use Apple Disk Image format (.dmg .smi .img) packaging os9 files to move to osX

[Protools5LEGuy]

just to clear the confusion caused here a bit:

 - dmg does not work in OS9

Not Exactly true. There was the last disk utility from apple to OS9 that could mount some dmg files, but not all...

[supernova777]

just to clear the confusion caused here a bit:

 - dmg does not work in OS9

Not Exactly true. There was the last disk utility from apple to OS9 that could mount some dmg files, but not all...

yes the reason some work and some dont.. is in the first post of this thread.
look for the filesystems i marked with ***
with its any of these, then its able to be mounted in os 9
because these filesystems are in ***both*** .dmg + .img (& .smi)

-Mac OS Extended (HFS Plus) ***
-Mac OS Standard (HFS) ***
-MS-DOS ***

the ones that are incompatible use:
-Mac OS Extended Journaled
-UFS

[Protools5LEGuy]

So the question is: How we made ALL dmgs OS9 compatible within os9? Toast seem to mount everything on os9...

[supernova777]

to explore further i found this stuffit installer dmg on my mac osx partition
tried to mount in os9.. doesnt work..

so i reboot in tigerX
checking diskutility i see it says

Disk Description :   Apple UDIF read-only Media   
Total Capacity :   250.0 MB (262,144,000 Bytes)
Connection Bus :   Disk Image   
Disk Write Status :   Read Only

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image#UDIF_data_format

Apple disk image files are essentially raw disk images (i.e. contain block data) with some added metadata, optionally with one or two layers applied that provide compression and encryption. In hdiutil these layers are called CUDIFEncoding and CEncryptedEncoding.[1]

UDIF supports ADC (an old proprietary compression format by Apple), zlib, and bzip2 (Mac OS X v10.4 and later only) compression internally.

this is a filesystem that is alien to mac os 9?
checking back to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image
Universal Disk Image Format (UDIF) is the native disk image format for Mac OS X. Disk images in this format typically have a .dmg extension.[1] New Disk Image Format (NDIF) was the previous default disk image format in Mac OS 9

http://c-command.com/dropdmg/manual-ah/format
checking here..
Legacy NDIF Disk Image

    NDIF disk images are compatible with System 7, Mac OS 8–9, and Mac OS X. These can be useful for exchanging files with legacy Macs or for use with emulators such as Sheepshaver and Basilisk. NDIF disk image files use resource forks, so some care must be taken in transferring them over the Internet. They are also limited to 2 GB of logical size.


actually  you know what? i remember reading about this
the deciding factor of whether the dmg file can be mounted on mac os 9 is the compression
if its no compression u can mount it on mac os 9..
but if it has compression.. then it will make an error.
this is mounting with diskcopy 6.5b im talking about

u can test by using this dropDMG app in osx.. and then make a bunch of small .dmg and try to see which settings will mount in mac os 9
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/
oops requires 10.5.8!
wait they have older versions posted
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/support#older-versions
ill download: DropDMG-2.8.6-tiger.dmg

further searching the manual for dropdmg reveals these entries::
-Encodes Mac OS 9 .img images with MacBinary so that they can be transferred on the Internet.
-NDIF images are now created with filenames of 31 characters or less, so that there won’t be any name mangling when they’re viewed in Mac OS 9.
-Supports ADC and NDIF compression for compatibility with Mac OS 10.0.x and Mac OS 9, respectively.
-

[supernova777]

here i made a .dmg of each of these different dmg options listed in dropDMG preferences...

we will see which open with diskcopy 6.5b!

conclusion:
read only - mounts
read write - mounts

all the other options DO NOT WORK!
so u can safely package files to transport from mac os x to a mac os 9 system while in mac os x.. by creating a .dmg file that is readOnly or readWrite!!!!
this is the best way.. no stuffit required.

i thought ADC was going to work ..
because of this entry in the dropDMG manual "Supports ADC and NDIF compression for compatibility with Mac OS 10.0.x and Mac OS 9, respectively."
 but no.. i guess mac os 9 doesnt mount any .dmg made
with compression! i guess this ADC compression support is for .img NDIF?
we see in the pic below there is some NDIF compressed formats.. which i believe would work .. all the .img formats work in mac os 9..

also: the icon that it shows for the mounted dmg isexactly the same as a .img or .smi file.. see the attachment!

[supernova777]

i just did a similar test using only Disk Utility built into tiger to create the .dmg
you have to select  read-write + no compression for it to work to mount in 9
and probably has to be under 2gb...actually no! that 2gb limit was pertaining to the NDIF legacy format... not read-write .dmg!! so there is no size limit!

easiest way to confirm it is, when u create the disk image u specify the size.. make sure that this size is exactly what u specified
f.e. my disk i chose to make 500mb and i saved it in all available formats by using convert option in disk utility.. and the only one that worked in 9 was exactly 500mb.. (uncompressed)

[IIO]

dmg files can be opened by diskcopy 6.5b3 provided they meet a certain specific criteria.

yeah but nobody uses this format.

the  only OS9 software i ever saw in a -dmg was the free tassmann from keyboards - and that did not open.

for exactly that purpose and that purpose alone... to transport the filesystems of software installers over the internet

i always disagreed with apple over that.

for installer containing  ... say ... less than aber 2000 files, zipping the installer package opens faster later on the uers 10.4.x machine compared to mounting an image.

actually, i am totally annoyed by mounting images in OSX for some 25 seconds only to find there is one 2 mb file inside.

using images comes handy for distributions like textures though (3 gigabyte of thousands of text files for a programming language). here it saves a lot of time - and allows you to copy only a part of it.

i really fail to understand where u are coming from with this.. of course it executes code it installs the app?

the point is that it means distributing an executable, executables can bring malware onto a system before they can be scanned by antivirus software. this issue of course applys more to windows, but generally self extracting archives and self mounting images are a taboo.

well, i know, of course the html format or director and flash are much more dangerous in practice.

so does anything else u can put in a stuffit once u expand it?

once you expand it makes the fine difference.

when creating a shrinkwrap package there is a matrix of different settings

let me put it like this: as soon as you set one of these settings you will no longer be able to authorise a copy of e.g. commercial steinberg or apple products with respective "CD" copy protection schemes.

what the easiest safe solution for creating backup copys of volumes in OS9 is, no idea, i actually use OSX disc utility since 2002, mainly because it does not work to create 1:1 copies with toast 5.x+.

[supernova777]

110.. seriously dude.. did u read my post? i direct your attention to this part of this post above:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1223.msg4926#msg4926

this is a directly quoted from the book: "Mac secrets 5th edition"
posted here: http://macos9lives.com/downloads/manuals/MacOs/Mac%20Secrets%205th%20Edit.pdf

i dunno man your credibility is somewhat thin considering u uploaded those files for max msp in a .zip from mac os x!!!
.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files....... it completely destroys the fork + metadata,icon data etc

when you are spouting this stuff about .sit being a better choice i think u are speaking out of habit rather then out of correct information
and its TRUE  that most classic mac os users have used STUFFIT as a standard for many many many years
but id like to propose that that is  only the case because the general public at large did not having a commanding understanding of all these other
formats!!!!! and so they clung to stuffit as a saftey and even in doing so many people still make mistakes and corrupt many files
the biggest of those mistakes is not using macbinary (as we have learned)

this post i made, im not here to push my opinion other people for the hell of it.
i am speaking from having researched it just these past few days
why? because for the longest time i didnt understand the differences between .hqx .bin .sit .smi etc etc and
i feel very confidant in my understanding of these technologies now having done my homework.. and having shared that with the rest of the board.
i am very much confidant in that disk images are even more so the native file format for MAC OS 9 much more so then Stuffit files
u are free to continue to use stuffit files all u want of course im not the boss of you.. but i feel that disk images is a superior choice
especially for speed and not having to wait to decompress+ unstuff files.. when u download a .smi.bin file it decodes from macbinary + mounts all at the same time
and takes seconds and no downtime waiting for unstuff..
more time doing... less time farting around wasting time.

[IIO]

.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files

you could also say OS9 is the last OS one should use for connecting to the internet. i also hate that as much as you do you, but to be compatible with the rest of the world it is sometimes better not to use ones favorite tool.

it is a much work for me to boot into another OS (only to upload 2 mb) as it would be for the other side to boot into OSX to unzip a file.

the point i was making about dmg is that it is useless to know that dmg files using no compression can also be mounted in OS9, because dmg files are usually using compression. try downloading some OSX program off the net and opening them in OS9 and you will see what i mean.

backwards compatibility has limits. i remeber the day i found out that toast 11 images dont open in toast 8 under circumstances ... and recently i had trouble playing an mpeg video made with QT7 in 10.4 with QT7 in 10.5 ... i was kinda shocked ... so then i had to try to remain compatible with the future by using mp4 ...

[supernova777]

.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files

it is a much work for me to boot into another OS (only to upload 2 mb) as it would be for the other side to boot into OSX to unzip a file.

the point i was making about dmg is that it is useless to know that dmg files using no compression can also be mounted in OS9, because dmg files are usually using compression. try downloading some OSX program off the net and opening them in OS9 and you will see what i mean.

i was referring to this info with the intented use of creating + packaging the files myself,  not randomly finding things online..
yes 80% of hte time if u find a .dmg file online it will be using compression and will unmountable..... but this isnt the purpose that im talking about
and why would u want to open a mac os x program in mac os 9? in most cases this would be useless.

im talking about moving my *OWN FILES* from os9 to osx and vice versa.. SAFELY..
like project files.. or photshop documents or any other META DATA RICH documents ..
its possible to move these files between X + 9 withotu fucking up + corrupting them using these methods!
re: the info above pasted by diehard.. this was to highlight the fact that the .sit stuffit format wasnt Allways compatible!
it was an evolving format with slight differences that caused incompatibilities resulting in corrupted files and files that only
extract properly with certain stuffit expander versions!!!!!!

for moving your own projects to mac os x and back to 9 the perfect scenario is using a READ-WRITE disk image (.img)

re: rebooting to zip/unzup...
again i think u didnt really read what i wrote because i exposed the fact here that u can use NDIF based ".img" file format and it works 100%
WITH COMPRESSION on both MAC OS 9 + MAC OS X!!!
try to find an apple official update or release that is posted online using .sit or .zip
u will not find such a document (officially) because that is NOT what they adhered to or allowed.. they had their own format for such things
this is a fact that i remember qquite strongly because i was alwasy wondering hwo do they create these other format types of files???
that i did not know the complete details about

so u dont even need to reboot from x to 9 or 9 to x
thats the whole point of my post... to show that this format is supported on both if u make these files in the right configuration
there are probably many apps or scripting methods to be able to instruct diskutility or diskcopy to create .img
in X one of the apps u can use is this dropDMG program i posted earlier
in 9 u just drag a folder to disk copy!

the .img file created is supported on both mac os 9 +  osx natively!!!!!!!
.dmg with no compression is mountable perfectly in mac os 9 with disk copy 6.5 (as the above test proved)
.img NDIF any format will be compatible without disk utility 6.5 i believe
i will test this now to make 100% sure

[supernova777]

Creating .img Disk Images in OS X
http://arcticmac.home.comcast.net/~arcticmac/tutorials/dimages.html 

i had some problems with the method outlined in this above site according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_Copy
disk copy was indeed part of mac os x in 10.0, 10.1 + 10.2 and was dropped/incorporate with disk utility i guess after 10.3

instead i used dropDMG to create NDIF .img and it worked but i encountered a strange bug where the files were  mounted and viewable in terminal under /Volumes  but they didnt appear on my desktop graphically! but they did mount..
and on mac os9 they mounted normally as though they were created normally in mac os 9!

according to http://www.quora.com/OS-X/How-can-one-create-a-IMG-file-on-Mac

IMG is for Mac OS 9. There's no other reason to use IMG these days.

Code: [Select]

hdiutil convert (dmgfilename).dmg -format Rdxx -o (imgfilename).imgthis code will convert a .dmg to a .img
so the capability is there its just not that accessible
unless u use DropDMG

[DieHard]

Chris,
Thanks for the great reference info. and testing, it supports the notes on my cheat sheet which I wrote over 8 years ago...

Do NOT add compression and make all DMG files R/W..

I didn't remember why I wrote that but, now I kinda remember testing some stuff I was moving back and forth between X and 9...

I also found this note...

Do not use Toast 5 to image original audio App CDs... it does not copy hidden /unsed blocks like Toast 4.1 does

So I would say that the only thing I can add (to all this great research you have done) is that Toast 4.1 is still the best utility to image all original Audio Application and Plugin CDs... I verified this many times... simply make a Cubase VST 5 CD image using any other version of Toast (even in X) or Disk Utility, and it will not authorize the install.

[Jakl]

Or even use CD-Copy to copy the CD. It is probably the best CD imager for the older Mac.
I think development stopped around toast 4 if I recall correctly - so it used the toast 4 extension.
But the toast 5 extension does work with it as well - even some dvd's with this later extension.

I think macintosh garden has the app.

[IIO]

and why would u want to open a mac os x program in mac os 9? in most cases this would be useless.

it is faster.

[supernova777]

So I would say that the only thing I can add (to all this great research you have done) is that Toast 4.1 is still the best utility to image all original Audio Application and Plugin CDs... I verified this many times... simply make a Cubase VST 5 CD image using any other version of Toast (even in X) or Disk Utility, and it will not authorize the install.

probably because they were trying to make it work faster
at the time cd burner speed was a BIG BIG issue!
for a "burning software" it was be #1 or bust

[supernova777]

directly quoting the DropDMG manual:
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/manual-ah/format

Legacy NDIF Disk ImageNDIF (.img) disk images are compatible with System 7, Mac OS 8–9, and Mac OS X. These can be useful for exchanging files with legacy Macs or for use with emulators such as Sheepshaver and Basilisk. NDIF disk image files use resource forks, so some care must be taken in transferring them over the Internet. They are also limited to 2 GB of logical size.

sooo if you are packaging os indepedant files.. project files, media files, documentation, midi files, samples, whatever files u have.. we have 2 easy options requiring little 3rd party software:

1)SIMPLY CREATING A .IMG READ/WRITE ON MAC OS 9 USING ANY VERSION OF DISK COPY
2)SIMPLY CREATING A .DMG READ/WRITE /w NO COMPRESSION ON MAC OS X USING DISK UTILITY

the resulting mountable disk image can be used on both X + 9 **INTERCHANGABLY** back + forth.
i think the .dmg file will be stuck to a certain size specified at creation time tho
whereas the .img file can be modifiable and grow its custom size?
will have to test

[coachla]

If this relates at all:

I use Toast 5 in OS9 to open DMG files from Tiger.  I just opened a .cdr image with Toast,  I think made with Disk Utility in OSX. I might have made the DMGs with Drop DMG app. SuperDuper's sparse image format can't be opened by Toast 5 in OS9....  sometimes I open DMGs in Tiger and  mount them over network.

SuperDuper will preserve NI authorizations in OSX but not Kontakt 1.5/Reaktor 4 in  either 9 or X.

SoundDiver authorizations will not survive cloning, but DP will at least in X.

[supernova777]

.bin macbinary files can be created on osx using terminal and typing:

"macbinary encode -v filenameToEncode.ext"

it will create filenameToEncode.ext.bin

[it0uchpods]

In OS 9, I just mount the image with Toast Titanium 5 (see MacintoshGarden) and then I can work with images fine. In OS X, they mount with DiskImageMounter

[macStuff]

the entire point of this post was to urge the use of .img apple disk image files (NDIF)
BECAUSE they are compatible on all versions of OSX + almost all flavours of classic Mac OS (7.x, 8.x, 9.x)

newer INTEL versions of OSX require you to convert the .img to a .dmg in disk utility, but as long as u do this
they are still 100% compatible but the PPC versions of OSX (up to 10.5) i believe can still natively mount .img files

the whole point being to reduce and end the possibility of STUFFIT + UNARCHIVER *ERRORS* that occur
frequently when one opens a file on a different  machine/os combination - incompatibilities arise in stuffit file formats
and certain file metadata is lost (such as correct title/names or dates) when the files are unarchived improperly
(as such is often the case when mac files are put inside a .zip file and unzipped on diff computer)