keyspan sx serial cards

[supernova777]

i guess im a lucky s.o.b then 

did u do any midi timing tests?  (accuracy of capture/playback midi)
logic? cubase?

[Syntho]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motu-Midi-Express-XT-8x8-Serial-Port-Interface-MIDI-Interface-/271546005656?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item3f39673898


They made a USB version of this too.

[supernova777]

nice i wish mine used 120v power like that

[coachla]

Are you up and running, Syntho?

[Syntho]

Going into the studio in a few. If OMS and FreeMidi play together well I'm set. I'll report back in a bit.

[Syntho]

It seems to be working fine with FreeMidi in the Use OMS setting. It was those Unitors for sure. Gonna pick up a Studio 5 

There were a couple of things I'm wondering about like which speed of the serial ports to pick (.5mhz, 1mhz, 1X etc). That disappears when using FreeMidi in the OMS mode though. There's also the "Use Apple SerialDMA Driver when available" option in OMS. Other than that, I'm good.

PS: I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really need a Unisyn manual!

[coachla]

If using only OMS with a Studio 5, FAST at least 4 times up to 8 times.... see the manual for minute details. Serial DMA-YES... I would definitely have OMS run the show. If necessary set up your XT on a separate Freemidi serial port as described...simpler and you already have the XT. Networked MTPs will never be totally reliable. Maybe someone else here can add a more positive view of Freemidi. I've never been a fan of it. Always Type errors and who knows what.....

[supernova777]

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=79332

The *best* MIDI solution for *all* PCI Macs is to use MegaWolf Romulus PCI cards with FreeMIDI 1.38 in OMS Emulation mode.

just reading this thread whre this guys claiming that freemidi is superior in timing to OMS
hes talking of the megawolf pci card but i think its safe to say the keyspan is an equivelant
hes talkin about .5ms of jitter with the pci serial + freemidi combo being the best midi timing possible

ok jsut realized its the "hinton instruments" guy. i posted info frm his site before

http://web.archive.org/web/20030605153838/http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/mac/macmidi.html

[coachla]

The person who turned me toward the MDD and the keyspan ran only DP and Freemidi and hated OMS. OMS Emulation is different than slaving to OMS. It's been so long since I monkeyed with all that. Whatever you can get working reliably is the way to go.... I think I lacked the necessary magic wand...

[Syntho]

What about those mhz settings in FreeMidi? They disappear when making FreeMidi use OMS like I said though.

I don't think we're gonna need anything but a Keyspan. It seems good enough.

The Studio 5 can be 4 to 8 times faster? I'm gonna download the manual and take a look. There are a few on Ebay but I'm gonna wait a few days and see if I can score one for under $50.

[Syntho]

Oh I see, there's the Speed setting in OMS and it goes up to 8x. That's the same thing as the mhz setting in FreeMidi I think.

Hey coachla, aren't you shooting out some MTC with your multiple G4 setup? I'm going to have some MTC being generated from an external source into the Studio 5 on almost a daily basis. The manual says that you should always use a dual port config to ensure accurate midi timing when you've got some SMPTE going, but I'm using MTC. It probably applies to MTC too. I'm wondering what the setup would be like to get the studio 5 to shoot out MTC on its B port > modem keyspan port, and shoot out midi messages on its A port > printer keyspan port.

[coachla]

If it's coming in via a midi cable then it will merge with all other midi data. Another reason to use your XT on the second serial port...bring it in that way to Logic. I'm not using any time code.

[Syntho]

I won't need to use the XT at all if I've got the Studio 5 though, 15 ports is enough for both of my synth racks. I wonder about that dual port config the Studio 5 manual talked about for better SMPTE timing... I'll still hang onto the XT though, I use it all the time with my ancient Windows XP laptop and various editors that aren't available on Mac. I'll see what the results are like with MTC when I get it, and if it's not too good I'll use the XT for MTC.

Hey Chris, did you know that the XT has a "PC - Mac" switch on the front of it? I had both my XP laptop and my G4 both running editors with the XT. All I have to do is press the PC/Mac switch and it switches between the parallel port and serial port instantaneously.

[supernova777]

Hey Chris, did you know that the XT has a "PC - Mac" switch on the front of it? I had both my XP laptop and my G4 both running editors with the XT. All I have to do is press the PC/Mac switch and it switches between the parallel port and serial port instantaneously.

i have the MTP AV (non usb) and its got a similar mac/pc button toggle on it;)

[Syntho]

I tried transmitting a full bank of patches to one of my synths and it gives an error. I tinkered around with Sounddiver, disabling OMS and trying to use the modem/printer ports on the keyspan. I don't think that works as coachla has commented, but correct me if I'm wrong. Sounddiver give a message saying (paraphrasing), "OS9.x can't transfer long midi messages very well over the serial ports. Use an older Mac OS or a USB interface".

I hooked up my Unitors again and the problem disappeared.

Have you had any trouble with this coachla?

[supernova777]

did u try just with freemidi instead of oms?

[Syntho]

Sounddiver won't work with FreeMidi alone. This is actually multiple pieces of software giving the same error though. It's either the serial ports' speed, or for some reason the XT doesn't like those messages. Oddly enough, the XT works perfectly fine performing the same function on the Windows versions of the software (but it's using the parallel port in that case).

I'm going to wait until I've got a Studio 5. I can tweak the speed on it so maybe that'll help.

[coachla]

Once again.... MIDI with Keyspan has to use OMS, or Freemidi. It has to emulate real ports. I would imagine you already know you Mac is the  bottleneck. A Studio 5 can transmit out to hardware at 8x easily, but the handshake or dump receives might have to be 2x or less. Don't run the XT in fast mode then. You must check the boxes "emulate modem port, or Printer port" in the Key span manager. Set up a totally blank Free MIDI setup with no active ports and 'use OMS'.

[supernova777]

It's either the serial ports' speed, or for some reason the XT doesn't like those messages.

this soudns familiar i rememember readign something about this
search keyword FIFO

[coachla]

After not using Unisyn for some time, I reinstalled it and an onslaught of type 2 or 3 and 11 alerts came. Finally got it normalized, seems smooth set up as I described using OMS.

[Syntho]

I don't believe there's a way to run the XT in Fast mode when using OMS. In FreeMidi you can select different interface speeds I'm sure, but I'm not finding that in the OMS setup or even the MOTU Clockworks setup. I only found those settings in FreeMidi itself which I'm not using for Sounddiver/OMS. From reading the Studio 5 manual, it looks like you can actually change the speed of it from OMS. Maybe OMS doesn't support those speed settings for non-Opcode interfaces.

I'm trying to remember if I ever had trouble with this on my PC... I think I did and I resolved it, but I could be wrong. Let me do some more investigation and I'll report back.

[Syntho]

"There is a midi transmission problem on the Printer port" - that's what OMS gives me when doing a bank dump. It looks like you can double click your interface in OMS and set up speed settings, at least with an older version of OMS and a MTP, but double clicking my XT just gives me "Midi Express XT, Printer Port".

I've got to get that damn Studio 5 soon. The parallel port on the XT works fine when xferring banks. I bet the Studio 5 will resolve all of this.

[coachla]

It's different with OMS and Freemidi.

With Motu gear speed settings in Freemidi tell Freemidi to comply but not the interface. Likewise in OMS. One has to physically through menus set the interface speed independently if that option is there. The two have to agree.

In the case of the Studio 5, it's like you said, as there is no manual switch on the interface itself as with the Studio 4. I wonder if the OMS menus are actually regulating both ends of the Studio 5's communication. But as you refer to changing the MTP's speed,  that only changes OMS's end. You still have to physically  change the MTP from the MTP itself in the global hardware settings.

Very different...Motu interfaces that I've had cannot change speed modes remotely. So your XT is like my older MidiExpress. There is no way to choose fast mode on the XT itself. Then you have to set Freemidi to 1X, otherwise major communication problems, if any communication at all... Technically speaking, I've heard it said that, actually, the Studio 5 is always in fast mode.

[supernova777]

my brain is hurting trying to remember but i think the information or clue to the info u need is documented re: the megawolf cards and having to run some software to change the speed rate or something ugh

http://web.archive.org/web/20030707123756/http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/mac/fm_setup.html
try here

nah thats not it. something i read - its really vague because i dint actually read it.. lol
but it was about installing an extension or something to do with the fifo speed of the pci serial ports
ughsorry i cant remember

[supernova777]

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/there-midi-transmission-problem-printer-port/
http://www.proaudiosupport.com/a33800/midi-transmission-problem-printer.html

this page referes to the possibility of a physical problem (with your wires)

quick googlesearch also returns this page:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar00/articles/miditime.htm

[supernova777]

http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/sysex480
did u ever try this thijng syntho?

[Syntho]

That's really of no use since this is probably a hardware-related thing. I'll try again when my Studio 5 gets here.

[supernova777]

That's really of no use since this is probably a hardware-related thing. I'll try again when my Studio 5 gets here.

i take it thats a no;)

[Syntho]

OK, good news. The KeySpan is completely fine, it's the Express XT that's giving issues. You can't double click on it and change the speed in OMS, and FreeMidi/Clockworks has an option to change it but it never saves the configuration for some reason.

I just hooked up my Unitor via serial and it's transferring completely fine. I imagine the Studio 5 will do the same, it's being delivered tomorrow.

The Express XT happens to work completely fine with the parallel port, but its serial ports seem to have trouble... I guess those things were programmed more with parallel ports in mind than serial. I'll still hang onto it for a backup.

[supernova777]

OK, good news. The KeySpan is completely fine, it's the Express XT that's giving issues. You can't double click on it and change the speed in OMS, and FreeMidi/Clockworks has an option to change it but it never saves the configuration for some reason.

I just hooked up my Unitor via serial and it's transferring completely fine. I imagine the Studio 5 will do the same, it's being delivered tomorrow.

The Express XT happens to work completely fine with the parallel port, but its serial ports seem to have trouble... I guess those things were programmed more with parallel ports in mind than serial. I'll still hang onto it for a backup.

maybe its damaged..?
or doesnt support this speed that u require for the sysex bank dump

[Syntho]

VERDICT:

The studio 5 rules 

[supernova777]

VERDICT:

The studio 5 rules 

damn u got it already? thats fast.
yeah i like my opcode 128x so far..
i kind of think for midi opcode knows best considering they wrote oms.
and everything requires oms.

[Syntho]

I'm running a dual port setup. The manual says that if you need more 'midi throughput' to use a dual port configuration but it doesn't explain how it does this. It does say that it distributes midi information 'equitably' on both ports, whatever they mean by that. OMS shows that it's connected to both the modem and printer ports (it has a / indicating it) but I don't see an area where you can actually assign different midi inputs/outputs to the A and B serial ports. Maybe the Studio 5 utilizes both of these automatically or something?

The manual also states that any timecode the Studio 5 generates is sent on the B port, while midi information is sent on the A port. It says generates though, so I'm not sure if that includes incoming MTC.

If this were 1997 all I'd have to do is make a phone call to figure this out 

[supernova777]

yea sure or if gibson guitars didnt kill opcode 

[coachla]

Syntho... Glad to hear the news! No you can't like with the MTP console and Motu gear. But it's so robust, there isn't any need to. All incoming midi is through the A port. Are you receiving SMPTE IN or MTC over midi cable? Run it full throttle on one port and see if it handles that.

Get another if you can....You can never have too many BLB's (Blinking Light Boxes)!

[Syntho]

I'm going to have incoming MTC for sure. The generated/converted audio SMPTE to MTC I'm sure would be sent on the B port, but plain MTC itself from a midi cable I'm not sure about. It says it distributes the information 'equitably' on both ports, but also that the midi information is sent on the A port. Almost contradicting info... maybe it means it SENDS information to the Studio 5 on both ports, but that the incoming stuff is always on the A port (besides SMPTE)?

I need to test this with a Beige G3 or lower with actual modem/printer ports and Logic 4 with a cabled physical input object. I'll have a 9600 someday so I guess I'll test when that time comes.

[coachla]

If it's not generated by the Studio 5 data comes in via the A port, however the manual does not specify the distribution of the outgoing messages which if divided between the serial ports would significantly reduce traffic, given that your incoming MTC as well as sysex receives are added to the A port's overall data flow. Let us know if you compare the configurations with differing results please.

Logic 4 even with a keyspan and OMS has discreet inputs. No problems with Logic 4 and that Sum-input-only phenomena on my MDD. But you're right, because OMS preferences can only allocate to the first 8 M ports on the physical input object, you can't test it on the MDD. Without OMS means using MTP mode which may not be as efficient to compare accurately, if in fact you can actually get Logic 4 communication preferences to address an MTP on multiple ports. A big question mark on that one....

[Syntho]

Hey Coachla, I just did some testing. I don't remember all that was said but here's my findings on a 9600 with an old version of Logic using a Studio 5:

When using OMS, you're stuck with using nothing but the Sum part of the physical input object. In order for me to get the individual ports working, I have to disable OMS and click 'Modem' and/or 'Printer' in the Logic Communication preference screen. The Sum still works then, and as soon as I cable an individual port to something else, that port is taken off of the sum and is only coming through its actual port.

I think another step I had to do to get that working was to go into OMS and the Studio 5 setup screen and set up the 'generic midi interface' settings. Haven't tried without it but that's what I found.

I was hoping that somehow I could have OMS active and use the Sum, but also be able to break the connection for individual ports when I need to. That doesn't seem to work with OMS enabled unless there's a step I'm missing.

[supernova777]

keyspan card still working great?

[Syntho]

Of course.

I need coachla to come back and fill me in on the issue with the physical object...

[supernova777]

just a note to say that ive updated the original post in this thread to include the manual for the keyspan sx pro in pdf format
the manual makes reference to mac os x 10.1 so it is probably from the time that this was the current mac os x version

im also adding the "keyspan manager" which is to be added to the system folder (not sure if its compressed or what?)
theres a good chance this file is screwed from being uploaded improperly.. syntho did u have the sx pro manager system folder extension for the keyspan card?

[Syntho]

I posted the driver on the last page, it's there. KeyspanSXProV20.sit.bin

[supernova777]

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/4633/keyspan-sx-pro
What's New
Version 2.0 adds the following:
    Fixes issue with sleep on certain Macs

[supernova777]

http://www.cnet.com/news/keyspan-sx-pro-software-update-is-available/

http://web.archive.org/web/20060102181013/http://www.keyspan.com/products/sxpro/downloads/

this seems to lead back to the same file

ok this definately has the manager!!!
it has options for editing + fine tuning the speed of the fifo chip
and supports multiple cards aswell!!

options for:
card
port #
port name
recive fifo [8,16,56,60]
default buffer size
TX acknowledge
double baud rate
emulate printer port
epson support
and some kind of stats  + test button
with a small feedback window

[DaCat]

Does anyone know of any serial cards either PCI or USB that work in both OS9 & OSX for MIDI? I saw that Keyspan announced a driver for OSX but my understanding is it doesn't handle MIDI, I'm wondering if any of the USB ones do.

The other workaround I'm wondering, say if using an Opcode Studio 5LX, could one use two Macs, one in OS9 & the other in OSX and either using pass thru or synchronizing both computers, run the MIDI from the OSX computer while the OS9 one handles routing & maybe static librarian preset changes?

My basic setup is a G4 Quicksilver DP running Opcode SVP & Galaxy using a MOTU 2408MK3, while I want to experiment with MOTU DP 5 in Leopard on my 2008 MBP, and possibly at other times the MBP will be in Mavericks using current software.

The Studio 5LX seems ideal for running MIDI but then there's the challenge when working from the laptop in some relatively current OS.

Would a practical solution be a modern USB MIDI interface that would also work in OS9 and with Opcode SVP? My head is spinning a bit following this subject in several forums, maybe there's issues for SVP & Galaxy using current USB interfaces? I also notice Opcode had some MIDIport USB interfaces likely for USB 1 so would this work in modern Macs? Considering extension/driver issues it might be too much to expect a MIDI interface that could function across OS9 to Mavericks.

The snail workaround is simply re-patch all the MIDI cables with two dedicated interfaces while I suppose one could rig up a complex matrix to get around this but too many boxes with in/outs might start lagging. I must be getting lazy because I only have about a half dozen MIDI pieces at present.

Seeing that there's some success with the Keyspan in the MDD gives me reassurance this would be good for my Quicksilver, I'm thinking of upgrading to the MDD but have seen other Opcode users claim older computers are more stable, while I went with the Quicksilver thinking it was closer to the G3s, I also have my original G4 Yikes! that is essentially a G3 with G4 processor so that could be an alternative if there's any stability issues. They were referring to Vision/SVP re stability so maybe that's not an issue with MOTU or Pro Tools setups, but I did some basic cassette transfers into SVP on this Quicksilver & everything seemed to function OK.

My "fetish" area is seeing how maxed out a G4 could go running Opcode SVP, I currently use a Seritek PCI E-SATA card and it screams with an external SATA drive, also allows quick reboots to OSX partitions for using Leopard for Internet downloads, etc..

I also wonder if newer USB interfaces have better timing than serial versions? I don't need a lot of MIDI in/outs at present but could use for future expansion.

[supernova777]

anyone have one of these for sale.. they were on ebay for awhile but the supply seems to have dried up

[Syntho]

I have only one copy. I don't have an actual use for it, but I think I need to hang onto it just in case. It's sitting in my broken down MDD.

[supernova777]

i ended up buying a Grapper+ SCSI/Serial card from OrangeMicro for 12$ on ebay - its on its way to diehards place now lol



hope it works as well as a keyspan or a megawolf

with this card ill be able to connect both a sampler via SCSI db-25 + my motu or opcode midi interfaces
kinda sucks that on previous macs these scsi + serial ports came built in!!!! 
its wierd because it says it requires system 7.5 but shows a pic of a g3 b+W on the box
which cant run anything lower then 8.5.1 or 8.6

[Enabler]

Once these drivers are installed do the built-in MIDI drivers in Logic see the serial port?
Meaning no need for OMS or FreeMIDI or MIDI Manager?

Can anyone confirm?

[Syntho]

Once these drivers are installed do the built-in MIDI drivers in Logic see the serial port?
Meaning no need for OMS or FreeMIDI or MIDI Manager?

Can anyone confirm?

IIRC, you can use either. I don't have a G4 to test at the moment, mine went kaput.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KeySpan-Sx-Pro-SXPRO-A2-4-Port-Serial-PCI-Card-Mac-G4-PCI-PowerMac-Power-Mac-/161931328251?hash=item25b3dbfafb:g:NUEAAOSw5IJWgXgB

I'm glad I bought mine when I did 

[Enabler]

Just wanted to chime back in on these keyspan SX Pro cards and Logic.
I finally got around and purchased one on Ebay to test with Logic Platninum.

The Bad news is that Logic's built in MIDI drivers do NOT work with these cards
I tested both Logic 3.7.2 & 4.8.1 using an Opcode Studio 4 Midi interface and a generic 1x1
Serial Interface and in both test Logic would not see the interfaces and reported errors.

There may be a work around using Logic in OMS mode but I like to avoid that all together

If anyone has any suggestions let me know
BTW Logic works perfectly with the Stealth Serial Port

[teroyk]

Have anybody make Keyspan to work with OMS without MOTU hardware? I tested it with Midiman MacMan (its simple serial to Midi I/O) and it worked with Freemidi, but no with OMS Setup. Freemidi 1.38 has OMS emulation, but it's not help me because my another PCI-sound card has only OMS drivers and I think that I cannot use OMS-drivers with Freemidi even if put OMS emulation on..or is there someway use both together and route between them?

Some infromations I find about Freemidi version from Motus website from 2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000304004840/http://www1.motu.com/english/download/autodown/action.lasso?-database=dldb&-layout=main&-response=searchresults.html&-op=eq&product=FreeMIDI&&-maxRecords=all&-sortfield=version&-sortorder=descending&-search

Has anybody that fm14_cw106.sit.hqx-file? Page says "We recommend downloading these files if you have a serial adapter like the Megawolf, Keyspan, Stealth or Griffin Technology card."

[Metrophage]

Here is ClockWorks 1.0.7, which should be the same idea, and should still work with FreeMIDI 1.4.x. I have never used the MOTU MIDI drivers, but I should try them sometime.

[macStuff]

I'll probably grab a Keyspan, I can't find a G4port or Stealth. I see the extensions were posted so I hope that's all I need to get it working.

I have an older MOTU Midi Express XT that would be nice to get up and running. As long as it's compatible with FreeMidi I'm good.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3623.0
http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=3403.0

[Syn-Fi]

OS9 drivers

The attached driver, right at the top of this thread did not work for me. However, i found v2.0 and that worked and it has an installer as opposed to drag/drop to system.

The driver at the top stated i had a newer card

No drivers/extensions req'd for osx.

[Syn-Fi]

hi,
i have the Sxpro card but my modem emulation tick box, in the control panel for the sxpro is always hashed out. 

Also with my Studio 5LX it only works with a relative short din cable.    It is not even detected by a cable of 3M.

[GaryN]

The tick box grayed out usually means either you have Appletalk on, or you have a modem card installed and active by being selected in the TCP/IP panel or similar.

As for the cable, your 3M cable is probably NOT a Mac "crossover" wiring but rather a "straight-thru". Crossover cables are wired with the Tx and Rx lines "crossed over" to allow two-way communication. The problem with all of these cables is for reasons known ONLY to the manufacturers, NONE of them has ever though it necessary to mark the damn things in any way to indicate which type they are. Go figure.

Syntho spelled it out HERE: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2656.msg15948.html#msg15948

[w3sl33]

I use a key span sx pro in an MDD. previously in a quicksilver. HANDS DOWN the best timing of any serial card or port. Ive tried stealth and griffin and they don't compare. I use smpte from mpc as well as mtc a lot. Perfect sync every time. I use OMS but free midi works well especially in emulation. took a while to set this up. I have a studio 5LX and 3 mtp av. 2 usb and 1 serial only. I network the usb mtp with the serial for more ports. 5LX is tight but so is the mtp av. The key span pro is the key to great timing and the least jitter. I even get it to work now when I dual boot in OS X with the beta plug in that is available online from stealth. BEST timing is key span pro with either mtp av or studio 5LX. It was so excellent I sacrificed a farm card slot.

[Architecture]

I use a key span sx pro in an MDD. previously in a quicksilver. HANDS DOWN the best timing of any serial card or port. Ive tried stealth and griffin and they don't compare. I use smpte from mpc as well as mtc a lot. Perfect sync every time. I use OMS but free midi works well especially in emulation. took a while to set this up. I have a studio 5LX and 3 mtp av. 2 usb and 1 serial only. I network the usb mtp with the serial for more ports. 5LX is tight but so is the mtp av. The key span pro is the key to great timing and the least jitter. I even get it to work now when I dual boot in OS X with the beta plug in that is available online from stealth. BEST timing is key span pro with either mtp av or studio 5LX. It was so excellent I sacrificed a farm card slot.

What settings do you use for your SXPRO card? I have one and mine is stuck running at 9600 baud when OMS is engaged.

[teroyk]

I use OMS but free midi works well especially in emulation. took a while to set this up.

I only get keyspan work with Free Midi, how you setup it work with OMS?

[GaryN]

I only get keyspan work with Free Midi, how you setup it work with OMS?

The same way you get it to run in FreeMIDI.
You run the "OMS Setup" app and the card is detected.

[teroyk]

I only get keyspan work with Free Midi, how you setup it work with OMS?

The same way you get it to run in FreeMIDI.
You run the "OMS Setup" app and the card is detected.

I tried half a day some years ago and only success with FreeMidi..maybe I have to try again...
Damm, I just week ago ordered very expensive Megawolf card for replace that Keyspan.

[coachla]

Though it is necessary to open the Keyspan Manager control panel and set the first port to "emulate printer port" and the second port to "emulate modem port." Did you do that? OMS will see them.  Also in OMS setup you have to check modem and printer for the installer to look there.


I know in Freemidi all 4 ports appear in Freemidi Setup, but only the first and second are functional.