure now if it is a retail/official card of some sort or a flashed one. It is a card of red PCB color and DVI-I and VGA connector, if that helps to ID it. The screen has a max res of 1366 x 768, and it work well on 10.4.11.

[MacTron]

...  it would not load the video acceleration extensions.

You should try the MacTron's famous System folder  . It is bullet proof and includes the latest ATI drivers, ( including 9200 support ). Furthermore it include the old Monitors control panel v7.5.6 that could change your screen resulution even if you start whith extensions off.

Btw, the screen is connected via VGA, there is another option on the screen for the DVI connector. I am not sure now if it is a retail/official card of some sort or a flashed one. It is a card of red PCB color and DVI-I and VGA connector, if that helps to ID it.

Try the DVI connector, it is  more reliable usually and the image quality is better.

The screen has a max res of 1366 x 768, and it work well on 10.4.11.

The 1366x768 resolution isn't supported by Mac Os 9. AFAIK.

[Mat]

Perhaps we are facing a communication problem here. I strongly belive that Nameci has a simple driver issue. As said most likely a clean driver conflict like we had so often. I suggested to boot with all extensions off and start to work with that (most likely 640 x 480) resolution. But I just read about further copy operations.
Just get rid of that former ATI extensions, and use the latest installer from 2005. There is no need to get stuff from everywhere and mess up the System folder even more. Just use the original 9200 installer!

The 1366x768 resolution isn't supported by Mac Os 9. AFAIK.

I strongly disagreee to that staement. It does not depend on the OS, but on the graphiccard and its drivers. If the card works fine with EDID informations coming from the monitor, everything goes well. I even used resolutions like 169 x 1050 and similar. Even my old TwinTurbo here offeres me for the 2nd display 1920 x 1080, ...

[Nameci]

I have disabled all the ATI extensions if that would matter and I have rebooted, all the extensions enabled were loaded at startup except of course for the graphic accelerator. Once it is past startup screen and about to go to desktop there goes my dreaded "out of range". Funny, because during startup the screen is on a somewhat recognized high resolution (I would assume it is on 1366 x 768), not on 640 x 480.

I have no professional use for this powermac, except I will pass this to my 3 year old son. There are lots of education applications and references, and besides I just love the snappiness of OS9.

I would assume most of us here are windows free.

[Mat]

I have disabled all the ATI extensions if that would matter and I have rebooted, all the extensions enabled were loaded at startup except of course for the graphic accelerator. Once it is past startup screen and about to go to desktop there goes my dreaded "out of range".

These statements are contradictory. I don´t know why, but I do not understand what you tried.
Did you boot without any extension? If so, how? Did the desktop come up without extensions? If so, in which resolution.
How did youdisable "all the ATI extensions"? And which extensions you are referring to if you say "grapic accelerator extensions" do not load?

[Nameci]

Hello Matt,

Thanks for helping buddy. When I say disable the extensions, what I mean is turning the extensions off on boot. If extensions are off it would boot fine without the "out of range" message on the monitor screen. Within 3 startups, the startup resolution would be higher, but after 3 or so startups it would now start to 640 x 480 and would boot to the desktop. I am sorry english is not native to me so I cannot state it articulately.

When I say disable all the ATI extensions, that means using the extension manager and removing the "x" mark on the boxes of all extension that has ATI on its name.

I can figure out which extensions are causing this issues once I can go past the "out of range" message on the screen. If extensions are off it means all the extensions on the /System Folder/Extensions are disabled, am I right? What extensions are setting the resolution then?

[Mat]

Hi Nameci,
English is also not my first language, thats why I really thought I didn´t get some parts.

So, I still belive you got a simple drivers conflict. Fine to hear that your Mac can boot to the desktop if all extensions are off. What I still do not understand is how you can use Extensions On/Of control panel without extensions loaded. That is still a myst, ...
There is one huge missunderstanding: you cannot use any screen resolution changes without the correct ATI 9200 drivers, but you have just the wrong ones recently as I think (the original Mac OS 9 ATI drivers that came with your system - for other cards). You need to get the right ATI 9200 drivers installed, and than you can change to any resolution.

But; what you should try is quite easy as I said above:

• Download that ATI driver which is linked above.
• Boot your mac with all extensions off!
• from now on you will work in 640 x 480 or a similar low resolution for all steps!
• Manually remove all extensions regarding ATI from the Folder "Extensions" in the Systemfolder to the folder "Extensoins (off)" in the System Folder. That is the same what you usually automatically do with the Control Panel "Extensions ON/OFF"
• reboot your mac to see if it now boots with extensions into the desktop. If it doesn´t you still have a conflict, and need to identify te problematic extension by manually removeing one after the other to the "off folder"
• If you mac boots, run the ATI installer,
• reboot, and enjoy the 9200 and resolution as bith depth changes and adjust to your needs.

[MacOS Plus]

"Out of range" normally refers to the refresh rate being too high (or low) for the monitor's circuitry, not so often the resolution.  Not all refresh rate settings are possible with every resolution on any given card.  Quite a few times I've run into a situation where I temporarily had to connect another more capable monitor to a particular Mac setup in order to get video long enough for a mode change, at which point I would go back to using the original monitor.

  This happened to me more often with LCD monitors, although quite a few CRTs fell victim too.  The resolution you said is the maxium for your monitor is a bit unusual.  I'm quite willing to bet your monitor is the issue here.   Either the resolution isn't supported by the video card (likely), or the refresh rate available at that resolution won't sync with your monitor.  Many older LCDs could only sync to 60hz.  Connecting it via DVI may help the video card to better detect the supported modes.  If that doesn't work, try connecting a more capable monitor first, change the resolution and/or refresh rate, and then switch back again.

[Mat]

His monitor is working in general, as he stated above (in low resolutions). He just cannot adjust the refresh rate (and resolution) as he has the wrong drivers. He just needs to install them, and will subsequently be able to change everything!

[MacOS Plus]

  My point was that the card seems like it may be automatically switching at the desktop to a setting his monitor doesn't support.  This is very common behaviour.  If the card is validly displaying video at that stage there would be no way to know for sure without trying another monitor first.  I agree drivers may be the issue, as I was one of the first to question that, but the compatibility of that particular monitor at a particular resolution and refresh rate has to be ruled out first.  As I said, an LCD monitor with a maximum resolution of 1366 x 768 is often a good indicator of a product with limited refresh rate support.  There were lots of similar screens out there with a very limited tolerance for refresh rate settings other than 60Hz at higher resolutions.  The fact that it will function at 640x480 is almost meaningless as just about any monitor will display that resolution and the default refresh rate of the video card at that resolution is almost certainly 60Hz.

  It still would not surprise me if the video card in question doesn't actually offer a 1366x768 resolution setting because it was not a common one.  The video card may be trying to output what it considers the closest possible setting, which may also not be a resolution that particular LCD monitor can support.  (It might me trying to output 1280x768, for example.)  Trust me, I've been through this tons of times before.  He could have working drivers already and wouldn't even know it because the system will keep automatically switching to an output format his monitor won't display, never giving him the chance to switch.  It's one of those all-or-nothing catch22's regarding extension loading that I talked about in another thread.

  Try another monitor for long-enough to switch settings and then go back to trying the 1366x768 monitor again.  Even a monitor that supports a lower resolution may be enough to successfully view video at the desktop temporarily because it would force the video card to pick a different resolution by itself.  It may, in extreme cases, also require a PRAM reset (or double or triple-reset) to get a one-time boot at a lower desktop resolution.

[Mat]

  My point was that the card seems like it may be automatically switching at the desktop to a setting his monitor doesn't support. 

Thats obvious, and of course you are right. And yes, perhaps if he finds some monitor that uses exacxtly the resolution/refresh rate/bit depth that the card puts out after booting, he may get a signal, and the desktop. BUT my point was, that all that card specific/OS specific questions are obsolte as long as he doesn´t have the right drivers to switch to other resolutions.

I got the feeling that we are complicating things a lot, as there were already postings abut "not using 9 natively at all" and such. This is perhaps as many of us have high knowledge and expect "usual" tries before a posting. But I got the impression that Nameci has to do just some very basic steps. Of course I can be wrong.

[Nameci]

Would an aluminum 23" ACD work on this vid card? The other screen I have is an ACD with the proprietary connection.

[MacOS Plus]

  That ACD model seems to have a really strange horizontal/vertical resolution ratio, but it can't hurt to try.  It is likely a little more advanced in terms of handling resolutions that need to be scaled to fit and unusual refresh rates than your older LCD.  It should be enough to tell if you really are getting visible video at the desktop with the extensions "on".  If it shows on the ACD with extensions "on" then you should be able to switch resolutions or refresh rates and re-attach the older screen.  Even if 2D acceleration fails to enable you should still be able to switch resolutions.  There's a strong chance you won't be able to set it to the native resolution of 1366x768, but hopefully you can find a similar setting that isn't too blurry.

[Nameci]

I checked again, re:resolution, by booting into OSX. It is actually 1360x768 @59.3Hz, and no other options for the freq enabled. I lowered down the res to 1280x720 and there, 60Hz and 75Hz is enabled as freq options.

I think the vid card is forcing the screen to 1360x768 @60Hz, but what boggles my mind is that why on startup with OS9 it is displaying a higher resolution that seems like 1360x768, but once startup is complete and logging into the desktop the screen would blank and display "out of range".

I have replaced all the ATI extensions with the updated ones (from ^^^), still the same thing so I would think the drivers are ok, my issue would be compatibility with the monitor.

[Mat]

If you would have the right drivers, you should be able to change the resolution, at least to anything else, like 640x480@60Hz!
Sorry, but what do you mean by "replaced the drivers"? That is mystical like your "Extensions off" above that you never explained. Did you finally run the ATI installer from within Mac Os 9? I expect not. I got the feeling you are heavily bustling around from the booted Mac OS X within the 9 Systemfolder.

I am giving up here. But don´t blame Mac OS 9! My own 9200 is working perfectly.

[Nameci]

@Mat,

You said, yours is working perfectly, is the Graphics Acceleration working?

Thanks a lot buddy, and to all who have responded and posted on the thread for all your suggestions and recommendation. I really appreciate your help.

I did install the update files from 2005, with the PC monitor still no dice seeing the desktop, "out of range" still persist. Anyway, it is a chinese made and branded monitor so I would point my finger to the monitor, it is btw a 720p native monitor. I could not even get to the desktop with extensions loaded only up to startup screen where you see extensions icons on the lower left.

Anyway, I did put in the 23" alu ACD, and voila I have the MacOS9 desktop no sweat. That means the drivers are working, ATI extension icon on the upper right of the menu bar can be seen, so that means ATI extensions are loaded, except the ATI Graphic Acceleration is grayed out.

Next I would be trying is a DVI connection instead of VGA. If all goes well I will be in Cloud OS9.

[Nameci]

...  it would not load the video acceleration extensions.

You should try the MacTron's famous System folder  . It is bullet proof and includes the latest ATI drivers, ( including 9200 support ). Furthermore it include the old Monitors control panel v7.5.6 that could change your screen resulution even if you start whith extensions off.

Where can I dl your famous System folder? I will try to change res even when extensions are off.

[MacOS Plus]

  As I understand it, OS 9 works with a 'safe' lower resolution until it hits the desktop, then it tries to switch to what it thinks is the best higher setting for the monitor.  If you see the desktop and shut down through the menu it assumes the setting is good, stores it in the motherboard PRAM, then loads it as early as possible on next boot.  If you don't see the desktop and shut down improperly the higher setting doesn't get saved to PRAM and you get stuck in a loop where it starts at a visible lower resolution and then keeps switching to something else at the desktop.  If you ever reset the PRAM then you get back into the cycle and have to switch monitors again once to get your settings back.

  Your smaller LCD isn't exactly 'crappy', it just isn't designed for a wide range of input settings.  As you see though via the ACD, the drivers are partially working, as I expected.  What isn't working is the acceleration because the card is not recognized as an officially supported variant by the ATI driver.  I can see that yours isn't exactly the same as mine because yours has half the VRAM and some other minor differences in the device declaration ROM fields.  It could be that it was a version without complete OS 9 support and meant only for OS X, or it may be a PC card that had a Mac ROM flashed into it.  If you look at the model sticker on the card it should clearly say "MAC" on it if it was a true retail Mac card and not a flashed one.

  As has been mentioned you may be able to get acceleration working with a modified driver.  Someone else on this forum may be able to help with that.  There may also be a chance the ROM can be flashed to a different version.

  In the end the monitor was the main culprit.  Be happy you can see the desktop because you still have a reasonably usable system even without acceleration because the card is quite fast anyway.  The only things that shouldn't work well would be 3D games and Quicktime videos or DVD playback.  If you don't need those then you can probably continue using the system as it is.

  I will report back later with the specifics of my 9200 card and the drivers I'm using.  And in answer to your other question, yes, acceleration is enabled on my card.

[MacOS Plus]

  Could you post the device profile information from the view in the ATI Displays window also?  I'd like to give you a complete comparison against my card.  I can already tell you that yours has a slightly older ROM version.

[MacTron]

Where can I dl your famous System folder? I will try to change res even when extensions are off.

Here you have:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3176.0.html

First try this System folder with the extensions enabled. You will find that everything works ok, including 2D/3D acceleration, and you could even switch resolutions with the extensions off. But you'll never ever can set 1360x768 in Mac Os 9.