Author Topic: use Apple Disk Image format (.dmg .smi .img) packaging os9 files to move to osX  (Read 19120 times)

supernova777

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image

just a quick refresher on these fileformats
"for the purposes of getting mac os 9 install files to newbies with only X installed..."
we often see .img + .dmg + .smi
but maybe some of us are uneducated on that these formats are actually different versions of the same thing
which is "apple disk images"
these are not seperate standards.. they are the same thing!!

creating an .img file on mac os 9 is very easy and can be done with the application "Disk Copy" from within the utilities folder under applications folder
creating a .dmg file on mac os x is very easy and can be done with "disk utility" from within the utilities folder under applications folder

whats the difference between these two formats? NOTHING!
except that .dmg files have more support for different filesystem formatting options

Quote
What's the difference between .img and .dmg disk images?

They are similar, and you can use either with Mac OS X.
One difference is .dmg disk images can be formatted in one of these formats:
-Mac OS Extended (HFS Plus) ***
-Mac OS Extended Journaled
-Mac OS Standard (HFS) ***
-UFS
-MS-DOS ***

While .img disk images can be formatted as:
-Mac OS Extended (HFS Plus) ***
-Mac OS Standard (HFS) ***
-MS-DOS ***
-ProDOS
-Universal Disk Format.

*** denotes fileformat that is in both .img + .dmg standards!
original article here -- http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1611


transfering files between x + 9 can be done MOST SAFELY + MOST EFFECTIVELY
by using this method.. creating .img on mac os 9 using disk copy and then transfering the .img file from mac os 9 to a mac os x disk
this encapsulates + retains all proper file meta data such as resource forks icons associations etc

going from 9 to X at least..
im not so sure this is possible to go backwards from .dmg on X to 9
i had made some post about a rare version of disk copy that was able to mount .dmg files on mac os 9
so i beleive it is possible to go backwards as well providing you have updated your disk copy version to this
rare + hard to find version
i think we found this file.... i will take a look and post a link to the other thread!
but i think it will work (mounting .dmg from X on mac os 9) as long as this .dmg file frm X is using a compatible file system (mac os standard or extended) (denoted above as ***)


but this would be the best and most safe way to transfer files NATIVELY between X + 9
this is the "apple version of stuffit"
this is why apple dropped stuffit from mac os x tiger because they wanted people to use disk images + not use stuffit anymore

Quote

types of disk image formats

read/writeChoose this if you want to continue adding files to the disk image after it’s created.
sparse bundle disk imageChoose this if you want to continue adding files to the image and want to conserve space. The disk image is just large enough to hold the files in it and expands to its maximum size as you add files to it. For example, if you create a 100 MB sparse bundle disk image, its maximum size is 100 MB. (This format replaces sparse disk image.)
read-onlyChoose this If you don’t need to add more files to the disk image.
compressedChoose this if you don’t need to add more files to the image and want to conserve space. The data is compressed, so the disk image is smaller than the original data.
CD/DVD masterChoose this if you want to use the disk image with a third-party application. The disk image contains a copy of all sectors of the disk, whether they’re used or not, and copies them to other CDs or DVDs exactly as they’re stored in the disk image.
original article -- http://support.apple.com/kb/PH5866

Quote
what is a .img file?
A Macintosh disk image file is a mirror copy of the Mac file system and can be mounted on a computer as a virtual hard disk drive. These Macintosh disk image files can also be used as virtual optical drives like DVD and CD drives. Mac OS 9 and older versions are integrated with support for using and mounting these Macintosh disk image files. These Macintosh disk image files are saved in the IMG format and are affixed with the .img extension. These IMG files are also stored with encoding specifications and implemented with file compression standards proprietary to Apple. Similar to ISO files, an IMG file can sometimes be changed to an ISO file by simply replacing the .img extension with the .iso extension, and doing this will allow a user to use the IMG file with an image mounting program developed for Microsoft Windows-based systems. Mac OS X is also implemented with support for opening and using these IMG files, though newer disk image file formats are now widely used by associated applications programmed for Mac platforms.

original article -- http://www.reviversoft.com/file-extensions/img

^^ from the above article.. has anyone ever tried to make a disk copy .img file and actually move the file to another pc and change file to .iso + burn it?? it seems that .img .dmg .iso are all similar formats!!!!!!?? or has anyone tried to change a .toast file to a .img file (from 9) and click to mount  (on x) ?

« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 07:17:53 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: a refresher on Apple Disk Image format (.dmg, .smi, .img)
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 11:26:26 AM »
this is why i was trying hard to discover how to create these .smi files under mac os 9
remember this post?

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=798.0

never got the applescript to work.. ;(
but i just noticed that under diskcopy file menu, (in mac os 9) theres an option for file->execute diskScript.. maybe this is related? maybe not?
but shrinkwrap is basically a ui for doing the exact same thing..
but the whole reason for this thread is to restate that,
for the purposes of macos9lives
.smi (with compression) seems to be the best absolute format to use
even moreso then .sea or .sit.bin
(doesnt need to be stuffed or binary encoded because its already encapsulated + compressed!!!!!!!!)
because of the native support in BOTH X + 9
for the apple disk images format
either in .img, .dmg, or .smi types

so for getting setup files + utilities to new userrs coming to our site
that only have X installed... we can avoid all the complicated steps
of needing extra utilities such as stuffit etc simply by using
shrinkwrap to create .smi.bin files
the technote i referenced says that .smi should work fine in osx
 
the .sea.bin files are not natively supported by mac os x
and in some cases (as just proved in my experience today)
they do not extract properly under X...
(such as with the dragInstall922.sea.bin that is posted currently)

the best way to use disk copy to create these img files is to
run disk copy
select Image -> create image from folder
choose the folder
"Estimating size requirement" (this bypasses having to guestimate how much space u will need)
selecting read/write will allow u to continue to add files + grow the size of the .img file im pretty sure?
but the default read-only/compressed
and just hit save and let disk copy do its thing!

this file will be immediately mountable under X with just one click requiring no additional 3rd party software


now it may be better "COMPRESSION WISE" to use stuffit under X to compress this .img file created in 9
creating .img.sitx

im comparing now the 2 different approaches:
1)the compression with diskcopys 'readonly/compressed' setting (natively in 9)
2)the uncompressed .img stuffed to .sitx (on X)
will update with results..!

Quote
Quote
**** updated findings
testing this on the freshdraginstall diskcopy readonly/compressed (under 9) yielded a file with the size: 504mb
and using stuffit to create a .sitx (under x)
so while using stuffit under x to create .sitx gave a faster compression time + a slightly smaller size
this file will always require stuffit (and X) to expand whereas the diskcopy compression is natively supported and only slightly larger
but it did take alot longer to compress!! but this file is also natively compatible within both 9 + X and like i said only slightly larger

Quote
heres a quick link to a thread talking about self extracting "sitX" files.. (or the lack therof!)

q: Why doesn't Stuffit support the creation of self-extracting SITX files? Surely this isn't that hard to implement? (I could be wrong of course!)

a:  this functionality is coming, but I can't give you a definite ETA of when it will be in the product.

this communication is from june 2003...
original article -- http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aiREgPS_9s0J:archive.macfixitforums.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/101236/Self_extracting_SITX_files+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 05:55:07 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: a refresher on Apple Disk Image format (.dmg, .smi, .img)
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 11:37:14 AM »
also if you open 'disk utility' under mac os x ... and drag a '.img' file into the left pane,
i noticed from the "file" menu there is an option that says "fix os 9 permissions"
so that shows u right there. that this is indeed the 'conduit' between the two operating systems
that it was meant to be!

supernova777

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Re: a refresher on Apple Disk Image format (.dmg, .smi, .img)
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 06:06:08 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_mounting_image

so basically what im looking into doing is creating a dvd sized install (around 3-4gb) based on the freshdrag install that also includes installed cubase / logic / protools / ableton
and also many of the core VST's that everyone would want..  PREINSTALLED so that people like myself could use this install to instantly install using disk utility to a new partition on any g3 or g4
in a few moments time and having a full working install...litrally in a few minutes!! maybe even under 1 min if u have an ssd;) saving time in the event of hard drive failure.. or any other sort of troubleshooting to be able to instantly revert back to a fresh install rather then having to go thru the process of installing everything again which can take a few days in an of itself!!!!!!!

 i believe this is totally possible to send to someone with osx installed.. even if they have 1 disk with a seperate partition for 9...
or a seperate disk entirely... to use disk utility to restore to the partition using a 4-5gb .img file as the source.. effectively trasnplanting the mac os 9 os instantly
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 09:41:55 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Quote
Disk Images, DiskCopy, and ShrinkWrap

Years ago, Apple had a problem. It wanted to distribute software via the
Internet. But some of the software it wanted to distribute, such as its
PlainTalk Speech kit, wasn’t just a single control panel; it was a suite of files
— extensions, control panels, and so on — that had to be placed into the right
spots in your System folder. To ensure that all these pieces would go into the
right places, Apple also needed an Installer program. How on earth could
Apple distribute all of these pieces electronically — while still keeping them
together, with an installer, in an arrangement the installer understood?

The solution: Apple created disk images. A disk image (a file whose name
generally ends with the suffix .img) is an increasingly common file format for
downloaded software, especially from Apple. But once you’ve downloaded an
.img file to your hard drive, you can’t do a thing with it — unless you have a
program that can open it.

In this case, the program you need is DiskDup + (shareware), Disk Copy or
Disk Image Mounter (from Apple, available from its Web site) — or the much
superior ShrinkWrap (from Aladdin, and included with this book).

Here’s how you work ShrinkWrap: Whenever you encounter an
.img file — including the Disk Tools floppy-disk “images” that come on the Mac OS 8.5
CD-ROMs — double-click it (if you have Disk Copy) or drag it onto
ShrinkWrap’s icon. That’s it; a “virtual floppy-disk” icon appears on your
screen, exactly as though it’s a real floppy disk (the lower-right icon in Figure
22-7). Double-click it to see what Apple has in store for you — an installer, a
Disk Tools floppy’s contents, or whatever. When you’re finished using the
mounted disk image, drag its icon (not the original .img file!) to the Trash

You can also create a disk image. Why would you want to do so? Maybe you,
like Apple, want to distribute something (a little presentation, for example)
to friends, confident that all pieces will remain in their original folder
configurations. Maybe you haven’t switched to the HFS Plus hard drive-
formatting scheme (see Chapter 8), and you realize that a lot of small files
won’t waste their usual 64K apiece if they’re all stored together on a much
smaller “virtual disk.” (That last sentence will make a lot more sense once
you’ve read Chapter 8.)
Anyway, to create a disk image of your own, just drag a disk or folder onto
ShrinkWrap’s icon. The new .img file is created automatically. (You’re not
limited to creating disk images of floppies, by the way. ShrinkWrap is perfectly
happy to create disk images of entire hard drives, Zip disks, Jaz cartridges, or
whatever; it even offers to compress the contents in the process. As thousands
of teenage software pirates have discovered, that feature makes ShrinkWrap
ideal for creating easily uploaded duplicates of entire CD-ROMs
.) LOL!

No ShrinkWrap needed — and passwords
ShrinkWrap’s Preferences are worth checking out. Among our favorite features,
for example, is a self-mounting option. It lets you create disk-image files that your friends can open even
 if they don’t have Disk Copy, ShrinkWrap, or a similar
program. A self-mounting disk image is just as user-friendly as, say, a self-
extracting archive, as described earlier in this chapter — just double-click to
mount the “virtual disk” on the screen.

Another great preference: You can opt to protect an archive with a password.
Yes, all you Mac fans who’ve e-mailed us with this question — now you can
protect specific folders on your hard drive from prying eyes. (Remember the
password, though. There’s no “back door” to ShrinkWrap.

--- http://macos9lives.com/downloads/manuals/MacOs/Mac%20Secrets%205th%20Edit.pdf

"As thousands of teenage software pirates have discovered, that feature makes ShrinkWrap
ideal for creating easily uploaded duplicates of entire CD-ROMs "

^^ yet here we are using .toast images as a standard instead of .img..
when .img is native to both X + 9... and Toast. well.. requires Toast!!
maybe it would have been more convenient for all,
if we were all using diskcopy or skrinkwrap from the start!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 10:00:22 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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ok an update.. the file that i did readonly/compressed will not mount easily on X and now reports an error..  so i deleted the file from my user directory..
not sure why it had an error i think it was because i tried to mount it while it was on my afp fileshare (DUH) and not on my desktop and actual physical hard drive..  but i nuked the file already  ooops!

it seems that using diskutilty to do a restore from .img isnt going to work..
it seems easiest to just unstuff the .img from the .img.sitx (located in my user dir in the adrive ftp) and then after its extracted,
if you get any windows about username + passwords this may require u to go into system preferences -> accounts and click the lock in bottom left corner to AUTHENTICATE
then simply double click the .img file to mount
and drag these files from mounted .img (on desktop in X) to a prepared partition (formatted mac os extended non-journalled w disk utility ahead of time)
after the files are done copying -> system preferences -> startup disk  and look for the folder with the 9 on it that says its on your target partition (look for the volume name that you named it, or "untitled")

ive just tested this and im rebooting into the freshdraginstall for the very first time ever!!
and im seeing the blue screen for new user "welcome" animation
but im skipping that so i did cmd-option escape to force quit the new user setup
which results in the glitch of the ui.. so i rebooted again using the button on the front of the mac
which on reboot gives me the screen "computer didnt shut down correctly" disk first aid check..
and im in the fresh drag install mac os background of 9.2.2!
its detected my usb keyboard + airport card right away
correcting my resolution using the apple menu -> control panels -> monitor control panel
checking "About this computer" shows now mac os rom 10.2.1
now changing network connetion under apple menu  -> control panels -> tcp/ip -> selecting "connect via ethernet built in"
now i mount my AFP file server apple menu -> chooser -> apple share -> enter server ip 192.168.x.x
and it finds my media volume and mounts it on the desktop (just like the root drive)
copying my hardware drivers :)
installing shrinkwrap
installed stuffit deluxe 703
installed a-dock
installed classilla, dragged icon shortcut to the a-dock
put sherlock icon on the a-dock
set macos9lives.com forum as the home page in classilla
disabling sleep mode (due to freezing on my mdd due to 3rd party nec usb pci) control panel -> energy saver
installed ableton live 4.14 + authorized
installed m-audio delta driver for mac os 9.x
installed oms 2.3.8 (selected pcr oms document provided with edirol pcr keyboard as the current set up)
installed edirol pcr driver for usb midi keyboard


at the end of all this what i want to do is use diskUtility in X to create a .dmg of the mac os 9 partition and then this will be the mac os 9 install file..
and it will be very easy to install using the "Restore" from a .dmg to a partition technique in disk utility!!!!!!!!! and hopefully this will keep all program authorizations in working condition!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 12:23:44 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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ok now that i have a working playable setup for ableton live.... before i go much further only to find out that it doesnt work.. i will now try to back up this system and do a restore to a different mac! using the methods i talked about above;)

for this.. ive cloned the drive not using carbon copy cloner (ccc) but with disk utility...
and its made a compressed dmg that came out to about 650mb (the full size of the install on the mac os 9 root volume partition was around 1gb)
im restoring it now to my quicksilver 933mhz overwriting the current mac os 9 install with the cloned one frm the mdd..
ive installed all similar hardware (it also has a delta card for a audio interface + connected the same edirol keyboard)
so i hope to boot into a functional mac os 9 with authorized ableton live + drivers working in one go!

i booted up using the disk utility restore method just fine but when i ran ableton it came up asking for serial number and showed the serial i had used before but a few characters were missing..
so clearly something wasnt duplicated 100% for the auth to work.....maybe its because the hard drive is a different size??? not sure why the auth didnt work

ok regardless of the auth i had to re-run the installers for the audio + midi interfaces . probably because of where they are connected pci slots usb ports are diferent etc etc
also had to re-setup oms setup but live v4 is happily playing midi from operator (in demo mode for testing midi + sound are working)

seems my goal of having a truly instant setup is a bit shortsighted;)
 i guess i will have to try carbon copy cloner now:/

i wonder if its the differences in hard drive size/different systemthat is making teh auth not work . i will only know if i try to overwrite the existing install ON THE SAME MACHINE from the back up
and see if it works seamlessly loading up with everyhtng activated still or not!

ran out of juice for day (this being human thing sucks man;) hehe)
so i will try more tomorrow .. im thinking carbon copy cloner will make it work!!! re keepin the auths working.
ive done this once before using ccc i think it worked fine but i remember itmesed somet hings up like being able to drag .sit files to expander. the icon woudlnt light up on drag, hold  + mouseover but maybe i just needed to 'rebuild the desktop file' to fix this... but yea having a universal install that i could just image to my macs and have cubase + pt + logic + all these vsts installed would be invaluable... i hate how long eveyrthing takes to installl !!!!!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 12:33:23 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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ok guys my mission here continues.. after ive had some rest..
now theres two other apps i can try to use in X to image the os9 partition.
superduper or carbon copycloner
im sure theres even more but for now these are the two that im testing to see if theres any difference in being able to maintain software authorizations working when cloned
so im imaging the original freshdraginstall on the mdd now using super duper! and i will copy this file back to my afp fileshare... and then boot up the qs 933 in X and copy the super duped .dmg clone of the 9 drive and restore it and see if u ableton will will start without asking for serial!!

im thinking one of these has got to work..
wish me luck

ok so superduper only took under 3min to clone the entire 1gb drive to a .dmg
i installed carbon copy cloner 3.4.7 which was the version reccommended to use with tiger 10.4.11
im now imaging the drive a second time using the ccc software... so i will have two images to try.. one from each app


supernova777

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ok i just tried super duper and it failed too..
ableton comes up asking for serial on launch
i wonder why it cant clone the authorization
i will try ccc now just to be thorough but its not
looking like its going to work...

supernova777

  • Guest
does anyone know of a disk cloning app that might give better success for Mac os 9?

carbon copy cloner didnt work either........
the previously authorized ableton came up asking for serial

i think it would work if i was restoring to the exact same machine...... but not to another machine with hardware differences
i dunno im angry. and stumped.. this sucks! i was hoping it would work

Offline Philgood

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Maybe has to do with making visible the invisible files before doing the imaging.
I remember there was a command for doing this in OS9.
*G4 MDD 1.25GHz (Single 2003)* with 2x 80Gb harddrives, 1Gb RAM, Tascam US-428 and Edirol FA-101 USB/Firewire soundcards-*iMac G3 DV 400MHz* with installs from OS 8.6-OSX Tiger on different harddrives-*Powerbook G4 1.67Ghz* with new SSD ! Love it.

Offline DieHard

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OK some interesting notes found on the web...

Quote
- Chronology Of StuffIt
Here is the progression of the StuffIt Archive format over time. It might prove helpful in understanding the evolution of various archives you may encounter. 
    1993 -- Introduction of the StuffIt 3 archive format (used .sit extension) -- Better compression compared to original StuffIt archive format.
    1998 -- Introduction of the StuffIt 5 archive format (used .sit extension) -- Again, improved compression over prior version. This version of StuffIt also removed some of the dependencies on resource fork data to enable better cross platform support sending files between Mac and PC.
    2002 -- Introduction of the StuffIt X file format. (used .sitx extension) -- Better compression, strong encryption up to 512-bit, increased the number of files allowed in a single archive, increased the maximum allowable archive size.
    2005 -- An updated to the StuffIt X file format added compression of JPEG images –- able to compress JPEGs by an additional 20 to 30 percent without further reductions to image quality.
    2007 – An update to the StuffIt X file format added compression of the Microsoft Office 2007 file format (introduced in Office 2008 on the Mac). These new document formats (.docx, .xlsx, .pptx) are essentially compressed with Zip compression by the Microsoft applications, so the Finder’s zip compression is unable to make them smaller. StuffIt introduced a new technique that allowed Office 2007/8 documents to be further compressed, and for inline JPEGs stored in these documents to be compressed using the JPEG compression method introduced in 2005.
    2008 – An update to the StuffIt X file format added support for specialized compression of 24-bit images – TIFFs, PNGs, Bitmaps, etc. Also added was improved compression of PDF and MP3 files.

-- Progression of File Type and Creator
StuffIt 1.5.1
Extension: .sit
Type: SIT!
Creator: SIT!

StuffIt 2 (released with StuffIt Deluxe 3.0)
Extension: .sit
Type: SITD
Creator: SIT!

StuffIt 5 (released with StuffIt Deluxe 5.0)
Extension: .sit
Type: SIT5
Creator: SIT!

StuffIt X 7.0 (Released with StuffIt Deluxe 7.0 – this is the newer StuffIt X file format.
Extension: .sitx
Type: SITX
Creator: SIT

This information could come in handy if, somehow, the type or creator of an archive has been altered or corrupted. It might be possible to change that file data and achieve a successful unstuff. There are a few apps plus command line tools and developer tools to change the file type and creator.

As a suggestion to Newbies, I strongly recommend, that after getting Mac OS 9 up and running, use OS 9 to extract and install anything that you download from our site... since all OS 9 DAW software is pretty useless when running OS 9 in classic mode anyway, stay in OS 9 to extract and install all apps (just ignore OS X altogether); this will avoid many of the issues discussed here.  Our site has been geared to those in an OS 9 environment... period. So this whole image debate is a mute point

OK with that said... if you really need to stay in Tiger when extracting and organizing your files, then simple use the free "Unarchiver" Utility, I have used it and it is excellent. Supported file formats include Zip, Tar-GZip, Tar-BZip2, RAR, 7-zip, LhA, StuffIt and many other old and obscure formats.

You can get it here...
http://unarchiver.c3.cx


Chris, as far as cloning a hard drive and preserving authorized plugins... I gave up on that in 2008 with as much frustration as you are experiencing now... I am hoping you find something... it would benefit all of us... I do over 20 installs when stting up a new DAW.

supernova777

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hey diehard.
cool stuffit info.. but what does that have to do with apple disk images:)

Quote
As a suggestion to Newbies, I strongly recommend, that after getting Mac OS 9 up and running, use OS 9 to extract and install anything that you download from our site... since all OS 9 DAW software is pretty useless when running OS 9 in classic mode anyway, stay in OS 9 to extract and install all apps (just ignore OS X altogether); this will avoid many of the issues discussed here.  Our site has been geared to those in an OS 9 environment... period. So this whole image debate is a mute point

yes i agree that all of the existing archives posted on the site should be downloaded + installed from within mac os 9 itself.. unless you dont have internet access on your mac os 9 machine (which may be the case for some people) so yea, its not a debate, im not sure if u are catching what im saying, im not suggesting we move all archive files to .img or .smi or .dmg
the point was exactly what i said, to hilight that this is a natively supported fileformat (that supports compression) directly created+ supported by Apple for it's own operating systems.
and that its the best way to get os9 files to osx users...  for the purpose of installing the initial operating system. exactly. not to keep using once os9 is installed.. but to use for the different mac os 9 drag installs.. it works where other solutions have been problematic + error prone

and that these files are always double clickable and mountable frm within Any osx installation.. regardless of version. (so there is little to no room for error, compared with other formats that require 3rd party installed software to work) this makes .img file format the best way to deliver *initial installation media* to people who dont have os 9. meaning that we coudl use this to create a bundle,
of not just the fresh drag install but a variety of the other small "optional neccessities" in a file that would be just a couple hundred mb and save time + effort like having toast, fetch, stuffit, all of these other 3rd party essential os9 tools, in one custom created "disk image" made by us, for us.. thats my idea anyway.. much like the driver disk idea.

Quote
Chris, as far as cloning a hard drive and preserving authorized plugins... I gave up on that in 2008 with as much frustration as you are experiencing now... I am hoping you find something... it would benefit all of us... I do over 20 installs when stting up a new DAW.

i hope i figure it out too..
i told u i have done it sucessfully once.. and im hoping to discover that for whatever reason partitioning a drive was the reason it didnt work the second time, but i will let u know once i go thru the motions!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 09:02:43 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline DieHard

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Backup OS 9 DAW Volume
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 12:35:24 AM »
Chris…

I uploaded this to Adrive, but never got the time to fully try it out…

https://www.adrive.com/public/dpz4PF/Retrospect%20Express.sea.bin

It is called "Retrospect" and it is supposed to image a Volume Completely (even hidden stuff) and save it to a File… but this will probably have a 2 GB limit compressed, so I am guessing it will be good for about 4GB of initial setup on an OS9 volume (Maybe enough for a DAW Host and some plugs)… or maybe it can be used to make a basic image of OS, system utilities, and all hardware specific extensions/setups. If you have an external drive… it may do a full clone to it… but I think it lacked the ability to image from one internal HD to another

More info here: http://www.retrospect.com/en/support/kb/how-to-backup-to-hard-disks-mac

Let me know if you find it useful, drawback is you need to install the app in order to restore a backup image

supernova777

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sounds worth investigating for sure.

supernova777

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just for the record i just downloaded the cubase 4.0 tutorial dvd and it was a .toast.bin file.. i decoded by unstuffing (on mac os x 10.6.8 intel) with stuffit 12 or something.. and i was lazy didnt have toast on my macbook air and wanted to watch some of the content,
i simply renamed the decoded .toast file to .dmg and it mounted fine with disk utility so .dmg + .toast files seem to be totally interchangable

Offline IIO

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just to clear the confusion caused here a bit:

 - toast file also mount using disk utiliy when not renamed to .dmg (all images do)
 - dmg does not work in OS9
 - image files do not need to be .bin´ed, as they are binary files.
 - self mounting images should be avoided on the net because they execute code

additional thought:

it can under circumstances be wise to stuff or zip images files, namely when the image is a master, i.e. may not be changed in order to make it work from CD or DVD later. especially when using shrink wrap images it can easily happen that you change its content by accident.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline DieHard

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Quote
image files do not need to be .bin´ed, as they are binary files.

The reason we "Mac Binary" encode toast images, even though they are "Binary already" is to encapsulate them so the the icon and creator is preserved in the resource fork... although the image remains intact without encoding... our initial tests with Adrive (the service we use) exposed that when a toast image file is not encoded, after downloading it does not have an icon and "newbies" may not know that they have to open toast first to burn or mount the file... even though we named most files .toast

So at the time, I chose to encode all files, so that when un-encoded they would retain the icon and creator info.,  the un-encoding on a Quick Silver or MDD, even on a full CD image should not take longer than a few minutes; then you can store the un-encoded image as your own personal backup.

 

supernova777

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- dmg does not work in OS9
 - self mounting images should be avoided on the net because they execute code

hi 110;

this is partially correct and partially incorrect.
dmg files can be opened by diskcopy 6.5b3 provided they meet a certain specific criteria.
that is pertaining to which file system they are created with.. and the specific properties.
but yes some can be mounted and accessed in os9

the whole point of this post is to highlight that .dmg and .img are not so different and are in fact different flavours of the same design, implemented by apple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image

i would love it if you could go into further detail on the secnd point ive quoted here
because as you know since the dawn of macosx (and even sligtly before that) apple's
primary way of getting installation based software packages over the internet has been .dmg + .img
and its the entire sole reason that the apple disk image format was conceived and created...
for exactly that purpose and that purpose alone... to transport the filesystems of software installers over the internet

"self mounting images should be avoided on the net because they execute code"
i really fail to understand where u are coming from with this.. of course it executes code it installs the app?
so does anything else u can put in a stuffit once u expand it?

Quote
it can under circumstances be wise to stuff or zip images files, namely when the image is a master, i.e. may not be changed in order to make it work from CD or DVD later. especially when using shrink wrap images it can easily happen that you change its content by accident.

when creating a shrinkwrap package there is a matrix of different settings

file format = [shrinkwrap 3.x, Self-Mounting(.smi), disk copy 6, disk copy 4, diskdup+, ms-dos]
compression = [none, simple, diskcopy, stuffit]
encryption = [none, 40bit]
segment size = [too many options to list]

if u select simple, diskcopy or stuffit for compression settings, the disk image is READ ONLY and its contents can never be changed...
so "it can easily happen that you change its content by accident" not so much... read only is read only.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 01:47:26 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Quote
The reason we "Mac Binary" encode toast images, even though they are "Binary already" is to encapsulate them so the the icon and creator is preserved in the resource fork... although the image remains intact without encoding... our initial tests with Adrive (the service we use) exposed that when a toast image file is not encoded, after downloading it does not have an icon and "newbies" may not know that they have to open toast first to burn or mount the file... even though we named most files .toast

sure macbinary encoding is always a breeze to expand.. ti takes about as long as it takes to copy the file, because theres no de-compression taking place..
so by all means.. please do .bin everything! .bin at will! .bin there and done that ;) hehe

but i really hope that whoever is packaging files with extreme stuffit compression will choose "Faster compression" or no compression at all (For files smaller then 250mb or so?)
because this uncompressing takes forever and we literally cant use the mac for up to an hour just to decompress a file.. its ridiculous. especially when its not saving much disk space? if it was shrinking the file by 40-50% i guess it might be worth it but these days we all have enuff space we arent running out of hard drive space.. id gladly sacrifice a few more mb to avoid that 1hr-2hrs of waiting for stuffit to unstuff.

Online Protools5LEGuy

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just to clear the confusion caused here a bit:

 - dmg does not work in OS9

Not Exactly true. There was the last disk utility from apple to OS9 that could mount some dmg files, but not all...
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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just to clear the confusion caused here a bit:

 - dmg does not work in OS9

Not Exactly true. There was the last disk utility from apple to OS9 that could mount some dmg files, but not all...

yes the reason some work and some dont.. is in the first post of this thread.
look for the filesystems i marked with ***
with its any of these, then its able to be mounted in os 9
because these filesystems are in ***both*** .dmg + .img (& .smi)

-Mac OS Extended (HFS Plus) ***
-Mac OS Standard (HFS) ***
-MS-DOS ***

the ones that are incompatible use:
-Mac OS Extended Journaled
-UFS

Online Protools5LEGuy

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So the question is: How we made ALL dmgs OS9 compatible within os9? Toast seem to mount everything on os9...
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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to explore further i found this stuffit installer dmg on my mac osx partition
tried to mount in os9.. doesnt work..

so i reboot in tigerX
checking diskutility i see it says
Quote
Disk Description :   Apple UDIF read-only Media   
Total Capacity :   250.0 MB (262,144,000 Bytes)
Connection Bus :   Disk Image   
Disk Write Status :   Read Only

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image#UDIF_data_format

Apple disk image files are essentially raw disk images (i.e. contain block data) with some added metadata, optionally with one or two layers applied that provide compression and encryption. In hdiutil these layers are called CUDIFEncoding and CEncryptedEncoding.[1]

UDIF supports ADC (an old proprietary compression format by Apple), zlib, and bzip2 (Mac OS X v10.4 and later only) compression internally.

this is a filesystem that is alien to mac os 9?
checking back to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Disk_Image
Universal Disk Image Format (UDIF) is the native disk image format for Mac OS X. Disk images in this format typically have a .dmg extension.[1] New Disk Image Format (NDIF) was the previous default disk image format in Mac OS 9

http://c-command.com/dropdmg/manual-ah/format
checking here..
Legacy NDIF Disk Image

    NDIF disk images are compatible with System 7, Mac OS 8–9, and Mac OS X. These can be useful for exchanging files with legacy Macs or for use with emulators such as Sheepshaver and Basilisk. NDIF disk image files use resource forks, so some care must be taken in transferring them over the Internet. They are also limited to 2 GB of logical size.


actually  you know what? i remember reading about this
the deciding factor of whether the dmg file can be mounted on mac os 9 is the compression
if its no compression u can mount it on mac os 9..
but if it has compression.. then it will make an error.
this is mounting with diskcopy 6.5b im talking about

u can test by using this dropDMG app in osx.. and then make a bunch of small .dmg and try to see which settings will mount in mac os 9
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/
oops requires 10.5.8! :(
wait they have older versions posted
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/support#older-versions
ill download: DropDMG-2.8.6-tiger.dmg

further searching the manual for dropdmg reveals these entries::
-Encodes Mac OS 9 .img images with MacBinary so that they can be transferred on the Internet.
-NDIF images are now created with filenames of 31 characters or less, so that there won’t be any name mangling when they’re viewed in Mac OS 9.
-Supports ADC and NDIF compression for compatibility with Mac OS 10.0.x and Mac OS 9, respectively.
-
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 08:55:31 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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here i made a .dmg of each of these different dmg options listed in dropDMG preferences...

we will see which open with diskcopy 6.5b!

conclusion:
read only - mounts
read write - mounts

all the other options DO NOT WORK!
so u can safely package files to transport from mac os x to a mac os 9 system while in mac os x.. by creating a .dmg file that is readOnly or readWrite!!!!
this is the best way.. no stuffit required.

i thought ADC was going to work ..
because of this entry in the dropDMG manual "Supports ADC and NDIF compression for compatibility with Mac OS 10.0.x and Mac OS 9, respectively."
 but no.. i guess mac os 9 doesnt mount any .dmg made
with compression! i guess this ADC compression support is for .img NDIF?
we see in the pic below there is some NDIF compressed formats.. which i believe would work .. all the .img formats work in mac os 9..

also: the icon that it shows for the mounted dmg isexactly the same as a .img or .smi file.. see the attachment!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 09:19:47 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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i just did a similar test using only Disk Utility built into tiger to create the .dmg
you have to select  read-write + no compression for it to work to mount in 9
and probably has to be under 2gb...actually no! that 2gb limit was pertaining to the NDIF legacy format... not read-write .dmg!! so there is no size limit!

easiest way to confirm it is, when u create the disk image u specify the size.. make sure that this size is exactly what u specified
f.e. my disk i chose to make 500mb and i saved it in all available formats by using convert option in disk utility.. and the only one that worked in 9 was exactly 500mb.. (uncompressed)

Offline IIO

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dmg files can be opened by diskcopy 6.5b3 provided they meet a certain specific criteria.

yeah but nobody uses this format.

the  only OS9 software i ever saw in a -dmg was the free tassmann from keyboards - and that did not open. :D

Quote
for exactly that purpose and that purpose alone... to transport the filesystems of software installers over the internet

i always disagreed with apple over that. :)

for installer containing  ... say ... less than aber 2000 files, zipping the installer package opens faster later on the uers 10.4.x machine compared to mounting an image.

actually, i am totally annoyed by mounting images in OSX for some 25 seconds only to find there is one 2 mb file inside.

using images comes handy for distributions like textures though (3 gigabyte of thousands of text files for a programming language). here it saves a lot of time - and allows you to copy only a part of it.

Quote
i really fail to understand where u are coming from with this.. of course it executes code it installs the app?

the point is that it means distributing an executable, executables can bring malware onto a system before they can be scanned by antivirus software. this issue of course applys more to windows, but generally self extracting archives and self mounting images are a taboo.

well, i know, of course the html format or director and flash are much more dangerous in practice. ;)

Quote
so does anything else u can put in a stuffit once u expand it?

once you expand it makes the fine difference. :)

Quote
when creating a shrinkwrap package there is a matrix of different settings

let me put it like this: as soon as you set one of these settings you will no longer be able to authorise a copy of e.g. commercial steinberg or apple products with respective "CD" copy protection schemes.

what the easiest safe solution for creating backup copys of volumes in OS9 is, no idea, i actually use OSX disc utility since 2002, mainly because it does not work to create 1:1 copies with toast 5.x+.



"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

supernova777

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110.. seriously dude.. did u read my post? i direct your attention to this part of this post above:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1223.msg4926#msg4926

this is a directly quoted from the book: "Mac secrets 5th edition"
posted here: http://macos9lives.com/downloads/manuals/MacOs/Mac%20Secrets%205th%20Edit.pdf

i dunno man your credibility is somewhat thin considering u uploaded those files for max msp in a .zip from mac os x!!!
.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files....... it completely destroys the fork + metadata,icon data etc

when you are spouting this stuff about .sit being a better choice i think u are speaking out of habit rather then out of correct information
and its TRUE  that most classic mac os users have used STUFFIT as a standard for many many many years
but id like to propose that that is  only the case because the general public at large did not having a commanding understanding of all these other
formats!!!!! and so they clung to stuffit as a saftey and even in doing so many people still make mistakes and corrupt many files
the biggest of those mistakes is not using macbinary (as we have learned)

this post i made, im not here to push my opinion other people for the hell of it.
i am speaking from having researched it just these past few days
why? because for the longest time i didnt understand the differences between .hqx .bin .sit .smi etc etc and
i feel very confidant in my understanding of these technologies now having done my homework.. and having shared that with the rest of the board.
i am very much confidant in that disk images are even more so the native file format for MAC OS 9 much more so then Stuffit files
u are free to continue to use stuffit files all u want of course im not the boss of you.. but i feel that disk images is a superior choice
especially for speed and not having to wait to decompress+ unstuff files.. when u download a .smi.bin file it decodes from macbinary + mounts all at the same time
and takes seconds and no downtime waiting for unstuff..
more time doing... less time farting around wasting time.






Offline IIO

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Quote
.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files

you could also say OS9 is the last OS one should use for connecting to the internet. i also hate that as much as you do you, but to be compatible with the rest of the world it is sometimes better not to use ones favorite tool.

it is a much work for me to boot into another OS (only to upload 2 mb) as it would be for the other side to boot into OSX to unzip a file.

the point i was making about dmg is that it is useless to know that dmg files using no compression can also be mounted in OS9, because dmg files are usually using compression. try downloading some OSX program off the net and opening them in OS9 and you will see what i mean.

backwards compatibility has limits. i remeber the day i found out that toast 11 images dont open in toast 8 under circumstances ... and recently i had trouble playing an mpeg video made with QT7 in 10.4 with QT7 in 10.5 ... i was kinda shocked ... so then i had to try to remain compatible with the future by using mp4 ...
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

supernova777

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Quote
.zip is the LAST FORMAT you should ever use for mac os 9 files

it is a much work for me to boot into another OS (only to upload 2 mb) as it would be for the other side to boot into OSX to unzip a file.

the point i was making about dmg is that it is useless to know that dmg files using no compression can also be mounted in OS9, because dmg files are usually using compression. try downloading some OSX program off the net and opening them in OS9 and you will see what i mean.

i was referring to this info with the intented use of creating + packaging the files myself,  not randomly finding things online..
yes 80% of hte time if u find a .dmg file online it will be using compression and will unmountable..... but this isnt the purpose that im talking about
and why would u want to open a mac os x program in mac os 9? in most cases this would be useless.

im talking about moving my *OWN FILES* from os9 to osx and vice versa.. SAFELY..
like project files.. or photshop documents or any other META DATA RICH documents ..
its possible to move these files between X + 9 withotu fucking up + corrupting them using these methods!
re: the info above pasted by diehard.. this was to highlight the fact that the .sit stuffit format wasnt Allways compatible!
it was an evolving format with slight differences that caused incompatibilities resulting in corrupted files and files that only
extract properly with certain stuffit expander versions!!!!!!

for moving your own projects to mac os x and back to 9 the perfect scenario is using a READ-WRITE disk image (.img)

re: rebooting to zip/unzup...
again i think u didnt really read what i wrote because i exposed the fact here that u can use NDIF based ".img" file format and it works 100%
WITH COMPRESSION on both MAC OS 9 + MAC OS X!!!
try to find an apple official update or release that is posted online using .sit or .zip
u will not find such a document (officially) because that is NOT what they adhered to or allowed.. they had their own format for such things
this is a fact that i remember qquite strongly because i was alwasy wondering hwo do they create these other format types of files???
that i did not know the complete details about

so u dont even need to reboot from x to 9 or 9 to x
thats the whole point of my post... to show that this format is supported on both if u make these files in the right configuration
there are probably many apps or scripting methods to be able to instruct diskutility or diskcopy to create .img
in X one of the apps u can use is this dropDMG program i posted earlier
in 9 u just drag a folder to disk copy!

the .img file created is supported on both mac os 9 +  osx natively!!!!!!!
.dmg with no compression is mountable perfectly in mac os 9 with disk copy 6.5 (as the above test proved)
.img NDIF any format will be compatible without disk utility 6.5 i believe
i will test this now to make 100% sure



« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 05:26:27 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Creating .img Disk Images in OS X
http://arcticmac.home.comcast.net/~arcticmac/tutorials/dimages.html  8)

i had some problems with the method outlined in this above site according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_Copy
disk copy was indeed part of mac os x in 10.0, 10.1 + 10.2 and was dropped/incorporate with disk utility i guess after 10.3

instead i used dropDMG to create NDIF .img and it worked but i encountered a strange bug where the files were  mounted and viewable in terminal under /Volumes  but they didnt appear on my desktop graphically! but they did mount..
and on mac os9 they mounted normally as though they were created normally in mac os 9!

according to http://www.quora.com/OS-X/How-can-one-create-a-IMG-file-on-Mac
Quote
IMG is for Mac OS 9. There's no other reason to use IMG these days.
Code: [Select]
hdiutil convert (dmgfilename).dmg -format Rdxx -o (imgfilename).imgthis code will convert a .dmg to a .img
so the capability is there its just not that accessible
unless u use DropDMG

« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 05:26:07 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline DieHard

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Chris,
Thanks for the great reference info. and testing, it supports the notes on my cheat sheet which I wrote over 8 years ago...

Quote
Do NOT add compression and make all DMG files R/W..

I didn't remember why I wrote that but, now I kinda remember testing some stuff I was moving back and forth between X and 9...

I also found this note...

Quote
Do not use Toast 5 to image original audio App CDs... it does not copy hidden /unsed blocks like Toast 4.1 does

So I would say that the only thing I can add (to all this great research you have done) is that Toast 4.1 is still the best utility to image all original Audio Application and Plugin CDs... I verified this many times... simply make a Cubase VST 5 CD image using any other version of Toast (even in X) or Disk Utility, and it will not authorize the install.


Offline Jakl

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Or even use CD-Copy to copy the CD. It is probably the best CD imager for the older Mac.
I think development stopped around toast 4 if I recall correctly - so it used the toast 4 extension.
But the toast 5 extension does work with it as well - even some dvd's with this later extension.

I think macintosh garden has the app.




« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:52:19 PM by Jakl »

Offline IIO

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and why would u want to open a mac os x program in mac os 9? in most cases this would be useless.

it is faster. :)
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

supernova777

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So I would say that the only thing I can add (to all this great research you have done) is that Toast 4.1 is still the best utility to image all original Audio Application and Plugin CDs... I verified this many times... simply make a Cubase VST 5 CD image using any other version of Toast (even in X) or Disk Utility, and it will not authorize the install.

probably because they were trying to make it work faster
at the time cd burner speed was a BIG BIG issue!
for a "burning software" it was be #1 or bust

supernova777

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directly quoting the DropDMG manual:
http://c-command.com/dropdmg/manual-ah/format
Quote
Legacy NDIF Disk ImageNDIF (.img) disk images are compatible with System 7, Mac OS 8–9, and Mac OS X. These can be useful for exchanging files with legacy Macs or for use with emulators such as Sheepshaver and Basilisk. NDIF disk image files use resource forks, so some care must be taken in transferring them over the Internet. They are also limited to 2 GB of logical size.

sooo if you are packaging os indepedant files.. project files, media files, documentation, midi files, samples, whatever files u have.. we have 2 easy options requiring little 3rd party software:

1)SIMPLY CREATING A .IMG READ/WRITE ON MAC OS 9 USING ANY VERSION OF DISK COPY
2)SIMPLY CREATING A .DMG READ/WRITE /w NO COMPRESSION ON MAC OS X USING DISK UTILITY

the resulting mountable disk image can be used on both X + 9 **INTERCHANGABLY** back + forth.
i think the .dmg file will be stuck to a certain size specified at creation time tho
whereas the .img file can be modifiable and grow its custom size?
will have to test

« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 05:49:31 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline coachla

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If this relates at all:

I use Toast 5 in OS9 to open DMG files from Tiger.  I just opened a .cdr image with Toast,  I think made with Disk Utility in OSX. I might have made the DMGs with Drop DMG app. SuperDuper's sparse image format can't be opened by Toast 5 in OS9....  sometimes I open DMGs in Tiger and  mount them over network.

SuperDuper will preserve NI authorizations in OSX but not Kontakt 1.5/Reaktor 4 in  either 9 or X.

SoundDiver authorizations will not survive cloning, but DP will at least in X.

supernova777

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.bin macbinary files can be created on osx using terminal and typing:

"macbinary encode -v filenameToEncode.ext"

it will create filenameToEncode.ext.bin


Offline it0uchpods

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In OS 9, I just mount the image with Toast Titanium 5 (see MacintoshGarden) and then I can work with images fine. In OS X, they mount with DiskImageMounter
Josh

Offline macStuff

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the entire point of this post was to urge the use of .img apple disk image files (NDIF)
BECAUSE they are compatible on all versions of OSX + almost all flavours of classic Mac OS (7.x, 8.x, 9.x)

newer INTEL versions of OSX require you to convert the .img to a .dmg in disk utility, but as long as u do this
they are still 100% compatible but the PPC versions of OSX (up to 10.5) i believe can still natively mount .img files

the whole point being to reduce and end the possibility of STUFFIT + UNARCHIVER *ERRORS* that occur
frequently when one opens a file on a different  machine/os combination - incompatibilities arise in stuffit file formats
and certain file metadata is lost (such as correct title/names or dates) when the files are unarchived improperly
(as such is often the case when mac files are put inside a .zip file and unzipped on diff computer)